PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 741, 3 May 1864, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

MONDAY, 2nd MAT. The SPEAKER took the chair at two o'clock.

NOTICES,

Mr HUiGHES—At the next sitting, to move, "Thatleaveo£ absence be given to Mr Brodie for ten days." -.

Mr VOGUL—At the next sitting, to move, " That in the opinion of this Council, it is desirable to. repeal the clauses in the Otago Waste Lands Act, Nb.2, which impose a tax on lands purchased after the said Act comes into operation. That supposing effect be given to the foregoing resolution, the Council, in terms of Clause 8 of the Otago Waste Lands Act, No. 1, hereby recommends that the upset price of Waste Land be raised to L 2 an acre. Th at a respectful Address be presented to" Hl3 Honor the Superintendent, praying him to take the steps calculated to give effect to this resolution."

Mr HUGHES—On Wednesday, to ask the Government, " Whether any satisfactory oifer has been made by private parties, and accepted by the Government, for supplying the Waitahuna Gold Field with, water for mining purposes, in accordance with the advertisement issued by the Government in respect thereto 1 Also, whether it is the intention of the Government to place on the Estimates a sum adequate to this purpose ?" Mr VOGEL-iTo move on Thursday, " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place an aaount of L6OO on the Estimates f-r the altera tion of a bridge and for widening a portion of the roadway on the Port Chalmers and Dunedin toad." The SECRETARY of ' PCJBLTO WORKS laid on the table a Report from the Commission on1 Roads and their Deviations. liTCBNSING BILL. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY brought in the Licensing Ordinance, 1864. It was read a first time; and the second reading was made an order of the day for Monday next. COMMISSION OH ROADS AN» THEIR DBVIATIONS. Mr BIRCH moved— " That in the opinion of this Council it is inexpedient, under any circumstances, and especially in the present position of public finances, that a paid Commission on Roads and their Deviations should be kept up for the performance of duties which properly ; belong to the Department of Public works, and that the said department with I a paid political head ought to be perfectly competent to the fulfilment of the duties supposed to have been performed by said Commission." He felt that the subject was a peculiarly delicate one; and he should deal with it briefly. The honorable member in question was either an officer of the Government or he was s subordinate. But he (Mr Birch) had yet to learn what was meant by a subordinate receiving L 650 a-year. If the honorable member possessed more tact in dealing witb these questions than any member of the Government, some one should make way at once for his entrance into the Government, or the honorable member should resign his seat and become a subordinate of the Government. There was no absolute necessity for retrenchment, and no necessity whatever lor this appointment.

Mr KILGOtJR seconded the motion,

The SECRETARY of PUBLIC WORKS said that the Government had not made any such appointment. It was to be presumed that the Commission on Roads and their Deviations actsd like the Hospital Commission and appointed its own chairman. Every commission had had some paid officer—(No, no) Th«? Hospital Commission applied for a clerk and a reporter, and got the clerk: and the Commission on Roads and their instruction had a paid clerk and paid men to take traffic returns. The Commission on Roads and their Deviations did not want a clerk or a reporter; but they found that it was absolutely necessary there should be some one to devote, his time to making arrangements with the numerous persons scattered over the country, whose interests were concerned. They reported this, and the Government thought they could not do better than appoint the chairman (Mr Hardy) who had to devote a good deal of time, and who they con-sidered-and he had proved himself—thoroughly capable of performing the serious duties involved. There were, in the whole, 400 sections of land in question. In the Kaikorai district, in the Worth-East Va'ley, and in the Peninsula, the question was very much complicated. Nearly all the roads made by:the New Zealand Company were on land to which, up to the present time, the Government had no title; ' and those roads were laid out at equal distances and right angles regardless of the nature of the country. So far as he knew the duties of the Secretary of Public "Works, and those of this Commission, he said without hesitation that they were quite incompatible. So far as the continuance of the Commission was concerned, the question was for ths decision of the House; but it would be premature until the report of the Commission (now in the hands of the printers) had been presented.

Me REYNOLDS oould not understand why a paid member of this Commission should be appointed. There were two road engineers and a large staff; and surely some one of them could be found to do the work. He had served on the Hospital Commission, in connection with which prof«ssienal men had given their services; the

whole expense, apart from LSO for a Clerk, being LI 10s. He wanted no payment for what he had done; but if the appointment in ques'ion was allowed, lie would, as a matter of principle, claim L 2 2s a-day for the time the Hospital Commission had sat.

Mr BLAIR was understood to oppose the resolution.

Mr BURNS saiJ that Mr Hardy had settled the question of three deviations in his (Mr Burns's) district) and if no more had been done, the salary was cheap to the Province. He believed that in another case, by a little adroit management, Mr Hardy had saved the country L2OOO'. He (Mr Burns) had had it in his power to shut up all the settlers in his district; and there was another deviation question so blundered by a member of the Government that the traffic to and from the diggings was nearly stopped through it. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that the Commission recommended the appointment of Mr Havdy, who was their chairman ; and no one had attempted to deny that be had done his duty faithfully and well. —(Hear, hear.) It would undoubtedly have been wrong to have appointed a member of the Council to a permanent paid office, unless he had at once resigned his seat But the appointment was only up to the meeting of Council; anybody could bring forward the question of continuing the Commission; and he would at once say he thought it quite right that a paid Commission should not be kept up. There was a vast difference between what Mr Hardy had to do, and that which was done by the Chairman or members of an ordinary Coramission. The whole question as to the future could be well settled when the Estimates came •n.

