PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 1048, 29 April 1865, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Fbiday, Avail, 28m. The Si'bakeb took the chair at two ■©'clock.

COMMISSION OS JiANDS.

Mr BRODIE asked the Provincial Secretary —" When the report of the Commission on Lands is likely to be laid on the table of the Council ?"

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that, on the previous afternoon, he wrote to the Chairman of the Commission, asking him the question ; but he had not yet received an answer from that gentleman.

Sir MOUAT allowed to lapse questions respecting the withdrawal of lands advertised for sale in the Tuapeka district, as he understood the Government were not in possession of information, necessary to enable them to give an answer.

TUB IiATE PHOCI.AIMKD REMISSION' OF TUJS X,ANI> TAX.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved that the Il*use go into Committee to consider the following resolutions :—

1 That this Council rcofr^i cs'tfie necessity of prompt action to avoid the \>t:x* diirJculii.s likely to arise from the ii-w of th<: Proclamation dated 20tb December, 1814, wkii r«fennee to theremission of tb« L-iti'J 'Tux, nijd rhe subsequent refusal of the G.-reral (•jcivernrnent to concur tberein. 2. 'Ibv* ibis CmwlJ relying on the concur:-!-nee of the General Government to aid them in a iihera! conu'dcralion of the interests of thoB ri who purchased land on the faith of the Proclamation albrc-Btid :

Heeolves— Ist. That Mitt Honor the Superintendent, be respectfully mju> M< <! to r.pj.ly Cor the rawt\"n <•( the Gener-.l (Juv :iim«.r»t. to an Ordinance of U;e Council npim> . i ui<:: a MjflHe.nfc sum to pnnblo the Provincial Uovt-r rr.ci.l in < fft-r to fiucli of thesaid purchasers !->; n^y v.-iMiin sx month* frfuii thcpasMnßofth'- ■[ pro;, i ,ii<m Ur'iin-iiiceoN cf,i» Hf.u of paviric lh< t'/, »o native hack tt:e money paid by thuu ii:.-;;.<;ctive'y, v.-i'h intercut at thrrate of p fr r i:r-iif frrni the date of original p;.yji'-i.t at tiiu I.sir! '.flic; to date of election. 2nd. That a res".'rs"t.fu! ti'ldn-M b» prrrentcl to Hia Honor rrq :<::,-vn: him t> plner; on « Hufipieinentary Jistta:U<j the cum of £22,000 for the purpose. Mr BRODIE was chosen to take the chair in the absence of Mr Hepburn, who took his seat during the debate.

In Committee,

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that, at the outlet of the session, the Council showed that it was fully alive to the great importance of the question now to be raised. lie was not debirous of again entering into the constitutional aspect of the question, upon which the Council had already come to a decision. What was now to be considered by the Committee wna, what should be done, consequent upon the action of the late Government. Are turn laid on the tnble showed that land to the amount of 1/22,000 was sold in consequence of the Proclamation, or, at all events, during the timo tho Proclamation was in iorce. The first consideration was, whether the Council could support the action of the late Government, and appropriate yearly 1/2200, or so much as was necessary to pay the tax which 'the late Government promised, by their Proclamation, to pay, until the purchasers under the Proclamation had made improvements to the extent of 40.-1 an acre. The Proclamation was issued on the '20th December; and on the Kith February, the Colonial Secret-try wrote to the Superintendent a letter which would he found in the correspondence on the table. That letter contained this passage : —

In the opinion o! tin- ll' n~r;ible the '.ttorncyQeneml, tlic lV'^lniriiiticiii in fjus'-Mnn is i'.I«::il. It is not comfi'li-nf to llie I'roviuci.il Kx-ouiivn Government, or t > the i'r<.>viii<-i:il L-ui.l .tare, lo defeat, eitherf'ir<.ft!y or imiirrrtly, the lecisln'ion of the Gcneml Ai-itni'ily. Any ApTir-prL.tHiii Act of the. Pioviii. c id' Otiitfo, [>v porting to pivc eflcct to the ai>«ve f'ror! ••muiou, w-uM hnvn, in the opinion of the Attorney •(Jcneial, to lie disallowed.

