PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume LVII, Issue 2546, 26 June 1895, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, JUNE 25. Tho Speaker took tho chair at 2.30. NEW BILLS. The Colonial Secretary gave notice to introduce on tho next day the following Bills: —Tho Animals Protection Bill, Sale of Poods Bill and the Judicial Protection Bill. Tho Hon W. C. Walker gave notice to introduce the Now Zealand Institute of Surveyors Bill. ADDRESS-IN-REDLY. The Council adjourned whilst tho Ad-diess-in-Eeply was presented to tho Governor. SESSIONAL COMMITTEES. A number of Sessional Committees were appointed. FIRST READINGS. The Poisons Importation and Carriage Bill and tho Printers and Newspapers Kegistration Act Amendment Bill (tho Colonial Secretary) were read a first time. The Council adjourned till next day. HOUSE OP EEPEESENTATIVES. Tuesday, June 25. Mr Guinness took the chair at 2.30. FIRST READINGS. The following Bills wero rend a first time; —Mr Collins, Divorce Act Amendment ; Mr Lang, Puniu Eesorvos Sale; Mr Pinkerton, Dunedin Drainage and Sewerage ; Mr G. J. Smith, Property Law Consolidation Act 1883 Amendment; Mr Pinkerton (for Mr W. Hutchison), Franchise at Municipal Elections in Boroughs, and Literary Copyright in Now Zealand ; Mr Joyce, Unclaimed Moneys. THE ADDRESB-IN-RBI’LT DEBATE. At twenty minutes to 4 o’clock the Addresa-in-Eeply debate was resumed. Sir Egbert Stout thought it was to be exceedingly regretted that on an important occasion like the present no members on the side of tho Government had anything to say. He congratulated tho mover and seconder of tho Address upon the tone of independence running through their speeches. Anyone watching the Premier and tho Minister of Labour while their followers were speaking would have soon tho one taking voluminous notes which ho never intended to use, while tho other became so restless that he could hardly keep his seat. There was nothing notable in tho Governor’s Speech, or perhaps he should say there was rcally.nothing remarkable in it. There was something notable—it was notable for its omissions and its admissions. There was not a single branch of policy upon which tho Government declared itself last session but what they had had to admit had proved a ghastly failure. Take for instance tho New Zealand Consols Bill. Had these consols been taken up as it was claimed that they would be f And what about tho -£150,000 to be spent in public works ? He supposed that that, instead of being utilised as tho Government said it would be, had been sent to London to follow tho unpledged securities of tho Colony which wore lying there in millions. (Opposition laughter.) What about tho advances to settlers proposals ? Had not they practically been admitted a ghastly failure, and also the laud purchase scheme. Ho was sorry for tho latter. Had his suggestion been followed, he thought it would have been a success. He did not think there was a single estate purchased by the Government that had not turned out ft financial failure. Nothing was mentioned of these in tho Governor’s Speech—this was one of tho omissions. Then in their Native land proposals. Ho believed in tho Government having solo right to purchase Nativo lands, but the Government had gone about obtaining this end in tho wrong way, Tho unemployed question was another matter in which the Government had failed. At this stage last session they had spoken of tho improved state of things, and had then stated that they were getting bettor. Could they say that this year? (The Premier: Yes.) Last year the Labour Department were to cope with the unemployed difficulty, but it had had to be relegated to the Charitable Aid Boards. He regretted very much that the co - operative works system had broken down. Every effort made by tho Government to cope with the unemployed difficulty had proved a failure and the unemployed question in New Zealand was at tho present time as had as over it was. Tho Government, instead of showing tho way in tills matter as they claimed they were doing, had been forced to send a Minister to the other