Mr VOGEL thought the honorable member (Mr Birch) was entitled to the thanks of the House for taking up this subject, which was a disagreeable oue. He would urge the honorable member to withdraw the sentence relating to the present state of the finances; for there was a good case quite apirt from the monetary question. The position of Mr Hardy must be very disagreeable to himself, and was entirely inconsistent with his position a3 a member of the House. That honorable member was receiving L 2 2s a day for vrork to be done out of the House, while it was in session—was being paid ta stap away, in fact. If this principle was sanctioned, offers of so much a day to absent themselves might be made to obnoxious members —(a laugh) -audhe himself might have such an offer made to him. Great stress had been la.d upo:i the fact, that a Committee of the House reeonituended the appointment of the Commission ; but the Commission was not appointed in accordance with that recommendation. The recommendation was that a Commission should lake evidence to enable all the land to be dealt with to be included ia oue Bill before the beginning of the se«ion; but this Commission was preparing bills—in fact, _it was a new department, doing duties which belonged to the Fxecutive. He found that instead of all being included in one Bill, there were six < rdinances talked of in one interim report. They we re told last session that if new Hundreds were not proclaimed, the Survey staff would be out of work; but new Hundreds had not been proclaimed ; &nd surely tbe Government could have foaud some one surveyor to inquire into these macters and to have given evidence before the Commission.

Mr VOGHJL moved as an amendment, to strike out the words, t:and especially in the present position of the oublic finances."

Mr HUGHES seconded the amendment.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER admitted that the appointment did relieve the Government of some Executive duties. The honorable member for Waikouaiti was led into error by getting hold of the appendix to the report; the report itself being quite another matter. It would be most difficult to find any surveyor who could perform the duties of the Chairman of the Commission.

The amendment was carried,

The motion, as amended, was put, and the Speaker said that it had been declared in the affirmative.

Mr HARDY called for a division, remarking that the Secretary for Public Works would have done so had he been in his place.

Mr BIRCH said he had nnderetood that it was never intended to force a division. He was much surprised at Mr Hardy's conduct. Upon a division there appeared— Ayes—9 , Messrs Vogel, Gleeson, Macandrew, Reynolds, Clapcott, Hughes, Kilgour, Stevenson, Birch (teller )

Noes— 11: Messrs Moss, Dick, Murison, Burns, Mansford, Lloyd, Sfceele, Morris, Waiker, Miller, Hardy, (teller!)

The motion was, therefore, negatived. Notices by Messrs Brorfie and Paterson lapsed, owing to the absence of these gentlemen.

COAL RESERVES,

On the motion of Mr M&NSFORD, it was agreed-" That the time for bringing up the report on Coal Reserves be extended to Friday, the 6th of May." *».

THE EVENING SITTING.

Mr REYNOLDS moved-" That no fresh business be taken up after ten o'clock p.m." He would not press the motion if the Government would come to a general understanding on the subject. He thought that it was quite enough for one day, to sit from two o'clock until ten.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was sure that any positive rule would be most inconvenient especially towards the end of the session. But if the motion meant no more than to declare a rule which was to be broken when convenient, no great harm would lie done.

The motion was adopted.

On the motion of Mr BURNS, seconded by Mr STEVENSON, it was resolved—" That the petition from the settlers in Otakia, Akatore, Saddle Hill, and neighboring districts, b-j taken into consideration when the Council is in Committee on the Estimates."

QUESTION OF SUPJPLY,

The adjourned discussion on the following motion moved by Mr BURNS was called oa: - " That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether the usual method of introducing the question of supply be followed for the future, or the practice of the House of Commons be adopted or a modification thereof. Said Committee to (-onsist of the Speaker, Messrs Gillies, E. B. Cargill. Morris, Reynolds, Steel, and the mover."

MrVOGEL, who was addressing the House on Friday evening, when the time arrived for taking Orders of the Day, said that his object on a former occasion was to prevent what he thought the uurpased burking of a notice of his that had been on the paper for several days. But he cared not now what became of the resolution; because, acting on a suggestion by Mr Speaker, he would give a fresh notice of motion.

The motion was agreed to.

THE HOUSE COMMITTEE,

Mr LLOYD brought up a report from the House Committee. It stated that the Committee had made inquiries respecting the warming of the hall. They found that the place could be warmed by gas stoves; that the stoves would cost L2O, and that L 3 16s additional would have to be pait for insurance. They recommended that the work should be done forthwith.

Mr LLOYD proposed to move the adjournment of the Standing Orders, with a view to the immediate consideration of the report; but this could not be done, because there were not twothirds of the members present.

RESOLUTIONS ON L4.ND

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY in moving; that the House do go into Committee to resume consideration of Message, No. 4, mentioned that the Chairman of Committees was absent, owing to illness.

The SPEAKER thought the better plan would be to go into Committee and then elect a chairman.

In Committee,

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved " That Mr Stevenson do take the chair," which was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN stated that the question before the Committee was the substitution of 25^,000 for 500,000 acres, in the first resolution ; the three resolutions referring to the half million loan being as follow:—

•' That in order to afford greater facility for the negotiation of the loan of L 500,000 authorised by the " Otago Loan Ordinance, 1862," by giving additional security for the repayment thereof, it is desirable—

" 1. That an area of 500,000 acres of the waste lands of the Crown witbin the province of Otago, and situate in tuo said province, should be reserved and set apart as an estate against which the said loan and the interest thereen should be a first charge.

2. That his Excellency the Governor be memorialised to "auction the selection, reservation, and approp. < uon of the 500,00 ft acres of land for the purpose aforesaid, and also to give assurance to tins. Superintendent of. this province of

bis wi)iingce3i to'nsssv.t so such measures sa may teintrodneedatth6'n«xt Fesnon of tlie General AsseinUy, forithe purpose "of giving free effect to the pvoposedi security. --./ :

'"3. That the Colonial/Secretary be requested to give assurance thafc at the next session of the General Aesenibly, lie will introduce such measures as may be necessary to enpb'e such selection, reservation, and appropriation of the said 500,000 acres ot lsn 1 to bs made, nnd to enable full effect to be given to the proposed security."

