PARLIAMENT.

Oamaru Mail, Volume IV, Issue 1319, 17 July 1880, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

I * ■'^ —•• • * 1 / Wellington, July 16. . ' •< >'ln the,Legislative.Council to-day, The Bank of New Zealand Act Amendment Bill was read-a third time. : : Mr. Waterliouse s asked the AttorneyGenural whether the Government had any - power to stop the representation of a play j about the Kellys, about to be played in j Wellington, on account of its injurious ; moral effect. Mr. Whitaker said he should like to 'stop the piece, but the Government had 110 power. , Mr. Peacock moved that Councillors, : should not take the honorarium this year. 1 In speaking at some length to the motion, | the mover said he believed the present ; depression was not temporary, but deep- ; rooted, and the Council might set an i excellent example to the country. Sir P. D. Bell opposed the motion. Mr. Scotland, Col. Brett, and Mr.; Mantell opposed the motion, which was: rejected by 29 votes to 1. In moving for printing the educationl returns, Mr. Waterhouse alluded to the vast disparities between the cost of education in . different districts, and also the great difference in the cost of working the': central boards. . The cost per child was L 8 a year, and the total cost was a fifth: of that of England for education. He; pointed out several ways for a large retrehchiftent in the cost of education^ Qn the motion of Mr. Whitaker the 1 debate was adjourned. ■ The Rabbit Nuisance Bill was re-com-mitted, and further amended. The Council adjourned at 4.35 p.m. In the House of Representatives today,' ■ Replying to Sir G. Grey, Mr. Bryce ; said some correspondence had passed between them and Mr. Amos Burr in relation to the claims of natives to land oxl the Waimate Plains in Taranaki district. .. . Sir W. Fox asked the Government whether, in reference to the " spurious: vouchers " mentioned in the report of the. West Coast Commission (page 30), they are prepared to take action by moving that the subject be referred to the Public Accounts Committee to report to this House on the following points—lst. Who is responsible for the appropriation of the sum of L2OQOi which, having been obtained 011 imprest for specified service j was expended on an entirely different service. 2nd, Who is responsible for the preparation and signature of the vouchers in a form calculated to mislead the financial officer of the Land Purchase Department and the Auditor-General, and for the.suppression of sub-voucher, which, if produced to those. officers, would l\aye.'"exhibited the actual application pf the money.; 3rd. How the Waimate Plains Purchase Takahoe Acco.unt, which now stands, charged with the expenditure represented; by such spurious vouchers may be re- ; lieved of the same, and to what other ac- | count that expenditure may and ought to! be charged. Major Atkinson replied that without expressing any opinion as to the rights or wrongs of this expenditure, the Government thought it would be desirable that a. thorough, investigation should take place ; i therefore they would be prepared to. fur-: nish all the requisite vouchee for having the accounts so investigated by the Public; Qammittee, : : Replying to Mr, Barron, Mr. Rolleston said there was a school established for giving instruction in agriculture in Canterbury. It had a landed endowment of 100,000 acres. It was open to the whole Colony, and the education afforded was practically speaking free, Replying to Mr. J. 8,. Fisher, Major Atkinson said that under the . Act ho bonus would be declared upon the policies in the Government Life Assurance Department until the House had decided as to the amount and mode of division. Replying to Mr;-Murray, Major Atkinson said the Government was in .correspondence with the banks to secure a renewal of the silver currency on the favorable terms offered by the imperial currency. The amount circulating in New Zealand standing in need of renewal was something like L 67,000. Replying to Mr. Ireland, Mr. Rolleston said it was not the intention of the Government at present to aw eQ d the Land Act in connection with deferred payment: so as to deal with such lands under the ballot instead of the auction system. An Imprest Supply Bill for L 250,000 was introduced by message from the Governor, and passed through all its. stages. Mr. Sheehan stated that certain impu-. tations had been made to the effect that: he ha.d attempted to time the departure of the Hinemoa from Auokland with the members to suit his own personal con-i venience. He appealed to Mr. Bryce, who acquitted him of having done so. Mr. Sheehan also complained that other imputations had been made against him in his absence, which, when he got the, opportunity, he would be quite able toj repel. He would the "first opportunity of doing so.. On the motion for the second reading' of the Ma,ori' Prisoners Bill, Sir G. Grey asked that the list of natives and crimes charged against the prisoners should be produced. Mr. Bryce said that ft list of the kind been, laid on the table last year, so; far, at least, that the prisoners' names were concerned. He had no wish for haste, but the fact was that the Act on which these prisoners are detained would expire in a few days, and it was absolutely necessary to proceed with this measure at once.

