PROVINCIAL CHANGES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4200, 5 September 1874, Page 3

PROVINCIAL CHANGES.

THE PREMIER’S SPEECH IN THE LATE DEBATE. The second debate on the subject of Provincial changes in the North Island ended afc such a late hour that it was only possible for us to report it at tbe time iu very abbreviated form. We print now, in fuller form, some of the more important passages in the Premier’s speech, explanatory of the action and intentions of the Government: —• ' CHARGES OF CHANGED OPINIONS. Mr. Vogel said : I have been very much taunted about having changed my opinions. There can be no question, I think, that no one has endeavored, more anxiously than I have, to uphold the Provinces; There is no one to whom I would yield, so far as regards the desire I have had to uphold -the present institutions of the Colony. But it is no* fair to say that I have never given warning to the House —that I have never indicated that in my opinion the time would come when the difficulties arising from the system would be so great, that Provincialism, especially in this island, would have to give way. ' I stated, in 1870, that if the maintenance of Provincial institutions was proved to be inconsistent with the giving effect to the immigration and public works policy, it would be so much the worse for Provincial institutions, and that they would have to yield. It cannot be said-that in 1872'we did not contemplate a contingency of the present kind, for in that session we brought down a Bill enabling the Colonial Government to administer the affairs of effete Provinces' which proved to be not able to carry on their own government. Suggestions have been thrown out, that it would have been a more politic course to starve the Provinces out of existence ; to bring them to their senses by withholding all share of the Colonial revenue, and so forcing them to come to the Parliament and ask that the management of their affairs might be taken over. But I do not think it would have been at all statesmanlike to he the means of inflicting a certain amount of wrong and misery upon the people in order to bring them to a right way of thinking politically. I believe that tho proper course for men holding positions of • influence in public life is to come forward boldly, and to apeak plainly, when they anticipate evils—not to wait calmly and idly until evils have corns and have worked a wished-for result, and then to say, “I told you so—l saw those evils coming.” It would have been very easy four years ago, for the Government not to have invited action by the House—not to have riven extraneous aid to the Provinces, but to have left them to run on to such an end as we see now must como in this island. I believe that v/e adopted the more honest course when we endeavored to maintain Provincial institutions as long as it was possible to do so ; and when we saw that it -was impossible to continue those institutions to say so boldly, to come to the House with the courage of our opinions, and to test the opinion of the House upon the point. All the statements that have been made about the sudden determination come to by the Government on this matter—and about my preparing a recent speech during a quarter of an hour’s adjournment of the House —are incorrect. I refer to them merely to say this : it is, the last straw that breaks the camel’s back. "What has taken place with me has taken place with thousands of other men, in the Colony—the -gradually accumulating force of circumstances and of arguments has compelled them reluctantly to yield their convictions, and to come round to the opinions we are holding now. Nothing, I think, can be more remarkable than the fact that, by the silent influence which thought and circumstances have upon men’s minds, opinions upon the question of Provincialism have throughout the country undergone the widest possible change. All the assertions that have been made about my having come down with the resolutione because of irritation as connected with this Province of Wellington, are also" very wide of the mark. I have, no doubt, instanced this Province as affording an example of evils that demanded a remedy. But matters connected with this Province are no more than links in -the groat chain of evidence, which has been fastening itself upon my mind. I have not disguised, and I never shall disguise, that the attitude taken by the Provincialists with re--spect to the State Forests Bill did open my eyes very widely; but my eyes were opened very widely last year also. When I came to the House last year with that most modest proposal, that, after a certain time, tho groat estate of the waste lands of the Crown should render some little assistance towards carrying out the main trank railway system of the country, and was mot by the assurance from the representatives of Provinces in tho Middle Inland that no portion of those lands could he parted with, but that they would prefer spending £500,000 in the purchase of Native lands in this island ; when, this session, I asked for a fragment of the public estate towards establishing a system of State forests, and found myself confronted by the same difficulty—when X was told that tho land sacredly belonged to the Provinces—when I saw that tho Provinces were ready to givo land for almost every conceivable object except for great Colonial objects : all this did, indeed, make a most forcible impression upon my mind. And I say that the land question—not the re-opening of tho compact of 1850, or its confirmation, hut this question of dealing with tho land itself—does and must exercise a material influence upon tho question of tho abolition of the Provinces in tho North Island. THU n-.OrOSED CHANGES. —THEIR ECONOMY, Wo were going to introduce the French prifet system, the honorable member for Selwyu said : that was one of the hits made by tho honorable gentleman. It seems to me,