Mr VOGEL urged upott the committee the importance of careful consideration before thc-y rcjsctedtbe first resolution, seeing- that would be tantamount to the rejection of the whole three. If this was dor;e, the Assembly couid only conclude that Qtnzo was quite ready to borrow without giving security; and that, Uierefore, she wna wiiiing that other Provinces should do the same. That Wuid be a disastroi'.a policy; for the direct interest of tiis larger Provinces was to insist upon giving security, to '.("event their becoming the' security upon which-the smaller ones borrowed. He did not, in fact, think the Assembly would assent to further loans ex?ept on the principle M giving security, and Otngo would dn well to tal:e the initiative." It might be we!l, if the first resolution could, be altered so as only to affirm the principle of setting aside land.-. ■"'

The PaQVINCiAL SECRETARY said that so far as tie notice of amendments given by the honorable member,- the matt-r was not of ; much importance, as he did not suppose'tbo. House would adopt them; espe -ially sf einnr that they came from the honorable .member. But there was niatt?.r for grave consideration in the rpmarks of the honorable member. He held with tha honorable memher that it waatnwtexpcdient v»ta?o should give security for loans by settirg aside lam's, in order tha,t its representatives might demand that similar security Ehoukl be taken from other Provinces. He did not believe the Assembly would assent to give ..sanction to the half million loan ■without such security; and if that loan had not oeen floated off, it would then remain unnegotiatetl. .

Mr REYNOLDS said that the question came up in the and it was taken tor granted that the General (Joverament was responsible for all then authorised loans. "Why, then, shonld they tie up the lands as against ths half million Joan, whea all that could be got hai bsen got already. If the question was of further loans, no doubt security, would be required.' It would not be difficult to, git a distinct expression from the General Government.that they considered the revenue of the ]Cplony liable for these provincial loans, and that would, be .'ill -taat-could be needed. His own impression was that the debentures hai been sold by this time; and ho felt sure tbat if an Agent had been sent home there v/ould never have been a difficulty in the matter. -..'.•

Mr TOGEL'sairt that the Provincial Secretary, with a grim fac&tiousness that would bave become a rautereturnins'frorii a funeral, h'.d remarked that it was not likely Ms-(Mr Voxel's) resolution would bs carried, especially seeina' that, it came from him. He did not know' what this meant, unless it was that the satelHtss of the Provincial Secretary—those who hung on his words and voted as he directed--(cries of " name*') —unless such memb?rs, if any there were, had received strict orders to vote against liis (Mr Voxel's) motion. When members' were paid to keep away from the Council ——

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY requested an explanation of this statement.

Mr VOGrEL: Two guineas a-dav were paid for duties to be done outsi?e the House: that was the English of being paid to keep away. If he could Joofe to the past arid see his promises broken and his predictions falsified—if he could see that he hvi got the Council into a mess, be^' cause in a spirit of lil ml self-reliance he had persuaded the Council that every thing was right—he would be the last man in the House to use such language towards one. the ca.rryin7.out of whose sugffestion' wou'd .have, saved, the Province.™ ("Hear, hear,,'irbm ths Prqviacial Secretary.) That was the relative position of himself and the Provincial Secretary. If'ibe suggestions made by himself nnd o'her honorable members had been acted upon, these difficulties would have been avoided. It would'be wfill if the honorable gentleman could kjadw-himseJf'^'could see himself as others saw him. Then the honorable gentleman would see that although-he was atthe head of the Government, he ought to bear tiiiiiself with greSt. humility; because he was in-tbatposition for the, reasons that he had broughtthe Province into "an awfnl mess, and^becausgiit-'was not desired to take the reins from his handstand so;fre<2 him from the difficulties of his own handiwork. It wa3 not because any one, in the House bslieved that the honorable: freritleinan wbb fitted to hold those reins, thafc-hewas permitted to retain his grasp of them.

The PftOVINmLfT.RSASUEEE: What is " an awful mess" ?.'■•'■''"'■"'■

Mr TOGEL: Lands had been sold for. less than they were worth, public works wers stopped, and the Province had been handed over, bound hand and foot, to one institution. That w^s the Provincial Secretary's handiwork, ■-.-. "

Major BICHAROS >.N,gaid.-.they ware asked to do a work ofaup'erogation! Ths "Goverusr was cmpowere'l, un'ier'certainconditions,.frj frive t!ia; Imperial assent tb loanh ;*and he had a'ivesi svtc' f assent to the half million loan. JtTotbin-rth /a ' t -. the Council couid do cowl-.l give'gr';at!»r rali' jjL to the loan. What was ths irood of hypothsr at ; n i .and for the satisfaction- of the General 0 O vl. n . meat, when that ; Government were air ea A v s0 well satisfied that, they Jiad^one-1 what V,., n L-i blei- ... ' '•■' ■»' - "

The SKCRETARYv for ■■FUBlf 6""wOSK3 said that ii the Governor bad- as^ jen & c j t 0 the loan, his Excellency ,^yas aoi- the J ssemblv Major EIGHAar^DN:, T^ i mpori ,l power would neve tons bewcriteoi fa- thiTtmWv The SEOiISTARY:-ijir- Pf ■ i ts-Y" WRITS' believed that the Asr.a*fe Sctto.^ ™c credit of the colony. ™»ia he larl t0 make soms arrangementicr- ,cpa«>!^ :atinf f the who!e of the Provincial )oan^^b 3 ' ;wa s nfca the + , r S Go^''nient and the Assembly, SS?w Co.lßn^^'«:6f "tho Stock Exchange CDlomal guarantee- fo , the loan and thug £ c ]ed to Quote the o^ . , tfa ir ~ :TB St"l7B^ en?e ** eTCa to the debentures fc &r , uat , l :- fo - m} , th( f would of nve£, JUT ht; c Jaree ber oi mvA^srs -^ho- -wt-re not aware of. the poc.itipa.and r3SO ui'ce-Viof the colony. It was as security ia ITturn fortliis Cploniii guarantee that in was prr ,p ose{ j tft . sst • ' Jan( j. aR(J . not . w j t jj anyvier,- to recorameod'the loau to investors,at aoaie. ;?