Sir G. Grey replied that HQ such return had been made, Efctid if it was not made tfye result would be that this debate would be greatly prolonged. Certainly a return giving the prisoners' names was prepared, but not a list of the offences. Mr. Bryce replied-that the return asked for would be prepared and produced in a few hours. He proceeded to say that the condition of affairs on the West Coast had for the last ten years presented a problem which each successive Government had attempted to solve. When the present Government came into office it found the difficulty waiting for jt jr; an aggravated form. A sura of L 55,000 had been voted for opening up the district by roads,, and. the late Government left a body of mien well trained for the work. The work done by the Government had been highly beneficial, despite what had been said to the contrary. On the one hand' the Government had shown the natives that they were determined to do them substantial justice. On the'other hand they had shown them that they were determined firmly to carry out the work of settlement. The position might be'critical, but so far as they could judge there was no real danger, ' Before' this Housp met again he hoped to.see hundreds of settlors established on these plains.' It might be that the natives would inter-" fere, but he hoped not. Returning to the prisoners, he said Te Whiti's influence had been going on growing amongst .the natives to such an extent.that the natives: now came to regard himasam.an endowed with supernatural ..power, After !> -the" removal of the . surveyors • from the' plains, the' natives seemed to think they must do something more 'by way of shewing their title. Their object was 'ppssession - of lands "which had formerly b'elonged to them. ' That was riot an ordinary trespass. , The difference that divided the line between peace and war was a very fine one. Indeed the. accidental discharging of aagun.:might have plunged the colony into a native war. It mattered very- -little • whether they had been brought to trial or not. If jonvicted they would not perhaps ; get more ( ,than imprisonment Ufor thei? techpical. ijbhe trial,

meant nothing so fat as the detention of the prisoners Was concerned ; they would have gone back in a body, and in that case Government would not have answered for the consequences. It would do little harm to allow a few of these men to' go' back to their district from time to time, but if they were allowed to go back in a body, he felt convinced the consequences might be serious. There was a fair prospect of the West Coast difficulty now getting settled. Still, it would not be a proper time to precipitate matters in any way. "The Government thought it essential that these men should not be allowed to go back to their districts in a body. That was what the Bill aimed at, and he hoped members wouid pause and consider the consequences before they gave it a very active opposition. Major Te Wheoro said that if they allowed the Bill to pass, next session application would be made for their further detention, and by that means they would never be liberated. He did not think a proceeding of this kind was likely to satisfy the natives. He called on the Government to allow the trial to proceed. Mr. Stewart said the effect of the Bill was to deprive these prisoners of the right to apply for a habeas corpus. The position was ono involving serious considerations. These prisoners were charged with an: offence which it was obsurd to suppose would have entailed the punishment they ; had already gone through in this length-' ened detention. What they had done was this : They had got possession of a number of men, and they had kept them in gaol on some pretext without bringing them to trial. This Bill was, practically speaking, "an acknowledgment that these men had been illegally imprisoned, and he believed they would have a olaim for compensation for injury sustained against the Government, He strongly dissented from the Bill; Mr. Tomoana believed that the Bill, if passed, would have the effect of exciting the minds of their friends, and they too would be guilty of some outbreak. It was a most unfair proposal, and one which should not be listened to. Mc, Turnbull dissented from the Bill. Hq thought if they would release the men and place them on the reserves made for them, telling them at the same time that any breach of the peace would result in the forfeiture of the reserves, it would have the desired effect. He said the natives had always proved themselves a straightforward people. Though somewhat late, it Was not yet too late to do them the justice he claimed on their behalf.