co’onies to see what was being done there. Turning to tho work going on in tho Uriwoni country, Sir Robert Stout said that this work was waste of money. Tho hind consisted of steep precipitous hills quito unfitted for settlement, and unless it was to find work for co-operative workmen and to find warrant for tho Premier's visit to that part of tho country ho (the speaker) could see no tenson for it. ife regretted very much that niontioli should havo been made in the Speech to the Midland Rails way Company and the cyanide patent cast. They wete matters suh ju'dice and it was very unwise and unfair to m'w discuss th 6 matter, ife contended that it was iiiinecessary to increase tho number of Ministers, if Ministers had to spend extra time at their offices at session time it was on account of the time limy spent travelling about the Colony. tin quite recognised that Ministers should travel, hut they were too long absent from Wellington. It was utterly wrong to increase the number of Ministers without increasing tho number of mchibers. Tho Government wore going in for “ jerrymandering;" The Fait* Rent Bill could not stand alone. A Fair Interests Bill would have to bo introduced to be consistent. He now came to some of tho administrative acts of the Government during tho recess. One of these was contained in tho report that tho Colonial Treasurer had agreed to arbitrate concerning tho New Plymouth bondholders. This was a hlpristrohs thing. The bond!.elders that Government ’Vote ih no way responsiblo, and tho action of tho Government was therefore quite unwarranted. Another

matter was the 5 per cent. loan. Taking comparisons with the other colonies, there was the small colony of Western Australia; the price and condition under which .£750,000 was obtained by this colony was much bettor than tho New Zealand loan. They floated their loan at 5* for <£lo3 Is 4d, whereas Now Zealand floated theirs at 3 per cent, for £O4 Ks 9d, which was reduced by inter rst concessions to £ ( d 3 13s 3d. Our interest waS therefore about 3,| per cent., and theirs <£3 7s (Id, but they had tho enormous advantage of having a short term loan. Interest was falling all over tho world. We had taken our loan for 50 years, and could not pay off or change the rate of interest , Until then, while they had taken theirs for a period of 40 years; with tho right to pay It off at the crld of 20: It' wa3 said that New Zealand’s was the first 3 per cent, loan, whereas Canada's 3 per cent. loan was fetching 1001, and those of both Ceylon and Mauritius wore fetching better prices than our loan. Seeing these things, he could not see whore the bright spots in tho loan came in. Concerning the explanatory circular of tho Agent-General, he was sorry for tho honour of tho Colony that this should havo been circulated, as it contained statements quito untrue and misleading. Firstly, it would load investors to believe that the borrowed money was only to bo advanced on freehold land;

then there was the misleading explanation of tho “ gross surplus,” which would lead to the belief that this surplus existed after thb public -storks expenditure. It was misleading to state that no lodris for the purposes of conversions had taken place since 1888. Again, it was stated that tho earnings of tho railways were over 3 per cent. This was untrue. They were under 3 per cent. It was a shame, a disgrace to the Colony that when it goes into tho market it should put forward this misleading circular, like some bogus company. Then in his speech before tho English Chamber of Commerce tho Colonial Treasurer had stated that the early collection of the land tax was not due to the Government being short of money, because at that time they had in England three millions’worth of unpledged securities. Why, at that timo tho whole amount pledged and unpledged was

only £2,108,000. Tho total unpledged securities was £470,000. There were other things in tho Speech ho hoped tho Premier or some other mombor of tho Ministry would bo nblo to explain. It was exceedingly unfortunate that when they went to tho London market they could not speak tho truth. Ho believed that the credit of the Colony was such that they could afford to speak the truth. Much had been mado in tho newspapers of this three millions' worth of unpledged securities—securities which did not exist. Tho English moneylender was told that Wo had a surplus of £400,000. We had a surplus of £IBO,OOO. In making those misleading statements, a slur was being cast upon tho Liberal X s arty. No party ever succeeded which had not a high ideal and a high moral standard. Ho believed in speaking tho truth whatever happened. Better to keep our character clear than to havo all tho millions of Lon-

