THE SESSION

New Zealand Times, Volume XLVII, Issue 10849, 15 March 1921, Page 7

THE SESSION

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY DEBATE BEGINS SHOULD MR MASSEY G@ TO ENGLAND? QUESTION UNDER DISCUSSION

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ; V ESTERDAY’S BUSINESS. Tho Legislative Council sat at 2.30 p inMORTGAGES EXTENSION. NOTICE OB NEW BILL. Tile Hou. Sir Francis Bell gave notice that to-day he would move for leave to introduce the Mortgages Extension Amendment BUI. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES. UON. U. SAMUEL B E-ELECT El). An election of a Chairman of Committees wae held. Sir Francis Bell said it gave him great pleasure to propose the re-election of tli-.' Hon. O. Samuel, who, by Crown consent of the Council, 'had filled tho position in a manner which left nothing to he desired. The motion was seconded by the non. 3. G. W. Aitken, and was carried. DECEASED LEGISLATORS. THE HON. GEO. JONES. Sir Francis Bell moved that, the Council should express its appreciation of the services rendered by the late Hon. George Jones, and -should tender sympathy to his relatives. Ha said there was t;o member whom all Avould. so sincerely miss. Mr Jones had a long association with the Council. He took his duties very seriously, and went very minutely into everything that came before him- He valued especially, his seat on the Statutes Revision Committee. Socially he was most genial and oappv in 'hie ways, and made a friend f)V evervone. He was born of pioneer parents' in 1844, and hie political career began with his election for Waamate. The Hon O- Samuel referred to the lan Mr Jones as a man with, a courage oi his convictions and one of great kindnosi of heart. „ ~ , The Hon. Sir William Hall-Jones de-. scribed him as a hard-working man, who was very attentive to his duties in the Council. Hie genial, kindly nature made Mm so loved that he would be trench, missed. Every member of tbe Council fed* that he had lost ft loving 1 personal friend. ' The motion was agreed to. SIR JAMBS PREN DERG AST. On the motion of Sir Francis Bell a similar resolution wn« passed respecting tjiie late Sir James Prendargjast, who. Sir TVancies said, was one of the most distinguished gentlemen who everserved in the Council. He was the first Chief Justice appointed by the Government of New Zealand, and it was extraordinary that the only other appointee was the present Chief Justice. Much of our legislation to-day was founded on the legislation draftee hv Sir Jamies Prendergaet when Attorney-General between the years 1867 and 1874. The Council should express its sorrow that so useiua a. life had come to an end. The Hon. O. Samuel seconded: the motion TWO FORMER MEMBERS OF THE CROWN. Sir Francis ijlell moved that the Council should record its sense of the services rendered hy two who had served aa Ministers of the Crown in the other House—the late Hon. J. A. Tole and the late Mr A. W. Hogg. This was agreed to. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY THE CALL TO THE CONFERENCE. SPEECHES IN FAVOUR. OF PRIME MINISTER GOING. The Address-in-Reply was moved by the Hon. Sir Wm. Hall-Jones, who said the Governor-General's Speech, seemed. to iat once strike the right note in referring to the need for cohesion. This point -oemd to affect the welfare of every man, woman, and child in the British Empire. Just imagine the Empire broken up into ■separate parts and left at the mercy of stronger countries 1 It would be admitted that the Government had taken ab,eolutelv the right course in calling Parjliament together to see if our Prime ■Minister should attend that conference. Other Premiers would be there, and he ■did not believe that the people would Isay that our Premier should uot attend. Iln recent years these conferences had ibecomo practical businessmen's gatherings, but none had been so important as tthat to be held very shortly. The terms ■of the message to the Prime Minister had not been announced, but Mr Lloyd George had said that* he would regard it as a calamity if the conference was deprived of the judgment and experience lof the Prime Minister of New Zealand. He hoped that Parliament would put aside all littleness and allow the Premier to go, feeling he had the moral support of the country in the great work he was about to assist in. He thought Mr Massey a very safe man, who would not commit the Dominion in any manner that might be objected to. Foreign police had been mentioned in the Governor’s Speech, and this served to indicate the importance of the conference. fit William looked on Japan as a friendly nation, and thought they had proved this during the late war. They had their ambitions and had the welfare of their people to look after. “AN ABSURD SUGGESTION.” Questions respecting' Russia also might be discussed. Then there were our cwn matters of defence and the problem of finance. The finance of the whole world was disturbed at present. He believed that Mr Massey might be able to bring forward and help the solution of financial problems, and if he could it would be a matter of great credit to the Dominion. Another important thing was shipping freights and available figures indicated that present rates should be reduced. He thought the Prime Minister was just the one to see that the matter was brought up at the conference Imperial reciprocity and industrial troubles were other problems worthy of discussion. He did not know who should represent the country except Mr Massey. It bad been suggested that tho High Commissioner should be the representative. That was an absurd suggestion. If the Prime Minister did anything wrong it was not long before he would have to answer for it at the polls. Tho High Commissioner could do anything—commit New Zealand to anything—and afterwards snap his fingers at the country. It. was not nnr of these Sunday evening meetings that hn<l the responsibility; i f was the Prime Minister and his colleagues. He had one regret. He had hoped that Sir Francis Bell might attend the conference, and he knew bow well Sir Francis would do with the men at Home, none of whom was his superior and only one his equal. In the face of the telegram from Mr Lloyd George nothing else could he done than fake steps to let tho Prime Minister so. He looked

