DEFENCE COMMISSION

New Zealand Times, Volume XLIII, Issue 9961, 3 May 1918, Page 6

DEFENCE COMMISSION

COLONEL GIBBON CALLED training and camp arrangements. CHIEF OF STAFF DEFENDS PRESENT SYSTEM. At yesterday’s sitting of the Defence Expenditure Commission <?olone] Charles M. Gibbon, Chief of the General Staff, was called upon to give evidence. Sir Robert Anderson presided, Mr C. Rhodes being also present. Colonel Gibbon stated that he■had been Chief of the General Staff since September 3rd, 1914. He was a regular of tiie British Army, his regiment being the Royal Irish Fusiliers and he was employed on the Imperial General Staff. Tire colonel gave an account of his military experience in dhtail from 1831. Ho had joined the Fusiliers in 1893, and had seen active service in South Africa and Lidia. In the first instance Colonel Gibbon gave evidence regarding the present period of training, which is reported elsewhere. MEN WITH PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE. Replying to questions, Colonel Gibbon stated that pll men. irrespective of previous experience other thahfat the liont during the present svnr, had to undergo tho same period of training in the New Zealand camps. The importance of haying Territorials in tho ranks with civilian recruits could not be overestimated. Tho experience of the Territorials had much to do with the rapidity with which the civilian recruits picked l up their training in camp. The bringing in of the .Territorial recruits separately and training them apart from tho civilian recruits would forgo a great advantage. In the Territorial Force just now there could not be uniformity. Some Territorials were receiving more training than_ others—those residing in town Territorials employed in essential industries were excused large portions of their training. Jt would be impossible to devise a system whereby the Territorial recruits would come into camp and each man start at the stage of training he had already achieved. Groat importance was attached to a uniform system of the. training of all men. It was essential that the course in the training, camps should'be absolutely complete. .-It was considered that the period of training in camp for men who had been through tho Territorial Force was an absolute minimum to secure efficient results, and, it was only regretted that others who had not had the training dould.net be put through a longer period. Even the original Expeditionary Force, the main body, which was carefully picked from tho most efficient Territorials, had to Undergo a period of some four or five months’ training in Egypt before it was considered fit for active service. In training of the present war great stress was laid on the importance of physical training and subsequently of bayonet training. Under the present and past conditions of training in the Territorial Force it had been impossible to give proper graduated training in those sub. jects. Consequently, if the recruits from the Territorial Force were brought into camp later then their civilian comrades, their training would suffer enormously to the subsequent detriment of efficiency in the trenches at the front., x SPIRIT OF DISCIPLINE.

The most important' subject to which attention was devoted in camp was the inculcation of the spirit of discipline, This really meant the fostering of the soldierly spirit in a unit, getting all the men to band together and to play the game. It would be very difficult to secure a good soldierly spirit in 'a unit which was made up of men who came into camp at different times. The training staff was at the present time very small, and in the earlier part of the war it was extremely limited. If a proposal were adopted to bring a i draft into camp in two portions—Territorial recruits and civilian recruits separately—the result would bo to increase the difficulties of training twofold. Such a procedure would entail at least doubling the training staff and at the same time equal efficiency could not possibly be obtained since it would be more difficult to supervise the work and to detail the training progressh ely to fit in with all stages of knowledge. The value of the Territorial system could not he overestimated. It alone enabled New Zealand to raise and send away the Expeditionary Force to Samoa and Egypt within a few days and weeks respectively of the outbreak of war. It alone enabled the Dominion to raise and train men to the extent achieved. Now Zealand throughout the war, by reason of her Territorial Force and system, had been able to honour every demand made upon her and to fulfil every promise and undertaking. Certain changes in the training of the Territorial Foret would have to be considered at the end of the war. The training and experience of officers now serving abroad should he available to initiate the changes contemplated. Colonel Gibbon said he was in favour, after the war, of large camps, in which Territorial Force recruits at least would undergo a period of four months’ training - in their eighteenth, year. The question of how the training of the Territorial Force units would best bo carried out was being further considered. Large camps were undoubtedly more efficient as regards administration and training results. They were also more economical in expenditure and in personnel required for tho staff. At present ho had not completed his examination of the problem as regarded size and location of camps. The whole subject of afterwar organisation was still under most careful consideration. He was of opinion that it would be -unwise to put forward a scheme 'piecemeal before the problem had been studied as a whole. TERRITORIAL CAMPS. The witness went on to explain that small camps for Territorial soldiers, had been instituted to reduce tho retrain on civil employers and employees engaged in essential industries. The camps woro as large - as was compatible with easy access by tho men attending them., The present system of small district concentration camps in place of unit camps Had boon dictated by war conditions. Ho was strongly of, (.pinion that good value was obtained from tho Territorial Force camps, small as they wero ( and that tho value of the training and discipline obtained fully Justified tho expenditure involved. Ho had no knowledge of Toxtitorial Force camp