MACA^DE^.Wi. believed the General Government loans tobe'snaranteel by the Imperial Legislature. He aa:i'«fiii with the honorable member for the ChUba'.'.(Jtfajor Sichardsou) that ■what it was Droposec^- .to get. in exchange for locking up the land,''typatd^ipfc help the.floating' of the loan in nsy wsy.. . ~-. :■•■■■■ Mr BURNS also agreed, wltk Major Richard-s-.n. ■' • ■■■■«■ ,-..■-.

The PROVINCIAL TRE/ih'UKER ieia that it would be impossible to Cirry on■ th.? affairs .ofthe Province unless ths qufiutiori of the loans.wa^ placed on a more satisfset jry basis! jthaii at present; and th.it if. was for '-'hose who opposed the resolutions to bring for-svard some scheme in lieu of them. " •.-'. ■

Mr BIRCH would si!ffge'&'that the Government should claim five--eight-is of the Customs revenue. *■■ ■ - • ■ . ■

Majo? RICHARDSON, trusted the Government would not supnos^thKre. was.anything factious in the Opposiljo'o— (if Hear, hear;" from the Provincial ;iecrecarry.), The. simp'c object of those v/ho oppossi th*". resolutions was to do the best they could fo;- th.*j Provincial estate Supposingl the re>olut.ior«-» were passed, they could have no efket for V 2 ifldnths ;*<fo"r ths Assembly' did not meetnufil March nexb.i ' ..--•"''•'

The amendmer.t "s..That' *-500,000'■ in tlie firsi lesolnticn, be struck out and.'2so,ooo'inserted," was put and jiegatrv cd.

The resolution vras then- piit and' a <!ivis:oh called for, tvhen there-voter"f™ '■■• v '-'■■■

Ayes, 5: Msssis Dick, Vo»el, Murison,Moss, Gillies (teller)..

Noh3, Tfj: Messrs !Hughe3,-' Macmdrew, Kxlgour, Blaii% Birch. JLloyd, .Morris, 0 Wnlkc-r, Qapuott:, Gleeson, I*eyoold9, Mackenzie, Miller. Eichardson, Burns (*9ilei%).'. i;, ■ '

The motion was tbjrefore negatived,

Mr VOGEL suggested thatI.tbe'Efoyincial Secretary shcuM •■acve'to report1 progress. He tradefc-tioil Ibafc is was a Ministerial question, seeing thntit was oinbedied, in" the f-Adrlrea*; ami althougli he bad felt bquiid-tovota Tvith the &j Ternment, jet if the )q4V ofcthese resoiuti'oiis laarl to tlie forraatipn of ,Jr. good Ministry, it would bo a «ood count'erbai.ince.

The PROYIKCTALTPtSASTTatHK s.iicCUiat c Government wcuid adopt': tlte' neoavs(i ih;y ought best; and thoy would tiecido "'ttli'ib"'to after they had oUr.'tjn'ed the ■■ opinion oi''tlie nse uooa the re'olutisns re!afe.;ne W fatiiro us. He confessed tliat tliere \va.s some weisflu the aT^urneut, t"int as tlie.li^lf mif.Hon'loaa had a placed on tbe marker.; •liEd^ahDuWnot b'n othec3ted against it'i~-biSh ths- Groverii'iilent

