FURTHER DISCUSSION IN PARLIAMENT YESTERDAY

New Zealand Times, Volume XL, Issue 9091, 9 July 1915, Page 8

FURTHER DISCUSSION IN PARLIAMENT YESTERDAY

As soon as .preliminary "business was commenced in the House of Representatives yesterday members found themselves once more plunged into the consideration of the grave aspect of affairs in connection with tho Trentham military camp. When notices of motion were called on. Dr. H. T. J. Thacker (Christchurch East) announced his intention of bringing toward a Military Camps Bill. Then Mr J. V. Brown (Napier) intimatea that ho would , ask for a return giving partioulai's aa to tho cases of measles and pneumonia that had occurred with the number ol deaths. Afterwards Mr I. A. Young (Waikato) forecast a suggestion that the Cambridge district Would be most suitable for any now .military training otump. STRANGLES AND MUD FEVER.

The leader of the Opposition (the Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward) asked if there was any truth in a report that •some horses at tho Trentham camp had strangles and mud (ever. _ Tho Minister for Defence (the Jamco Allen) said that he had' received no information to that effect. A©'far m he knew the horse* were to, excellent condition. ' _. _ ‘ The Prime Minister (Right Hon. W. F, Masaoy) remarked) that when ho visited the camp some weeks ago the horses were looking particularly fit. There was nd sign of any disease amongst them and the men in charge were very proud of the animals. Mr J. G. Coates (Kaipara) stated that tour days ago hc| wont through tho horse tines and noticed that there wm a considerable improvement on the state of things existing six weeks (previously. There was no sign of mud fever oz strangles- Of course strangles broke out very suddenly and ho was talking of tour days ago. Sir Joseph Ward explained that he had put his question to give the Minister for Defence an opportunity of , stating what the position was. - .He pad bean assured' by two men within/ the preceding half hour that strangles and (nad fever had broken out. SHOTTED THE! MEN BE REMOVED FROM TRENTHAM? While he waa on tho subject. Sir Joseph Ward continued, ho would like to ask the 'Government to Inform the House whether it was not considered'.de,draws' to have another damp tor 'the Cionthflm men to be removed so. From ottere and telegrams which he had leivod from different parts of tho htry he found that much anxiety ited on, tho part of parents and reVos of those In camp and he felt it luty to Ask the Government to give , matter immediate attention. His ion waa that the whole camp should amoved without delay. / As to the i) of the present condition of things, was a matter yet to be inquired . hut whew there were l 7000 ■ men. limed a continuance of that condi- , should toot be allowed tor a single He believed it would be better ,iyo a camp in each of the islands that the men should bo taken from itham to relieve tho feeling of nn■atoty and anxiety that ..existed. Ho ■ r 'cgrnms which he must reply to ■i no wanted to know exactly what ho> to say. ■ C. H. Poole (Auckland West)-, iey are coming from all parts of the minion." , . Sir Joseph Ward considered that in s f. of the urgent inquiries that were v g received he and other members i -ld not .remain silent. It seemed-to •im that the only way to allay anxiety as to have tho men removed from iientham altogether. , "THE CAMP IS PERFECTLY HEALTHY." Mr Allen, said he was aware of the untiety that prevailed) both in the House and in the country, It was impossible tor anybody in the House, without an opportunity of fully investigating matters, to say whether Trentham w%s a healthy camp or not. The advice given to him by the Public Health Department was that the camp was perfectly healthy, and that the < trouble as bo sickness hod originated . from outside and boon brought into the camp. Dr. ValinDr. Ftrengley. and the City Engineer (Mr Morton) were meeting that afternoon In the camp to thoroughly go into matters, although he had all-, beady received the advice (hat the camp was perfectly sound. If they were to jhift the camp, where would they go to? Dr. Thacker: "Timam" <- — ■ (Also vries of ‘‘Marlborough” , and "Camridge.") Mr Allen: Every member wanted it ■ bis own locality: How were they goag to make provision in ally new place Jor drainage! sanitation, reading, lighting, and water supply at a moment's notice P. Dr Thacker: "Timaru has cot them all” Mr Allan wanted to relieve anxiety t the earliest moment, but he would < i->t out that tho influenza epidemic : common to the conntry. As far as > knew everything was being done to ml with the epidemic. As soon as he und out that the medical staff was not ,rge enough and insufficiently organised had it reorganised. He hoped now ao staff was sufficient to cope with any morgenoy. There waa ample 'provision. Deluding nurses, 1 to deal with all the ises that' were likely to arise. Ho diced in the "Dominion” an article Ich was very disturbing to the public 'id. and he was sorry, the writer did -go to the Defence Department before faring it. ,n hon. member: "There are similar tides in the Auckland papers, too.” DRAUGHTY HUTS. ' Mr Allen; This article pointed out lat the tents had not been' removed- ' some cases they had not, but in other .sos they had, but the fact whs that v tents were being replaced by huts. 'jo article card the huts were nob healthy. He would like to know what would be considered healthy. Would anything ho healthy? These huts were built after consideration by a board specially set up, consisting of tho Government architect, the city engineer, and pr Frengley, of tho Public Health Department. When the Commission sat abundant evidence would be given to show that great care and forethought were exercised by him (Mr Allen) and everyone in the Department Everything was decided in the interests of health. Ona hut was put up as ft sample, and' certain weaknesses were found alterations were made. Ib woe found there was too much ventilation coming up from below, and it wa© stopped by_ a. plate. When this' was found to bo inefficacious the holes left by the corni-, gated iron wore filled up with cenient. Dr Thacker: “None of the huts are lined. They ought to be.” Mi- Allen: "I don’t believe it.” Dr Thacker: “You are not an authority.” , . . Mr Allen: "But the .Government architot, the city engineer, and Dr Frengley