upon the telegram as a call of JSmpire to which the country would respond. TEHM& OF TELE! ADDRESS. He moved that the address should be presented to His Excellency in the ollowing form : “May it please Your Excellency: “We, His Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Council of New Zealand iu Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our thanks to Your Excellency for the Speech addressed by you to both Houses. “We thunk you for the expression or your desire to 00-operate with the Parliament of New Zealand in its efforts to advance the prosperity of this Dominion. and to promote jjcace aud goodwill amongst its people. ; “We fully recognise the gravity or j the matters which must be considered at the coming Imperial Conference, and the necessity that the Prime Minister of New Zealand should take part in that meeting of the statesmen of the Empire ■ , , “We aspire* Your Excellency that we will co-rdiallv join with the other branch of the Legislature in making such immediate provision as may be found to be essential by reason of the .postponement of the ordinary business of Parliament until a later period or the present year. < “We join with Your Excellency m trusting that Divine Providence may guide our deliberations/' FACING A CRISIS. The seconder was the Hon. C. H. Izard, who sai-d that there could be only one person to attend the conference, and that person was our Prime Minister. Moreover, there was no nerson more capable of representing ua than Mr Massey was, and no- one more able to refute the misstatements made in the newspapers oversea and by peripatetic ex-Ministers of the Crown who must be speaking entirely without a sense of responsibility. He hoped Mr Massey would remove the impression created by an ex-Minlster of the Crown respecting the position New Zealand took up regarding other races. He trusted that when in England Mr Massey would further and assist the immigration policy. Now Zealand was facing a crisis, but if we all stood together we would emerge from at satisfactorily and gloriously. The Hon. Sir John Sinclair considered that the greatest question likely to come up was the relation of the Dominions to one another, and to the Home country. There ought to be a clear understanding on many important points relative to the status of the Dominions. Some South Africans had argued that South Africa was an independent nation which should deal direct with the League of Nations, but he contended that the League's purpose was to arbitrate in times of stress and that it should not be used for the peaceful dismemberment of the Empire. The adjournment was moved by the Hon. H. L. Michel, and the Council rose at 4.26 p.m. MUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ADDITIONAL DAYS TAKEN. TWO FIRST READINGS. The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. Preliminary business, dealt with elsewhere, was concluded by 3.30 p.m. The Hon. G. J. Anderson introduced the Shops and Offices Amendment Bill, which after a brief debate, reportd in another column, was read a first time. The Mortgage Act Extension Bill (Mr R. McCallum, Wairau) was also read n first time. On the motion of the Prime Minister it was resolved, without discussion, that on and after that dav the House should meet at 2.30 p.m. on Mondays for the transaction of Government business only; also that on and after Wednesday, the 16th inst., and for the remainder of the session Government business should take precedence on Wednesdays and Thursdays. Business being concluded, at 4 p.m. the House adjourned till 7.30 p.m., the time set down for the moving of the Address-in-Reply. At 7.30 n.m. Mr K. S. Williams (Bay of Plenty) moved, and Mr J. Craigie (Timaru) seconded the Address-in-Reply to the Governor-General's speech. The speeches on the address are published under a separate heading. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY THE DEBATEI OPENED. “AN EMPHATIC PROTEST." QUESTIONS FOR THE CONFERENCE. DOMINION DEVELOPMENT. On the House resuming at 7.30 last night, Mr K. S. Williams (Bay ol Plenty), who was received with applause, moved “That a respectful Address he presented to His Excellency the Gover-nor-General in reply to His Efcrcellency. He felt it a great honour to be called upon to move the Address-in-Reply this session, the first opened by His Excellency Admiral Lord Jellicoe since his arrival in the Dominion. He thought that the Dominion was to be- congratulated upon having so distinguished an officer in the high position, and he hoped and believed that the result of His Excellency’s influence would to increase that loyalty for which, as he had stated. New Zealand was so -well-known. The Speech from the Throne wag very brief, but he held that it was a very important one, if only for its reference to the urgent invitation extended to Mr Massey to attend the Imperial Conference in June next. Many important matters —important both to the Dominion and the Empire—were to be discussed at the gathering; and he thought that it was verv necessary that the Dominion should be represented at it by the Prime Minister, .who had a grasp of all the matters that would be brought up, and would adequately represent the Dominion. He held that it was not advisable that all the very important questions, which would bo discussed at the conference, should be made known beforehand. SUBJECTS FOR CONFERENCE. Mr Williams stressed the need for maintaining the supremacy of the British Navy. It would be a very costly matter, but we should look upon the expenditure as an insurance premium for our-liberties, our rights, and our trade. This question must be fully discussed at the conference; and among other subjects he hoped that the question of securing lower freights for produce and Imperial preference would be brought up: and that the Prime Minister, while at Homo, would take up the important question of the cause of the congestion of wool and meat at Home, and the resulting slumps. He emphasised the need for oconomy. both bv private individuals and by the Government, snying that the reduction in the price of produce must lead to a reduction in railway revenue, and in the revenue from the in-

