PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXVIII, Issue 6592, 3 June 1882, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, JUNE 2, ISSI. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. The Speaker read a telegram from Messrs Joubert and Twopeny inviting members of the Council to the Christchurch Exhibition. —Dr Menzies asked, If the Government would make inquiries on the subject of inventions lately described as a self-acting electric buoy and a self-acting fog-horn buoy, with a view to a practical application of either invention in this colony ’ —Ur Whitaker said no information had been received respecting a self-acting electric buoy or self-acting fog-horn buoy, but inquiries had been instituted with regard to fog signals, and correspondence on the subject had been carried on between_ the Agent-General and the Trinity House in London. Papers had just been received by the San Francisco mail, with drawings and specifications, of “first-class automatic Siren signals,” but they had not been examined, as they only reached the Marine Office that morning.—On the motion of Mr Stevens, it was ordered, “ That there be,laid upon the table a return of the number of applications made under the Adoption of Children Act, 1881, to 31st May.” Mr Stevens said that a great obstacle to the Act being availed of was that persons Wishing to adopt children from orphanages objected to pay the fees which the Act prescribed.—The Affirmations and Declarations Bill was passed through Committee without amendments, read a third time, and passed.—The Banks and Bankers Act Amendment Bill and the Vagrant Act, 1866, Amendment Bill were read a second time. Colonel BRETT said the Vagrant Bill was to impose the punishment of flogging upon persons who indecently exposed themselves, an offence so common in Christchurch that parents were actually afraid to send their children into the public squares and parks. The Council rose at 3.30. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. FRIDAY, JUNE 2, ISS2. ■ The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m,, and read the usual prayer. petitions. . , Sir George Grey presented a petition from J. Garrard, who had been a candidatei for Auckland City West, and had been arrested on a charge of personation. The petitioner said the* Magistrate had decided that there was no case whatever against him, and as he had suffered great injury he prayed that the House would grant him compensation. Other petitions were presented by Messrs Tomoana, J. Green, and Sir George Grey.

JSOXICES OF MOTIONS AND QUESTIONS, A number o£ notices of motions and questions were given. Among them were the following : Mr Fulton to ask what steps the Government intend to take'to close the cemeteries in the City of Well.ngton; Mr Weston to move, in Committee on the Licensing Act Amendment Bill, that the Bill be amended so as to provide for the nomination of Licensing Committees by the Government; Mr Sheehan to ask for leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate the education reserves in the colony, so that the same shall be available for the support and maintenance of 'national education in the colony ; Mr Sheehan to ask for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law of libel;

Mr Tole to ask leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law of libel; Mr Williams to move that it be a further instruction to the Reporting Debates Committee to consider what steps can be taken to reduce the cost of reporting for and printing “ Hansard Mr Tole to move for leave to introduce a Bill to repeal the Beer Duty Act, or to make the mode of collecting the duty less objectionable ; Mr Pulton to ask if the Government will carry out the recommendation in the report of the Public Petitions Committee upon Sirs Mansford’s petition, to the effect that persons entering the Government service under permanent engagement shall insure their lives for an amount not less than one year's salary. REPORTS. Mr Shephard laid on the table the report of the Local Bills Committee, recommanding that the Otago Harbor Board Empowering Act be proceeded with, and that the Auckland Grainmar School Bill should he amended iu certain particulars. The report was adopted. The report of the Petitions Committee, brought up by Mr Kelly, was ordered to lie on the table. PAPERS. A number of papers were laid on the table, among them being the report of the Judicature Commission, with the Bill recommended by them. questions. Mr SEDDON asked the Minister of Mines, Whether the Government, this session, intended to introduce any measure having for its object the granting of freehold, so far as the surface only is concerned, of lands on goldfields, which have been held, occupied, and registered for a period of twelve months as residence areas ? The Hon. W. ROLLESTON said he had considered the matter, but it seemed to him as long as the occupant held a miner’s right his tenure was almost as good as if he had a Crown grant, if the laud was not required for mining. He would further consider the matter. Mr POSTLETHWAITE asked the Minister of Lands, What steps were being taken to throw open for sale the pastoral lands in Canterbury, in blocks of not more than 5000 acres, nor less than 500; also, whether he could fix a definite period when such blocks would be offered for sale, in accordance with “ Crown Grants Guide,” No. 4, page 53, published ISS2?—The Hon. W. ROLLESTON said the Government had set apart some 70,000 acres for occupation on pastoral deferred payments. When roads were made the blocks would be put up, so that applicants would know that they would have means of access to the land. If the land were open now it would not fetch its real value. Mr POSTLETHWAITE asked the Minister of Lands, Whether the Government intended to place a vote on the Estimates to assist in keeping up the smaller domain grounds, as well as the four centres, which received subsidies from the Government last session?—The Hon. W. ROLLESTON answered in tho negative.

