HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

New Zealand Times, Volume XLII, Issue 9716, 19 July 1917, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

DEBATE ON THE ADDRBSS-IN- . REPLY. SPEECH BY HON W. D. S. MACDONALD. The II o use of Representatives met at 2130 p.m. yesterday, the Speaker (Sir F. W. Lang) in the chair. - SIX O’CLOCK CLOSING. - Petitions bearing some 6600 signatures were presented in favour of 6-oclock cVsing of hotel bars. A BILL INTRODUCED. Mr T. A. H. Field (Nelson) introduced the Nelson Harbour Board Empowering Bill, which was read a first time and referred to the Local Bills Committee. THE ADDRES'J-IN-KBPXT. Resuming the debate on the Address-in-Keply, the Hon. W- D, S. MacDonald (Minister for Agriculture, Industry end Commerce) said with reference to the war that he hoped that no section- of the community in the Dominion would say "Enough" until a decisive victoryhad been attained tor Britain, the Empire and the Allies. (Hear, hear.) ihey must not yield to the Huns, but work and fight on to the end, (Hear, hear.) All industries and all producers throughout the country had, he claimed acted with complete loyalty to the Empire throughout the war. The commandeering of many, if not most, of the pnmnrv products of the country for imoAial supply purposes had been earned ant on the whom with very little tuc tion or difficulty. The impression had canned ground in Isbw Zealand that insulated ships had been diverted from /tho country to suit the interests ot certain trusts. He held that that was not the ease, but ho held also that the shipping business wanted watching very keenly at the present time. The whole of the shipping, practically speaking, had fallen into the hands of large combines. and although in many they were flying the British flag for purposes of convenience to themselves, lie was not very sure whether they were doing their best for the Empire or tor the shareholders they represented. Hr R. McCallum (Wairau): That is what they are doing." _ They had to see to it. said Mr MacDonald. that the best was done tor the Empire in regard to shipping, and that the shareholders' part was only a secondary consideration. (Hear, hear.) He thought they should look atter their own shipping affairs; and that, he believed. was coming to be the opinion lof the great majority of the people throughout the country. (Hear, hear.) X ex , te the war in importance, both here and at Home, was the question ot food supplies and the cost of Irvin-, and he contended that the Government had done its duty in regard to those matters. They had fixed the pnec o corn at 5s 10d a bushel. He hoped soon to be in a position to say definitely whether that was to be on truck or f.0.b.; and by fixing that price absolutely the Government was also fixing absolutely the price of bread throughout New Zealand. They hoped to be able to fix those prices and yet to give a fnir return to the wheat-growers of the Dominion’ 1 Dealing with the butter** Jew the Minister declared that if the Government had not stepped in in the middle of last year the price of mi k and butter in the chief centres would have gone to famine height. Butter m a. verv few weeks would have gone up to 2s 6d a Pound. Mr Wilkinson: "Nonsense! and interruption. A member: “Give him a chancel, Mr MacDonald, continuing, said that includiuG the butter-fat levy- the farmers were getting Is 7Jd a lb tor their butter-fat. and the levy was all going back to the industry. , . Mr Wilkinson: ‘The cheese factories an- paving it.’’ _ A member: "It is robbery I Another member: "Give film » "Aren’t they satisfied with the price?" asked Mr MacDonald—"ls "id a lb. an.l only a Id levyTo his mind that was not a terrible injury to anybody connected with the trade (Hear hear.' Yet the Government were told that they were robbing the poor farmer and the women and children I (Hear, hear.)

“GIYB IT THEM!” The monev. he repeated, was all going back into the industry, and the Government were not taking any taxation at all from the people. (“Hear, hear.” and “Give it them! ) It was not a tax, but a levy to establish an equalisation fund, and if anything was left over when the equalisation was accomplished ■ it. would go back to those who had paid it. A member: “Was no alternative to the levy suggested?” Mr MacDonald: “There was no alternartive -suggested, except that they should get what they liked to ask.”