however, that a proposal to obtain a plebiscite of the people—and the idea of “stumping" th 6 Provinces, and appealing to popular prejudices, in order to catch a popular vote —is a much nearer approach to a French system than anything we have proposed. But how was it that the honorable member did not look with aversion upon the prefet system when he filled the position of Besident Minister for the Middle Island ? I was a member of the Government when that appointment was made. It never struck me that we were imitating the French system when we made it; and I do not think it struck the honorable member for Selwyn ; and yet we were doing so then, much more nearly than we shall by anything now proposed. One is necessarily, I suppose, subjected to a good deal of misrepresentation upon this question. Suppose we do propose to have a Besident Minister in Auckland, and a Government Agent in Hawke’s Bay and in Taranaki. One would suppose that such offices were utterly unknowil in the Colony. But, in fact, what I indicated as that which we thought we should desire to continue, has been done for a very long time. Since last session, scarcely a month has passed without a Minister being in Auckland ; and if we look back for many years we shall find that, except during the period of the session, the same has been the case. There has long been an agent of the General Government in Hawke’s Bay ; and, for Native matters more especially, there has been an agent in Taranaki. There is nothing new in this proposal of Ours. Vet the lion, member for the Hutt comes to the House this evening, and coolly states that we propose to introduce a “.Central Bureaucratic' Authority.” He has not condescended to use a single argument to show that such is the case ; and I say that nothing could he further from our intentions than that which he attributes to ns. We are asked, how we are going to save expenditure by what we propose ? lam not going to make—it is not suitable that I should attempt to make—a financial statement respecting the Provinces ; but every one who has any knowledge of Provincial affairs can see that either we can. save money or secure greater efficiency by substituting a strong Government in this island. We should save, at any rate, all the present legislative and executive expenditure, and that is not inconsiderable. We should save a very large proportion of the present police expenditure. As to survey expenditure, why Provincial and General Government surveyors are almost working side by side at present ; and we could certainly save in that direction. I think it was Dickens who said that, in the the United States, if you wore introduced to a stranger, yon might safely conclude that ho was a colonel or a general ; and so, if you meet a stranger in the country districts of this North Island, you may just as safely conclude that he is .a Government surveyor, tinder the head of miscellaneous expenditure, I believe we could save in many ways. As to police matters, they coiild be conducted at least with greater efficiency by means of, or in connection with, the Defence Force already organised by the Colony. As to public works, I need scarcely speak of saving ; for in this island they are not conducted as they are in the great Provinces of Otago and Canterbury, seeing that the Provinces of this island have only the form rather than the substance of government. In all these matters, I repeat that much could he saved, or greater efficiency ho, secured at the present cost. The bird’s-eye view afforded by the figures I quoted in moving the Government resolutions, must have convinced hou. members of that fact.

THE GOVERNMENT PARTY. No allegation made in the course of the recent debate was stranger than that as to the action of the Government breaking up their party. Anyone would suppose, from the way in which I have been taunted with changing my opinions and breaking up tbe party, that I was deserting a large majority of those who have been iu the habit of acting with me. What is really tbe case ? I find that of tbe members who assisted to put the Government' iu power, only four have, during tbe present debate, left the Government. I very 'much regret the separation, and I hope it will be but ' a temporary one, from those honorable gentlemen—[Messrs. Hunter, Macandrew, Reeves, and O’Rorke]. I have named the four honorable members who, having supported the Government which led to the present Government obtaining office, are now opposing our resolutions. Am Ito be told that, because of those losses, our party is broken up ? Is the fact that four supporters have left the Government a sufficient basis for the charge that the Government have deserted their followers, and broken up their party ? I think that the facts warrant an entirely different conclusion.