To pass such an Appropriation Act would, therefore, be of no avail; and, moreover, if of avail, it would temporarily invalidate measures which the Council itself first passed, and then got passed in the Assembly, milking this tax part of the Land Act. The Committee might refuse in any way to rcco»nise the action of the i late Government. But, admitting that the Proclamation wis illegal, were the purchasers aware of its illegality, and to what extent was the Council involved by their ignorance? Although any Appropriation Act would be disallowed, the Committee might resolve to ask the Assembly to pass a special Act, enabling the Government to pay the tax, cither for the whole time promised, or for part of the time, as a compromise; but to do that would be to some extent to accept the ac- ; tion of the lite Government, which had already been declared unconstitutional and illegal. There remained the other course proposed in the resolutions — that of giving the purchasers, the option of having their money back, or ! of coming under the tax like any other purchasers of 'and. It was true that some of the purchasers might have commenced to improve the land bought under the Proclamation, and might therefore be not inclined to give it up; but such purchasers would see that they would soon free themselves from the tax by completing the stipulated improvements, and it could not be much interest to them to object. There •was another question-—that of the liability, as to the purchasers, of those who signed the Proclamation. He understood the late Government to have stated that they did not consider themselves personally liable for the amount of the tax, and it was not for him to express an opinion on the point; but he bad to state that His Honor the Superintendent dfd not concur in the opinion that those who had signed the Proclamation were not personally liable, and that the Superintendent considered that it would not be honorable for him to ■withdraw from any liabilities involved by Ms action in the matter. He (the Provincial Secretary) would move Resolution .1: but on that motion it would be convenient to take the discussion of the whole subject. In reply to Mnjor Richardson, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that of the 22,000 acres, only 4000 seemed to have been sold, after the receipt of the letter from the General Government declaring the remission of the tax to be illegal. On the 7th March, the ComAND M'LEOD'S

missioner of \Va3te Lands applied to the late Government to allow an announcement that the tax would have to be paid by the purchasers to be inserted in the Gazette ; and on the 10th, the Government declined to do bo, pending the result of correspondence with the General Government. On the 25th, the two notices appeared together in the Daily Times.

Mr «J. CARGILL had no reason to disagree with the resolutions, if what was meant was that £22,000 was to be voted to the Government for the purchase of a Provincial estate; but if the resolutions were meant to meet the real question, then he said that they merely played with it When the time came, no doubt the purchasers under the Proclamation would pay the tax, and then go to the Treasurer and ask for repayment. It might be said that they had no claim ; and that they might, if they pleased, sue the Superintendent But he held that if the Superintendent and the others who had signed the Proclamation were to be come upon, it was for the Government to do it, and not the purchasers under the Proclamation. lie did not see that repayment was to be escaped. lie was not going to speak of the policy of what the late Government did. It had been assumed that that Government wanted to get rid of the Land Tax, and that having got the Treasurer to write a memorandum, they took advantage of it to issue the Proclamation. But the fact was not so. The Treasury had been besieged, and it seemed as though the door must soon be closed. Then the Treasurer brought down his memorandum; and after two days' consultation, it was determined, as the only mode of getting relief, to issue the Proclamation remitting the Land Tax. Some members doubted whether the Proclamation brought the money that was received, lint in December the land sales bad fallen to ,£1400; while in the next month, the amount received was .£16,000. lie had no hesitation in saying that but for that £1G,OOO : which he believed was brought by the Proclamation, the Province would now have been in a state of utter collapse. Seeing how convenient to the General Government bad been the supplies derived from Otago, he was sure that the Government would not have liked to see those supplies stopped. lie believed that the General Government, looking at the stake it had in the matter, was very glad at the course taken;-by the late Executive; hut, of course, when it was done, and the danger was over, propriety had to be considered,', and the General Government looked very demure. If there was present a member of that Government who could speak t authoritatively, he thought the declaration would be that the General Government was much in the position of a fond mother, who while holding that some chastisement was needed, yet in her heart admired the daring of her darling son.—(Laughter.) He was quite sure that in a case of such urgent necessity, the Frovince had a right to forestal a portion of its revenue. He did not think it was of any use holding out prospects that those who had bought land would take back their money. lie believed that the .£2200 a year, or whatever less sura was needed, would have to be provided; and to raise the question fairly, lie would move as an amendment, the substitution of the following as the first resolution : —

That His Honor the i-uperintomlent hn respectfully rtauente'J ■»o apply for (lie fisneu' n of the Gemml G>>yirnment to (in Ordinance r.f the Council fippr'jpriatin(r n sutfirient -urn to enable the Provincial Government to fulfil ttiuubli^ntton« entered inlo with tlm^e person" wh ' pnichnsed 1.in.l under the Hioiilniuatiun of the 20tu Decemh(;r, 18C4

Mr REYNOLDS opposed the amendment, by which the Council would stultify itself, ;uid hold out an encouragement to other Governments to break the law, trusting to get their offence condoned. It mi<;ht be hard upon the purchasers; but every one was supposed to know the law, and they ought to have known that the Proclamation was illegal.