come tax and other sources. He suggested that if economy was .necessary the economy should begun with the House itself. Members had recently increased their honorarium, and hq thought tnat the first reduction in expenditure mignt well take place there. Members of the House had recently visited the Bast Coast district, and he voiced the claims of that part of the Dominion for development. If it was not possible to complete the East Coast, railway at the present time, he urged that the district should at least be opened up by means of Toads.

ECONOMY FOR EAST COAST. The opening up of the East Coast for settlement, he held would be of great benefit to the Dominion as a whole, and of the need for better educational facilities in the baokblocks, he congratulated tho Minister for Education on hie having established the system of itinerant teachers. He hoped that steps would also be taken to provide maternity nurses for the backblocks. He was sure that til© Government would do its >best to see that the soldier-eettlers did not suffer through the present slump in the prices of produce. If it was found that they had bought their land at too high a price, he thought that “we, the people, ought to help them in the matter. He hoped that the Native Minister would make it the main plank in his platform to see that the native lands were, as far as possible, individualised and consolidated, placed in the hands of individual natives or family groups, so that the natives might be encouraged to put tho land to the best use. When the natives had a. fair opportunity to make good, he said, they made a very fair attempt to farm their lands properly, and we ought to Bee that they had every opportunity to do 60. A. planting-ground, too, should be reserved round all their pahs, so that they could grow potatoes and kumaras. UREWERA AND WAIKAREMOANA. With regard to the Urewera Country, he hoped that the Native Minister and the Minister for Lands would shortly visit the district, along with His Excellency the Governor-General, Sir James Carroll, and the Hon. A. T. Ngata, and discuss with the chiefs the best way of opening up the land for settlement. He thought that such a conference would have fruitful results The Waikaremoana hydro-electric scheme should be also expedited, and the settlement of the district facilitated. It was also necessary to preserve the forests round tho lake, not only to conserve our timber supply hut also to be sure that the very fine source of water-power should not be diminished in value, as it must be if the timber was destroyed. The natives might he willing to exchange their Lands round the lake foT blocks already acquired by the Government in tho Urove ra Country. If the native lands were individualised, as ho had suggested, he thought that the natives would have to sell part of their land in order to enable them to farm tho remainder. (Hear, heard He did not think the nntives would offer any great objection to individualisation, which would enable tho consolidation, not onlv of the native holdings but also of tlie Government holdings, fd l,e carried nut. (Applause.) SECONDED BY AN “INDEPENDENT” NOTH IMG', ' i’AKT Y C li A UA CT ER. Mr Jaines Craigie (Timaru), who seconded the motion, heartily congratulated tho mover on his able and patriotic speeoh. He agreed with what he had said as to the need for the development of the Urewera Country, and the Waiwater-