•0."" ■ ■ ' ‘ ■?r Thacker: “They are not military

Mr Allen: "Major Morton is a military officer.” Tho drainage was specially designed by tho same board. Major Morton had devoted a great .deal of time to the subject, and tho drainage, as far as he knew, was thoroughly efficacious. The surface drainage, as he had formerly explained, had. been planned by the county engineer of; Palmerston, Mr JickeU. It was true that some of tho tents of tho 7th reinforcements were not yet floored, but the difficulty was to get enough-dry timber. Mr R. W. Smith (Waimarino): I will undertake to supply any amount of suitable timber." ■ " Mr Allen: However, without tent floors it was possible for a man to make himself perfectly comfortable if he knew how. He ventured to say that it would ha found later on that the provision made- at Trentham was all that was wanted for a healthy men. and he hoped that what he had said would for the time being remove any ; anxiety. When he got the report of the gentlemen who wore out at the camp that afternoon it would go still further to relieve anxiety. He was quite well aware that some of the men had suffered discomfort owing to the want of a second pair of boots. , , „ ~ „ T , Mr C. H. Poole (Auckland^West): Let them wear their own boots.” Mr Allen: ."They can.” Several members: "They have been stopped," Mr Allen: "They are not suitable. As fast as possible the men were being supplied with a second pair of regulation boots. There were 500 or 600 men without them, but the department was hoping that, these would' be supplied by the following day or the ,end of the weekTHE CAMP HOSPITAL.

Sir Joseph Ward asked why something had not been done in the way of providing the stationary hospital, for which. he and many others bad given subscriptions. If the camp were an ordinary township it would not he, allowed to exist without a hospital. / Mr Allen explained that' a contract had been let for the camp hospital, and it ought to have been completed by June 27tb. : The buildings in course of erection Could b© seen, and the ; contractor 'was being daily fined for being behind time. He had communicated with the commandant asking; whether it was possible to take the work out of the hands of the contractor and have it completedi by the Department, ? and he had not yet received a reply, THE COMMISSION OF INQUIRY.