In reply to Mr Seddon, who asked whether the Government intended this session to bring in a measure for the redaction ot fees under the Land Transfer Act, the Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said the Government had no such intention, This was the first time he had heard the fees complained of, but he would inquire into the matter. in reply to Mr Steward, the Hon. W. JOHNSTON said if he found it necessary, he would order a ladies’ waiting-room to be provided at the St. Andrew’s Railway Station. At the present time ho was of opinion that tire passenger traffic to and from that station was very small. Mr STEWARD asked the Colonial Secretary, (1) Whether it was not the fact that tire Waimate County Council having in April, 1881, advised the Government of its inability to continue to maintain the County Hospital, the Colonial Secretary wrote in reply, under data 7th April of that year, suggesting that the Council should carry on the institution pending certain intended legislation in the then next approaching session, and undertaking on the part of the Government to provide the necessary funds? (2) Why, seeing that the said hospital had, in accordance with this understanding, since been carried on by the Countv Council—which had received no subsidy or aid on account thereof, the Government had hitherto failed to repay the net cost to the county, amounting, after deducting subscriptions, &c., to the sum of LlO3, or thereabouts, as shown by accounts rendered to the Government in the month ot February last ? (3) Whether the Government, having inquired into the premises, wereuowprepared to carry out the arrangement made with the county autho ities as above stated ?—The Hon. T. DICK said similar communications had been received from many other districts. It had been intended to bring in a Bill to deal with Hospital and Charituble Aid, but it was decided to grant subsidies for another year. Waimate was such a wealthy county that it had funds and did not need to tax itself. It therefore got no subsidy. The Government acknowledged the right of the County Council to Llol, and were prepared to pay that amount.—Mr STEWARD said there would be a considerable rate levied this year, so that the County could not be described as a wealthy one. In reply to Mr Steward, the Hon. W. JOHNSTON said provision would be made for the erection of yards and loading platforms for cattle and sheep at Makikiki and Waitaki North.

In reply to Mr Weston, who asked whether the Government intended to appoint a warden for the Reefton district, the Hon. T. DICK said the Government did not see its way at present to carry out the request.—ln reply to question from the same member, whether the Government would make provision in the Estimates for a Warden and Resident Magistrate’s Courthouse at_ Nelson Creek, the Hon. T. DICK said there did not appear to be much business transacted at Nelson Creek, and the Government did not think the expenditure would be judicious. Ahaura was only nine miles distant.

In reply to Mr Taiaroa, the NATIVE MINISTER stated it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to give effect to the recommendation of the Native Affairs Committee on the petition of Revvi, Kornarua, and others.

In reply to Mr Sheehan, who asked why such great delay had taken place in proceeding with the Thames-Kopua railway, the Hon. W. JOHNSTON said specifications were being prepared for the work. Sir G. GREY asked the Government, Did they intend that arrangements should be made by which the Attorney-General shall be a member of the House of Representatives ?—■ The Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said the Government did not intend to make any special arrangements. Mr J. MoKENZIE asked the Minister for Public Works, If he would cause an inquiry to be made as to the time the fireman McFee was on duty when the accident took place on the railway lino at Kartigi; and if true, as stated in the Press, that the railway employees had to work on some occasions from twenty to thirty-six hours, if he would put a stop to such practice?—The Hon. W. JOHNSTON said he had already informed the House that the man had only been on duty two hours when the accident happened. He would shortly have a return before him, and if it was found that men were asked to work an unreasonable number of hours, a stop would be put to the practice. Captain MACKENZIE asked the Minister for Public Works, If the Workmen employed upon the public works of the colony, having permanent engagement, were allowed the same number of holidays during the year as such workmen were allowed in the other Australian colonies ; and, if not, would he take steps to give them the same holidays as were allowed elsewhere’—The Hon. W. JOHNSTON promised to make inquiries into the matter. ; In reply to Mr White, the Hon. W, JOHNSTON said the work of improving the railway crossing, Colombo-road, Sydenham, would be proceeded with at once. Mr W. WHITE asked the Colonial Secretary, Whether the medical officers of the different lunatic asylums in the colony, in the event of the death of patients, made post mortem examinations in the different cases; and, if so, whether the Government would communicate with the Coroners, with a view to prevent its continuance ? The Hon, T. DICK said, so far as he could ascertain, in no case had post mortem, examinations been made without proper authority. The doctor of the asylum ought not to be the to make the examination, and he promised to make further inquiries into the matter. air HUTCHISON asked the Minister of Justice, If there was any precedent for prisoners, under committal for trial for sedition, and remaining in custody, being taken about by Magistrates and other Government officials to public shows, and in excursions by rail to various places ; and out of what fund the expenses of Te Whiti andTohu for travelling and entertainment outside the prisons were being paid ?—The Hon. T. DICK said he was not aware of any precedent in history, but they were in a new colony, and to a great extent making precedents. He had no doubt the House would pass the sum required. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Colonial Secretary, If he could inform the House as to whether the Public Health Act, 1876, Amendment Act, 1881, andjthe Order in Council of 19th December last based thereon, bearing upon the inspection of dairies and the purity of milk, had been carried out to any considerable extent throughout the colony ?—The Hon. T. DICK said an Act had been passed on the subject, but the Government did not know to what extent it had been taken advantage of, except in Christchurch and Auckland.