power. (Hear, hear.) He thought that it was perhaps the first time that a nonpartisan had seconded ■the Address-in-Reply. But before consenting to second it he had received an assurance that it would contain nothing of a party character ; and that being so he had felt that he could second the motion witiout any loss of his independence or of his self-respect. Ho had been returned «vt the last election oa an independent, "'ita a free hand, and therefore he was well within his rights. He thought that the presence of the Prime Minister at the Imperial Conference was very necessary, and he did not think that his going to Europe would at all endanger the interests of the Dominion. Mr Massey, if he remained here, could not do anything to maintain the price of our produce in tho world markets. Neither could that great man, Mr Lloyd GeoTge, do anything if he came out hero. We were suffering from the effects of the slump in the world markets; but the position was nothing like as bad as it had been in the seventies and eighties of the last century, and he held that we had no need for pessimism in New Zealand. NEED FOR PUBLICITY.

Duffing tli© war New Zealand had come to the front and' shown that she was one of the most live and patriotic countries in the Empire; and it was necessary that the Dominion should, be kept to the trout by a system of wise pahlicity. He was triad to know that the ex-Minister tor Internal Affairs had set up a publicity department, and he understood that it was to be in oharge of a very capable journalist. He regretted that America, which had, from a financial point of view, come best out of tb© war, should be boasting that she was going to have the strongest navy in the world. America might have the money to build the ships, but he would back the men of the British Navy against the sailors of any country in the world. We would not grudge America a strong ifcvy. We would sooner, perhaps, that America, had a strong navy than any other country. But he hoped that money would not be wasted on a race of armaments, and that any dierences that might arise between this country and America would be settled peaceably. America was our neighbour in the Pacific, and so was Japan; and he hoped that amicable relations would be maintained between ourselves and these two great neighbours. {Hear, hear.) These problems, and also the great problem of India, ■where he was sorry to see 60 much. o.lscoontent at the present time, would have to be considered at the conference. STATE SHIPPING. •Another very important question was that of shipping; and he held that it was as much the duty of the Government to see to the taking of our produce Home os well as to the conveying of oar produce on our railways here. There should be a State shipping service. (Hear, hear.) Fourpenee a pound was too much for taking our meat Home. Mr W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne): It is not 4d for taking it Home. As Boirnsfather’e "Old Bill" had said, "If you know of a better ’ole, go to it”; so he sa/id to those who were not satisfied with this country and the Bratieh Empire. "If you know of a better country or Empire, then go to it.” (Laughter and applause.) Ours was the most democratic and free country in the world. If some of these men said in Russia or Germany what they said here the'- would be shot. In America they would be imprisoned. Mr H. E. Holland (Buller): They have been shot in India. Mr Cralgie sail! that he did not etand for' the profiteer nor-for -the, shirker. He believed ‘J> tSt3 fITSMSSMat-eSt -Labour. dAroplause.