sites having been selected without the Assistant-Director of Medical Services of the district being consulted. Groat care was taken to submit all proposals to the medical and sanitary authorities. CONFERENCES. Conferences at General Headquarters were attended by officers commanding districts and their general staff officers at least once a year. At these conferences all districts were represented, and many subjects were discussed. In practice the training policy for tho forthcoming year was decided. In the early part of the war he used frequently to take short trips to the districts, but now that war w'ork in general and the Expeditionary Force camps had grown to such an extent, he delegated his mspecfponal work in districts to 1 his Director of Military Training. Lieutenant-Colonel Sleeman. Ho accepted full responsibility for the control of the camp s and for the action of tho camp staffs and reinforcements. He had to see that policy, orders, and instructions laid down and issued by all branches at headquarters were, adhered to and carried out. He could not, however, be responsible for mistakes or errors in camp which might occur through failure or delay in issue of orders or instructions by other branches at headquarters. He considered that all heads of branches should visit tho training camps from time to time to discuss with the Damp Commandants the problems connected with their respective branches. Ho was always glad to be present at such conferences and to save a second discussion with himself. -The Camp Commandants ■were responsible to him for the control and administration of their respective camps. 'The chief instructor of each arm of the saw ice was responsible to him for the training of his respective arm, and for tho control of the instructors placed under him. STAFF OFFICERS.

He considered that, as far as his branch was qonoerned, all possible steps were taken to train staff officers for appointments after the war. He was informed that of twenty-eight New Zealand Staff Corps officers now in the Dominion, only eight did not actually hold appointments at general headquarters, on district staffs, or in the training camps. Tile eight were employed as group officers. The appointment of group officer was a very responsible one, and involved considerable staff work. Ho was satisfied that as far as the general staff ofidhe training camps were concerned, the New Zealand Staff Corps officers under Bis control were being nsed to tho best advantage. It must not be forgotten, however, that many officers who had been designated for general staff work after the war were still at the front, where they ■ were learning in the best possible school. STANDING ORDERS. As to Standing Orders, Colonel Gibbon said they were added to or amended from time to time as might become necessary by publication in camp routine orders. Ho would like to bring out a more frequent issue of a now edition of Standing Orders brought up to date, but tho difficulty was the enormous amount; of work entailed in the preparation for the * press. The time and labour involved was incredible. It was hoped that a new edition would be ready shortly. CAMP COMMANDANTS. A Camp Commandant had power to control all officers and men in his camp in accordance with military law and such regulations as were in force in New Zealand. In case of emergency ho could act on his own initiative in excess of powers so granted. If a recommendation of a Camp Commandant were not approved by tho branch or department concerned, he could lay the matter before witness for further discussion with the branch concerned. Finally, he had power to place the matter Before tho general officer commanding for decision. Ho had discretionary powers* in regard to urgent sanitary work, settlement of claims for damage to private property during training up to £5, disposal of canteen funds, etc., but expenditure involving more than £IOO was referred to tho general officer commanding. In tho opinion of witness the present system of obtaining authority for expenditure was preferable to giving the camp commandants greater spending powers, which would of necessity turn them into accounting officers also. FEATHBRSTON AND TRENTHAM. Tbo chair; “Why are soldiers trained partly at Trentham and partly at Feathers ton ?”—So fax as training was required, Colonel Gibbon said, ho would prefer greatly that tho training of tho infantry should be carried out at one camp only, and that inter-camp changes should not be necessitated; but in the circumstances he did not consider there was any possibility of avoiding tho exchange. Trentham camp was not capable of holding all infantry in training at one time, and to extend tho accommodation would be impracticable. Iw 1915, owing to force of circumstances, from 6000 to 7000 men were handled in tho camp, but it was not desirable to repeat tho experience of that year. In, any case, tho Royal Commission of 1915, and nnlv SurgeonGeneral Henderson, vetoed any permanent extension of the carfp. Although Trentham Camp, on paper, was capable of containing 4500 men, inclusive of staff in tho lieutenant cailip and 2000 in tho canva s camp, yot, it would bo quite impracticable to' work tho camp for more than a few davs at such a pressure: The best arrangement, probably, would be largo camps each coptaimng 4500 men, and only separated hy a distance of some halfmilo. These camps would have in common a large rifle range, adequate training and manoeuvre ground central stores, records, etc. The moves from ono to another of the existing camps were valuable from a training point of view. In reply to a question by the chairman the witness said that h 0 did not think it would be advisable to have a camp m the South Island. He would llke ,A see f, - r ; rcp n to Provo that it would bo an art of economy. FIELD ALLOWANCES.

