PROBLEMS TO SOLVE

New Zealand Times, Volume XLVII, Issue 10897, 11 May 1921, Page 7

PROBLEMS TO SOLVE

LABOUR DEPUTATION AND ACTING-PREMIER

UNEMPLOYMENT AND HOUSING DISCUSSED PLAIN SPEAKINC BY SIR FRANCIS BELL FUNDS, NOT WILL, LACKING

A large and representative Labour deputation. including three ladies, waited upon the Acting-Plrime Minister (Sir Francis Bell), the Minister for Labour (the Hon. G. J. Anderson), an d t* l6 Minister for Lands (the Hon. D. H. G u thr ie ), yesterday 'afternpon, with regard to the housing and the unemployed problems. The organisations represented were the Trades and Labour Council, the Labour Representation Committee, the Seamen’s Feneration, the Typographical Unipn, the Building and Furniture Trades Federations, the Carpenters’ Union, the Grocers’ Assistants’ Union, the Hotel and Restaurant Workers’ Union, the General Labourers’ Union, and ’ the Housewives’ Union

Mr P. Fraser, M.P in introducing the deputation, said that it was present as the lesult of a paragraph in the papers to the effect that the Government had resolved ’to curtail public building operations in order to find mftnev for the unemployed, and that this decision might mean a slackening in the building of workers’ dwellings. He strongly urged that if the Government had arrived at such a decision it should reconsider it, as the deputation held that the need for houses was greater than ever. In 1919 the Board of Health had estimated that there were no fewer than 20,000 houses, averaging five rooms each, or 100,000 rooms, short in the Dominion; and last year alone the population increased by 30,427, requiring, at an average of 4J persons to the house, over 6700 new houses. The Housing Department last year, however, considered. the Board of Health’s estimate excessive; and, putting the hoiilsing shortage last year at 7100 houses, it estimated that by the end of 1922 it would be reduced to 3950. The department set out to build 1085 houses this year, but that number had been now reduced to 750, of which 350 were to be built in the city and suburbs of Wellington. The number actually building, or for which contracts had been let, was 423, throughout the Dominion, and of these 143 were in Wellington. One hundred houses had been finished, of which 59 were in the vieinity of Wellington; while the CSty Council had issued, in addition, during the past year, permits to build 336 houses. There was now, he pointed out an over-production of cement, with the result that cement works had had to be closed'; and if building operations were to any great extent curtailed the stoppage of all the cement works would follow, and there' woufld be more unemployment. IMMIGRATION AND THE PROBLEM. It was, he contended, foolish to say the least of it, and criminal, to say the worst of it, to bring thousands of people into the Dominion until houses were ready and employment could be provided for them. He pooh-poohed the idea, as stated by the Alinister for Immigration (the Hon. W. 1 Noeworthy),. that homes and work were guaranteed for the .2000 . immigrants Jvbo were announced to be coming to New Zealand. Homes and employment oould .only he provided, he main tained at the expense of those already here. Sir Francis Bell said that all these people had been nominated by .relatives and friends here, who had paid money, ■ some of them years ago, for their passages. All of them had been promised passages, and the Government was engaged up to the hilt to bring them out at the first opportunity that shipping was available. Mr Fraser: If they can be absorbed into the homes of their relations it is all right. Sir Francis Bell: They will be. 1 Homes and employment have been guaranteed them.

Mr Fraser said that the Labour Party did not object to people coming into the country unless they were going to intensify the housing and unemployment problems. But if all these people were coming in, it was all the more reason why the Government housing scheme should he enlarged instead of diminished, and the co-opera-tion of the federated building trades should be sought in building houses. Mr F. Singleton, of the Building Trades Federation, said that his organisation found that men were being discharged from the workers’ homes at Miramar ; and at the same time men were being engaged to work on the Governor's residence. This was being done, though even the carpenters who were building houses could not find houses to live in. PUBLIC SERVANTS NOT RETRENCHED. Mr W. T. Young (Seamen’s Federasaid that it seemed to him that immigrants were being brought in at the very worst possible time. There was a slump, and unemployment was increasing, and report had it that there was retrenchment in the Government service, and men were being thrown out of employment. Sir Francis Bell denied that that was the case. Mr Young said that it was, at any rate, known that men were being thrown out of private employment, yet the Government was bringing all these people in. He contended that tf employment was guaranteed for these 2000 immigrants, as stated by the Minister for Immigration, that meant that 2000 .persons now employed would have to be put out to make employment for them.