Sir G.. Grey regarded the Bill as an Ui\necessary measure—one which violated 1 almost every principle of law ; it was, in j point of fact, a, penal atatute—a measure hurriedly oonoeived, and none of the : ordinary precautions or safeguards were . enacted. It proposed to inflict penalties on persons who might be innocent. It . said these persons were to be imprisoned at the pleasure of the Government of the day, and all ordinary means for legitimate escape were to be taken away, and then, at the will of the Governor, they were to be cast forth on the world with a stigma on their character and no hope of redress. Then j again, there was no precise identification of the persons affected, so as to ; 1 avoid the possibility of any other person ; being included in the wrong. The name | of each person ought to have been in- : serted ih the Bill, but instead of that, the language was vagu,e and indefinite, so that any native might be punished. What ; could be-more cruel than to imprison a number of men who had been faithful in many respects to the Europeans. He would : go on when the Premier chose to give him his attention; After a pause, Mr. Johnston asked the mover to be called on to reply. The Speaker ruled that as Sir G. Grey was still on his legs, he had possession of the House. ■i Mr. M'Lean rose and said he wished to make a few remarks on the motion before the House. The Speaker ruled him out of order. Major Harris asked to be allowed to move the adjournment af the House. The Speaker refused to allow the motion to be pufcj and hoped Sir George Grey would now go on. , Sir G. Grey said he owed a duty to the ; native race which forbade him going on until he had received the attention of the Premier. After a further pause, Mr. Brandon said that surely it was the duty of the House to insist upon the member for the Thames proceeding. Mr. R. Wood said that a precedent for ; this proceeding took place some years ago in' the House of Commons. A speaker got up and stood on his legs for five hours : without uttering a word. It was then i ruled that the Speaker could" either order him to go on ot sit down. The Speaker asked the member for the Thames to proceed. Sir G. Grey replied that he could not . proceed until the Premier was pleased to I give him his attention. He would remain on his legs till to-morrow morning if he could not get his attention. ■ Mr. Macandrew suggested half an hour's adjournment, so as to give the Premier time to correefc the proof of his speech. The Speaker said the member for the Thames could move the adjournment. Mr. Harris desired to know if all this i silence would appear in Hansard. After standing for half an hoar in silence, a chair was handed to Sir George Grey, with-which he propped himself up on his legs.

7 Mr. de Itautour oalled attention to i ; standing order, and moved that the member for the Thames be allowed to sit down, and yet retain the floor of the House. ! The Speaker could not see how the . motion could be put unless the member for the Thames, who was in possession oi the House, gave way. Mr. de Lautour asked if the member for the Thames sat down until the motion was put, would he lose possession of the House,, The Speaker ruled,that he would. Mr. Reeves attempted to speak, but the Speaker ruled that he could not be heard. Mr. Johnston contended that the member for the Thames was guilty of contempt, and such, being the case, the House could deal with him. The Speaker ruled that the member for the Thames had not been guilty of contempt. . , Mr. Macandrew considered it a very •lamentable state- of things, and thought that now that the member for the Thames jhad entered his protest against the discourtesy; ofthe Premier, he should proceed. ; Major Atkinson said the. Premier had not been inattentive to what was going on. He paid close attention; and had complete notes-of everything that had "been said. The attack made on the Premier was a tnost unjustifiable one. j Sir G. Grey said he saw the Premier engaged correcting the proof of his kpeech. Mr. M'Lean held that when a member was standing' and not speaking, any other member had a right to correct his speech. ; Sir G. Grey said it was the custom of all representative assemblies for the Government'to pay attention to the speakers, especially, on matters of importanoe, like thiS. • ■ -'V."/- • | Colonel Trimble asked a ruling as to whether standing ori' his feet and saying nothing could be ruled a portion of this debate, as indicated by the standing order. i Various .other: members rose to points of order, during which Sir George Grev. remained propped up on the back of the chair. A.i 1 Mr. M'tean rosex.to: a ujioiht of order, moved that s.trangera withdraw. He