Mr Massey desired to supplement what had been said l by the Minister for Defence. Unfortunately the'Government had the best reasons for knowing there was a great deal of anxiety in different parts of tho country, with regard to what was taking place at Trentham. Tfie cause of the anxiety was undoubtedly the outbreak of disease—measles and influenza. Thor© was no doubt thewet month of June ;had contributed greatly to the spread ;of -those complaints. When the leader of the Opposition talked about shifting the camp it ought to he recognised what a tremendous amount of work had been done at Trentham. ‘ .... .. Sir Joseph Ward: "I don’t think it matters a bit about the 'work done. It is a question of disease-” Mr Massey: The question had been raised as to the suitability of the Trentham site, ' Now that district had been selected and uked for camping purposes for many years past, as it was considered a particularly healthy one. Tho number of substantial buildings that (bed /been erected at the camp was surprising, end in a few days it wae expected that the dec trio light would be turned on. There were manifest advantages at) Trentham that were not likely to bo possessed by apy site to which the camp might bo transferred. With the. large number of men assembled it was impossible to avoid mud anywhere. He thought the : mud had contributed largely to the spread of disease,' but. it wag now disappearing. However, he could give the assurance, apart altogether from that point, the. first ' consideration, of the • Government . was tho comfort of-the men. (Hear, hear-V Whatever was necessary to secure 1 that would be! done. An inquiry would bs , held in a'few days, and a preliminary inquiry was being hold that, day as to whether the camp should bo transferred to some more suitable site. If the .experts reported that it was necessary it would be done at tho -earliest possible moment. . , An hen. member i ‘lrrespective .of cost?” ... , _ Mr Massey: "Irrespective of cost. We are sotting up a Royal Commission, and I hope before to-day’s sitting is over to give the persomael of the commission and perhaps also the order of reference. One of the matters which wiu be inquired into will be the best means of securing the health of the men in camp; also what has been the cause of the outbreak .of disease." Mr J. A. Hanan (Invercargill): Will it be open to the press?" . Mr Massey: "I hope so. Sir Joseph Ward urged that the vain* of the commission would be muon minimised if its proceedings were not open to tbe press. ■ ■ ■ ... ~ , Mr Massey: "I think, it is for th* commission itself to say whether fin* press will be admitted. (Opposition, dissent.) Well lam not quite euro. 1 can express my own opinion, and I say I hone the press will bo admitted ana tho fullest publicity given.; to the proceedings. I am strongly m favour or that. As for the scope of the commission ; I have discussed, that Attorney-General, and it will bo as wide as possible. If I am ■ unable to make the announcement about the commission today before it is finally fixed I am prepared to show it to the hon. gentleman and ask for suggestions.” Sir Joseph Ward; “I assume tho commission will have full access to documents and reports t° have the whole matter cleared up.” , Mr Massey: "That is always done. DR THACKER REFUSED A HEARING. Dr Thacker: "May I claim the indulgence of the House to make a statement?’’ _ Ministerial members: "No.’’ Dr Thacker: "I think that is very ungenerous." , The Speaker: "This is the time for asking questions. It is very unusual to ask tho indulgence of tho House at such a time."

Dr Thacker: "I ask permission to make a statement because 1 feel that I was the root and branch of this inquiry alto gather." (Ministerial laughter.) The Speaker: “I shall put tho question whether it is the pleasure of the Housi that tho hon. member should bo permilled to make a statement?” A chorus of "ayes.” , Mr W. Nosworthy (one of the Government whips): “No.” Tho Speaker : "On© voice being raised against permission being granted the hon. member cannot be heard."

An Opposition member: 1 "And yet there is no party, feeling in the House." THE MAHENO.

