PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume LVI, Issue 2274, 2 August 1894, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 1. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. FIRST READINGS. , The following Bills were read a first time: Shipping, Seamen, and Marine Engineers Bill, Mr Pinkerton; a Bill to alter the boundaries of the Waimca and Inangahua Counties, Mr Mills. MAIN TRUNK RAILWAY. In answer to Mr La wry. The Premier said the delay in producing the reports of the surveyors as to the most suitable route for the North Island Trunk Railway was not the fault of the Government. The reports of Messrs Holmes and Donkin were ready, but that of Mr Reynolds had not come to hand yet. Mr B. SI. Smith moved the adjournment of the House to speak regarding these works, and to protest against the withdrawal of Mr Donkin. The Premier said that a report from the Engiueer-in-Chief stated that the work Mr Donkin was doing was of no benefit. The reports would show that it was very much against the Stratford route that these new surveys had been undertaken. Had he listened to the Government officers the work would not have been entered upon. THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. When the House resumed at 7.30 pan.. The Colonial Treasurer moved that the House should go into Committee of Supply, and said that ho proposed to set precedent aside in order to refer to the manner in which the Budget had been treated by certain members of the House in interviews with press representatives since the Financial Statement was delivered. There was a wonderful similarity between the expressions of opinion which Sir Robert Stout and the Leader of the Opposition had given to these gentlemen. Sir Robert Stout in stating that .£430,000 was to bo obtained from the insurance companies by the Budget proposals, had stated what was not correct. Ho should have pointed out that there were alternative proposals, and that the companies had the power either to pledge their own securities or to invest in Government securities. Sir R. Stout had declared the Budget proposals to moan borrowing to the extent of six millions. In that, however, he had included the Bank of New Zealand guarantee, which ought not to have been included at all, because it was only a contingent liability, and the interest on that two millions was to be met by the shareholders of the Bank. As to the proposal to obtain .61,500,000 for the cheap money scheme, how could it bo contended that that could bo called borrowing? The money would be invested in real estate under proper conditions, free from political influences, and all that the Government would do was to obtain the money and see that it was properly safeguarded. It was also unjust to include in the six millions the million of consols. That million was not intended to be raised in the first twelve months. The impression had been set abroad that the Government were going to raise hundreds of thousands by the savings banks proposal. Ho ridiculed this assertion. There was nothing compulsory in it, hut it was within the knowledge of the Government that during the last twelve months some of the banks were not what they ought to bo. A stupid run on the Auckland Savings Banks had taken place, and it was known also that other private savings hanks were not strong. The whole object of those proposals was the benefit of the public themselves. If the banks did not like to come in voluntarily, the Government would not compel them to do so. If there was any item in the Budget in the nature of a borrowing proposal, it was the proposal to obtain £250,000 for opening up lands for settlement. Yet the men who held up their lands in holy horror and condemned this as a borrowing proposal had themselves when they wore in office pledged the credit of the Colony for considerably larger sums. Sir Robert Stout, when be was in office, added to the public debt to the extent of £3,321,800. Ho had one million of the 1882 loan available when he went into office, and ho left office with a largo deficit.

Sir R. Stout : There was no deficit in the Public Works fund.