Captain MORRIS asked the Government, If they were taking any steps to complete the purchase of the Ohinemuri Block, in the'TJpper Thames district; and, if so, what steps !—The Hon. J. Bryce said the Government had been taking steps in the direction indicated, but the matter was a most complicated one. Sir G. GREY asked the Government, If they had received any information regarding the pulling down of telegraph poles at Ran* giora, Hokianga, in consequence of no compensation having been given for the use made of private property ; and, if so, what had been done in the matter?—The Hon. W. JOHNSTON said the opposition had been withdrawn, and the work of erecting the telegraph lines was now being proceeded with. The Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said he had looked into the matter of laying the papers connected with the trial of Hiroki before the House, as asked by the hon. member for Auckland East. There were no special features in the case, and the Government saw no reason to ask the Governor to stay the course of the law.

In reply to Mr Holmes the Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said any lion, member who wished a writ to be issued for Stanmore could move in that direction. In reply to Mr Levestam, the Hon. T. DICK said he was not satisfied, without further investigation, that there was any necessity for amending the Resident Magistrates’ Courts Act with reference to imprisonment for debt. NEW BILL. Leave was given to introduce the following Bill, which was road a first time, and ordered to be printed A Bill to amend the Native Land Court Act, 1880 (Mr McDonald). Second reading fixed for Wednesday next. THE CHRISTCHURCH EXHIBITION. In reply to Mr Steward, the Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said there was no truth m the report that the Hinemoa would leave Wellington on Friday next to convey members to the Christchurch Exhibition. wi parata’s petition. Mr MACANDREWwished to know whether he could bring foiward his motion, referring to the petition of Wi Parata, asking that Te Whiti be heard by counsel at the bar of the House, before the orders of the day.—The SPEAKER said the proper timo would be when the order of the (lay for the second reading of the West Coast Peace Preservation Bill was called on. —Mr MACANDREW said he did not want the motion regarded in the light of an amendment.—The Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said it must be regarded as an amendment. The Hon. J. BRYCE said the motion must be regarded as an amendment, as it traversed the proposal that the Bill should be read a second time. The Government would not accept any amendment whatever upon the second reading of the Bill. —Mr MACANDREW said he would alter his motion, so as to read that the petition bo read “forthwith,” instead of “ before proceeding with the second reading of the West Coast Peace Preservation Bill.” That would get over the difficulty. The Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said the Government would not accept any amendment in the Bill, nor would they have the Bill delayed for any such proposal as that of the hon. member for Port Chalmers. —Mr KELIoY questioned whether Wi Parata had a right to act for Te Whiti. —Mr J. O. BROWN supported Mr Macandrew’s proposal. The question that the motion should be taken before the orders of the day was then put and negatived, ORDERS OP THE DAT. The first order of the day was the consideration of the report of the Reporting Debates and Printing Committee, recommending that members should be supplied with twelve copies of •' Hansard,” instead of eight as at present. Mr EELDWICK moved the adoption of the report. —Mr SHRTMSKI opposed the motion.—Mr MACANDREW thought members should be supplied with extra copies at a low rate. —Mr J. 0, BROWN said the reports of debates should be circulated in a sheet form.—Mr EELDWICK said the matter was under consideration. —On a division, the motion was carried by 49 votes to 23. CORRUPT PRACTICES BILL. The Hon. H. A. ATKINSON moved the second reading of the Corrupt Practices Prevention Amendment Bill, saying that ho scarcely thought it necessary to explain its provisions to the House. —Mr TURNBULL seconded the motion, which was carried without discussion : and, on the motion of the Hon. H. A. ATKINSON, the Standing Orders were suspended to enable the House to go into Committee on the Bill. In Committee, the Bill as printed was passed,—Mr TURNBULL moved the following additional clause Whereas on the trial of an election petition regarding the election of a member for the House of Representatives for the Stanmore Electoral District, the Judges who tried the said petition found that Walter Hippolyto Pilliet had been guilty of an illegal practice, and declared the election void. And whereas such finding has been reported to the House of Representatives, and duly entered in the Journals of the House : And whereas it is desirable that it should be referred to one of the Judges who tried the petition to say whether, in his opinion, the said Walter Hippolyte Pilliet should be relieved from all or any of the penalties incurred by him through such finding of the Court. Be it therefore enacted that it shall be and is hereby referred to his Honor Mr Justice Williams, one of the Judges who tried the said petition, to certify, and he shall forthwith certify, having regard to section two of this Act, whether, in his opinion, the said Walter Hippolyte Pilliet should or should not be relieved from any or all of the penalties or disqualifications ha may have incurred by reason of anything he did in or about the Stanmore election, and such certificate shall forthwith he forwarded by the said Judge to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and if the said Judge shall certify that, in his opinion, he the said Walter Hippolyte Pilliet should bo so relieved, then, on the same being forwarded to the said Speaker, the same shall be reported to the House, and thereupon the said Walter Hippolyte Pilliet shall be freed, discharged, and indemnified from and against all penalties, forfeitures, incapacities, and disabilities, which the said Judge shall specify in the certificate so given and forwarded by him as aforesad.” Mr WESTON said nothing could be more important than the preservation of the independence of our Judges. The question was whether they had a right to ask the Judges to report on the matter now before the House. The motion before them distinctly asked the Judge to step into the political arena, and he, therefore, opposed it, though after giving the matter a great deal of thought, he had come to the conclusion that there would he no danger in relieving Mr Pilliet from all penalties and disabilities under which he laboied. It might be said that the object of the Bill was to enable Mr Pilliet to contest the Stanmore seat, but they should not consider that, as_ there were other penalties and disabilities which were far too heavy, considering the very slight fault whicli he had committed. If they were to give him relief, let them' do so, hut avoid any suspicion of political influence on the Judges. Mr WILLIAMS said he did not approve of the additional clause, for if the Act were to he altered, it should he done in plain, straight-for-ward language. Hon. members were familiar with the facts of the case. So far as the Judges under the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act were concerned, they had no’discretionary power with regard to the penalties, and he thought the House were quite justified in passing a Bill to enable the Judges to use their discretionary power. The House were asked to pass a simple common act of justice. If it were not right that relief should hu giveu, of course the House would have no hesitation in throwing out the clause it was proposed to introduce. ' He was sorry, however, if Mr Pilliet were to ho relieved that the House did not put it in plain language that.the penalties should bo remitted, and that he should be allowed to stand again. He would much prefer that the Judges should he left out, as one of them was now away, while the other would be placed in a most embarrassing position. He would be glad if the hon. member for Timaru would accept an amendment to that ef The’Hon. H. A. ATKINSON said ithadbean found inadvisable to allow Committees to deal with these matters, and they had therefore been transferred to a Court of Justice. The Judges had been given discretionary power in connection witli corrupt practices, but not in connection with illegal power. The Committee proposed to give the Judges discretionary power in the latter case, and now it was proposed to ask the Judge to state what punishment should be meted out. This was entirely In accordance with the spirit of the Act, which was to relegate all these matters to a Court of Justice. -If once the House began to deal with special cases there would be no end to_ the thing, and they would have to deal with every case that occurred. .... Mr KELLY said ho would vote for the Act brought down by the Government as necessary to meet future cases, but he would oppose the proposed new clause, though he would support any other way of relieving Mr Pilliet from the penalties and disabilities he had incurred.