Dr Thacker (Christchurch East) asked the Minister for Defence if the hospital

ship had been bought by tho Government or merely h ired. Ho thought the Macro should have been bought, in order that the vessel might be retained as a permanent floating hospital after the close of the war. , , , , The Minister for Defence said that the Maheno had been chartered from, the Union Company on exceptionally favourable terms. DR THACKER INVESTIGATES. Mr Young (Waikato) asked if the Prime Minister had any knowledge concerning a renoxt that a member of Parliament, while visiting the hospital ship, had used a knife to cut open some of the bedding. Such conduct reflected upon every member of the House. The Prim© Minister said he had no information on tho point. Ho hoped that no member of tho House had so far forgotten himself as to damage the articles required for the patients and stall on the ship. Tho leader of the Opposition (Sir Joseph Ward) said tho member for Waikato should state the name of the member referred to and not cast a general aspersion on the House. Dr Thacker said he would like to state that he was the member referred to, and he would explain his action. Ho had been accused by the Minister for Public Health of "poking about.” The Speaker: "The honourable /member is going off the point.’’ Dr Thacker: “A matter of vital importance to the men who are going to be nursed aboard the hospital Ship is the purity -of the contents of the pillows and mattresses. I took it upon myself to open up the pillows and mattresses and take samples of the hair and feathers, which I intend to have tested to see that tho materials are not germladen like the soil at Trentham, I shall see that there are no microbes going away to infect the wounds of our boys while they are being carried from the front to tho stationary hospitals. If it is necessary X shall do the same thing again." SPREADING INFECTION.

Mr Hino (Stratford) said ho was informed that at tho sick parades certain men who wore unwell, possibly sickening for measles, were reported as fit for "light duty.” He suggested that these men should be isolated lest they should be sources of infection. The Minister for Defence said that If men were at all likely to distribute infection they should not be placed on duty. The Hon. E. H. Rhodes said that the medical officers had great difficulty in discovering the oases of sickness, _ since the men did not always report illness lest they should miss an opportunity of getting away to. the front. 1 The, men who were found to be in an infectioue condition wore removed at once from the tent's.

' THE QUESTION OF CONTROL. 'The Hon. D. Buddo (Kaiapol) asked the Defence Minister ,if the hospital’ quarters at Trentham camp were still under the control of the military medical staff. Many people, he said, had lost confidence in the staff. One parent whose boy was reported to bo seriously ill had approached Mr Buddo on the point. . The Hon. B. H. Rhodes replied that all the military hospitals were now under the control of Dr. Vallntino, In-spector-General of Public Health. The plan adopted was to send the serious cases to tho Wellington Hospital, whence they were sent, ’ in a convalescent condition, to the; home at Kaiwarra. From Kaiwarra most of them went to. their own’ homes. Some men unfortunately were taken ill suddenly at the camp an<f had to bo treated there, but separate rooms could be provided there' for serious cases and there was an adequate staff of- doctors and nurses at the camp. LETTERS PROHIBITED. Mr Poland (Ohinemuri) asked If the men who were in hospital 'had free permission to write to their parents. Tho father of one soldier) had received' a pencil note from his boy, who waa at Kaiwarra. The note had bqen, scribbled in -pencil under the bedclothes and smuggled out of the hospital in order that the man’s parents might know whore ho was. That day Mr Poland had received a telegram from’the father asking how his boy was progressing. Surely the patients in the military hospitals could be allowed ( to reminunicato with their parents* The Hon. B. H. Rhodes; "Nobody suffering from infectious'disease isallowed :to (send letters, sipce there is some fear that they may convey Infection. T have given instructions that an officer is to be set apart for the specialtHuty of communicating with parents and next-of-kin, who axe to bo Informed of the arrival of. tho men in hospital and of their progress. That arrangement is in' operation now." The Prim© Minister said he had in* spec ted tho Kaiwarra Hoepitaland had found it a very suitable building for its purpose. The men were well cared for.' No dangerous cases were at Kaiwarra and the mien were in good spirits. IN THE LOOSE BOXES. Mr Wllford (Hutt): “I want to ask the -Minister for Public Works if he ■ thinks it wise; to allow men who have a temperature and are suffering from measles to be put in the loose boxes atTrentham. Last Sunday I saw five men lying in. one horse' box.” Mr Massey: “Last Sunday?" , Mr Wllford: “Yes, when you arrived m your motor car with’ the Hon. B. H. Rhodes and iDr' Pomoire. Instead of going to the loose-boxes you,went towards the tea kiosk." Mr Wilted added that there had been five men in one box, and other boxes ' b«d. contained four men each. One man, a solicitor’s clerk from Dtmedto, had said, “Could I get something to eat?” Then a Red Cross man had come up and made tho remark, "Do you think on© Bed Cross man and one nurse are enough to aitend to seventy men?” Th© man added that he had to keep records, make lists of the patients’ kits and so on. Then another mok'soldier had said, "I would not mind l if 1 could get something to drink.” Mir Wllford went to an ambulance man, who remarked, "I don’t , think our. quarto:* should ' be so close to these measles patients, \ because we shall be in ’ trouble next." "The Minister for Public Health told m© on. the Wednesday that there were', no patients in tho loose-boxes,” concluded Mr, Wiiford. "I waa I told on Sunday that the men slept in the hopes on. Monday and Tuesday, and were moved bn Wednesday evening- They were too ill to dose the doors and keep the rain out.” The Hon, It. H. Rhodes: "I saw no men in the loose-boxes. I never denied they had been in th© boxes.” A member: “No?”