f t.botight that-' what" ti-ey proposed .v/ouH haya Icito ; a guarantee dV the- aood'fiiirti oof the Pro-;, :vbacß..', il" would ask leave to-' withdraw tfe second and iliu'di resolutibna; hnd Would 1 dimply.'; niovc .those cozameneing,'- "with 1 reference^ to" future loafls." i'■ ■-:'•■■•: -:-':. • • '!^'''"",.' Mr YOQSL considered"'thattVne rSolutioniS,; .vrere not stall suited fco'lbe subject; ana he did, not conceive that the 'Home v/otild be at all, inclia'sd to ■■ pass them. T.hVre was Jv6ryt li,ttle.pf,. priaciple in them, 'but a vast,amount '6\ detail..', They were more like a. model ApriKnge d;eed man/ th» enuneiatibnof a pdlicy^'^fafjb'esidesVsQnie.bf tlisir points:he conceived to be;tota.l)y'pbiec;iiibji-I Tittle. They stipulated that for every "Provincial Loan Act passed 'there should 'also Ve.passi>d an Act ofthe Assembly. Seeiidw that would eneumh'jr the statute-book. The plan would* 'fe'v^ry diiTer,entfrom.that suKpest'2d'i,a-tke.'Ass uemfc7y,—' namely, that there should Be ajjererilißrapoweriric* Act. The amendments of which he had given,, notice were tho following ::— ''~ ', ~ '. . That it is: desirable that an' act' should:.be mr trnducail into the Assembly spp.ciiyinjj the con r ditions ufider which," in tutu re', Jt'.royincia^Loans ■ will bs sanctioned,' and subject fo;the eaid conditions, providing a Coloraal recbgjutioti. of said Provincial Loans; That 'the' condition? 6houjd bo as'fol.iows:— '"■'".. '■■ ; ■'-'■.- ,i T ; ': • Ist. Tnc reservation of all Provincial Loans Ordinances fov the signification of tHe Governor's pleasure thereon. ■".-: , ..\ , 2nd. That assent to 'any' Loan. Bill should no(i he ?iven unless it distinctly,, states the purpose?; *(» which only the loan is t» be applied,^!- unless a sinking fund ' shall'be' provided , which will insure the repayment of the loan; with'interest in; ?. period not'exceeding' thivtf yeaiA.'' ~ , , v ..>,.• •, i 3rd. That no such Loaa.Bill should be. assented f; -to by the Governor, ttDlew. prior theretb, ; country, | lands of eood average value ■, to be .aporoved by ihe Governor in: Council, shall.be set, apart foe the purpose of repaying, the ' loan put.oMhe pro-' teeds of such land," atul Ihe.guanfcity^b'f.land so to ba set apart should be at least suflSiiejit to cover the amount' f the loan, if sold at the upset price of country land-within the Pxoyin.ee-to which the same shall relate. '"'' ,: ;. sth. That on such lan'-! "being set apart and. , approved as aforesaid, the Governor. in Council should (iec!are the land to be ;6ul^2c,t;.tb the provi- : sions o> the Act. ,: ■.:'. , .. .-.■ :•' 6th. All such krid shoultf';be : sold .in accor- ; dance with the laws for the time_ bein'jj.in.fbrce. ; i'ov the sale of land wilhin, ih'e, Provirioe, .and ; wherever «ny such land is sold the proceeds asis; insr therefrom shall be paid. 'into, the Goloaial Treasury, and shall be applied to the liquidation of the loan, and should be' invested/or. that pur-: { pose by Commissioners du'iy appointed under virtue of an Act ofthe Asseoibl;/ to invest such funds. : . ■■■■•,.■ "j----7fch. That whenever a.Bttfiicie.'nt sum be realised •to pay roff the loan aiad the interest due thereon,, ihe landket apart as1: aforesaid should be released ivom the1 previsions of the Act.. That the jeyer:ues of the Province ordia 3xy and territorial, should further bo .llible tor the punctual jpayinent of the interest a"ad s inking fund,on, the loan, arid for the repaymant of the principal. . Bth. That the' Assembly should, .authorise; a specific power of taxatfion, to be'applied to meeting the engagements contr acted under v tha.; Pror vincial Loan Ordinance s y 'to be applied only ; i^ cases where there is : in inability to meeb^uch engagements','or ■where: it is thought desirablevtp raise money in i his #? iy for the purpose of meeting such enga^ementf;). ' : , : : . • "'■ These resolutions , waTeiramed almost exactly in accordance with a '■ -oill whivOh was recommended by the Select Com? aittea of the Assembly-on Provincial Loans, and which '£.*!wasi understood; raceived the approbp\tion of the Government. He took leave to say th st his~resoluttans« were-ve?'y uineh more'suitable3 than those of the Government, which were bo invoiyed'>th#S itei id^iipE t'link any. one mi jha Housd could 4 ctearlyTinderstand them. The j seemed ip_jmply-ihat there should be iio, prio; .ity of loans, which was absurd asa, proposal, ar A wouluf be TTatal in.-, its'effeef ; and' it also ,8 .ppearad .-,,. t0, .be, r ., intended;.. J.or give the As: ie-mbiy power' to alter the purposes for ■ wiieh a loan ■'ivi^'hovrowed,^ which it sim j>)y had.;;no_t ythe niiPQweriiioi do. He had i;' aiToducedvinohis ,rßso]n'ti,oa?,^.tlie' principle ot ta xatiba to meet Provincial, loan engagements, ff .lie honorably membsr for1 Bujiedfe .(Mr Cargill) } iad said' that lender^lcrok^to^he; power of taxa;,tioh of t,he,co'untry.' ; to' which- J;h© lent; aud a-, memh'er of.the^Gov;ernmen^ .^34' tslked about,', setlinjf :apart;a.porti6n of the Ca3-> toms Re'ven ne, 'as ■;securUyi, \ whieft. tjje ißptincil: \vas never likelytd^ -et thepowef,bf Idoiiigi BeeingVi how extensive were t he requirements for; Genera.!;;! Governmenfc. purpose s. 'Bht ther.e'jnigh^besome.' tax fixed on in, the^ event cf an emergency.j and if it became PeceV=a.ry, he hoped'it would -fee;made so disa^ re fiabl.6'and:oaio'u?, that the Governr' ment. the <";6"uncil,' and" the people that there a fter all such engagements, should>be mat with out resoi't'fesr toa.tax. ■■': \. ', ,' . i ,/- •The SE^EBTAJir forPTJBttC FORKS, said i* Wlls ned-essar v thatthese resolutions of the.