thought it was a pity that strangers should be allowed to see the lamentabhroxHibi. tion the member for the Thames'was making bf himself. t "*■ Sir G. Grey asked that the words bo taken down. < The Speakeir said the motion could not be put, unless the member for the Thames chose to give way. Sir G. Grey : I don't give way; remember that. The Speaker : Will the lion, member give way to me for a moment. Sir G. Grey signified that he would; The Speaker : Then I will resurao the chair in half-dn-hour. The House adjourned at 8.45, Sir (J. Grey having been on his feet an hour without continuing his speech. On the House resuming, Sir G. Greysaid he hoped the Premier would give him his attention. Mr. Hall: I assure the hon. gentleman I have been giving him my attention all along. ' Sir G. Grey : I will not answer that, The hon. gentleman might have Baid so before this. He then went on to say—. When the natives were to be released from gaol it was subject to a provision that the Governor might prescribe! any condition. The prisoners had never; been> tried, and were to be subject to any condition the Government of the day might; impose. They might insist upon their' wearing a particular dress, reside ih a particular locality, or any other thing the. Government might think fit. Again, :th"& Governor told a deputation of the Maori members that the prisoners would be tried in January or February. He was quite clear on that point. Now, they should not put the Governor in the position of breaking his promise. Not only did this Government promise they would bo brought to trial, but the same promise was made by the previous Government. He asked them to lay aside all party feeding and come to the consideration of this Bill like Christian gentlemen, and not pass, a law cruel in its nature on a class of men deserving of our encouragement andi support. Mr. Tawhaio said the West Coast Oommission were guilty of much trouble, and: he could not see that persons guilty of' the offences could be judges of the offence.. That was the reason he refused to act„ although appointed as one of the Commissioners. The Government had spokem of the bold policy, but he would like to know how it was to be called a bold policy, when they were afraid to liberato a mere handful of prisoners—l3(X of them —and allow them to go back to a place where there were 800 soldiers.

Sir W. Fox said the last speaker charged Sir F. D. Bell and himself with being the original cause of the trouble. The fact was that when the trouble commenced he was a most prominent member of the " peace-at-any-price" party. When the. second war broke out he was on his way to England, and when the third, war. was. proolaimed in 1868" he* was living in the Rangitikei as a private gentleman.- SirF. D. Bell stood exactly in the same, position as himself. The fact was that: the last speaker held his seat on the Commission for a considerable period. Tho> member for Thames had made a great talk about the proposed injustice of this; harsh and arbitrary law, and said therei was no precedent for such an Act. Im 1863 Sir G. Grey was Governor of tho Colony. A law was assented to by him for the suppression of the rebellion, which instituted a series of court-martials. Where were then his ideas about the liberty of the subject and all that i Here was a law suspending every men's . liberties and even endangering hia life, placing them in the hands of a courtmartial. Some years after they hadl another and more stringent Act. BoAh) these were framed to meet the particular circumstances of the day. That last Aot; actually superseded the Constitution, altogether, and yet the member for- tho Thames stood up and told, the galleries there never was such a wicked Act as that now before the House passed by any constitutional authority. This was a case such as not unfrequently occurred—a case, in which it was necessary to adopt extraordinaryprecautions for the general safety.. Now he would ask if it was only natives< that were to be considered. Were they to have no consideration for those settlers whose lives and properties were at stake?? He believed this Government would have' the satisfaction of rooting out all vestiges, of the rebellion, but the work would have* to be gone about carefully and prudentlyOne false step might plunge the colony into war. Such being the case, he askedi if it was to be a mere feeling of sentiment by which their actions were to bo controlled. He did not like the Bill; but. then they had to fade the urgent necessity that existed for it. Had the negotiations' with Te Whiti been conducted withi earnestness and activity he believed all this trouble would have been saved.