Mr Wabd went on to condemn the arguments of Dr Newman concerning the Budget. He warned Mr Earushaw that in opposing the coal bonus lie was objecting to the employment of the people, and that if ho opposed the duty on fruit, ho was opposing assistance to the smaller class of settlers. Mr Ward quoted from a speech delivered in a previous session by Mr Dutliie, who in that speech expressed the opinion that money must be found from some source to give access to lands for settlement. Ho claimed Mr Duthie as a supporter of the Budget proposals, especially the cheap money scheme. The Treasurer denounced the policy of the Opposition as a policy of running-down the credit of the Colony. Ho instanced the interview between Sir John Hall and a representative of a London paper. Sir John Hall’s utterances in the course of that interview were full of despair, and probably in the same way the incorrect statements of members of the Opposition to the press regarding the Budget would bo quoted in the London papers to the damage of the credit of the Colony. Those who uttered those incorrect statements were not tho friends of the Colony. The Government believed their policy to be for tho good of tho whole Colony, and they would stand by it. Mr Mitchblbon said the Treasurer had taken a most extraordinary course in delivering tho speech he had just made.' Notwithstanding tho flapdoodle ho had uttered, he was not going to draw a red herring across tho scent or divert him from his speech. Tho Budget now under discussion was the most extraordinary ever produced. It was full of wild-cat proposals, and, would indicate that tho Government were intent upon either bubbling or bursting. They looked in vain through this Budget for the two leading planks of tho Government programme—-self-reliance and non-borrowing. Tho only pleasing feature of the Budget was that the revenue for the year was £106,000 above the Treasurer’s estimate, and that there had been a saving of £74,000 in the expenditure. He contended that tho correct surplus was £189,000, not what the Treasurer had stated. He estimated also that the amount of Treasury bills outstanding was one million pounds, or nearly so ; and if that were so, tho Colonial Treasurer’s finance, instead of being strong, was exceedingly weak. Tho total amount expended by the present Government out of the consolidated fund on public works was only 216,000, which was very little considering the professions of the Government that they were carrying on public works out of revenue. The Government had increased the net debt during their term of office by £1,500,000. Mr Mitchelsou pointed out that information given in the New Zealand Times on Tuesday showed that during tho quarter there had been a falling off in Customs to tho extent of no less a sum than £19,000. So far as he was able to forecast, tho Treasurer would have to face a deficit at tho end of the year. Mr Mitchelson compared the results of the land policy of 'the present Government with tho results of tho land policy of Sir Harry Atkinson’s Government, to show that the people placed on the land by the Atkinson Ministry numbered 579 more than those settled by the present Government, and that tho quantity of land taken up under tho Atkinson regime was also greater. Tho legislation of the present Government had caused the Bank of New Zealand trouble, inasmuch as the Assets Company wore not able to realise their large areas of land. He entirely disagreed with tho proposal in the Budget to give financial aid to settlers. The scheme had been based on tho supposition, that the money could be raised at par. ThePuEMiEB: There is no doubt about that.

Mr Mitchelson maintained that there was considerable doubt about it. Unless the money was obtained at par there would be a loss of from 1:30,000 to .£35,000 on every million they borrowed. Ho maintained it was highly dangerous to advance money on town or suburban lands at more than 50 per cent, value. The cheap money scheme would impair the confidence now felt in the Government insurance Department and Public Trust Office.

Mr Tannee said that tho speech of Mr Mitchelson was full of the saddest pessimism. The Budget proposals formed the embodiment of a bold and comprehensive policy. It was one of the most gratifying features of the public finance that the weight of debt per head upon the people of the Colony was decreasing. While ha deprecated any attempt to raise money in London for general purposes, it was impossible to shut our eyes to the state of the Colony at .the present time in the financial world. They must stimulate private enterprise, and the Colonial Treasurer’s proposals had, he asserted, been received with confidence throughout tho whole country. Tho proposal to borrow money for land settlement had been affirmed again and again. The bonuses for coal and beetroot sugar he would support, but he did not think there was any probability of those bonuses being granted. . ... Sir Eobeet Stout considered this the most peculiar financial debase he had ever heard in that House. Ho who excused himself accused himself, was an old French proverb, and they had seen tho Treasurer doing that that evening; Sir Robert Stout claimed that it was impossible to discuss a Budget of sd much importance, containing so many subjects, in the space of one hour allowed by the time limit. It was because of a want of ability" on the Government benches to discuss financial questions, and not from a want of courtesy.that no Minister had followed Mr Mitchelson, as was usual on such occasions. Sir E. Stout went on to claim that there was a total deficit of .£544,341, The surplus announced in the Financial