Ctw er.nment shoulol be bo£h lengthy and framed ■*"',lllegal phra'-'eo) o?y, and had they .been less:. '*' .jey would"no: doubt have been styled' meagre. He pointed out the very s'eriou= consaque.nces; whiah would m-'ult from the vote which hadjast beea given. Wher;. the House went into'C'om- . mittfte oi' Ways and. Means they would that the., great question iwobld "be/whether they were to eu-; duavor to-continue the sale of these debentures, or^ to stop the public works of ths r Province, and, they would'thus setf that the vbte/ivhich they had ju*t given, was of the most serious kind. \ That | vote had cut froni the feet of th 3 Government \ ; th3ir entire position in regard,, to the,sale,j of the delsentures. In 'brinping these resoluiions|,i forward the -Government had a wisft' only to as—i cerbain the,opinion of the Uommittee oil the subject, and he hoped they wouldinofc'follo'w up>' | the last vote and throw out all the resolutions/. Such an act on the part of the Committee; would only be saying that, they were willing, thatthe' Province shouW stand where it was ;for.;sometime to come. . - .-■ - , :•■■ Mr. E. B. CARGlLL'regretted that tKe,.Committee were asked to entertain the resolfjfcions with all the derails with which the? were bfoiisjhfc.1; \ The principle ou.^ht to kave be^n first; confirmed... ard then the resolutioas could have been'put'.! into shape by the Provincial Solicitor. lr(He'did not think they could do anything at '<a]V'%' mend;. • the position of the debentures iv the home raar- ' kel:, for tlis sole 'question-* oni the Excliarigs was', whether tlifse debentures had' the saiictiqn of the Gener.il Assembly of N&w Zealand." "..1/ :they. were to ask the sanction of the' Assembly noVifc would be for a new sflt- o£■dshentu'res and -not for the old onps. One featnfe' of the 'Government resolutions to' which he objected was'.'ttje,, haniingover as security thepublie works wni.Qhl'j tha loans should be fneahs1 of constr,ur|;inq.'' Tna'r amon'rlments of the honorably m?tober for;\Vai-,. kouaiti hing'ef) .entirely 6n;th^ su^esfion'/that 'the General Government should mafp 'a keneiil enactment to.einjjower ail-prpYincjal Ibaiis'to' be is?ueil iintrnr the sanction of ■ the': : 'G>r,. neral Government. ,Thif;r: he "felt'-. satisfied,'' tlif! ' Geneial ;Govercment- ;-would' jd^y\ So.? Moreover, ihe Assembly's- doing' soI' Vo&fd : nbt meet the present diflieulf.y,l for wliai was v/anteii, vras the direct sanction-to a definite roan/'aii'd not asanctioa to agenera! system of loans.' 'He did not wish to throw..any.: obstacle in the:.way«f the Government, but he did not think '.hi resolutions would meet the difficulty.- ■ ■■. •■• ■ The SB.Gai?.TASY for PUBLIC WORKS. pointed out that, the Government had endeavore! by the resolutions to protect the ■ interests of fhe persons who! were at present in possession - of tin larjd proposed to. be set aside . •': Major RICHARDSON,; proposed that-^the amandrflfnts should be put. seriatim. ■■>''■ ' ■■"■'■■; •The PBOVIVOIAL SECRSTARY .thought" that the resolution of tha honorable member for Waikouaiii should be first • placed against, the, entire resolntiong oi.thc Government, and then,whichever rssolutious' were carriedii-.could.be taken seriatum. ~: ■...-... •- ■.'.'- --s ': ■ : Mnjor. KIGHaEDSO^. fought, there was' poo.'l in both, and .by a. happy tiraalpamation; similar to that which they sawr, op,ih«.'occasion- of: tUe la-t division, they might arriveajtia.gopd!con--ciu4on. • ..-..-, ■'' :.-:i-.. '■"?' •'■'''■'-: Mr REYNOLDS tnouglifc.that; very general resb'.utibns would bs;'befcter t -than.eutesiog into details.1 ' : '■■ .'. ;i - \ ; ?■- i; ■'■ •■!' ;' Mr ADAM thought ib : was a,monstrous proposiiion t> put one1 set, of l-esplutjpßS against another. One clause of tie/^oreratnentresolufcions 1 should be put to the .House,)anit any. member'J -waid propose an amendnsen^. ■.■.-•-■■.; C:'U ' ' ;;) •■■''{■ Mr VOGEL propassd tq allow!'his first sevenresolutions to so against. :.the second v'set;'bf Government resolutions, and then allow.liimHb'5 'puVhjs eighth resolution, as it. entailed a^epa.rate; pri:'..'ible. ~. , .-;'; ~ ;i--.<; '-i-i? •'-' ;; • This wai airrc-ed to, and Mr Vog^is -first seven resalutions were putitp-tlie committee, when a di-. vision, was cailfd. :•• ' ■'■ • f )'-"'"'"''.,,.-'. " Aye, I—j-'lr.Vogel !(toller.) -■' -•-}'■'■/[ ';; ? ~", ' Nop-vIS '-Messrs Dsck,; rvFos,», Barns,^'CargUij Revnoiiis. Afl;un, Hardy, SteeJ.-'-'til^ir,-Murisoh, j Giepsoa..-Millar, Morris, Mollisbh, talker.'i Gillies toller,) •■ : -;■ ■': 7" :'T "7 j,1,. VOGKL witb^rsw.:his eiprhfch reSolutiQEi until a fisHlipr-stawc of the.discussion, '.' '.. •' \.\ Uv"■ Ji'EJJS-QI'VS, .oa! vbeh.:ilf of his cqlleftg^ag, ' Mr. E.B. Gargilli -proposed tß9^sJiifi7rn> r!am?nd-.|

I,'m^it to follow the thffiK Goverambt resolution -after the worris " it is desirable"---•^'J;^hat such loans should be raised only under •the Express ,^n,ctiojv,,of <;#»■:> <?.«»eral- Assembly, and; in acomviancs with res ■■hxtions previously adopted ,'and ithkl all■ ■ -expenditure of monies 4&«efcl by. means cfr.nny.suehJop.n shoutl J)^ restricted 'absolutely tq.the. purposes .soeeinsd'in sitfih! AcVdf fc&e'G-heirsl Assembly, orsuch.resoiifioh^of thisCoirneil.1 That ;in lr prdei; to.sec.ure r'(*fc(aytiTftntof &hy fedbh ldftn'and tire due payment of 'intersst-tb^e'nn ;out''bf !t.lie' resources of the PfOviDce, t a.aafficienf.nnrtion'ofthe Crown rands "Of the Province should be set ap?,vt by the GounW:ai security for'tiie same, find vested m FURh in'aririer as the General Assembly 3hr.1l think fit. ■! Mr, SENNlEipanteil -but that it was not sbteri in tha^resolution -of wh^t value "the land $TiAul(r>e'-Vaieh,TCa3 set ,aside by the amendment^ ■""" '..' , .'. . , ;•' ■~' '■ , : "air: VnWiJj'a hi tbft amen']m=nv,,iiHn'>uijn so shoi-f,' ■wentioto the whole ppivii of Die matter po^'prehfjnded-under the long;■• resolutions of t.ba Government,, and .he w.nW, -therr-fore, mipport the amendJuent.- Ha tlibua-ht that an empo^erinffVict .would..meet;'the ease better thnn tha issuing of a special Ordinance for each < %r!'M4CANbRE:W thought they discussing iin. abstract principle with regard to what "I'te^RY^r'PIJBLTC WORKS sn?d'the.resolutions! .pointed 'tothe future bscauso another loin ..migrbtbe: required to'take nt) the present on« if it would notsell, find it was just as Tvell'tb discuss tne-'Principle and decide the •irroTini ,upon which ;they werei "to act for the future