Mr Rhodes: "I demand that that man withdraw. I know th© honourable member for Invercargill made that remark.” Mr Hanan (Invercargill): “And I know what an. amiable inefficient yon are-” : , , . ■

Mr Rhodes; “I never denied the men were in loose-boxes. On a certain Sunday Dr Valintine -was at the camp and ho found a hospital marquee blown down. He then commandeered wbat accommodation there was -to be got at the racecourse, including. the trainers’ quarters and the jockeys’ quarters. There was not enough, accommodation there, and he placed some men ;|n the loose-boxes. The boxes are perfectly clean and healthy. I would sleep there any night. Since accommodation became available elsewhere the men have been moved from the boxes.’’ Mr Wilford: "Are there no men there now?” .* Mr Rhodes: "Last time I was there I looked through the loose-boxes and there were no men there. 'What the member for Hutt saw on Sunday I don’t know. The men may have gone there on their own acooant.” Mr Wilford:,-.‘‘l saw a -man brought there on a stretcher,’!

Mr Rhodes: "It is quite possible a man was placed there until the doctors could examine him. The boxe s are a good, deal larger than the tents. If the hon. member says that sick men were put there to sleep I shall be very much surprised.” ■ Mr Wilford : "I did not say they were put there, to sleep, X asked you if they ''Mr' Rhodes: “To the best of my knowledge the men were removed from the boxes as soon as possiMe-’’ Mr Wilford: “They were all ®n bods on Sunday.” THE SOLDIERS’ LETTERS.