Mr CONOXiIiY endorsed what had been said by the hon. member for Inangahua, more especially as one of the Judges was absent from the colony. If they were all agreed that the penalty was too severe, why not say so, instead of throwing the burthen on the Judges? Ho was not clear that the proposed clause, or any clause, should be tacked on to the Bill. It would be better to strike it out and bring in a Bill dealing with Mr Pilliet’s case only, though he would be glad to adopt such an amendment as that proposed by the honorable member for Hcathcoto. If the proposed clause was passed it would bo treating the Judges with a contempt which they did not deserve, and which he hoped they would never deserve. Why, people would be comingto the Housoyear after year and saying that the Judges had been too hard on them. With the permission of the hon. member for Heathcote, he would move an “Whereas, on the trial of an election petition regarding the election of a memberfor the Houseof representatives for the Stanmore Electoral District, the Judges who tried the said petition find that W. H. Pilliet had been guilty of an illegal practice, and declared the election void; and whereas such finding has been reported to the House of Representatives and duly entered in the Journals of the House; and whereas it appears that the illegal act committed by the said W. H. Pilliet was of a purely technical character, and that he should be relieved from the penalties and disqualifications imposed by the said Act: Be it therefore enacted ‘ that the said W. H. Pilliet is hereby freed and discharged from and indemnified _ against all penalties, forfeitures, incapacities, and disabilities that he may have incurred by reason of anything he may have done in and about the election held in and for the Stanmore Electoral District in the month of December, 1881; and, notwithstanding anything he may have done, or omitted to do, he shall be eligible for election to a seat in the House of Representatives, and shall hold the appointments he held prior to the said election, and possess the privileges he possessed prior to the said election ns if he had not aommitted any offence under the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act, 1881, and no proceedings for any offence under the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act, 1881, committed by him prior to the passing of this Act shall be commenced against him in any Court, provided that the foregoing provisions shall pot be taken as altering, or in any way affect-

ing, the certificate of the Judges that the said Stanmore election is void.’” ’ Colonel TRIMBLE was of opinion that a few words should be added to the proposed clause to make it quite clear that the Stanmore election was void. He would vote against the amendment unless it was brought in as a sep A rate Bill. There should have been a Bill to amend the Act, and another Bill to deal with the case before them. Mr MONTGOMERY was of opinion that the amendment of the law should not bo mixed up with Mr Pilliet’s case. Messrs HURST and DE LAUTOUR were of a similar opinion. . On the question being put, Mr Turnbulls proposed new clause was lost, and Mr Connolly’s amendment carried on the voices. It was also decided on the voices that the clause as amended should form part of the Bill. Mr BARRON wished to move the addition of another clause, to the effect that any person convicted of corrupt practices in connection with any election should be incapable of sitting in the House of Representatives or of sitting in the Legislative Council for a period of five vears from tho date of his conviction. Mr KELLY thought notice should he given of the intention to move such a clause. Mr BARRON said ho would withdraw his amendment. Tho Bill was then reported with amendments, and it was resolved that they should he considered on Tuesday next. The Speaker left the chair at 5.30 p.m.