Mr; YOGfcßL.wasted j.if -they* were to take .this intirnitiopt ts a.declaratiori of Government policy. W«3 :a further loan to ho raised to take up tlie for -PUBLIC WORKS :

r- ■■■-Mr.VirtiaEL.saiith^lTonse never could get a ! strai^litforward, explauaiicn from the GovernI merit,'any- any thins frhevodid learn, was di-as-gsfi I- from1 'thkrn. He. asked\if U was the intention of I 'th.fi ■• Government -during .the,present se3siori, to I brin'2 do.wa'a Bill for authorising another loan to j tate'-uptth'ejprespnfcone? ',--. •->■. I "Tlia iPJIO-y-INGIAL-.^EEASURER: The ! Government d^ not intend doing so. . I' The Wendmenfc was then put, and negatived. ■The'.%st ; .of the .Government resolutions was theft nut, asM-ows: - - ■ ■' ■"'■''-'■'■ .-. '"'.:'_ ■' iiv'T.i\at such Joans shonld be only -authorised for, land devoted to such works, (being- of a permanent •iiatiire! and of general usefulness) as are. manifestly require-? for the advancement--of ,the Province! a«d i for. the construction of -which works the proportion; of .Piwrussial •revenues at the dis:p'osal Gf the Couneikare- inadequate.'' Pliis resolution.'wa'i' carried without discussion. RVoiution? w,as then put.^lt stood: thus— '• ;"TJi,ati all,such';loans in the-firsf place should be isancti6ned-by an Ordinance or-Resolution of ■tlus'Council,aind;shon!d afterwards be'sanctioned by an:' Afit of'the'General ■•Assembly.-" ; ■ ■ Mr. VVOGEL . opposed this resolution, a« it wduidhave the effect of tying up;the'hands of the Council in a.monstrbus manner. v\He could not Bee any necessityfor the cl ause as it stood. ■ The resolution was then put and carried. ' Tb.% next clause was carried without opposition 'as'fbl!6ws;:7—:.-,;. ■:ic J ';","' '.. ~ : !"That no such; loans should be sanctioned by this "Council,.'nor :shall the sanction' of the General Assembly be sought for any^uch loan, except on the security hereinafter specified." : 'Appended to ibis clause was a sub-.clause "A"; upon which, .a.number of amendments were proposed. The ; sub-clausei-was moved as follows:— 'By reserying and; appropriating1 as1 a security for any su<?h loan,: a number' of acres ofthe waste i 4ands of the ,Crown, MtriateHu tins-Province ,m, the proportion of-one acre of such Inrid for everypound ofsucfc)6<is^prb'vi,ied;tirat wh'fen it is desired to effe^ta-iunther-baa or further loans, for the compVfion or extension of any such^.works. further-loanor■ loans ■should be! sanctioned and authorisedi'-ani; the.1 manirei<'stfequired in the case of. the origiaaHoan, and atfadaitio'n'3 number •'of acres of the Growh,1 shuate in 'ffipytoyinae,: in-i<ffie: proportion-of"one' acre to eve'py'ppnnd ,oi.sucb further Joan or Ib&iis/should' Tbe^et*feide;and appEoprlaietf';as; a further'"and Tjoint >se"cuVity;-for'«the ordinal' "and Stib3ec(nent ileans, au'd saoftldtiibymy>jolntly; withi the'-ilanas, -pTevibusty appn)pri3tad,tb^umulaifve''sec'uri^ for ■the whole"of , tha;ori^infil aildvSubsequentl'oan or leans', no one oft auicfijldan^ or sutVeqnent, ihavins priority byer another.".: ; . ifijj.AJOß' RICHAfirBSON proposed to insert; ■'rnear ike*^beeiuninsfo.fithe ' dlause,,, after-tße .'sCi-owri'^ tfae.-uwifcds:*^'to'^be selected; by the ;' l.i.!w «>w»»-v ■•'■ -~ '•; •-■ ■.;;• c \ j-«Thfewas:spWfea;te- c- ■■; ---■!-. '~; t :.'. ... . "■'Sir 'AD Of .i .proposed td strike out theworcl? |i<fyevery'pou7idi"-v'^l^ *° inseit the fords' "eveiy ! two pounds'- -■■■■ '■'■ ■"'-■'-. : . ~ . " . . !■ .■This was put and-n'«gativsd. . • , ; ; ! ■ .Mr ¥:Q^EL (proposed to strifee out the words !-"in.>.thßi proportion of -on^ acre of- such land for [ every pound of su Kir'loan" ?rid toi'nhert in lieu' |; thereof the' following-r-^"-equal in value at the [upset price'per acre'pf evai!in;f in the Province to [theaniount-of;the loan. " ■■" ' ' ' .