Sir Francis Bell: That is incorrect; the relatives of these people, who had guaranteed them employment, are not now employing labour. Mr Young held that thousands of people would be thrown out of work iwinter; and. yet there were WOO soldiers coming out in August. He stated that, in many cases, there were two or three families living in one house, owing to the housing shortcould not get married because there were no houses for them. NO ACCOMMODATION.

Mrs Snow (Housewives’ Union) maintained that half of the, people who had guaranteed their relatives accommodation had not houses foi them. They might offer them part of a house—a room or two—but that was all. She gave cases of the hardship suffered by people because they could not get homes—one a case of a woman and three children, and another that of a man and wife with two children, living in small single rooms. She had’ just come away from a meeting of the Social Welfare Committee, she said, and she was almost appalled at the

number of unemployment cases. The first two, strangely enough, were cases of immigrants—one who came out two years ago and the other three yeans ago; both out of employment and both without houses, and living in rooms. The shortage of homes meant a great strain upon wives and mothers, and was a serious danger to health and ■morals.

Councillor Chapman (Typographical Union) stated that one immigrant who had come out recently to guaranteed employment and a home, had to pay 3ce for'a single room and the man who had guaranteed tho employment had to put off another man, a returned soldier, to take him on. The Typographical Union was now paying the soldier unemployed relief. In another case a man had walked to Wellington from Napier in search of work —.a man apparently about 35 years of age—and, being unable to get work, he had had to go into the Ohiro Home. A SURPLUS OF LABOUR. Mr J. MolCenzie (Hotel and Restaurant Workers’ Union) pointed out the very large increase in the population of the city shown by the census returns, and contended that no adequate housing provision had been made for that increase. There was a surplus of labour, and the surplus ought to be employed he urged, in finding housing for the people. Ib r the last fortnight ho had had no less than forty men every day calling at his office asking for-work, and at least a dozen of them were ex-eoldiers. ACTING-PREMIER’S REPLY PROVIDING AGAINST DISASTER. BUILDINGS OR. SCHOOLS? Sir Francis Bell, in reply, said that some of the members of the deputation had referred to the present unemployment and to, the prospect that there would be further unemployment, and that the working people of New Zealand might be without- work and without means. That might be so; and it as because it might be so that the Government was making provision. The last speaker had asked him to make provision for all the unemployed m building houses. Surely’ that was not reasonable. It was impossible. Mr McKenzie said that he did not intend it that way. Sir Francis said that he wanted to make it quite clear what the Government felt to be its. duty, and what it meant to do. But- he must say that, impressed as he was, and as every man in the country must be, by what Mrs Snow bad said ■ about overcrowding, if it was to be a question of building and only a small amount was available, schools came first. Mr Fraser: You, surely, would not say that homes would not come before schools ? ' Sir Francis Bell: I do say so—that schools oome first.

Mr Fraser: Surely, you won’t say that they come before homes ? Sir Francis Bell: You must not argue with me here. At any rate, not before I have finished what I- have to say.. DUTY OF LOCAL BODIES. ‘He wanted to state,. he added, the position of the Government clearly on this housing question. Mr Fraser was a member of the City Council; and he would point out to him that it was the business of the local bodies to build houses, and it was only because the local bodies would not do their duty that the Government was called upon to build houses. There must not be any mistake about that. He was sure he was speaking for liis colleagues as well as for himself when he said that it was the business of the local bodies, who had the power, to provide houses for their districts; and that the Government- could not by any possibility provide • houses all over the country.