Sir Joseph Ward said that bo would like to refer again to the surprising statement that, the men in hospital were not allowed to write letters to the Ilalonte or relative*. Could not the letters be sterilised? Parents could not be expected to be satisfied with official telegrams reporting upon tbe condition of their sous. "When X had measles in a verv severe form seven or eight years ago/’ said Sir Joseph, "I was in my room for a fortnight, but after the first day I was dealing with official papers constantly and sending letters to people all over the country.” , A member; "Who was Minister, for Public Health?" . 1 Sir Joseph Ward: "I think I was. (Laughter.) My medical adviser raised no objection.” Sir Joseph Ward added that ho was firmly of opinion that there was no good purpose to be served by suppressing information, about the war or anything else. The-Hon- E. H. Rhodes promised to look into the matter. It was more difficult to disinfect letters than clothes. Perhaps tho difficulty could bo got over by accepting an offer be bad received from tbe New Zealand Natives Association to supply visitors, who oonld write letters or render other service to tbe men. RETURN WANTED. Mt T. A. H. Field (Nelson) gave notice that ho would move for a return showing the number of men who had been discharged from Trentham as medically unfit each day since March 31st. H© said that he bad been informed that twentyfive men were discharged on one day. "MADE IN GERMANY." Mr R. Fletcher (Wellington Central) asked the Minister for Defence whether he waa aware that the bedding, etc., on the hospital ship was made in Germany. He had been given a tag of one of the blankets which wa§ a German tag, but, with, German subtlety it bore the words, “Made abroad.” Did the Minister think it right that when the jbip had been provided by th© subscriptions of tbe people it should be f urnished with German articles P Mr Allen said that he suspected someone bad been playing a trick on the hon- member. (Laughter.) So far, as he knew practically absolutely everything in tho ship had been made in the Dominion, and if there was anything which was made in Gonbany he would have It taken out. (Hear, hear.) As a matter of fact the tag produced Ly the non. gentleman came off a quilt, and me quilts were; made in England. Mr. Fletcher: “It was off a blanket. Mr Allen: "A coloured blanket- - Mr G. Witty (Ricoarton) : "Well, ttoy can be made in New’Zealand. MISSING TELEGRAMS.

Mr J. Vigor Brown (Napier) said that tho Minister for Public Health had made a statement which did not tally with something b© bad heard from a young man in one of the military hospitals. This lad had told him that he wrote three ' telegrams to his people, none _or which was dispatched. Letters arriving at tho hospital for the patients had not been distributed. , , , Mr Rhodes said that % man had been told off and instructed to send telegrams for the men. MEMBERS EXCLUDED.

Messrs J. V. Brown (Napier) and G. Witty (Ricoarton) Asked tho Minister for Defence why some members /were excluded from the hospital area at Trentham on Sunday, whilst others had been admitted« ' Mr Allen said that the sentry had been ordered to admit no one. Ho, himself, and also the Minister for Public Health, had been stopped, and had to explain who they wore. . ' ■ Mr Brown: Then how did Mr Wilford get in? 1 An hon. member: Probably over the fence. (Laughter.) TETANUS GERMS, i Dr Thacker asked the Minister for • Defence whether he was aware that' the men who had been, allowed to lie in th© horse-boxes were in the greatest danger, being extremely liable to contract the serious complaint 1 known es tetanus, commonly called lockjaw. The men at tbe Berbampor© hospital were also running the greatest risk of infection. Mr Allen said he did not know whether the-men in the noxse-boses were in sucb danger, but be did know that none of them bad contracted tetanus. Dr Thacker: It wouldn’t show itself until months after tho inoculation. Ho went on to say that the disease wag contracted through a- break in the skin, and on measles patients there were hundreds of euoh points of infection. THE PRICE OP BEDS. Mr Witty askd why it was that soldiers had to pay 2s each for their' beds. Surely when a man was offering to fight for us the least, we could do would be to give him a free bed- Anyway they were only made of canvas, and could not cost iffie Department 25.« He wished to know whether the Department would grant a refund to those men who had paid, for their beds. , Mr Allen said that palliasses had been provided free for men in the huts. He did not know exactly whether men in the tents, who did not need them, had been charged for: them. , ... ■ i , NURSES’ CLOTHING.