Thisatwendment was'carried'. 0 „ ! ; 'MAJOR RICHARDSON tlien proposed as a fuEtheroamendmenty-to strike out all words f'olI6iring; the word "provided;-"'- . ■" • ■<■■ Uponthis'amendment-a division took place, when there■vbtedMAyes, ;;5; ■Noes," 17. .''-The :am endmenfr was-therefore lost. ■. .:-, ' Mr GtEßSONiprbpo?.ed to add to the end of. the clause' "proYide<l'al\rays that riol.ind now surveyed iorjdeclared'into Hundreda'be girenas suchsecurity.'' ■■.'■'•■ > ' ." ; After a short discussion thTs .amshcfmenfc was withdrawn. : ■■.■:• *■' U ' ':, • " . • ■ , "* < TK'e clause, '■ as '■ amended*■ was than .put and carried. -In Consequence of the number of amendmcßts'which'wen proposed' on' this clause, we .gireit as-r.nign'rJed'and! passed. -!. '.-,'. •'■."•By .reserving .and * appropriating aVa 'securify for any such loan, a number of, acres of the waste .lands of fuel Oo'wh to'be'selected the Council; situate; id this'Province,,equal ia value at;the ujpsff.^pTicaqsßr^acre prevailing' iri^th'e Pro-. .yince.tp tjie-arhonii'tuof the lo!in."OToyjde'd tba 'when it /js;, desired ;to:- effect ri'Vaftner loan .'or farther loans, fofr the conipletioii or extension of. aay,.sueh worjcs; such'furtyerlpaiJbrlbanyjShpuld: .be s^nctiqned-aril.^utßOTKe^^ 'qjur'ai in -'the. caa^e.ofithe •.oi%indlloaß,ian<l.sa acl~ .diffonal nnrnberl ofi'afees -of ■ wasteland^ xif. tlis' C.rf/w.p, situate in •the Pi&Vmce, inthe prdpdrtipri ,'qt oije .fcra.itj) 1 of 'such'further loan, '0 Idans^hpujd bs-s.es as*Te 'and ajipropri^t'eji a? ; a ;jfyrfclic-i?,sncl.joint.security■ for;'the bnal '.sinA t loans; and. Hbould-:fo^r^'^oratly'^,itU Jthe;' lasp3 previdusly-apnl-bpriafed1 'ac'fitfmuiatiye iecujjjlijfjl'or ;the whole of the;6fr|iGaJ ffnd subsequerit 4 -lfjau!iori. loans';:irio one *6f sucK .'lo^ns, ,;jifbfttfier original ioil.isuteequ^nt, Myiag^prj^ey, .Wej, .another,-,, i.. ; iio -'jR "^ '*'''■ !"''\ •'"-.,'-..' '. m , V. 'Jl'h^Oierferead'tlxe heartclause^ ''" . .^ '".. y ',' T,naf:t}ia.diie: iiquidation'df''Sttcli , LoansiaiuT :ihe. interest SJjej e(m should* h& Surfed 'pM 'follows.': By sfirstfih/^r^e 6n^the llsp^ific,YQrks e.K&eatfi&~. wj.fh suoh^loanff, when they^iare. of a, ch'aracfen.to. admit of'a'ißU&icient;]yI'distin(;t_ ! ' i deft-,'. nitipn and appropriation;!'' Provided thai in .ihe everit'of"fo^ additionalloans becoming, .from-time,, (o time necessary, jbaing1, or required fotlhe.corjir : pletion ;of "extension:obsuch works, atid 'b'einfj,' iautho'ris?3ta;s' !iafpi!esaid,yilheiidU'e v liquidation of such '"adctitibrial"loans,' aadithe interest/'tHev'eon |:should he.beciirecl bn:the' specific works, for the j conipletibh orextensioni of iwhfch"sn'ch loans' '.were raised, dnd sbpuidi rank equally with those'pre^ j : yioiisly raissd for same works, and should be j deemed equally with the previous-loans=a" firsf | I'dhaTge'Upoh the whole works towards.;the com- j pletion or'extension of which they are1 to bVex■pended."' " ' ! " ' ■ ■ \'Mr-S. B: OAHGTLL9aid:he doupted whetherthey knriw- what; they were'dbinffi These reso4utions;wer'e^iiot I'causiii2;-; tniich; finterest. 'How iCould' the'tfeuricn in future be;bouivd; as thi9 re-' soiutibn'j)rbpO3e<l to bind theniT,."<; '',, :•','. ■■ '•'The.'SECRa'PAB.Y foV'.FCIBtrC "#ORK3 thou^hb iiti bet'^rjaot to'p^ss.the resolutjpn.with- i oub'Ihearin2f'h'oiibrable"niembers whowere known •tb have !to it. .She Government had," maturely coiisrdcre:l;the;ni3tter nrid belieyed that •'tileresoliitioa'could .welt.fee passed.. ■■..-.■■. - :;Themotipn;WSsab;eed lo,; and : ;.,•-■ ■:. Thfe PRb^frcrA-fi'SEGJIETARY, m>v%d that;ph3irman re,port' rpr'b^s3; .';.... .v ~ ~'.-- --i ■(.>*'"Hki's,"was1 :flotie;;,arid'te.avfe. was:, obtained to sifc f-a]gaih iiSttfl^;'I"'^ I .-'■',.'". '.','" .'..,-.- ...,..-/''.. j' • Tii'elßonsiderafion !of' the^Sesolutions on-Railr, [ WSys,^spbstfonf3i ■ il'\ i".';.l'. i , j V .... , ■, ■:.-. ,v fV^,^''^^POiICB,'EBGULfTION'BILIi t ■ •■■' '"T^Jie "^ousa weat ijitOiGprnmittee; and resuuied ■. •the,cyonpidei'^UQiilof Massage 'F<o. 10;-; ' '~\-

:■- The EfiO:VING: EAjIi'SSORBTASY e^>!ainecl : ' th%t..thfi ; i Message refebmmended tbq.stvilinisc out of ilfe-lasfe clause -of- tleefion'6'of tha !Polica Regulation: Gnclina-uca-jStmiendmentißiH; '

:.,.Mr4o^RiOH'eiri?.ON.Eaid that the'rr.co.in- , mendatio'n; was>'tha£, ii""!sentenc'e id, >vHcb., ths ■House ha<l inserted; the' word' ''iipt'V Bhbu.icl be . .Btruckout. If this was dd?e',!'We. result, would, -b«i tOi-.enaSe--the" GotoiniSS'dner 'b.f' .•bothl-ns'jadge •and'pro'sfec'uf'bi'pf^'airist wuic|i:the-. iHo.Use had strongly protested;-Hefelt so strongly, oaths Bubjectytb'ftt though, it jwpardi's'ed the

v/hi>!e Bill, lie would 7ote against the words bang struck out. The PROVItfCI&Li SECRETARY moved fbifc the«e words be struck out of the clause: — " Provide! always that the Commissioner pt Police, if-holding a commission as such Justice of the Peace may not be one of the Justices of the Peace- to hear or determine any information or complaint laid under this section.'1 The motion was put and .negatived, and progress was reported. THE REFRESHMENT ROOM. Mr LLOY I) moved the second reading or the Licences Ordinance Amendment Ordinance, which was screed to. ■ The House went into Committee, and the clauses were agreed to. Clause. 2, authorises any person empowered by a written authority from Mr speaker, to sell spirits, wine, &c, within the building in which the meetings of the Council shall be held ; and the' other 'clauses are simp'v such as are necessary to gWe effect to this provision. 'The House resumed, the Bill was reported without amendment, and the third reading was made an order of the. day for the next sitting. Mr ADAM moved the adjournment of the House, which was agreed, to; The House, shortly hefora ten o'clock,adjourned until two o'clock on Tuesday (to-day).