PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 1050, 2 May 1865, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Mokjdat, May Ist. The Speakjbb took the chair at two o'clock. THE COMMISSION ON LANDS. Mr BHODIE asked the Provincial Secretary—" When the Report of the Commission on Lands is likely to be laid on the table of the Council ?" The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Chairman of the Commission had written to him to say that they had been waiting for further information before completing the Report, but he hoped to be able to lay the Report on the table during the week. LANDS WITHDRAWN FROM SALE IN TILE TOAPEKA DISTRICT. Mr MOUAT asked the Provincial Secrectary—" Ist. Why certain lands advertised for s?le in the Tuapeka District were suddenly withdrawn from sale, without previous notice having been given ? 2nd. Whether, in the event of its being found that the sudden withdrawal of the said lands from sale was caused by the carelessness or neglect of any official, the Government will institute an inquiry, and if necessary dismiss the offending officer?" The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY, with reference to the first question, said that, so far as he could learn, the lands had not been withdrawn from sale absolutely—the settlement of the applications had simply been postponed. It must be admitted that there was blame somewhere, but the inquiry as to where the blame Jay was a much more difficult matter. The land, which was advertised lor sale, was found to be held by the G-overnment, as licensees of two runs, and that part of them had been sublet. The Government found that they could not at once terminate their connection with the Waste Land Board ; and also with the sub-licensees. It was a complicated matter at present, but the Government had given instructions to terminate the subleases as sooa as possible, so that without further delay the land applied for might be granted. Another difficulty was that a person had come forward who said lie held an agricultural lease over a portion of this land. As to the latter part of the motion, he would say that if the Government found out the official who was to blame in the matter, he would certainly be dismissed, but he found that there was such an amount of shifting of blame from one shoulder to another, that he doubted if one shoulder could be found broad enough to support it. FEES AND FINKS UNDER THE DISEASED CATTLE ORDINANCE. Mr BURNS moved, " That there be laid on the table of this House, a return showing the amount of fees and fines under the "Diseased Cattle Ordinance" for the last four quarters respectively, ending the 31st March, 1865, and how disposed of." Mr THOMSON seconded the motion. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said the returns would be laid on the table on an early day, perhaps to-morrow. The motion was agreed to. KKI'ORTS ON IMUVATK i\KTITIONS. Mr WALKER moved—" That Interim Report No. 1 (Andrew Thompson), from the Select Cdmmittcc on Private Petitions, be adopted." The petitioner applied for compensation for the loss of cattle by pleuro-pneumonia. The Committee had examined the matter contained in the petition, and they found that it was not customary for the Government to compensate parties whose cattle died from pleuro-pneumonia, and they recommended that the prayer of the: petition be rejected. The motion was affirmed. Mr WALKER moved—" That Interim Report No. 2 (11. R. Steavenson), from the Select Committee on Private Petitions, be adopted." On this petition the Committee reported that the petitioner was entitled to some compensation from the Government. The petitioner had been in the Government employ, and was discharged, lie sued the Superintendent in the Supreme Court, when a verdict was agreed to for the plaintiff in the amount of .flO6 13s -Id, subject to a law point reserved —that the Superintendent could not be sued without one month's notice. On this ground the judgment was set aside, and the plaintiff nonsuited. The matter was referred to the Provincial Solicitor, who corroborated the statements contained in the petition, and the committee recommended the Council to take an equitable view of the matter, and in order to stay further litigation to pay the petitioner £IGG 13s 4d, being four months' salary at the rate of «00 per annum. Mr DYER seconded the motion. Mr CLAPCOTT thought it was extraordinary that the Provincial Solicitor should advise one Government one way and another Government another way. The action taken by the late Government was the action of the Provincial Solicitor, and he was at a loss to understand how that gcntlemin could reconcile the opinion which he now seemed to hold with that which he held when the late Government was in office. He should like, before adopting the recommendation of the Committee, "to know upon what grounds the Provincial Solicitor had thought proper to change, or at all events, to a very great extent to modify bis opiuion. Mr. J. CARGILL would not agree wilh the recommendation of the Committee. After a short discussion, the resolution wa3 carried. PAPERS. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER laid on the table returns regarding supplemental roads ; the report of the Railway Engineer with reference to the survey of the proposed railway to the Clutha, made in accordance with the resolutions of the last session of Council ; reports and estimates in connection with the said railway, shewing the cost of construction, and the'estimated returns from the same. PETITIONS. Mr BASTINGS presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Dunedin, praying that the hoarding round the Cargill Monument should be removed, as it had j become a nuisance. The petition was received.