EVENING SITTING. Tho Speaker resumed the chair at 7.30 p.m. MESSAGE FROM THE COUNCIL. A message was received from the Legislative Council, saying that a Bill had been passed to amend the law relating to affirmations and declarations, and asking the concurrence of the House of Representatives. The Bill was read first time, and its second reading made an order of the day for Tuesday next. WEST COAST PEACE PRESERVATION BILL On the order of the day for the second reading of the West Coast Peace Preservation Bill, the debate was resumed. Mr. TOMOANA agreed that great responsibility had bean thrown on the Native Minister in dealing with West Coast affairs. He thought the Bill was right when it stated that Te Whiti should not be tried, but he hoped the Native Minister would listen to what he had to say in the matter. The Government probably thought it would bo useless to try Te Whiti, but would they give him back tho 10,000 acres mentioned in the reserve? He came of a tribe which knew how useless it was for the Maoris to go to law. Te V/hiti had said he would never agree to have money raised to have his case tried, and that was why he thought the action of the Government was proper. Te Whiti should he detained for a time, then taken to the place from whence he came, and the 10,000 acres given back to him. These were his thoughts on the matter, hut his colleagues had given their views, and he had to support them. He was quite willing that Te Whiti should-come to the bar of the House, so that they might hear what he had to say for himself, but Te Whiti would not say anything in his own defence. He proposed that the speeches made by the new members on this subject should he translated into the Maori language, so that the Maoris might read them. Mr TURNBULL agreed with what_ the Native Minister had said, when in Opposition —that Native matters should he kept apart from party politics. He would feel it his duty that night to most severely censure the Native Minister for his public acts, but that would not in any way affect his opinion of him as a private gentleman. The two cases to which he would endeavor to confine himself were, whether W 0 had caused the trouble with the Maori people, and whether Te Whiti should be brought to trial or not. For three years he and other hon. members had been waiting for the hon. member for the Thames to vindicate the Native policy pursued by him when in office, but time after time they had been doomed to disappointment. He could draw no other conclusion than that we had been extremely guilty in our dealings, and that that guilt lay not with the present Ministry, but with the hon. member for the Thames, who had for a considerable time had control of the Native Department. That hon. gentleman had announced himself as tho Saviour of the Native race, hut when the timo came for action, when the time came to take the steps that would probably prevent a war between the two races, nothing was done. When that hon. gentleman was in office the condition of affairs was such that the Natives were favorable to the survey, and when it was really started a most offensive course was pursued in unnecessarily taking a road through the cultivation of Titokowaru. There was no reservation of fishing places, cultivations, and burial grounds; in fact, everything was done that could possibly irritate them. There might not appear to he much in this, hut to the Natives these were matters of the greatest ■importance. Of course, the hon, member for the Thames would say that the reserves were made, hut lie could prove that they were not made—or, at any rate—that they were not known to the surveyors. The Government, in fact, took action calculated to goad these men to rebellion, instead of being careful to conciliate them. There was a time when Te Whiti was disposed to meet us—when lie proposed to divide his blanket with us—but nothing was done._ These were unpardonable errors, and in his opinion led to the whole difficulty. Te Whiti had been neglected, while Tawhiao’s company had been sought, and the hon. member for the Thames had taken the ring off his finger to present it to Rewi. The most important coneideration of all was, whether Te Whiti should he brought to trial or not. In one respect he considered the Bill a most objectionable one, for it asked the House to constitute itself- a court, and to this he most strongly objected. Te Whiti and Tohn had been kept in gaol from November to May, and though they were being taken about the country now, he would ask why this course was not adopted before, when it might have been productive of some good. Te Whiti’s desire was to elevate his people, and he defied any one to show that his influence ; had ever been for anything hut good. We had brought ruin to these people by our neglect of them, and by introducing our vices amongst them, and had never done our duty by any attempt to elevate them. Government agents had bean guilty of the most disgraceful conduct in their dealings with the Maoris, and though the Natives might in past times have slain our thousands we had slain their tens of thousands by the manner in which we had treated them. He anticipated that when Te Whiti went back he would use the knowledge he had gained to endeavor to advance his tribe in civilisation. He must be brought to trial, however, and dealt - with in accordance with the law, Ha would vote against the Bill, and be happy in the reflection that he had not assisted to perpetuate a gross act of injustice. If the House was to be constituted a Court, let those who were to be tried appear before it, and say what they had to say. (Hear, hear.) ’ Mr HURST said it was useless to deny that a state of anarchy prevailed on the west coast of this island before the recent action of the Government, and this was caused by Te Whiti, though he might have had no had motives. In fact, Te Whiti was scarcely, responsible for his actions, and there was no knowing what the result might have been. He considered the utterances of seme hon. members who had spoken on the subject likely to prove most dangerous in their effects on the minds of the Maoris, and he was sure in tune to come the hon. member for Christchurch South would regret what he had said. That hon. member had promised to support both the Bills if he_ could extort a promise from the Native Minister that the reserves should b* returned to the Natives, in almost complete ignorance of the true position of affairs. After all the trouble that had occurred over unfulfilled promises, many of which were made without the sanction of Parliament, an impartial tribunal had been appointed to inquire into and report on the whole matter, and Te Whiti and his friends were asked to come forward and state what they wanted. The present Government had spared no_ effort to meet the Maoris fairly, and to conciliate them. When one of the most able members of the Government thought the time had coir e to take Te Whiti, hisjcolleagues preferred to part with him rather than risk a war; but the time came when action was necessary, and then they came to the House and asked for a. vote of LIOO,OOO, which was readily granted to them. Then they went to that colleague whom they had parted with before, and asked him to carry out the course which he had previously indicated as the correct one. All this showed the spirit in which the Government had acted, and he thought they had a right now to come to the House and ask for power to deal with Te Whiti and Tohu. They had taken Te Whiti when the ordinary means at command of the law could not deal with him, and it was really marvellous how all tho difficulties were overcome without a hitch. As time went on the, act of the Government on that occasion would be more fully appreciated. (Hear, hear.) By way of contrast to former Governments, the Native Minister was teaching the Maoris that he meant what he said, whether it was yes or no, and for this ha deserved the thanks of the colony. Was it to be supposed that the whole of the reserves were to be handed back to the Natives without any sort of guarantee for their future good behaviour? were betraying no vindictiveness in the matter, but were simply acting with proper caution. Suppose Te Whiti were triedand convicted ? He might be sentenced to six months’ imprisonment, and when the time came for his release the Native Minister—Parliament not being m session—would have to prevent his return to his people, and then < come down to the House next session for another Indemnity Bill. In passing the Bill, he’ felt that no wrong would he done to. Te Whiti, that the peace of the colony would he that he would be refused no reasonable luxury while he was detained. Therefore he would vote for the second reading of the’Bill. _ (Hear, hear.) ' Mr rFERGUS said-there was a concensus of opinion on the Coast with reference to the action taken at Parihaka, that the Native Minister was the right man in the right place, and that lie had been the means of getting the colony out of a great difficulty. After referring to tlie causes of tho trouble on the Coast, and to the growth of Te Whiti’s influence, he said he believed that but for the action of the Native Minister there would have been innumerable murders oa the West Coast, and the Govern-