Mr J, Payne (Grey Lynn) asked the Minister whether he considered an allowance of :<£B sufficient (for nurses when their kit cost anything from *Bl3 to <£ls? Mr Allen said that he was surprised that anyone should have prompted such a question. The nurses from the. Dominion were being treated more liberally than those in' any other part of the world. He had not heard a single'word of complaint. Mr Payno road a long list of articles of clothing, which the nurses ore required to have, and asked whether /these could be procured for *CS. Mr Allen said that all tho requirements could be covered, by the £B. Hon. members did not expect that th© Government should provide tho nurses with underclothing. Mr J. V. Brown; “But they are told they are to bring it?” (Laughter.) ■ Mr Allen: The allowance-was made on tho recommendation of the Department, and there has not been a single complaint. . . Mr C. J. Talbot (Tomuka) asked why men in tbe mounted forces should have to buy their own spurs- He had. also heard a complaint that ■ the allowance of .£2O given to officers was insufficient to equip them properly. For one thing they could not afford to buy field glasses, which were essential to the safety of themselves and their men; Mr Allen said that at first tho men had been provided with spurs by local patriotic committees, but these organisations seemed to be getting tired of supplying them, and as usual tbe burden fell on the Government. However, the Government was willing to bear'the burden, and tenders had been called for the supply of a large number of spurs. THE HORSE BOXES AGAIN.

At this stage the Hon. E. H. Ehodes made a statement to the effect that he had jnst seen Dr Valintine, who was in charge of the hospital arrangements, and. he had learnt that the men .whom the member for Hutt had seen in the horse-boxes had simply, been placed

there temporarily for shelter, and had not remained' more than two hours. Mr Wilford said that throe men whose names he could give had slept in the horse-boxes on Monday night and Tuesday uight. and had been removed on Wednesday. Mr Rhodes: "What Monday?" Mr Wilford: "The Monday before I first mentioned this matter in tho House/’

Mr Rhodes: ‘‘That is a Very different thing. I said that no men were sleeping In horse-boxes until the marquee was blown down. There were no men sleeping there when the hon. gentleman spoke ini the House-"

Mr Wilford; "They had been for the two previous nights." Mr Rhodes: “They were not/’ Mr' Massey said that on Sunday last he had made a very close examination of the hospitals, and he was sure that if there had been any sick men in the horse-boxes they would have been shown to him. The men had been placed there only temporarily, and he thought the hon. member should have said so when ho made his statement to the House. Ho had mad© a very serious statement. It did not matter so far as members of the House were concerned, as they knew the member for Hutt, and know what value to place on his statements, but people outside did hot know him or understand him.

Mr Wilford: "I can discuss a matter like this without losing my temper. I should like to say to the right bon. gentleman that if ho wero to moderate his language The Speaker ruled the member for Hutt to be out of order.

Mr Wilford said that he was prepared to bring evidence to prove that on Sunday afternoon there were five men in one horse-box and four in others.

Mr Rhodes: "But you said in the House that they were sleeping there.” Mr, Wilford: "You are misrepresenting me." Mr Rhodes: "I never denied that men had been put there." Mr Massey expressed the opinion that Mr Wilford knew that the men had been put there temporarily, and was aware of the fact when he made his statement to the House- - Mr Wilford demanded that this statement should be withdrawn. There was not a word of truth in the Prime Minister’s statement. •

Mr Speaker called the attention of members that the debate had got beyond all limits. In his experience of twenty years; he had never known the House to devote so much time to question* without notice. The hon. member was not entitled to characterise another member's words as untrue.

Mr Wilford: "I ■ ask that th© Prime Minister's words be withdrawn." Mr Massey steadfastly, refused to with* draw the words unless directed to do so by the Speaker- He said he would not be/bullied by Mr Wilford or any other member. The whole lot of them together couldn’t do it. (Laughter and disturbance.) He wa© willing to repeat his statement. What bo bad said was that 1 the men had been placed in tbe horse-boxes temporarily, and he believed Mr Wilford; knew, it. Mr Wilford: "You said-more than that." ' . 1 / . Mr Speaker said that the discussion on both sides had been- rather Seated, and ho bad failed to catch everything that had been said. , However, if the words were a©: Mr Massey had repeated them, they were quite in order. (Government applause.) , / The House then proceeded with other business. /'