PUBLIC JISBDNDUnSTANDINCS. I had the honor of being, on Saturday evening, burned in effigy in Auckland. I mention the fact, only for the purpose of assuring hon. members that I do not feel any the' worse for it. So little, it appears, were the proposals of the Government understood in Auckland, and so usefully have the telegraph, and pens and ink, been employed in misdirecting the minds of men there, that a very serious misapprehension exists in the northern part of this island as to the nature of the Government's proposals. I say that if the people of Auckland would only look into this question as 'one of common sense, they could not hesitate a moment in hailing with delight, the boon which is offered them, of relief from all those sordid, and humiliating conditions which have surrounded them during the last few years. Can any man who, with his eyes open, has travelled about these islands, have a doubt respecting the seat of Government, or as to the necessity of localising the land revenue ? Can anybody suppose that the sensible men of Auckland will, for the sake of two ideas of the most visionary kind, renounce that which is now offered them—the opportunity of going on, of themselves, with the ordinary work of settling, and governing that part of the Colony—o£ affording proper education to the young of their community of enjoying those advantages which so widely distinguish the Southern Province! from those of * the North V I refuse to believe or to suppose anything of the kind. It is simply a question of misunderstanding the Government proposals. I freely admit that the question of the seat of government has nothing to do with the question of the'abolition of the Provinces in this island; and that the ratification of the com--pact of 1850 has nothing really to do with it. But what were wc to do ? Suppose the Government had proposed to abolish the Provinces, and had not mentioned either of the other matters. Suppose two Superintendents, one from the South and the other from the North, to have listened to such a proposal. Immediately one of them rushes to the members from his Province, and exclaims, “You see what the Government are going to do. They are going to upset the compact of 1856, apd take possession of our land revenue.” The other Superintendent rushes to the members from his Province, and says, “You see! The Government mean to remove the seat of government I ” That is what really occurred. What can we do against such misrepresentation ? Is it a case of. “ Bardell v. Pickwick,” again. “ Chops and tomato sauce!" “ Chops ! Gracious heavens! and tomato sauce! ” Heartless old villain, so to trifle with the feelings of a poor lone widow! What is lie not capable of doing ? And what are we to do when it is said, again and again, that wo intend to remove the seat of government? Wo can but point to our resolutions, and repeat that such is not the case. So as to the compact of 1856. When it is reiterated that we desire to upset it, we can only say that wo do not. We cannot telegraph, and write, and get publication in different parts of the Colony, as hon. members can. I absolutely read in that enlightened paper, the Lyttelton.Timet, a statement that the proposals of the Government were, broadly, to the effect of upsetting the compact of 1856, and taking possession of the land revenue of the Middle Island. Hon. members will see, therefore, why it was necessary to refer, in the resolutions, to the compact and to the seat of government question, though neither of those subjects has, necessarily, anything to do with the abolition of the North Island Provinces. To-night, the hon. member for the Hutt has solemnly propounded that wo propose to substitute for ex r isting institutions in this Island “ a Central Bureaucratic Authority,” just as though we

had ever -proposed or contemplated such a thing. He takes the thing for granted; and, if not his hearers, very many of those who read his speech, will* be ready to believe that vrS do propose such a change. If men are only bold enough in making their assertions, there is scarcely any assertion that some people will not believe. In Auckland, apparently, ninety-nine men out of a hundred say, “ True, we object to Provincialism ; but,” some add, “what we want is, that all' the Provinces should be destroyed. We are not content that only the Provinces of this Island should be abolished.” To which I reply, that, as long as Otago and Canterbury can carry on the duties of government with advantage, I see no reason why .the Government or the House should be led away by a cry that what is done as to one Province must be done as to all. So long 1 as those two Provinces can be carried on with advantage to the Colony, I hold that we should allow Them to be carried on. . THE LAND AND LAND REVENUE. I said the other day, what I had said before, and what I now say emphatically, that I do not consider “ Superintendents” and “ Provincial Executives” in the Middle Island, to be words that are synonyms for “ land” and “land revenue.” Ido not admit that there is any connection between having the forming and enjoying the latter. Certain persons may wed themselves to the belief that there ia such a connection : but I am sure that the House has not such a belief, and that very few people outside the House will continue to hold it. Superintendents and Provincial Governments will be acceptable in Otago and in Canterbury as long as they are successful in the local government of those portions of the Colony. But those officers will not long be able to shelter themselves under the cry, “If you do not protect us, you ■will lose your laud revenue.” They may try to do so, and they may be successful for a time ; but the people of those parts of the Colony have cjuito sufficient penetration to be able to separate the form and substance from the shadow—the machinery from, the effect. They will be quite able to discern for themselves whether an improved system of government *l3 desirable ; and when they think it is desirable and procurable, they will be by no means averse to the change, from any fear of losing what they possess. But the course the Government are to pursue will give to the Middle Island the very strongest possible security for the possession of their land and land revenue. .What do we propose ? If any hon. members have an idea that we intend to introduce some new style of government which will gradually be built up into something like the Provincial form, they altogether misunderstand our intentions. What we propose is to substitute for the Provincial form a departmental management of such ordinary services as can be quite well managed by the General Government ; and, on the other hand, to very much onlargej-and make’ substantial, the local form of Government which exists throughout mpst of the British Colonies, by which the residents in districts have a large share of personal control placed in their ,hands. We propose that such districts shall have revenues upon which they can depend, and shall not have to be constantly looking and asking for eleemosynary aid ; that the rates they locally raise shall go to assist in constructing the smaller works of the country ; and that they shall be ready to lend assistance, by means of representations, to the larger districts which have to carry- out larger works. We propose that the land revenue, which has, most singularly hitherto been looked upon as available for.all kinds of purposes, shall be essentially localised, and shall be placed under local control. We propose that a share of the land fund shall pass in aid of the local works carried on by the smaller divisions or sub-districts ; that a part shall go to the larger districts , formed of groups of sub-districts, which are capable of carrying on larger works, such as branch railways. We by no means ignore the fact that . the Colony has work in its charge, which will be for the benefit of the districts generally, and that a part of the land revenue should go for Colonial purposes. We are quite willing that the land revenue of the Middle Island shall remain intact and untouched ; but, on the other hand, we recognise the necessity of creating a landed estate for the North Island. We have and do recognise that; and I am quite sure that until such time as this island becomes settled and colonised, tbe Colony will gladly lend its aid to acquire as much land for the North Island as can be acquired with ad-