| ment would have been charged with far greater 1 crimes than those which their greatest enemies brought against them now. (Hear, hear.) Suppose Te Whiti had been allowed to remain? He might have kept the Maoris quiet for a time, but at any moment his influence might have failed, or he might have died, and then the settlers would have been at the mercy of a hand of fanatics, including such ruffians as Hiroki and Titokowaru! Under these circumstances he would support the Bill before the House. (Applause.) Mr BRACKEN said all he asked was that the House would accede to the very reasonable request that Te Whiti might be allowed to answer for himself, or, at any rate, be allowed to appear at the bar of the House by counsel. He and his friends wanted to hear both sides of the question, and he appealed once more to the sense of justice of the gentlemen on the Ministerial benches to grant this one due concession, and not to allow the finger of scorn to be pointed at the colony for all future time. Mr HURSTHO USE referred to the different positions in whicli the North and South Islands had been placed with respect to the Maori race. After all, it came hack to the question whether we had any right in the country at all, and in considering this we might get into difficulties. But wo were here, and he would ask whore Te To Whiti was in 1800 ? Who ever heard of him then? The confiscated land on the Coast was not settled, simply because we had not men to settle it with. He did not believe in Te (Whiti, and had never believed in him, though lie considered him to be a great orator. We had never withdrawn our right to the confiscated land, for we had made a road, and the Natives were perfectly well aware of this. The leader of the Opposition—if there was an Opposition—seemed to think that the House was asked to do a great wrong, but if Te 'Whiti was allowed to go at large, the Government would have to maintain a large armed force to protect the settlers on the Plains, unless we were to have a repetition of the bloody tragedies of past years. He would rather give Te Whiti £IOOO a-year and a home to live in Christchurch than allow him to go free. Te Whiti had never borne arms against us, but his followers were the very scum of the Native population of the West Coast, attracted towards him by his promises to do what he had not clone. (Applause.) Mr MOSS had spoken before on the subject, but desired to again urge on tho Government that a great injustice would be done if these men were allowed to go to trial. Mr MORRIS said it appeared to him that the Bill had met with very general assent. It had been said that Te Whiti should he allowed to appear at the bar of the House by counsel, but they had nothing before them to prove that. Wi Parata had no authority to make any such request on Te Whiti’s behalf. Col. TRIMBLE said if Te Whiti had expressed a wish to be tried at the bar of the ; House, he would have entreated the Government not to deal with the Bill until they heard him ; but who was this man who said he was empowered to petition them on Te Whiti’s behalf? He was one of those who had gone to Parihaka, hut he did not belong to that place, and when strangers were told to clear out he put his blanket on his back and cleared out to his home at Kapiti, leaving his son behind, hut his son was soon bundled out by the Constabulary. So far as purity went, he thought that Te Whiti was the equal of any man in the House, and in intellectual qualification ho was tho superior of many men in that House. He regarded Te Whiti as a personal friend, and he supported this Bill in order to save him from himself for the present, in order that he might be able to do good to his countrymen in the future, believing that it would he for good. Why, directly they got back, the turmoil commenced again, and the attitude of the Natives was more alarming than it had ever been before. He thought tho Native Minister was likely to create some misapprehension when 1m said there had been preparation for the difficulty before he entered office. What was that preparation ? Why, when the Taranaki people, unable to get a force sent there, asked for arms, they were supplied with worse than useless arms and ammunition. It had been stated that we had treated the Maoris badly, but in the whole history of colonisation no Native race had ever been treated so well or with so ■ much forbearance. It had been argued that we had removed the confiscation by paying Natives for some of tho West Coast land. Money had been paid to some Natives to ensure tho peaceful occupation of this land, but was our very considerateness to he brought against us ? The right of the Natives to return to that confiscated land had never been conceded for one moment. (Hear, hear.) Referring to the provisions of the Bill, it struck him that the proposal of the hon. member for Auckland Ea-t to leave out the preamble could not be entertained at all, for there was not a single word in it that was not true in fact. He thought the number of Maoris who were permitted to assemble without bringing themselves under the provisions of the Act might be extended, and ho would recommend that two Justices of the Peace, one of whom should be a Resident Magistrate, should have power to set the law in motion instead of one Magistrate. Sir GEORGE GREY asked whether the Native Minister intended to reply, and whether the Government would accept alterations made in Committee ? He would also like the Native Minister to sketch _ the future policy of the Government in dealing with reserves, &c. Such a course would tend to relieve the minds of many hon. members. He was not aware of any recognised Opposition at present, or of any leader of the Opposition, hut he thought an agreement had been entered into by members generally- opposed to the Government to treat this question upon its own merits, and to allow each individual to follow the dictates of his own conscience. (Applause.)