Mr Fraser: Provide the money. Sir Francis Bell: Please let me have my say. It is because the local bodies will not or cannot—let ns assume -that they cannot—undertake the whole of that duty, that the Government has' of late years endeavoured to aid in tho work of providing further houses. No v the reason the local authorities give for not performing their duty—the duty of the council. of this city to its citizens—is that they have not got enough money for the purpose. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason why the Government does not extend its programme of building houses. A member of the deputation: You got the money for the war. Sir Francis Bell: I am speaking of the present. If the Government could borrow money the building of housed and schools would be the first of its operations. We cannot borrow the money. 'lth e London market is not open to us; and we are living, as 1 said to a previous deputation, from hand to mouth. Mr Fraser: How about the five million surplus that Mr Massey spoke about in Parliament ?

Sir Francis Bell: We have spent already a large amount of that for public works, and what remains we have to keep carefully to meet our obligations. It is revenue, and can only be spent on works by vote of the House. We have used as much as we oan safely use. With what remains we have to pay pensions, salaries, and interest . on our d-qbt, etc., and that with a fallI ing revenue.

LIMIT OF SAFETY REACHED. IWe have spent as much as it is safe to spend oUt of the Consolidated Fund; I and we are now without money and with only certain limited means of pro- | curing money. But, he added, when, under such conditions, a member of a | deputation like that came to the Government and suggested that, because money was found for the war, therefore the Government could borrow money now if it liked, he did not think that it was any use the Government trying to explain matters to them. Such a remark showed the uselessness of trying to make the financial position clear to the deputation. The Government knew dimly what money it could lay its hands on for the next six months. It was told, and it believed, that it was necessary for it to make provision against a possible increase of unemployment ; and for that reason what money it could lay its hands on must be kept to make provision against such increase. The Government was not stopping the houses that were build-

ing; it was not stopping the schools it was committed to; and it could not carry out retrenchment, such as Mr Young had spoken of, for the simple reason that if it retrenched in that ■ sense it would be casting upon the labour market men who were in Government employ. Air Young: Mr Coates has said that he is curtailing public works. Sir Francis Bell : Public works have been curtailed, just as houses have been curtailed; but the Government is committed to the public works which it is now carrying on, and it has not curtailed employment. Such a statement as that made by Air Young is quite incorrect. Tho Gfovernment has not retrenched in that sense; and it would, not do it because of the present position. It was a simple thing to say —“Put those men who are in the Buildings out, and put a specifio class in their places” ; but the Government was mot going to do it. It was probable that money would be required, to provide further public works and employment, and the Government was devoting all the money it could lay its hands on to that purpose. Why on earth was it supposed that it was a pleasure to the Government to abstain from expenditure of any kind ? “IF WE HAD THE AIONEY.” Air Fraser: Nobody suggested that. Sir Francis Bell: Well it is put as if we are afraid to do it —that, with the means to do it, we are refusing to do what we know would he a most popular thing. Take the case of schools a ud houses; If we had the money, there is nothing that a Government with money would be more willing to do.

Air Fraser: .Why, Air Alassey has promised the farmers to reduce taxation while the people are living in overcrowded and insanitary houses. Sir Francis Bell said that from a politician like Air Fraser better could have been expected. He must know that revenue was nob available for public works, except under certain circumstances. Work of that kind—this huge work, which the tenant paid for, and so on—was done out of borrowed money. It could not be done out of revenue. Such talk might he useful for outside, but not there. It was no use firing blank cartridges there. (Laughter.) What he was trying to emphasise, he added, was that if he and his colleagues had the money, of course, they would spend it. What did the deputation suppose influenced them but the impossibility of getting money to spend? What else were they spending it an ? They were spending it on public works and employment, and they could not get the money to do as the deputation suggested. They knew within narrow limits what money they could lay their hands on, and had to proceed accordingly. If Mr Alassey could raise a loan in London, it would ease the position; but they would have claims made upon it which would rival tho claims put before