Mr WALKER supported the resolutions.

Mr VOGEL protested against the slavish deference to the General Government shown in the language of the resolutions. He should vote against the amendment, simply because the late Government did not summon the Council as soon as they might have done to consider the Proclamation. If the money was to be returned, it should be done at once : it was not at all right that the purchasers should be allowed six months to make up their minds, taking advantage of any of the many things that might occur to influence their decision. If the amendment was not carried, he would move one for an immediate option as to giving up the land, and bringing forward an Appropriation Act to that effect.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said it had been urged that his predecessor was in difficulties, and therefore the Proclamation was issued. If that was admitted to be sufficient, where wa9 the thing to stop, would it not be making the Government of the day sole judges of the proper time and mode of breaking the laws. If land sales could alone save the Province, in its late need, how was it that the late Government were such opponents of new Hundreds ? Looking at the list of the purchasers under the Proclamation, he believed that they would have purchased equally with or without the Proclamation; and that therefore, it had not had the effect attributed to it. The purchasers must have known that the Proclamation was illegal, and have gone into the matter, nevertheless, as a speculation. No man was entitled to take advantage of his own wrong ; and the purchasers certainly ought not now to complain of the option which the Government proposed to offer them.

Mr STREET believed that land purchasers, who were resident in the country, confided in the honesty of the Government. Seeing a Proclamation by the Superintendent, they had reason to believe, and right to expect, that it would be carried out. If the resolutions were adopted, they would strike a great blow at the credit of the Province. Mr BURNS knew that some of those who appeared as purchasers expressed great doubts as to the legality of the Proclamation, as soon as it appeared; but they said they would risk it. They had done so, and they must abide the consequences. FREE STORES,

Mr RENNIE supported the resolutions.

Mr CLAPCOTT thought it was just as fair to assume that the purchasers were ignorant as to the question of the legality of the Proclamation, as that they knew all about it. The land sales this month had been urged in proof that it was not the remission of the tax which saved the credit of the Province, but these sales had resulted from the rush that always followed the declaration of Hundreds. —(Hear, hear.) The Council had voted sums as rewards or acknowledgments of services rendered. It might well, therefore, vote this £2200 a year for the time necessary; for what greater service had ever been rendered to the Province than the saving of it from a etoppage of payments.

Major RICHARDSON thought that the honor of the Province and the Colony was to be considered, as well as the purchasers under this Proclamation. There were large loans on the faith of the territorial revenues, which depended on the Land Regulations. If it was to be made knoxvn that a Provincial Executive, without consulting the General Government or even the Provincial Council, could alter the laws passed by the Assembly, on which the Land Regulations were based, then, credit as depending on the territorial re- \ fenue, would be worth just nothing in the money market. He thought the General Government would be inclined to say, v For the honor of the Colony and of the Province, we felt it our duty to stop this illegal act, as well as for the purpose of trying to prevent more people suffering from a possible belief that there was some legality about what was done." It appeared to him that what the late Executive did was unnecessary; had it been necessary, it was equally necessary that the General Government should have been consulted before it was done.

Mr BRODIE and Mr DYER supported the resolutions.

Mr ADAM defended the late Government. If the members of that Govcrnwere to be held liable for the amount of the land tax proclaimed to be remitted, then let them be reinstated in their seats at the table; for surely there was nothing illegal in their doing what they liked with their own money. But the Council had visited punishment on the late Government ; and now they had better arrange to pay the tax, from a recognition of the fact that purchasers thought nothing about the v late " or the " present " Government, but put faith in the Superintendent and Council of Otago.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY filled in the blank in the resolutions with " 12^ per cent."

Mr E. B. CARGILL considered that the resolutions were.a most miserable attempt to get rid of an important question. If they were passed, it would be considered out-of-doors as nothing but repudiation on the part of the Council. The resolutions would only open the way to interminable law-suits. Instead of dealing with the question, they would simply throw it into the most impracticable and dangerous condition possible.

Mr MILLER strongly defended the late Government; and, while he was speaking, the Chairman left the chair, it being halfpast five o'clock.

The Speaker resumed the chair at seven o'clock. lie informed the Hcuse that he had just received an intimation from the lessee of the Gas Works, to the effect that in consequence of an accident at the works that afternoon, the supply of gas would be cut off during the evening, tie suggested that the House Committee should obtain a supply of candles and bottles.