The Hon. J. BRYCE replied to the question with great pleasure. He intended to reply shortly on the debate. _ He would also explain why tho Government did not think they could consent to the omission of the whole of the preamble. He would also have great pleasure in stating what the Government were doing and proposed to do with regard to reserves. (Hear, hear.) At 10,30 tho Speaker left the chair for half an hour.

Mr TAWHAI said he was glad that the amendment gave him an opportunity of speaking again, as the Government had invited free discussion of the subject. Hon. members had asked whether Wi Parata had authority from Te Whiti to act on his behalf, and some said he had not. Tho petition could not speak, but judges in the House decided that Wi Parata had no authority from Te Whiti. Why was not Te Whiti allowed to come to the House who brought the Scriptures ? Was it not the Europeans—and why was Te Whiti found guilty for acting up to the Scriptures? Te Whiti’s religion was simply acting up to the Scriptures, and through that he was said to be acting contrary to the laws of the Queen. The Treaty of Waitangi promised equal privileges to Natives and British subjects, but had the Government in the capture and detention of Te Whiti acted up to this particular provision of the Treaty of Waitangi ? Was it right for the Government to commit a wrong and then get legislation to legalise it ? The Government having acted illegally should consent to Te Whiti being heard at the bar of the House. If Te Whiti were insane there were asylums to which he could be sent, and it he had been guilty of murder let him pay the penalty of tho law. When the Christians came they told them to pray with upturned faces to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, hut while the Maoris were praying the Christians came and dragged the land from under their feet. (Laughter.) He thanked Mr Bryce for the way in which he had preserved peace, for; if a gun had been fired there would have been trouble throughout the territory, and danger to the Maori women and children. He asked the Government to be strong in bringing about some means by which Maoris and Europeans could act together under the one law. (Applause.) Mr J. BUCHANAN said the words uttered by the hon. member for" Auckland East relieved him from party ties, but he was sorry that an avowal that he knew of no Opposition should have escaped his lips, as such a state of affairs was destructive of the true principles of party government. If the Bill before the • House could be made more stringent he would support it, but it should not include only one race, for thera were men on the West Coast • who deserved to he locked up just as well as Te Whiti—white men who had been the insti- • gators of trouble and bloodshed. If they had Been able to incarcerate many of the pakelia Maoris they would have saved the country expense, and would have also saved many lives. (Hear, hear.) In the reports that had been - laid before tho House the errors and deficiencies of the late Sir D. McLean had been brought up, and, though he did not desire to speak ill of the dead, those who had supported him ■should not escape their fair share of the blame. Under all the circumstances he did not think the House would pass the Bill without some considerable amendment in the direction he had indicated. He feared that the hon. member for Auckland East, when on the Government benches, had allowed himself and bis conscience to be overborne by his colleagues, and consequently felt himself tied now in dealing with the Bill before the House. A smile had over- . spread the faces of Ministers when the hon. member had spoken, for they felt that without his help the Opposition were powerless. (Hear, hear.) He feared, however, that on the question the hon. gentleman and himself would be found in opposite lobbies. (Applause.) Mr J. O. BROWN opposed the Bill, and gave his reason fqr doing so at considerable length. Major TE WHEORO thought the House should consider the petition of Wi Parata with leniency, andthongh authority from Te Whiti might not have been obtained, it might be well to let him appear at the bar by counsel. The question that the Bill be read a second time was then put, and a division was called for, the result being—Ayes, 52; Noes, 14. The following is the division list : Ayes, 52.—AUwright, Atkinson, Beetliam, Bryce, Cadman, Conoliy, Dick, Dodson, Feldwick, Fergus, Fitz Gerald, Fulton, George, J. Green, M. W. Green, Grey, Hamlin, Hobbs, Hurst, Hursthouso, C. J. Johnston. W. W. Johnston, Kelly, Levestam, Levin, Mason. McDonald, Mcllraith, J. McKenzie, McMillan, Mitcbelson, Morris, _ Munro, O’Qalloghan, Peacock, Pearson, Petrie, Postle-