t Mr. Sheehan said this was not a party ) question ; but the last speaker madia it a i strong party question. He charged Sir 5 William Fox with having hunted down Sir Donald M'Lean. He wanted also to huafr, 3 him down, but he would have to be up : pretty early in the morning. Sir W, had told them that he was on hiswayHonXft i when war broke out, but the fact was ha left war behind him. Te Whiti had at i last found an apblogist, and he could not have found a more fitting one than Sir i William Fox. They were both fanatics—> : they were both unfair and ungenerous, i He intended to vote for the second wacU ing of the Bill. In this Bill the Govern*. , : ment were carrying out the policy of' predecessors. Secondly : If he were Native Minister, he wou,Ul Just have, brought down a similar Bill. If war broke out at present, it would be a war of extermination, and he therefore held thia was a Bill for the benefit of the natives themselves. What, however, he contended for was that it might be desirable to keep them 12 or 18 months, but when liberated, they should be liberated by itrial. If they were found innocent, and compensation deserved, let them have the' chance.of obtaining it. He believed they wdiild'be found guilty bf a minor offence, If they allowed : these people to return,, there was every prospect of war... $9 knew Te Whiti was not disposed to peace. He was in the background at present for the reason that none of his prophecies had. come to pass. If they , wished to destroy his power, they would just 'do as they were doing. He would support the Bill, and in Committee move an amendment in the direotiori he indicated. . ,; : Mr. Ide Lautour did not agree with last speaker. He believed the West Ctoasfr Commissioners were induced to look for the cause of the difficulty in a. different direction dictated by theit own political feelings. There were: two principles in life, the expedient and the right, and ha contended they should choose the right, even although the heavens Should fallThere was no reason why a short period of detention should not be provided for, but to ask power to detain them for a whole , | year was asking far too much, and the House should not agree to it. He would .'hot allow it to he said that such a_measure passed with a unanimous voice in the House, , Mr. Reader Wood said Sir George Grey was quite right in saying no such law aa this was ever brought before an indepen« dent Legislature under such circumstance® as those now existing. The Act of 1866 was passed at a time when an engagament was actually fought twenty miles out or Auckland. , There wag no comparison between the cirQumstances then and now, and in considering the question, he simply asked,would it pay? The natives who were, imprisoned, had not wanted to niaka ; war, or they'.would have done so. Thay had simply tried to make thek case AW?* • and adopted peaiQeable method open t r Q tfceifl tp, ensure this. Qn the.find* , ■ v .-'i >. !' '•

injr of their own Commissioners, the Go foment were now proposing to panisi the natives for the faults of successiv Governments. Was anything mor monstrous ever heard of ? An armed fore was required to complete the West Coas survey, and an armed force at a cost o 1(200 000 a year would be required to pro tect the settlers who might be placed 01 the land- The Colony could not afford it The question was not a party one ; it wa: one of money, Unless the natives wouli accept their reserves and allow us, withoul an armed force, to occupy the remainder, we had better stop at once where we were. We could not afford to go on keeping the natives in confinement. To keep them ir prison was likely to cause reprisals, and far more danger than could result from their release. The balance of reason was in favor of the measure of mercy for which the member for the Thames contended, and he would not vote for the Bill. The Hon. Major Atkinson said the blot on our native administration was that we had alwaws treated the natives as children. We were not afraid of them, but we respected them, and were afraid of anything which might lead to their extermination. If this Bill were thrown out It would mean war, and he would not remain an hour longer in office. It was not true that the natives had been forced to ploughing to prove their rights. "Was it not known that the late Premier had sent two messages to Te "Whiti 1 Sir G. Grey : I never sent any message to Te Whiti. The Hon. Major Atkinson : I will prove it on a future occasion. To be precise, I ■will say the late Government offered to bring the native cases before a court of law, and to pay the costs. The late Government even went beyond the limit of prudence in that offer. But Te Whiti set up an independent authority, and all his actions went in support of that position. For himself, he believed that to have used force of late years would have involved war. The day had actually been fixed when the pakehas were to be driven into the sea. We had only escaped great misfortunes by the barest chances, and he warned the House that the release of these prisoners meant, almost to a certainty, war. He believed that the House would do justice, but it would be madness to do justice by returning desperate men such a3 they had in prison to the districts. What did the fencing across the road day by day mean ? That had a meaning, and it would be well for them to study the circumstances. In 1869 matters were not a bit more critical than they are at present. As men charged with the peace of the country, he had no hesitation in saying it wa3 quite possible they had not asked sufficient power. They did not know how soon the followers of Te Whiti might resort to temporal in lieu of spiritual means for the attainment of their ends, and that would mean a very serious state of matters. He felt the responsibility so great that if he could leave the Government with any show of credit he would do it. Mr. Mos3 would vote against the Bill as it stood. Colonel Trimble briefly supported the Bill. Mr. Hall then moved the adjournment of the debate. The House rose at 1.30.