Statement was made'up by taking into account tlio credit of last year, a certain sum brought to the revenue under the Consolidated Stock Act, and borrowings for Cheviot and othoz* purposes, and deducting* the deficit, they got the exact amount of the surplus as stated in the Budget. It ■was absurd for them to say that they would have a surplus without borrowing. If they had done with* ut borrowing they would have concluded the war withadeficit. Sir Robert Stout maintained that the sinking fund interest had increased instead of decreased, and quoted figures to show that tlio surplus was smaller than was really claimed. He noticed that there had been a gradual increase of Treasury bills, and the best proof of the ticklish financial position of the Colony was that they had been called upon to pay the extra sum asked for under the Band Tax Act passed a few days ago. As to the policy of the Budget, on the face of it it meant nothing but borrowing. In the first placo, there was to bo annual and recurrent borrowing. The Minister of Lands was to have -£250,000 for settlement, and that loan was apparently to bo as eternal as his lease; £;2DO,000 were proposed for roads j a million and a half was to bo borrowed for giving aid to fat mors, and ho still insisted, notwithstanding tlio denial of the Treasurer, that that was borrowing. He believed that the total sum involved this year was at least throe millions, and that was leaving out the proposals regarding consols and insurance companies. He did not know that such a largo sum of public money was ever given before to a Ministry to be expended in one year.

The Premier: What about tho five millions in 1879 ?

Sir Bojbeat Stout said that the question of the Premier proved that he knew little of finance. That money was not to be spent in 1879, and a great deal of it went to the payment of existing liabilities. Under tho proposals of this Budget they were going to borrow year by year no less a sum than two millions and three-quarters, and there was to be no end to it. Could tho Colony stand the strain? Where was the boasted policy of self-reliance ? Such borrowing proposals were unknown in any country in tho world except at war time, and ho therefore declared it to be an audacious Budget. The meaning of the proposals was that they wore placing the Colony under tho heol of tho debonturolioldor in London for two and a quarter millions every year. He wanted now to say something of what was called Liberalism in that House. In no Parliament in tho world had tho Liberal members boon treated as they hnd been treated this year. They were not allowed to have souls of thoir own ; every Bill was forced down their throats at tho point of tho bayonet, and they were driven like dumb dogs into the lobby. They were afraid; they were terrorised—- (“ Nonsense " and laughter from Government supporters, and " hoar, hears " from the Opposition.) Ho need not refer to the question of Sergeant-at-Arms and other questions ; he would only say that there could be no Liberalism whore there was an autocracy. The Liberal proposal was to bo "the spoils to the victors"— that which damned any Democracy wherever it had been started. There could not be a pure administration if they were to have tho spoils to the victors. They saw what it had wrought in America, Sir 'ft. Stout quoted as an instance in this Colony tho Railway Board, He had been told on good authority, that, prior to tho last election, mootings were held between one or two Ministers of tho Crown and the Railway Union in Christchurch, and actually tho names of tho men who wore to be removed from the Railway Board were mentioned. Let the Premier deny this, or give him a committee to enable him to prove it. Sir 'R. Stout wont on to say that tho Railway Commissioners were influenced to lower the salaries of certain men at ■ the dictation of the Union in tho hope that they would resign. Ho characterised as most improper the threat uttered by the Minister of Lands that there would bo a dissolution if tho Bill were thrown out or altered. The present, ho declared, was a grave crisis in tho history of the Colony, and while ho admitted that tho Government were doing what they thought best in the interests of tho Colony, ho hoped that the House would reject the Budget proposals. If this Budget were carried out the solvency of tho New. Zealand Government Insurance Association would be threatened. Regarding tho scheme of financial aid to settlers he suggested that tho savings of the Public Trust Office, the Government Insurance Department, and tho Savings Bank should have been taken to lend to settlers, instead of the Colony going to the foreign bondholder, as was now proposed, to start a system of plunging