' Tho chairman: “I s it a fact that hv a general order issued on April Ut 1917, a supply officer or at ft camp of over 4000 men is entitled to draw 5s per diem field allowance irrespective of % rank, while if tho number of men m tho camp decreases to loss than 4000 tho supply officer or quartermaster reverts hack to field allowance acordmg to rankP” Colonel Gibbon explained that tho field allowance w R3 g 8 p Cr day when filling the following positions provided their rank did not entitle thorn to a higher rate; —Brigade-major, staff captain, brigade staff, quartermaster, supply officer, camps 4000 and over • A.D.O. and orderly officer to brigade

and higher commanders; and officers of Divisional Headquarters and Headquarters, N.Z.M.R. The size of the camp did net affect the rate of field allowance for quartermaster. It did affect the supply officer. Early in March t]ie Camp Command at Trentha.in asked for a ruling as to whether the allowance of his supply officer was to fluctuate according to actual numbers in camp. Tho final ruling of the Adjutant-General on April 11th, 1918, was that pending revision of field allowances the claim should' he paid as the general order was undoubtedly iiv tended to apply to Featherston or Trenthaxn camp. The Director of Financial Services had issued instructions accordingly. A ' grooming allowance of Is 6d a day was authorised for mounted officers whilst in camp. This, he understood, was . given to cover the incidental expenses which were involved in connection with tho maintenance of an officer’s horse and saddlery. The minimum number of riding horses were maintained in camps for the officers whose duties necessitated their being mounted practically every day. Tho number :of mounted officers for whom horses vlcre now kept in Trentham camp was 11. The number in Featherston and subsidiary camps apart Mounted Rifles and Artillery instructors was 15. Other officers whose duties occasionally necessitated their being mounted, indented for horses from Mounted Rifled, Artillery, or Army Service Corps. He did not consider that it would be advisable or desirable to reduce tlie number of riding horses on charge to officers further, nor did ho think such action would lead to an actual reduction of the number of horses required in camp. As it was, be did not consider that officers used their horses sufficiently, and they wasted much valuable time in walking that might be saved by riding. It horses had to be requisitioned for every time they were wanted ho would be able to get officers on them even less than at present. OFFICERS FROM ABROAD. “About thirty quartermaster-ser-geants are said to have arrived from military training grounds abroad a few weeks ago, having been specially trained in guards’, regiments’, and quarter-masters 1 duties. Is it true they are being sent back at once without having been given an opportunity to instruct others here, and leaving behind them men who could do similar work on board transports, but who have never been -away at all?” —“Up to the present non-commissioned officers have been selected from the reinforcements and trained as company sergeante-major. During the period of .training of the company to which they 'belong they aro very fully occupied in their administrative duties. On arrival at Sling they are no longer required as quartermaster-sergeants, and as they are found to he very rusty in training work they have been usually reverted to the rank of private. On this being reported to How. Zealand it was considered that not only was it hard on the non-commissioned officers concerned, but also that there was useless effort and expense involved in training men especially for these administrative duties. Accordingly, in June, 1917, a cable was sent to the New Zealand Expeditionary Force Headquarters in London, asking that suitable men be sent out to act as permanent company quartermaster-ser-geants. Tho men asked for eventually arrived towards the end of March, and are being posted to companies. The reinforcement non-commissioned officers they displace will be transferred to various drafts as ordinary non-com-missioned officers. Tho idea is that the permanent quartermaster-sergeants will, on arrival in the United Kingdom, he transferred to take charge of returning drafts of returning soldiers to New Zealand. On arrival hero they will again he posted to reinforcement companies.”

Tho witness supplied a list of officers now serving as members of camp staff, or instructors at Trentham and Featherston, showing who had been at the front. MUSKETRY TRAINING. “How many men went away from New Zealand untrained or not fully trained in musketry?”—“Of 17,800 infah try who embarked from New Zealand with the 24th to the 30th Reinforcements, inclusive, 581 men did not fire their musketry course on the range with tho draft with which they embarked. Some of these men had, howbver, fired with previous drafts—detention prisoners, men from hospital, etc. This would reduce the number who did not tire. Further, the reports from which this information was taken, woro compiled some days prior to embarkation, and it was often impossible to take out these men. But oven with the full numbers, it only amounts to just over 3 per cent. Even the 581 men did not go away quite untrained in musketry, although they did not actually lire ou tho range. It is not considered that a total of a dozen infantry altogether has gone away with those drafts without some instruction in preliminary musketry. As regards men who have gone away partially trained in musketry, several drafts have been dispatched before due date in order to moot shipping requirements. Also drafts which have been short owing to changes in establishments, shortages on'mobilisation, and to sickness, isolation, etc., have been completed from junior drafts. In such instances musketry training has suffered in common with other branches of their training. But this was unavoidable under the circumstances. Tlie men regarding whom complaints have been mainly received are cooks and company quartermastersergeants. Reinforcement cooks have now been replaced as far as possible by ■permanent cooks in camp, but tho great difficulty is to find sufficient numbers. Where permanent conks are short, men must ho taken from the Reinforcements. There is no alternative, as the men must bo fed. Company quartermaster-sergeants are now being found from returned men. These two sources of complaint have, thci’ofore, been met. To produce more detailed information than that given would entail an exhaustive search of individual files, rolls, registers, and records. This would take several clerks a very long time to complete. WEEK-END ARRANGEMENTS. Questioned as to camp week-end 'arrangements, Colonel Gibbon said they had worked well until tho . Sunday trains were stopped. The final leave of men proceeding to Lyttelton and thence to other parts of the South Island w«, now so arranged tliat they wore duo back in camp on Tuesday instead of on Sunday or Monday morning.

Tho Commission adjourned until todav.