Mr ADAM, as Chairman'of the House Committee, said there was such a strong feeling displayed during last session against the introduction of ginger beer bottles, that he objected to introduce1 them again. For a temporary derangement of the Gas Works, he did not feel justified in going to the expense of obtaining lamps.

The SPEAKER took the sense of the House whether lamps should be obtained. This was agreed to, and orders accordingly given to the House Committee.

The SPEAKER laid on the table a statement received from the Auditor, showing the funded debt of the Province on the 31st March, 18G5; a statement of the debts due by the Province, and to the Province on the 31st March, 18G5; and a statement of the receipts and expenditure for the financial period, from 31st October, 18G4, to 31st March, 1865.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY laid on the table, resolutions on the land question, and gave notice that he would move their consideration in Committee on Tuesday next.

On the Orders of the Day being called on.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY proposed that they should stand over, in order to allow the debate to proceed, which was interupted by the adjournment.

This was agreed to, and the Speaker left the chair.

Mr MILLER resumed the debate. He repeated that the late Government was perfectly justified in taking-the course they did. It had never been shown that the course they adopted was illegal. If the Council had thought fit to support the late Government in the course they took, he could not see how the General Government could refuse to sanction the appropriation.

Mr E. B. CARGILL wished the Government to explain it' these resolutions come down to the House from the entire Government, including the Superintendent, or only from the members of the Government sitting at the .table.

Mr CLAPCOTT hoped the question would be answered.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY declined to say more than that the resolutions came from the Government, because no private arrangement had been made with the Superintendent that a distinct explanation should be given on this subject. The amendment wa3 put and declared carried, when a division took place. Ayes, 10, —Messrs Adam, Clapcott, E. B. Cargill, J. Cargil), Clark, Gleeson, , Miller, Paterson, Reid, and Stevenson. Noes, 19.—Messrs Bastings, Blair, 250 BAGS

Brodie, Burns, Dick, Dyer, Hughes, Kilgour, Macandrew, Macpherson, Mollison, Moss, Mouat, Richardson, Rennie, Reynolds, Thomson, Vogel, Walker.

The amendment was negatived.

Mr VOGEL moved the amendment which he had previously indicated— " That since the Council refuses to ratify the proclamations of the 20th December, 1864, the persons who have purchased land upon its faith are entitled to the option of having their money returned. That the Government should request their immediate decision as to whether they desired the return of their money, or to abide by their purchases. That a special Appropriation Ordinance should be passed providing for the return of the money of those who desire it."

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said the Committee had no right to "pass such an Ordinance.

Mr JOHN CARGILL hoped the onus of these resolutions would lie on the majority who carried them. He believed the remedy to be worse than the disease.

The amendment was put and negatived, and the original question was before the Committee.

Mr VOGEL said it would be an act of repudiation to pa«s the resolutions as they stood. They had no rij:ht to put oft the purchasers for six months. They might as well do it for six years. If the Government were not in a position to return the money at once, the best thing the Council could do would be to take no notice of the matter, and allow it to take its course. He was opposed to the Proclamation of the late Government, and would support an equilable return to the purchasers ; but he could not support the proposed appeal to the General Government, which, he was sure, was made under a mistaken impression of several of the members of the Government.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government offered to pay back the money any day within the six months, whenever the purchasers chose to come and take it.

The resolutions were put and declared carried, when a division was called lor. There voted—

Ayj:s, 17. —Messrs Bastings, Blair, Brodie, Burns, Dick. Dyer, Hughes, Kilgour, Macandrew, Macpherson, Mollison, Moss, Mouat, Rennie, Reynolds, Thomson, Walker.

Noks, o.—Messrs Adam, Clapcott, E. B. Cargill, Clark, Gleeson, Miller, Paterson, Reid, Vogel.

The resolutions were carried

The House resumed, and the resolutions passed in Committee were reported to the House.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the adoption of these resolutions.

Mr VOCJEL said lie would divide the House a^ain, in order to give the Chairman of Committees an opportunity of recording his vote on this question.

Mr BRODIE hoped the Chairman of Committees would not be influenced by the evident intention of the honorable member for Waikouaiti.

Mr E. B. CARGILL hoped the vote would be recorded.

Mr HEPBURN said lie had never yet recorded a vote while he was in the House, and he would record his vote upon this occasion according to his conscience.

The motion was put and declared carried, when a division was called. There voted: —

Ayks, 17. — Messrs Bastings, Blair, Brotlie, Burns, Dick, Dyer, Hughes, Kilgour, Macandrew, Macpheraon, Mollison, Moss, Mouat, Reynolds, Rennie, Thomson, Walker.