THK ASSJjSSMKKT CLAUSE OF TUB KDUCATION ORDINANCE.

Mr MACANDREW moved—"That whereas the operation throughout the Province of the Assessment Clause of the Education Ordinance has led to much strife and dissension, detrimental to the cause of education; and whereas the expense of collecting local rates has been found to be altogether disproportionate to the amount required to be raised; this Council is of opinion that it is expedient forthwith to repeal the said Assessment Clause. The Council is further of opinion that the moiety of the teachers' salary heretofore paid by the Government shall henceforth be unconditional of any guarantee of the payment of a like sum on the part of the District School Committee, and that the Government Grant towards each school shall be specially voted, and appear on the Estimates as such." He said he ought perhaps to apologise for taking upon himself to introduce this matter, seeing that the .subject of education had hitherto been regarded as coming within the special province of the Executive Government to deal with. lie trusted, however, the House would treat the matter purely on its merits, irrespective of its having been introduced by a private member. No doubt honorable members were aware that a strong feeling prevailed in those districts wherein the tax had been enforced, a feeling of dissatisfaction which would have manifested itself by petitions to this Council, had the people not taken it for granted that the subject would have been spontaneously dealt with by their representatives. He admitted that the working of the Ordinance generally, where the assessment had not been enforced, had been most satisfactory, and he should not attempt to disturb it, but for the fact that disunion and discord was being created where peace and harmony were wont to prevail, and that practically a minority was frequently found to overbear the majority—an anomaly, no doubt—but still such was the fact, under the practical working of the clause. Personally, he had always been opposed to this clause In the district which he had the honor to represent, a rate was now being enforced contrary to the wishes and in spite of the remonstrance of nineteen - twentieths of the ratepayers, and if he might use a figurative expression, at the point of the bayonet. He had been told the other day that 140 summonses had been issued, and in a few days lie supposed there would be execution on the goods and chattels of nearly every man in the place. He did not stop to enquire who was right or who was wrong; all he maintained was, that it was a state of matters much to be deplored, lie could point to another case in which the rate was enforced against the will of three-fourths of the ratepayers in the district; in fact, that proprietors were physically debarred from getting any benefit from the school. lie could advert to an instance in which, in order to raise £7 to cover a deficiency in the teacher's salary, it was proposed to levy a rate. The cost of making up the assessment roll, and collecting the amount, it was found, would amount to one thousand per cent of the sum required. The people held indignation meetings, and resolved that the school should be shut up rather than that they should be exposed to a repetition of what was termed legal robbery. It was only after personal exertion on the part of himself, that the sum was received by voluntary contributions, and the school reopened. A general feeling prevailed that in populous districts, the schools ou^ht to be self-supporting. He held that with a Government grant of £.50 to £100, a free house and glebe, with the school full, ought to suffice to support the school without taxing those who had no children, or who chose to send them elsewhere. He knew of several families in the ccuntry who sent their children to Dunedin, and who felt it a great hardship to be compelled to educate their neighbors' children as well. If education was to be compulsory at all, let it be universal, by means of a poll tax; or, what amounts to the same thing, let it be paid as it was before, out of the general revenue of the Province. His belief was that it was the duty of the State to provide the mear.s of education for all its children under any circumstances, but especially in a country situate like New Zealand, in which the sovereign power was wholly in the hands of the people. If they neglected to provide the means of education, they would be traitors to the future. He believed this Province could boast of hiving solved the problem which had vexed the most profound Statesmen in the Mother Country. They bar! gat a system of really National Education, which he firmly hoped was even now bearing good fruit—a system which, as it expands and enlarges, would exercise an influence for good upon the destiny of this country. Holding these views, he should be sorry if any action of his, or any resolution of the Council, should have the effect of impairing or imperilling what had been so well begun ; and it was because he believed that his resolution would have the elrect of consolidating and confirming, that he submitted it to the Council

Mr DYER seconded the motion