("Hear, hear” and laughter; "Oh! Oh I” and “No; nonsense!”) A member: "Why didu t they purchase the butter f” Mr MacDonald; The Government could have purchased the butter at that time at Is Sd a lb and sold, it to tho public at 2s a lb, but they were not going to do that.” ("Hear, hear. and considerable dissent from member* l>ehind the Minister.) Mr T. M. Wilford (Hutt): "Take my seat and face them.” (Hear, hear, and laughter.) .... , Mr MacDonald saia that he recognised, of course, that there wore certain anomalies in the scheme, but he doubted if any law had ever been passed without anomalies in it. (Hear, hear.) ■V member: It is not a law! Mr MacDonald replied that Parliament was not in session at the time tho levy was imposed, and that it was impossible for the Government to do other than they did. But two judges of the Supreme Court had said that it was lawful, and that was all he knew about it. (Hear, hear.) The only thing he regretted was that Mr Massey had not been able to arrange for tho Horae Government to purchase the whole of tho butter supply. It was a pity that, because of the shipping difficulty, so much butter was still held in the country-. Mr J- Vigor Brown (Napier): "The speculators hold it!” ("Hear, hear.” and laughter.) A SAVING OF £1,380,000. The Government, continued Mr MacDonald, had gone into the matter very thoroughly, and had done their best. (Hear, hear.) They had touched every commodity—wool, meat, cheese, hides, sugar, and so on. Sugar was £6 a ton cheaper in New Zealand than in Australia: and by fixing the price tho Government had saved tho country over £BO.OOO. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of setting up State meatshops in Wellington, the Minister stated that butchers in Wellington were soiling meat over the counter at a price that the Government could not cheapen. It was the cost of delivery that ran up the price in Wellington. On the main items in regard to which tho Board of Trade had fixed prices, the resulting saving to the country was £1,380,000. (Hear, hear.) In Britain the (Government had had to control food supplies. In Now Zealand they bad not come to that .stage yet, but they knew where they were drifting to, and it all depended upon the number of men who had to leave the country what they would have to do. They had no desire to deal hardly with any section of tho community. (Hear, hear.) They sought to deal justly, so far as possible, with all —nob to cause disunion and dissension, but to treat all ■with substantial justice, and bo enable all to move with concentrated effort to strike the last blow that would win the war. (Hear, hear.) ■ That was their aim at the present time. (Hfear, hear.) THE BIGHT THING BY THE SOLDIERS. Referring to soldier settlement, the Minister said that all classes had gono to fight for their country. Men from every trade and industry had gone to fight for them, so that when members were continually harping upon the onC question, the land, they were not dealing with the whole of the soldiers who would be coming back. If the Government were to purchase land at px-esent tremendous prices for all returned soldiers who- wanted it, also building materials, and stock at the prevailing high prices—sheep at £2 a head; cattle at £l4 a head that used to be £4—they would be courting absolute disaster, unless very great caution was exercised in dealing with the matter. He wanted to sav that the whole of the people of the country were absolutely unanimous in tho desire to do the right thing ■by the soldiers when they returned to the country. (Hear, hear.) And he asked .that during the remainder of tho session they would concentrate their efforts in the House to do their best for those who had done their best for Non? Zealand and for the Empire. (Hear, hear.) Ho hoped, with all of them, that out of the present tragedy of strife and death would come the golden dawn of a glorious victory and a lasting peace, (Applause.) THE COST OF LIVING.

Mr H. Poland (Ohinemuri) characterised the Minister’s speech as one which was manly in the extreme. While he svmnathised with the Minister in defending the butter-fat tax he held that many farmers were not receiving a square deal. The good work done by thn Minister in establishing State meat shops was appreciated. It was a boon to householders, and moreover no loss to the meat producers. The Board of Trade was not grappling properly with tho cost of living. Soldiers’ wives were left struggling with tho high prices. He quoted the case of one woman living on Is a day for herself and Is fid a day tor each of two children, while her husband, lately seriously wounded, was at the front. The weekly expenses of this -woman were: 10s rent tor half a house, 3s for milk. Is gas, 4s wood and coal, 2s 6d baker, 3s fid vegetables, 10s 2d groceries, 6s butter, and 6d papers. This was the way soldiers’ wives were forced to live. They had to beg from the Government and from patriotic societies. This should not be. The married man, who went to the front, should be able to leave knowing that his wife would be as well provided for as if he were with her. Something must bo done immediately by the Government. CONSCRIPTION OF WEALTH. The Government had brought in compulsory service, but they had rot brought in the compulsory taking of wealth. The Government was still praying that the war would end so that they need not take that step. Something bad been done, it was true. The excess profits tax waa a more bagatelle. D wealth were conscripted then justice could bo done to the men returning. ORGANISING LABOUR. The Government had not organised labour to meet the drain of reinforcements. The thousands of fit men engaged in essential industries could bo replaced by those who had been rejectfed as medically unfit. If this bad been done the Second Division would not be called on for another 12 months. He knew of a farmer worth .£20,000 who had secured exemption for his son to look after his farm. He had read with disgust of the appeals made all oyer the country hv some farmers for their sons. (Hear, hear.) One farmer’s son drove about’in a motor-car all the week, and was drunk three days of the week. A member j "Goo<i on bun. (Laughter). That man waited about three years and was then called up. He immediately appealed tor exemption as he was engaged in managing hi s uncle s farm oi something. While this was being done the widow had to send away her last son and a husband leave his wife in want. The Government had not taken stops to organise labour, and the result was chaos. OVEEWOE , k;BD-

"It seems to me.” continued _ Me “that the Minister 'or Defence h „ had far' too much V. do during the past ten months in h:s capacities 'if Prime Minister and Defence Minis.er. No man could properly carry heavy duties. I have no time for him as an administrator, but he has had too much to do latelyA member-. - Well, how have you xo time for him?" Mr Poland : “I don't think he has been loing his duties satisfactorily in the eyes of the country. (Hear, hear.) He has been so keen as an Imperialist that he has been sending far more men than has bee nrequired." He had come to the conclusion that the Dominion had been sending more men than was necessary. The Minister had practically admitted this, because he had allowed surplus

reinforcements to be utilised for special purposes. .. . , , Sir James: "I did not make an; such admission.” Mr Poland: “I say you did. The fact was that so many men were being sent that the casualties were being increased, more men had to be sent to make up tor this, and there was a big '' dealt at length with the anomalies in the New Zealand war pensions system, and stated that I*l some respects the pensions were lower than the British scai-e. A sergeantmajor in England, for example, was entitled, if disabled, to a pension of JS2 2s 6d a week, whereas in New Zealand he would only get 35s a week. ‘‘HAMMERING A DEAD DOG.”