Noes, 12.— Messrs Adam, Clapcott, E. B. Cargill, J. Curgill, Clark, Gleeson, Hepburn, Miller, Paterson, Reid, Stevenson, Vogel. The motion was affirmed. TIIK SLAUGHTERING OF WISEASKI) CATTJ.K. Mr CLAPCOTT moved:—"That it is desirable that steps should be immediately taken to prevent the slaughter of diseased cattle, for sale as human food.1' lie thought it was well known to every member of the House that the result of opening the Ports had been a large increase in the number of diseased cattle in the Province, and it was also well known that cattle slaughtered while in a state of disease, and sold for human food, were m the highest degree unwholesome. The effect upon the human frame caused by partaking of this food, was the production of diseases of the most disgusting and abominable nature, and in aomn instances death had been the result. It was known to the medical profession that several fatal cases of this nature had taken place inDunedin, and he instanced one" particular case in which a child had died in consequence of drinking the milk of a diseased cow. In his opinion those persons who had the power to keep this disease out of greivous fault to answer for. The late Gothe country and did not do so, had a vernment had nothing whatever to do with the opening of the ports. He could not impress too strongly upon honorable members the importance of this subject, and he hoped the house, by a unanimous decision, would show in what light they looked upon"the introduction of diseased cattle into the Province.

Mr GLEESONiseconded the motion

Mr BASTINGS would vote for the motion, but he thought the mover of it had attempted to work to some extent upon the feelings of the House. He denied that the opening of the ports had beea the cause of the spread of the disease, because the disease was spread through the whole Province before the ports were opaned. He thought the opening of the ports was an act for" which the Superintendent deserved the thanks of the whole community. (No, no.) When the ports were opened, proper steps ought to have been taken by the Government to prevent the introduction of diseased cattle.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER defended the course of conduct which he had pursued with reference to the opening of the ports. He had always been under the impression that the ports were opened with the consent of the late Executive. MrCLAPCOTT: No. DAMAGED FLOUK,

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER would support the motion.

Mr MILLER said the late Government to a man voted against the opening of the ports. They were opened by the Superintendent by virtue of his delegated authority. He (Mr Miller) would support the motion.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government are adopting very stringent measures to prevent the landing of diseased cattle, and it was very desirable that steps should be taken to prevent the slaughtering of any diseased cattle for sale for food ; but he did not see how he could remove the difficulty'except by organising a sufficient staff of inspectors of slaughter houses all over the Province. As far as the Government could do it, it was most advisable that this should be done.

The motion was agreed to. THE ESTIMATES

Mr VOGEL was called upon to resume (in Committee) the debate on Mr Moss's motion a3 follows:—"That it is advisable Estimates should be prepared to 31st March, 1866, but the Council be convened early in October, 1865, for the transaction of other business." He said he would move an amendment to the effect that the Estimates be prepared for six months. It was hi* intention to place upon the paper a motion on the financial policy enunciated by the Treasurer, and he would not refer to it at the present time, but confiae his argument to the question whether supply should be voted for six or twelve months. Looking at the statement of the financial position of;the Province as made by the Treasurer, he found some slight inaccuracy among the figures. He was proceeding to show that the assets upon which the Treasurer relied were mere paper assets which he could not realise, with the exception of the £43,000 of the Harbor Loan Debenture?, when he was frequently interrupted by the Provincial Secretary, who made many explanations. The honorable gentleman continued to argue that the assets were not realisable, and the position of the Government was not a tafe one for the Council to leave it in for twelve months, and that the Estimates should not be passed for more than six months. The position of the Province, as shown by the Provincial Treasurer, was not such as to justify the House in voting money for a longer period than six months; and as that honorable gentleman anticipated that he would shortly have a larger sum of money on hand, there was another reason why the House should re-asaernble for the purpose of voting money in six months. He had no wist) that this should be taken as a hostile vote to the Government.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was glad that the honorable member for Waikouaiti had placed the matter at issue 03' a distinct motion, and also that it was not a hostile motion. The Government asked the advice of the Committee on this question, and he was obliged to the honorable member for Waikouaiti for placing it as he had done, so that there might be no mistake as to the ititentioa of the Committee when the vote was taken.

Messrs Adam, Miller, Paterson, and Dyer, spoke in favor of the amendment, which was put and carried.

The House resumed, and the resolution passed in Committee was adopted.

Several returns and reports of the Select Committee on Private Petitions, were laid on the table.

The House adjourned at ten minutes before ten o'clock to Monday at two o'clock.