LEADER OF OPPOSITION. GRAVE FINANCIAL POSITION. "REDUCTION OF TAXATION IMPOSPOSSIBLE.” Mr T. M. IV iI ford (Leader of the Opposition) moved by way of amendment: —‘‘That this House is of opinion, that the Dominion should be adequately represented at the approaching Imperial Conference, but, in view of the grave issues before the country affecting every Department of State and important questions waiting to be dealt with, it records its emphatic protest against the lioldingup of the country's business by the prorogation of Parliament beyond the usual After the customary congratulftions to the mover and seconder of the Addres-*-in-Reply, Mr Wilford said that he diu not propose to labour the first part of his motion. The mover and seconder had very fully dealt with the need for the Dominion being adequately represented at the Imperial Conference; but he desired to stress the latter part of his motion protesting against the holding up of the country’s business by the prorogation of Parliament beyond the usual time. The great gravity of the financial position was shown by the fact that the national debt, which in 191* was under 109 millions, was now, largely owing to the war, over 201 millions. In addition there was over 150 million pounds worth of mortgages running in the country. WEALTH AND DEBT CONTRASTED. So that against the 500 million pounds worth of private wealth in the country, aa estimated by the Prime Minister, there was already a debt of 350 millions. The fact that that money was owing in the country was no comfort; for, if things were bad here those who had lent tho 150 millions had to depend upon the condition of the country for the payment of-their interest. In addition the Prime Minister had eaten up, had used np, for public services of State the whole of last year’s surplus of 2J millions. On last year’s Financial Statement he had expressed the hope that he would be able to pay it back by the end of the year; but that day he had confessed that he would not be able to do so. In view of this position, it was not right for the Prime Minister to state up and down tho country, as he had said in the House that day, 'that he hoped to be able to reduce taxation this year. The Prime Minister, he said, had confessed last session thal he did not know the difference between death duties and succession duties, nor the rates. Mr Massey: Oh, no! Tho Hon. C. J. Parr: It is an invention. Mr Massey: You hear what Mr Parr 6ays- You are stating an invention. Hr Wilford said that last session Mr Parr "had had to admit that he had moved, without knowing it, an amendment for the medical inspection of the children in the primary schools but not in the secondary schools. Mr Parr denied it. Mr Wilford added, amid protests from Mr Massey, that the Prime Minister had admitted last session that he had mixed up the taxable with assessable income: and that the Prime Minister had not dared to take land compulsorilj for soldier-settlement, and in that way he had put 22j millions ("Ob, oh!”) into the hands of the big landowners of this country. Mr Alassey: We have spent no 22* millions on soldier-settlement. Air Wilford : No: that was a slip that anybody could make. (Laughter.) He referred to tha 22! millions spent _ on

soldier-settlement and repatriation gener ally. The Prime Minister claimed that that was a national asset, just as he claimed that the 121 millions spent on land for soldiers was a national asset But such a statement was absurd. Ills price was too high for the men to pay interest on. and Mr Outhne had promised to cate the position for the men. Mr Guthrie: Owing to the fall m the price of produce. “PRIME MINISTER NOT GAME.” Mr Wilford said that the Prime Min. ister was not game to table a return showing the names ot the men from whom land bad been bought for soldier-settle-ment the then taxable value of the land,’and the price paid for it in each ta 'Ph e Prime Minister said that he was. Mr Nos worthy and Mr Gnthne: You can get them all lor a shilling; and other interruptions. Mr Wilford: Oh. yes; you have got your chorus going. (Raugliter.) I know the Prime Munster well enough to know that when a speech doesn’t worry him he keeps quiet. Hen. members can see that he can’t keep still and can’t help interrupting. (Laughter.) Mr M a s.-o v : It is last year s speech you are making. -Laughter.) REDUCED TAXATION? Mr Wilford said that ho did not know what the surplus this year was going to be —whether five millions or eight. But with falling prices for products, falling values of imports, and therefore falling revenue, it was absurd for toe I*nnrt Minister *to say that he could reduoe taxation in the coming year. Mr Massey: I say }t now You know nothing about it. {Laughter.) Mr Wilford said that he knew Ui® Finance Minister would not be to reduce taxation. Banks were calliuc in money out on overdraft. In■terest was going up. Kverybody knew that if any private company could get a million it coukl lend it out now at T per cent, on the best security; and as the honourable member for the Ba.- of Plenty had said, men who hat guaranteed loans for soldier-settlers were being pressed by the banks in som*