Mr G. V. Pearce (Patoa) said that at the beginning of the war broad in France was sold -at 8d the 4lb loaf, and it was still at that price; whereas in England broad was old the 41b loaf at the beginning of the war and was now Is a loaf, ‘i'ho French Government had bought wheat ahead all over the world, and had subsidised the farmer* to encourage them to grow wheat. -Vt first the Government made a great profit, as they bought wheat so cheaply i but now there was a loss, and that loss was made up by the general taxpayer. Ho suggested that some such system should have been adopted to keep down the price of butter in New Zealand, lie was strongly in favour of keeping down the price to the public. The only question was as to the way it was done. He quoted a letter from a friend, who stated that on 137 i acres he had produced 1700 pounds of butterfat, and on his net income of J 5312 the ‘‘butter-fat tax” had amounted to ,£53. That showed, he wrote, what a lot of fools were governing New Zealand now. (Laughter.) Mr Pearce did not think, however, that he need say anything more about the “butter-fat tax.” It seemed, to him that it was “like hammering a dead dog.” (Hear, hear, ana laughter.) . , ■ WAE FINANCE.

Dealing with the question of war finance, he urged that they should not seek to raise a. loan in the Old Couu try wiic'.i Britain waa borrowing in America: and he held that the.soonoi they raised another war loan in New Zealand the better. Pensions probably would cost them .£1,000,000 a year, Mr C. J. Parr (Eden): "More than that." Mr Pearce contended that the pensions should bo paid out of taxation, but that the war should be paid tor out of a loan. If they paid for the war out of taxation, the result would be very serious tor New Zealand. They must have money to develop the country, so that they' could increase their production after the war. Therefore, he urged that they should raise a loan to pay for the war and set up, not a 75-yea'r sinking fund, as at present, but a SO to 32-year sinking fund. Mr Parr; "Not long enough.’ Mr D. Buick (Palmerston North); “Make it 100 years." (Laughter.j Mr Parr: "The war is being fought for future generations." . • ' Mr Pearce estimated that tho interest and sinking fund on the war loans would cost them .£2,000,000 a year, and that with the .£1,000,000 for pensions, would mean that for 30 years the war would cost New Zealand .£3,000,000, or .£90,000,000 in all. There had been a great deal of talk about the war pro. fits made by the farmers and others; but, though some of them might bo making money at the present time, they would have to pay it back in taxation, and ultimately he thought that nobody would make anything out of the. war. He waa against the profits tax; and, as a general thing, he was on principle against an export tax. But, as a levy to get at war profits, he thought it was the only way to have got at them. (Hear, hear.) He thought they ought also to tax extravagance and luxury. The British Chancellor of tho Exchequer had said that extravagance waa treason, and there had been a great deal of extravagance in New Zealand. He thought a progressive income tax also a correct way to raise the money in New Zealand, if, necessary. j SIX O’CLOCK CLOSING. *

Eeferring to the agitation for six :: o’clock closing, Mr Pearce maintained that that agitation was largely caused by the; fact that the Government had) done nothing to keep down extrava- ■ gance in the country. The people felt,: therefore, that the waste of money oy liquor should be stopped; and in his' district it was not the prohibitionists; who were moving in that matter, but; the moderate men. He would support 1 ; six o’clock closing on this conditio../ that the loss should fall, not on the; tenants,' but on tho owners of the; licenses—in the case of tied houses, the] big brewers. The value of the tiedhouse licenses of which the brewers had a inonopolv, had gone up 10 to 15 per cent, in the last few years, and they wore the men to bear the loss and who could pay additional taxation. Mr Vigor Brown: "The brewers don’t want a monopoly. They would give anyone a license to-morrow, if ’you altered the law. The brewers would give free trade in licenses."

Mr J. M. Dickson (Chalmersd Paid the demobilisation of the New Zealand Forces was a big problem to be faced by the Government, but he was sure that when the time came it would be given proper and adequate consideration. He oould not applaud the Government for its efforts to lower the cost of living) The efforts were crude and clumsy. He was opposed to the but-ter-fat levy, and considered the pensions generally granted by the Government were niggardly. Regarding six o’clock closing, at least 80 per cent, of the people of tho South Island were demanding it. When the country asked for conscription it was granted. Even a larger number was asking for six o'clock closing, and it should be granted. A straightout vote should be taken on the question. At 11.15 p.m. Mr J. Vigor Brown (Napier) moved the adjournment of tho debate. The House resumes at 2.30 p.m. today. ______________