The Premier said ha waa labouring under considerable disadvantage in following the cold-blooded speech of the senior member for Wellington, but ho would be doing wrong if he allowed such a speech to go without reply from him. If that speech bad been made by the leader of the Opposition ho could have understood it, but ho could not understand the action of one who should be helping them to fight the battles of the people against those who, if they had the opportunity, would undo all that had been done during the last four years. Ho went on to speak of the Stout-Vogel administration and said that when that Government had failed to make provision to meet our payments in London, Sir Harry Atkinson was compelled to borrow .£700,000 from the Colonial Bank, so as to save the Colony from making default. The Budget was the continuation of the policy earned on by the present Government since 1891. It was no now thing to assist local bodies or to purchase Native lands, and if Sir Robert Stout was true to his public utterances he would support the Government in bringing back the pre-emptive right, and in upholding the Treaty of Waitangi. Regarding the scheme for aiding farmers, the Premier quoted from a speech in which Sir Robert Stout had declared that financial aid to farmers was necessary, for they' were cursed on account of their mortgages. It had been asserted that the farmers were going to bo placed under the heel of the debenture-holder in London. Ho maintained that the farmers were now under a heel, but it was that of the capitalist and land-grabber. The Government intended to remove that heel, and the people would support them in doing it. (Hear, hears from the Ministerial supporters.) It was the curse of the farmers that they were compelled to pay, some of them, as high as 10 and 12 per cent, for money. Sir R. Stout had said that the Liberal members were " dumb dogs ” in that House. In doing that he had cast a slur upon the intelligence of the country. They voted with tho Government because they wore true to their election pledges, and they ought not to have been spoken of in such terms. He warned Sir Robert Stout that if ho continued long in the path in which he was going, ho would find some of them would bark, and bite, for the people of this Colony. (Cheers and laughter.) Regarding the criticism of tho Civil Service, Sir Robert Stout had in 1884 a fair working majority, when by tho Civil Service Act all tho appointments except one or two very good ones wore given to his political opponents % but tho result was that the Liberal Party was almost annihilated and the- hon gentleman himself was amongst the slain. The country evidently did not appreciate tho hon magnanimity. Tho statement of the hon member concerning the Railway Board was entirely unwarranted. He (the Premier) had not spoken half a dozen words to Mr Eonayne before ho was appointed Commissioner ; and ho would say that ho was proud the Government had made those appointments. There was nothing whatever in them to regret. He defended tho insurance proposals, asking whether it was right that New Zealand should bo the happy hunting ground for companies who were able to send their money to America and other foreign countries, The Government did not want tho money of these companies, but they would insist that they should take up New Zealand securities. The Government had information which warranted the belief that £BOO,OOO were hidden away in safes and teapots in New Zealand, withdrawn from circulation; and tho State had come to the rescue by tho establishment of the consols scheme. It had been said that the money for farmers would not be raised at par. What was tho use of continually decrying tho credit of tho Colony in this way ? If members of tho Opposition could not secure seats on the Government benches by better means than that, it was preferable that they should retire from politics altogether. It had been asked whether the scheme would apply to ‘ Crown tenants ? His answer was that it would. The Premier concluded by declaring that the majority of members were pledged to aid farmers, and pledged to the compulsory taking of private lands and to other points in the Government policy.

After his speech, the Premier. challenged Sir E. Stent to name the Minister who allied himself with the Eailway Board concerning tho appointment of Commissioners. Sir Robert Stout understood that there were two Ministers. (Cries of " Name them.”) One ho believed was the Minister of Education. Hon Mr Beeves ; "Well, name tho other. Sir E. Stout : I believe the Premier was the other. • The Premier : I never saw them. Mr Beeves : Now, I did. (Laughter.) I saw them, but not with the Premier. Sir E. Stout : I did not say with the Premier. ‘Mr Beeves said he addressed the men, as 'he had a perfect right to address theln. 'He certainly did express his opinion that tho management should be changed. There was nothing new in that, and what he said was that the majority of tho Commissioners would be removed. Mr B. M. Smith proposed the adjournment of the debate. This was agreed to, and tho House adjournecT at 12.20 tun.