('«:st>v He could not qxiote the wholo of tlio “Auckland Weekly }sews" on the shortcomings oi the Pnnic Minister us Minister for ltailways. Air Massey: -Wliat about the a ex: Zealand Timet)’’ on. Mr AV ilford ? (Laughter.) . . 1 Air Wilford: The Prime Minister a i replv is always a “tu quoque.” that is tlio extent of his initiative. (Laugb.ter.) , The '‘Weekly A T fi«” urged the need for bigger railway workshop© and reorganisation, and that the shortage or railway stock xvas notorious. Hut this xvas not remediable without money, and if the Prime Minister had carried the Death Duties and Succession. Duties Bill years ago, he would havo had the money. iLa lighter.) Referring to the Publio Service, he stated that what xva-. wanted xx-as not a reduction in the Public Service, but better co-ordination and simplification. The Prime Minister had set up a Commission to look alter the Public Service, and now he proposed to set up a Commission to look alter the Commission. (Daughter.! Mr Massey. That is all you know about it. (Laughter.) IX 1909 AND NOW. Mr Wilford: How can I know if you keen it darks (.Laughter-) He added that he did not object to the Prime Minister attending the Imperial Conference ; but he did object to the prorogation of Parliament beyond the usual date. He quoted from Mr Massey e speech xvhen he moved a similar resolution in 1909, that it -was an insult to the country to say that with a million people there was not one able to carry on the Government in the -absence of the Prime Minister, and it did not say much for the capacity of the other Cabinet Ministers; and he annunciated at length the reasons, financial and otherwise stated by Mr Massey, against Hie prorogation ot Parliament. Mr Massey: Imitation is tho sincerest form of flattery. (Laughter.) Mr Wilford said that he did not deny that the forthcoming Imperial Conference was much more important than that of 1919. He did not oppose the Prime Alinister attending the .Conference: but he very strongly opposed the lengthy prorogation of Parliament. (Applause.) "NO NEW GROUND.” HOW W. DOWN I E STEWART REPLIES. The Hon. W. Dowuie Stewart said the Leader of the Opposition in bis speech had not dealt very much with hie amendment. He had, in fact, touched on matter which had. been gone over in the House again and again. He had gone to some trouble -to demclistrate obvious points. And eurely the House wae not concerned at the moment with those points. As to the amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition if all that had been said w-as all that could be said in favour of it the sooner they got on to the amendment by the member for Buller the better, for that amendment contained principles and questions grave and difficult, which migfiS well be discussed in the House and to which the House could well devote a good deal of time. Mr W. A. Veiteh (Wanganui): Yes, that is your line We know exactly the reason for that! Mr Wilford had mentioned the need for tackling the Customs tariff, and that item alone was one which must await the return of the Prime Minister. It could hardly be left to a young and inexperienced Minister. . Mr Atmore: Couldn't the Prime Minister give the office to another? An immense responsibility was Involved in the representation at the coming conference. The Prime Minister had said it would be the most important conference he or any New Zealand Premier had ever attended. He thought the other Dominions looked at it in that light. If the issues to come up were so great, it was right that we should be represented by our Prime Alinister. The importance of the conference arose fi*om the extremely acute developments that had taken place since the xvar. Perhaps the most important question raised this session was that asked by the member for Avon on this point. He knew that the member for Avon had given great study to' this. . Liberal members (laughingly): Bouquets for Labour. The Prime Minister: Why not? Mr Veiteh : Bouquets for benefactors! The present trend of opinion was that some method of continuous consultation must be evolved. Some discussion had arisen as to how far the Prime Minister should declare himself before he left for England; but while a general outline might bo asked for it would be unfair to ask for any detailed view on such probleme as the Anglo-Japanese alliance and so on. Views on such /problems would depend on the very latest information. To express a view now might seriously embarrass him when the fuller informs* tion became available. He hoped the House would unanimously adopt the motion of the member for the Bar of Plenty and send the Prime Minister to the conference.

Mr T. K. Sidey (Dunedin South) moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at 10.5 p m.