don obtained by means of such a circular and such a speech. Ho could not do better than to close his speech with an extract from tho pen of a modern poet t Tho ever-lnstrons name of patriot To no man bo denied because ho saw Whore in his country’s wholeness lay the flaw, Where in her whiteness the unseemly blot. Bo this tho measure of our loyalty To feel thee noble and weep thy lapse the more, This truth by thy true servants is confessed Thy sins, who love thee moat, do moat deplore } f Know those thy faithful 1 Beat they honour thee Who honour in thee only what is best. In dealing with this question ho hoped the Colony, whatever their opinion, would repudiate tho tactics employed in misleading the London money-lender. (Applause.) Tho House adjourned at 5.25 p.m., and resumed at 7.30 p.m. The Premier, who was received with applause, complimented the seconder of the Address, stating that the Government were very pleased to hear the criticism of that gentleman. It did him credit, and he (Mr Seddon) was sure that all members of the House were pleased to hear such criticism. For himself ho had never listened with more pleasure to a speech than to that manly, free and outspoken address. Mr Maslin had criticised tho details of tho Advances to Settlers Act, but in so doing ho had only condemned those who had done their best to make it unworkable, not the Government. Ho had listened with very great pleasure to tho utterances of tho senior member for Wellington—they had had the comedy and tho tragedy and tho comedy again. Ho was pleased to notice that that gentleman’s speech was free from that animus which sometimes characterised him. He, however, regretted very much tho unpatriotic remarks made by Sir Robert Stout. The charges made by that gentleman against the Colonial Treasurer and Agent-General would havo came in better taste and been more appreciated had they been made in the presence of the Colonial Treasurer. Mr Ward would bo able to refute all these statements. It was a monstrous thing that such an attack, such charges should be made, based only on newspaper reports. (Sir K. Stout: Sent out by the Agent-General.) Tho newspaper reports were contradictory. The comparisons made as to tho loan were also grossly unfair. Taking for instance the comparison with Canada, here were wo with a population of 700,000, while Canada had a population of 5,500,000. Further than this, tho loans of Canada were also guaranteed by the Imperial authorities. Sir Robert Stout had kept that back. (Sir Robert Stout: What loan?) Taking the average of tho four 3 per cent, loans raised by Canada, that average was ■£9-4 9s as against Now Zealand’s £94 8s 9d. (Applause.) This, taking into consideration tho difference in tho two countries, redounded to tho credit of this Colony. Then as to tho Western Australian loan. As compared with Now Zealand, ho claimed that at tho prices at which theso respective loans were floated Now Zealand saved .£3900 per annum more than Western Australia or £200,000 during the term of tho loan. Tho Ceylon loan quoted by Sir Robert Stout only brought a little over ,£93, and only £7CJ,OOO odd was subscribed against New Zealand’s millions. Sir Robert Stout here rose to explain that ho only quoted tho loans put on tho market about tho same timo as tho New Zealand loan.

The Premier, continuing, said the credit of the Colony had during the term of office of the Liberal Government advanced by leaps and bounds. (Applause.) On comparison with tho other colonies it would be seen that New Zealand securities had advanced and passed in value the securities of tho other colonies. No member should congratulate the Colony more on his predictions having been falsified than Sir Eobert Stout. Ho had predicted that the Colony would not bo able to get the money at 4 per cent, and was it not, therefore, a matter for congratulation for every member of tho House and every soul in New Zealand that through tho Colonial Treasurer and tho • Agent-General they had been able to get it at 3 per cent? About tho three millions of securities, Sir Eobert Stout was again in error. At the time tho Colonial Treasurer made his remarks there were in London £2,970,000 worth of securities, and drafts to tho amountof £105,000. This plainly proved the statement that there wore over three millions’ worth of securities. (Sir Eobert Stout: Wero they unpledged?) There was free £1,288,000, and the land tax amounted- to only £277,000. If tho tax had not been collected at the time it was it would have meant a heavy additional burden on tho taxpayers of £II,OOO. It was no new thing, and tho whole of tho amount, excepting some £14,000, was cheerfully paid. Ho felt certain that tho ratepayers would gladly pay the money a little early to save the extra amount. There was no necessity whatever for tho Colonial Treasurer to exaggerate, and when that gentleman arrived here ho would, no doubt, show tho House that ho had put the matter before the financial men of England in his usual plain and understandable manner. He ventured to say that Mr Ward would he able to substantiate all ho had stated before the English Chamber of Commerce. (Applause.) It had been stated that the gross surplus was a myth. Was it tho first time that “gross surplus” appeared

in a Financial Statement ? (Sit Buchanan ; Yes.) Why, it was a matter of history, (flir R. Stout: Where ?) His hon friend never had it in his Financial Statements, because it Wa3 only on one occasion that he had a small surplus. (Laughter.) How glad were the Opposition in the past to hear those charmed words “a VVhat would tho Leader of the Opposition cay now ? (Captain Russell; “It is a mistake/'and laughter,) He did not care how they worked the figures, they could not den}' the fact that there wart a surplus. (Applause.) A good deal had been made out pf the £11 7,000 worth of sinking fund debentures ftsed to make up tho surplus. It was claimed that this rhould not count in