thwaite, Rolleston, Rutherford, Sheehan, Shephard, Stevens, Sutter, Sutton, Swanson, Tole, Trimble, Watt, 'Whitaker, J. B. Whyte, J. G. Wilson. Noes, 14. —Bracken, J, Buchanan, Daniel, De Lautour, Duncan, Joyce, Montgomery. Moss, Taiaroa, Tawhai, Tomoana, Te Wheoro, Turnbull, W. White. Pairs.— Ayes: Weston, Seaton, Wynn Williams, Thomson, J. E. Brown. Noes.—Macandrew, Hutchison, Shrimski, Holmes, Bathgate. Mr. Holmes’ amendment, “ That the second reading be postponed until the Government have brought in a Bill to deal with the reserves of Te Whiti and his people,” was therefore lost. The Hon. Mr BRYCE said he would make s very short reply. He had been accused of harshness towards the Maoris, but he did not think this could be borne out ; nor could it be stated that he had pressed hard on Te Whiti. But for the remarks made by the member for Auckland City East he would not have replied at all. He believed that hon. member meant what he said, and considered his remarks most handsome and generous. (Hear, hear.) They reminded him of the gallant gentleman we knew in his youthful days. (Applause.) A few months ago he had before his mind’s eye slaughtered Maoris and settlers standing beside their burning houses and dead wives and children, and holding him responsible. (Applause.) Happily the result had been different. (Hear, hear). He thought it_ would be seen that it would be scarcely judicious to withdraw the preamble of the Bill, though it might be altered. Tho Bill might be voted from end to end in the House of Commons, and it was well that it should state what it meant. He did not think one particular alteration could be made without destroying the usefulness of the Bill—he referred to the proposal that the power to disperse assemblies of Maoris should only be given to two Magistrates and not to one. The Commission recommended reserves of 203,000 acres for the Maoris, but when the proclamation was issued Te Whiti was given 14 days to say whether he would agree to the proposals of the Government, and warned that, if he did not do so, the land might pass away from him for ever._ The Maoris were dispersed, and Te Whiti was told that a reduction of 10,000 acres would be made on account of the trouble that had been given, from the two large reserves, but that Government would deal liberally tjiem in regard to smaller reserves. In his opinion the reduction of the 5000 acres on the Waimate Plains reserves had such a good effect that there would be no trouble there in the future. They would not run the risk of losing any more. It was the full intention of the Government to carry out the intentions of the Commissioners, but the Government would not give the Maoris the reserves, whether they behaved themselves or not. They would, however, treat them kindly and liberally. He did not think he ought to sit down without paying a tribute to the hon. member for the Thames, whom he had succeeded in office. It was no new support of the Native policy of the Government that that hon. member was giving now. He had had occasion many times to attack the Government, and he (Mr Bryce) had had occasion to attack the previous Government, but there had been no hitting below the belt, and after the debates they had met as friends in the lobbies. (Hear, hear.) He was greatly taken with tho speech of the hon. member for Akaroa. It was not a practical speech, but it showed a belief in that faith which had the power to remove mountains. He had described Te Whiti as a man whose character possessed no flaw, and he would have liked to tell him a few things. He might state that there was no truth in the statement that a road had been taken through growing crops ; and even if that had been the case, his orders were to fence both sides of the road. He intended to make one reference of importance before he sat down. The hon. member for Mount Ida had delivered a good speech, but it was founded on a misconception, when he stated that Te Whiti’s people had never been in rebellion. He asserted positively that Te Whiti had incited others to rebellion, and he was aware that the whole of his hapu or tribe hacl been in active rebellion to a man. He believed that Te Whiti himself had also been in rebellion. Mr Bryce then read letters from Te Whiti, sent to the Home authorities by Sir George Grey when Governor, to show that Te Whiti had expressed rebellious sentiments even then, while Tohu had followed the same course. The hon. member concluded by saying that Te Whiti had stated positively that lie had not authorised Wi Parata to act as attorney for him, or to employ counsel for him at his trial or before the House. (Applause.) Sir GEORGE GREY said that when he had said there was no Opposition, and no leader of the Opposition, he meant on the question before the House. If he were to suffer for the course ho had pursued in this matter he believed the country would say he had done his duty. (Hear, hear.) This being settled, he could relapse into his proper position, but he would do his best to bring about a solution of the difficulty which had so agitated the two races. In Committee he would endeavor to make some alteration in the Bill. On th’e question, That the Bill bo committed on Tuesday next. Major Te WHEORO moved as an amendment, “That Te Whiti and Tohu be heard at the liar of the House, either personally or by counsel, before the Bill is committed.” Mr MOSS seconded the amendment.

On the motion for the committal of the Bill being put, a division was called for, the result being—Ayes, 43 ; Noes, 22. The motion was therefore carried. At 1.45 a.m. the House rose.