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was not prepared to support the motion He did not deny that the operation of the Assessment Clause of the Ordinance had led to some strife detrimental to the cause of peace in some districts, but certainly not in most of the districts of the country. He was not aware of that strife being general. No School Committee was compelled to raise the assessment, and if there was the strong objection to the tax in any district they had simply to elect a School Committee which would not levy the assessment. Throughout the Province there were forty-one district schools, and out of these there were only thirteen districts, representing sixteen schools, in which an assessment was raised. He did not think it would be expedient to repeal the assessment clause of the Ordinance, for if they did, many of the districts would probably make a less effort to raise the required amount by private subscription, and others might abandon altogether the idea of raising enough money to keep the teachers alive. He thought it was not c.dvisable £bat the moiety of the teachers' salary should be made an unconditional grant from the Government, and be be-

Vogel

j lieved that as it at present stood the Government gave quite a sufficient sum for education out of the revenue ot the Province. As the system proposed by the resolution was more objectionable than the present one, he would oppose the motion. Mr BURNS could not entirely agree with the motion, although he could not help thinking that there was some truth in the remarks of the honorable gentleman who moved it. He considered it a disgrace to many of the large districts that they should allow an assessment to be levied as in his own. Mr IIENNIE opposed the motion. Mr BRODIE said that until some other means was found to provide for the support of the schoolmasters in country districts, he could not see how the assessment clause could bo struck out of the Bill; but he held it was the duty of the State to see that every child was educated, and he thought it would be far better for the Government to pay ever}' teacher's salary, irrespective of any subsidy which he might get from his district. While agreeing with the principle of the motion, he should feel it to he his duty to vote against it. ! Mr VOGKL would support the resolution, but he thought that the second clause should be withdrawn, as it could not bind the votes of the Committee of Supply. Mr THOMSON thought the most equitable system of assessment would be an average rate. He moved an amendment to this effect, which was not seconded. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER hoped the motion would be set aside. The present system of education in this Province was perhaps the best system in the colonies, as it was perfectly free from denominational interests. We had now the elements of a system of public education which should be carefully nursed, for on it the future welfare of the Province depended. Mr PATERSON regirded the assessment clause as otic of the weakest points of the present educational system, and one which it would be well to get rid of as speedily as possible. Mr E. B. CARGILL opposed the resolution. Mr CLAPCOTT wa3 opposed to the system of taxation for educational purposes, lie supported the motion, but he most heartily agreed with the first part of it. Mr MACANDREW asked leave to withdraw the second clause of the motion. Leave was given, and the motion as amended was put and declared carried, when a division was called— Ayks, 7—Messrs Clapcott, Dyer, Gleeson, Macandrew, Morris, Stevenson, and Vogel. Nous, 12—Messrs Basting?, Burns, E. B. Cargill, Dick, Hepburn, Miller, Moss, Mouat, Reynolds, Street, Thomson, and Walker. The resolution was negatived. Till: DUNKDIN TOWN ISOAitI) DISSOLUTION Mr VOGEL moved—"That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, asking him to represent to his Excellency the expediency of disallowing the Dunedin Town Board Dissolution Ordinance.'' He simply wished to elicit an expression of opinion on this subject, ho that the Government might have some authority upon which to act in the present difficulty; and should the opinion expressed be in favor of the motion, he should then ask leave to withdraw it, and leave the Government to act. It was a ! question whether the Town Board should ttot be reinstated for a month or two, and j a bill introduced' into the Assembly to constitute the municipality. He believed that the Town Board Dhjjhition Bill had been hurried through the House by the late Government, out of a spirit of pure pique. The adoption of the motion was the only way of getting the Government out of a serious difficulty. He did not believe that the Town Board Dissolution Ordinance would be absented to, but what they had principally to fear was the long delay which might take place before an answer waa received, as his Excellency could disallow an Ordinance at any period within three months. Mr BASTINGS seconded the motion. Mr REYNOLDS had heard no argument in favor of the motion. The Council passed the bill with its eyes open, and i;e saw no reason why he should alter the vote he gave on that occasion. Mr PATERSON was surprised that a motion of this kind should have been introduced after the vote by which the Bill passed the House. He could look upon the introduction and carrying through the House of this Bill with more satisfaction than any other Act of his while in office, and he believed that if the citizen* of Dunedin were polled, a large majority would be found in favor of the Bill. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY ?aid that although he opposed the passing of the Bill, he was not now prepared to support the proposition now made. The House by a large majority having passed an Ordinance, he thought it was not for any individual member to resist that Ordinance. The resolution proposed would not meet the emergency. The only thing he knew of was ior the Government to appoint another Commission, to proceed with the. works of the city as best they could. He trusted that before Friday he would be able to lay on the table a Municipality Bill- So far as the present ■ emergency was concerned, he would mention that the Government had that day empowered the City Engineer to expend .£IOO in opening the drains, to clear the city ot the flood. The Government intended to repay this money out of the £35,000 loan to the Town Board. Mr VOGEL asked leave to withdraw the motion. This was put to the House, but there being one dissentient voice leave was refused. The original motion was put and negatived. MR BATTIGATE's. PETITION. Mr VOGEL moved—" That Mr Bathgate's Petition be referred to the Select Committee on Private Petitions." Mr WALKER, as chairman of the Se- , leot Committee, objected to this petition

being referred to the Committee, as the prayer of it was a matter to be decided upon by the whole House. After a discussion, Mr BASTINGS moved an amendment —" That the petition he referred to a Committee of the whole House," The SPEAKER suggested that as this involved a money question, it should be taken up in Committee o( Supply. Sir BASTINGS adopted this suggestion, and altered his amendment to that effect. The amendment wai carried. The House, after adjournment, resumed at seven o'clock, and went into Committee of Supply on Tin-; inde.v.utv niLr.. On the first item proposed, Major Richardson said he believed it was the same item as appeared last session, under the head "one orderly, L 91," which was ordered to be struck out. This was, if so, a direct violation of the will of the. House. The item was allowed to stand over until some member of the lute Executive was in his place, to give an explanation. Accommodation for Sir George Grey, Lll9 14s 7d. Mr REYNOLDS thought the General Government ought to be applied to for this sum. It was too bad that the Province should be put to the expense, seeing that his Excellency did not take advantage of the invitation given. The PRO VINCI AL TREASURER said that this item included hotel and other expenses; and, he believed, the cost of a sentry box outside the hotel. (Laughter.) There was another item, of L.50, to come on the Estimates, for keeping horses and a carriage in waiting for his Excellency. This would be the whole expense; although there was a general belief that it would be very much greater. Mr VOGEL understood that the General Government had intimated their willingness to pay these expenses; but he was sure that the Council would have very great pleasure in paying them, and in receiving his Excellency also. Major RICHARDSON had it from a member of the General Government that an offer was made to meet the expenses; but the Executive oi the day, with just pride, declined the ofTcv. Therefore, tiie charge came justly ugpiust the revenues of the Province. The item was agreed to. Loan, IHC2, Interest, £42G4 18s. This item was postponed, on the motion of Mr VOGEL, in order that definite information might be given as to what it represented. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that he would give the information at the next sitting. Bank interest, Exchange, and Commission, £10,2f)5 4s 2d. Mr VOGEL proposed that the item should be reduced by L4OO, which was charged as interest on re-exchange of a j draft for LBOOO on tiie General Government, which had been dishonored. He understood that the late Government intended to resist the item; and he undertook to say that, in making the charge, the Bank adopted a course which was not usual. Then, a very large portion of the interest, L 14,000 in whole, had been charged in advance, instead of when the respective Loans expired. That, too, was unusual, for the charges remained as overdraft chargeable with further interest. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that however gratifying the opportunity might be to the honorable member, las enabling him to show his knowledge on the subject, he (the Treasurer) considered that the matter was brought forward in the most objectionable manner. lie believed that through motions of this kind much loss had accrued to the Province. He admitted that the charge on this reexchange was a matter for objection—he knew that it was a point for dispute with the Bink; but he thought also, if the matter was insisted on, it would be found that the Bank was entitled to insist on the charge. Indeed, he believed the charge would be found to be recognised in the list of charges prepared by the Chamber of Commerce. He did not doubt that when properly represented, the Bank would refund the amount; he thought they ought to do so, but he thought they had a legal right tf> make the charge. Let honorable members say what they would, the Bank of New Zealand had advanced largely to the Province, when not another Bank here would assist with a halfpenny. As to the second point, it was not interest in advance that was charged by the Bank, but the discount paid by the Bank to get money on the debentures. Mr VOGEL: How can you dispute the L4OO with the Bank, if you pass the item ? The PROVINCIAL TREASURER: I should put it as a matter of honor to the Bank, and ask that the sum should be returned. Mr CLAPCOTT said that the late Treasurer had a long interview with the Bank Manager as to this L 40 0; and the result was, that there was no help but to pay it. The Manager stated that he had no power to remit the sum, but that he would undertake to lay the item before the directors, with the protest of the Government against paying it. Major RICHARDSON was satisfied | that, instead of doing harm, the fullest ventilation of these subjects was calculated to raise the credit of the Province, by showing that the Council did not blindly follow any statement, but it was determined to ascertain the merits of every item. If the Bank had done something which was rarely done, it was the duty of the Committee to refuse to pay the item until they got satisfaction. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER: I said that the Bank had exercised a right which was rarely exercised. Mr REYNOLDS could see no good derivable from the discussion. The £400 had been paid; and it depended on the representation made by the Manager to his director?, whether it would be returned or not. Major RICHARDSON believed that the

transaction wan simply a paper one—that the bill never left Dunedin, and that the Bank had cleared £400. Mr BRODJE protested against continual discussions which amounted to no more than this, "Tell us how it ia that 2 and l. make 4?" or that had no other object thau to help certain members to attempt to build tip a reputation for knowing something about financial operations—which they did not. Suppose this item was postponed for explanation, or the motion of the honorable member lor Waikouaiti wa3 carried, how would that effect the question of the £400 which had been paid. Mr MACANDREW said that if the bill was sent to Auckland and went through the regular course, the Province would be liable to pay the 1,400, although it was sharp work to charge it. But if the bill never was s.-nt from Dunedin, then there ■was no riant in the m-itter, and he would altogether oppose the payment of the item. Mr REYNOLDS said that the bill muft have bten tent to Auckland or to Wellington, where the General Government was ; for there was the item "material charges." Major ItrCIIARDSON : I say that I believe that the bill did not go to Auckland at the same time as the letter from the Executive Government stating that it was sent; and I have very grave doubts whether it went at all. Mr REYNOLDS : It must have gone, or it could not have been protested. The two guineas, for material charges, shows that it went. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER moved that the item stand over until he could make er:quir3r. He would specially inquire whether anything had been heard from the head quarters of the Bank, as to the L4OO. He would repeat that he thought the charge should not be enforced; and also, that he was satisfied the Bank had served the Province well, while also taking enre of its own interests. Mr VOGIOL withdrew his motion in favor of that of the Provincial Treasurer. He denied that the arrangement with the Bank had worked well. The Bank was not in a position to help the Province through its financial difficulties ; and if the Council would get the Province through them, they must make a. very decided stand in the matter, and decide whether the Province was to be wholly Bank-ridden or not. The item was postponed. Mr CLAI'COTT gave explanations as to the first item, "office keeper." The presence of the officer was absolutely necessary for the safety of the documents in the outer office, seeing that the messengers were often absent; and, in addition, the oflicer performed a great deal of clerk's work. The ofliee-keeper was the sergeant of police formerly called the "orderly." The item was agreed to. The other items were pitted without, or with unimportant, explanations. Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again. I'OKT CIIAr.MKIIS .Mli.VjriPAr. ESTATE lIII.L. This Bill, conveying to the Town Board of Port Chalmers certain sections at Blueskin, comprising 491 a. "Jr. 27p. was read v second time; and was committed and the clauses agreed to. noAx>s liii.i.. The consideration of this Bill, in Commit'ee, was resumed. Clause :S7 was agreed to ; 38 was struck out as very much involved, unnecessary, and of doubtful legal validity ; the clauses to 47 were agreed to, with some trilling amendments; and the short-title and schedule A were also agreed to. Schedule B was proponed, on suggestions by Messrs BURNS and REID, that it would be better to leave to the Executive to define boundaries of districts, than to attempt to do it in the Council. On the motion to report progress, ■ Major RICHARDSON suggested to the Government to cause a chain to be attached to the buoy near the mouth of the Clutha. There was no communication now save by sailing vessel.?; and this chain wouM save a groat deal of time, in the frequent event of wind failing just at the entrance. This plan would cost little or nothing. It h.il been recommended by Captain Thom^m, and had been favorably reported on by the Road Engineer. Progress wan reported, and leave obtained to fit again on Wednesday. At 10 o'clock the House was adjourned until two o'clock'to-day ( Tuesday).