the surplus. If this was so, what about the Atkinson Government’s surplus in 1889 of •£77,000? In that year .£203,000 of sinking fun debentures wore released and went towards the surplus. Where would the surplus have been without this? He hoped the country would give the Government credit for their surplus, and in considering it recognise that it was gained during a time of depression. With tho aafttgimtds of an audit lie urged that members should be more Careful in their utterances against the Government. He was not at all alarmed as to the outlook of tho public works for tho coming year. Within reasonable limits tho Government were quite prepared to carry on with tho funds available. He hoped these utterances of his would do away with tho assertions that tho surplus was only a myth. Ho contended that it war, only a fair thin* to reckon the railways' earnings at 3 per cc 'tiLj because it had to’ bo taken into consideration that tho Railway Department performed services to the Colony outside tho actual railways work which should be added to tho earnings of the railways. (Hear, hear.) Sir Robert Stout had claimed that tho Colonial Treasurer had misled English financiers regarding tho advances to settlers. Ho (tho Premier) contended that the remarks of Mr Ward were plain enough and not at all likely to mislead. Regarding borrowing also Mr

Ward had not stated other than the truth when ho sail that there had not been any borrowing “in this country,” meaning England, since tho year 1888. As to tho indebtedness of tho Colony, why, the sale of its railways, its postal and telegraph conveniences alone would rid tho Colony of ita debt to-morrow. There was nothing misleading in. either tho circular or Mr Ward's utterances, and tho hofioftr of New Zealand was not tarnished. They all knew that tho Colonial Treasurer was a most careful h'mh, and it was to be regretted that Sir Robert Stoitt had not waited until Mr Ward returned before speaking as ho did. He (Sir Robert Stout) must have known that there were people only too ready to take advantage of such utterances as his, and what would ho say when they were refuted? Regarding tho New Plymouth bondholders, no one was more surprised than he on seeing tho paragraph stating that the matter waa to bo referred to arbitration, and ho knew nothing of it. (Hear, hear.) Tho statement that tho co-operative works had broken

down was utterly wrong. Tho Government were labouring under difficulties# but the works had hot proved a failure. Capital had been inside of the fact that local authorities had assisted the Unemployed with relief works; but was it hot only right that tho local bodies as well as the Government should assist as far as possible. (Hear, hear.) In 1860, when there was an expenditure of over a million per annum more than now, there were men engaged on relief works at half-a-crown a day. Sir Robert Stout should remember that the Government could not do more than their means allowed) bub with the amount at their disposal they did as- much as possible. As to going outside the Colony for advice as to coping with tho unemployed difficulty, that was not tho case. As far back as 10 years ago ho himself had recommended the alternate system now Working so successfully. Mr Seddon referred briefly to the success of tho Government land settlement policy, and contradicted the assertion that tho land purchase scheme had

proved a failure. As to the assertion that tho Liberal Party had anything to be ashamed of on account of the actions of tho Colonial Treasurer and tho Agent-General, ho scouted this, stating that every member of the party might sleep soundly so far as that was concerned, lie had ho doubt bht that Mr Ward when ho returned would remove all doubts cast upon his actions. When the members of the party came to consider their position as compared with it a few years ago they might well fool proud of it. Members should bo careful in what they said not to injure the fair fame of tho country, for by placing it in this false position they did injury to every man, woman and child in the Colony. (Loud applause.) Mr G. Hutchison having congratulated the Premier upon his having recently attained his fiftieth year, went on to say that it would perhaps have been better not to havo said anything about tho Colonial Treasurer’s actions in London until that gentleman had returnodi The Government, however, were tho first to offend in the matter in the Governor’s Speech. Regarding tho utterances of tho AgentGeneral, however, they could not be expected to await his return. He hoped when tho Colonial Treasurer iCtUrned that that gentleman would bo able to give a more satisfactory reply than his chief, whoso explanations could not havo given satisfaction to anyone. It was a matter for congratulation to all that the loan was floated as successfully as it appeared to have been, and he hoped that future details would show that there was nothing to detract from this cause for congratulation. ContinuingMr Hutchison went ontocriticiso the surplus, which ho endeavoured to show was considerably less than claimed by the Government, and then twitted the Premier on his visit to Parihaka. Turning to the Minister of Labour, Mr Hutchison referred to the labour measures of the Government, and urged that instead of being guided by small coteries in the different centres, the Minister should take the House into his confidence in framing such legislation. The Government, he said, had ministered to fads and mistaken ideals, and now the country was sunk in depression.