them that afternoon. Each of his colleagues was bitterly disappointed with tho present position. Each of them was dragging at the Treasury for money ; and. none more than his colleague, the Minister for Labour. Hte (Sir Francis) felt the position more than anybody, because ho had the keys of the Treasury just now. “Yoit can have what is in it,” he told his colleagues; “but there was nothing there” ; and, though with the greatest reluctance, they bowed to the necessities of the position. ‘‘IRRESPONSIBLE?” But if the deputation which represented Labour asked him to go and spend money without regard to the unemployment of this winter; if they asked him to squander it to spend it m adv ance on houses and schools Vrhen he knew it might be required for—— Mr Singleton: Soiip kitchens 1 Sir Francis Bell: For the employment of general labour, including carpenters, but not wholly carpenters, then I should say that you competent men were irresponsible and had not the regard for the people of the country that the Government is forced to have. Air Fraser: What other industry would ,employ more men than housebuilding P Sir Francis) Bell: I don’t know, hut it is quite certain that the forty men spoken of just now could not be employed on house-building. The money, [according to our view, must be available for the purpose’ of preventing distress if distress comes; and we are told that it, is already raising its bead. I think it is exaggerated so far; but if distress comes to this country money must be available for relieving that distress. If the Government was to contract for new houses, he added, the houses cost about £IOOO to £llOO each to build ; and that meant that to build fifty bouses would cost £50,000’, which, on general labour, would keep 4000 men employed for more than a month. He wanted them to see that the GovI emment must provide for the people of the country, and not in this emergency for individuals: and that it was only because of this emergency that the Government had determined to* rigidly limit the expenditure on building. At the .present time the Government was spending on public works labour alone £300,000 a month, and the Government had not got it. There was more besides that—the capital expenditure on railroads, and other commitments. THE NECESSITY AND THE RESOLUTION. “That is the position of the country,” he said, in conclusion. ‘‘That is the necessity, and that is the resolution of the people who, for the time being, happen to be in charge. The sooner the day comes when the Treasury can find money for greatly enlarging tho house-building the better the Government will be pleased; and the sooner the local authorities wake up to tlieir duty in the matter the better the Government will be pleased.” The Hoii. G. J. Anderson also briefly replied to the deputation. It was, he said, no pleasure to him to restrict the building of houses; and there had been no restriction in the building of houses. He had done his heat to get the money ; and, he said it frankly, to his surprise the Acting-Financo Minister had given him £IO,OOO recently to build a set of houses in Dunedin. He had not expected to get the money after Sir Francis Bell’s explanation of the finances of the country. The carpenters discharged at Miramar were on day labour, he explained, and the de-. partment found it better and cheaper to do the money by contract. Contracts had been let to small men; and the department, he claimed, had built the houses cheaper than similar houses were built by private enterprise. Ho had been through a period of unemployment in New Zealand, and in his opinion it waa very much more important that a man should have respectable work, stuck as the Government hoped to give him, than any other thing" he knew of. The most desperate thing was that a man was out of work and could not see his way to support his wife and family. A member of the deputation said that skilled carpenters and builders would be thrown out of work. Surely the Government would not find them employment planting trees on the Foxton Sand dunee?

Mr Anderson: But, then, yon have to buy material build houses; and we want to use ail fih© money keeping men employed on work that will not require large expenditure on materials.

Mr Fraser thanked the Ministers for their straightforward presentation of what he must describe a.s a poor policy. The Wellington City Council, he said have attempted to do something in the way of housing; but the £IO,OOO a. year the city could borrow under the Housing Act would build less than seventy houses. They would, he felt, go away deeply disappointed so far as housing was concerned; but still, so far as unemployment went, assured that no man or woman able to work would bo without work.

Sir Francis Bell: So far as our means permit. Mr Fraser: And that is with the whclo resources of the country at your disposal. Sir Francis Bell: To the extent of the whole of our resources.