Mr G. W. Bussell congratulated the previous speaker on his new role as jester to the Opposition, and replied to his criticisms of the surplus. He congratulated the Government on having placed the taxation on those most able to bear it, and spoke of tho Colonial Treasurer’s visit to England as a brilliant success. Quoting from the London Times ho showed that the financial credit of tho Colony had gone up with a jump after the successful floating of the loan, and that it marked an era not only in this but in all tho colonies. It was a matter for congratulation that this success was achieved for tho people by a people’s Government. The Governor’s Speech was in his opinion one that breathed hope and confidence, and before long ho hoped to see an era of prosperity throughout tho Colony. Mr Bussell, in concluding, expressed general approval of the Government’s proposals, as being those of a Government which was at the present time stronger than over it was, and ono which hold tho confidence of tho people Of tho Colony from one end to the other. He eulogised especially Mr Seddou’s firmness under trying circumstances. Mr J. Dutjiie, speaking in reference to the loan, heartily endorsed tho remarks of Sir Kobert Stout. There could be no comparison at tho present time with loans of three and four years ago. While highly gratifying and satisfactory that wo had floated a 3 per cent, loan, it was nothing unusual. Other colonies, notably Canada, had floated similar loans, and New Zealand had the advantage of the Queensland and West Australian loans in making a market for it. Our loan was costing .£3 5s por cent., as against £3 6s 8d for the West Australian and £3 10s for the Queensland. Tho fact that West Australia could pay off her loan at tho end of 20 years ought not to bo overlooked, as money had a downward tendency, and might bo much cheaper shortly. Ho would not comment on tho Colonial Treasurer’s speech, but the f circular with its misleading statements greatly involved tho honour of the Colony. Continuing, Mr Duthie referred in detail to several of tho matters mentioned in the circular. When in England two days after tho floating of the loan, three bank directors had complained to him of the misuse to which tho circular had been put. Mr Duthie went on to advocate the cause of the San Fancisco mail service, and then expressed his gratification at the reply of the Premier regarding the New Plymouth bonds. He thought it unfair to say that country squatters were turning men off work to discommode the Government. Tho reason for the glut of unemployed in tho towns was that there was no enterprise in tho country ; no one dared to investmoneyundorthopresent Government. He condemned the Masters and Apprentices Act as being unnecessary, and thought it about time tho Government considered whether they had not gone far enough with this class of legislation. Tho increase in tho number of Ministers was simply adding to tho burdens of tho people and giving the Government an undue advantage in the House. Mr E. M. Smith expressed strong approval of tho conduct of the Government during the recess, and supported their proposals. It was all very well, he said, for the Opposition to condemn, but they never suggested any remedies.

Mr Chowtukr said it was impossible to speak on the Address-in-Keply without reiteration, and he would therefore limit himself to five minutes. He had a few good words to say for the Advances to Settlors Hoard. The House ought to bo very thankful to the Board, he thought, for the extraordinary caution they had shown. Tho Hon Major Stewaed hoped that tho depression was passing away, as stated in the Speech, but ho wished to impress upon the G ovemment that the depression still existed to an extent that rendered it necessary for them to continue their assistance

to the unemployed. lie admitted that tbo •Government had done what they thought beat, but contended that much more good would bo done, if, instead of having little works all over the Colony, they should bring down a vote of .£20,000 or £ 30,000 for carrying on one or more of the necessary railway works of the Colony. The alternate system he agreed with, but w r ork could not be found for all on this system. Another plan he would suggest would be to put on the unemployed to make a waterraco to a “ poor man's goldfield" in hia district. Major Steward went on to defend the Pomahaka purchase. Mr McLachlan criticised certain valuations mndo by tbo valuers under the Advances to Settlers Act. He did not think the Board was to blame. Continuing, lie eulogised the abilities of the Colonial Treasurer, and generally supported the Government proposals.

At midnight tho debate was adjourned/ on the motion of Mr Buchanan, and tho House rose.