vantage. TUB TIME FOB CHANGE. Xloii. gentlemen liave asked, “ What is the necessity for these changes ?” Ido not think it altogether imperative to answer such questions, for I am sure that in men’s minds generally there must exist ,a conviction that such changes are necessary. But if any one wants a broad reason why something should be done, I ask him to recollect what was done last session, and what was proposed in IS7O. In 1870, when the immigration and public works policy was brought down, it was proposed to borrow £10,000,000, of which £3,000,000 were to be for railways ; or, if the money were not borrowed, £8,000,000 was to be represented by guarantees and by payments in laud. ,The land of the Colony was, essentially, to come in aid of the construction of, railways. But what is the result '! We have sanctioned the borrowing of £10,000,000 ; but it is bitterly mortifying to me to know that only £0,500,000, instead of £8,000,000, are for railways. ■ There is thus a difference of £1,500,000 ; and every hon. member must know that it is represented by the expedients to which we have had to submit in order to purchase support from the Provinces—in order to induce thorn to allow ua to carry on the immigration and public works' policy. Whether it would have been wiser in -1870 to have gone in for the double struggle, I am not now prepared to say. I believe that the Colony was then in so depressed a state that it would not have been wise 'to have engaged in such a struggle : but now its prosperity is so assured, that men are able to be plainly outspoken ; and it can be no longer concealed that the maintenance of Provincial institutions in this island is inconsistent -with carrying out economically, and to the advantage of the Colony, the immigration and public works policy. THE GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS. My amendment will speak for itself to the country ; but it will be the duty of the Government to bring in next session a measure which will deal as comprehensively with the whole subject as is possible, in presence of the fact of the Government not having possession. X must ask lion, gentlemen, however, not to suppose that everything can be done at once. It cannot. The decisions of Parliament are liable to be reversed or afnended ; and year by year the system in this island will be open to amendment. But we shall not propose or attempt anything new. Wo simply desire to have a form of local government in this island such as is to Lo found in almost every British Colony, from Canada to New South Wales and. Victoria. Our resolutions were moved, and our Bill will he brought in, not because of the compact of, 1856, but because wo believe in what that compact provides. I believe, and the hon. member for Auckland City West (Mr. Williamson) stated honestly the other night that lie believed, that the compact was binding upon the Colony. .Under our proposals, if there were no such compact, we should still be asserting its principle—the localisation of the land revenue. We. should have asserted the principle of the division of the country into districts convenient for local government—the distinction between small works and works of a larger class—the determination' to see the land revenue, not misapplied, hut applied to suitable works of a largo and of a small character : all this, I say, we should have asserted if the compact of 1856 had never been heard of. Indeed, if there had been no such compact, the best thing wo could have done would have boon to make one—if such a course were necessary to the establishment of the principle of the localisation of the land revenue. We propose to give a good landed estate to the North Island, so as to open to it prospects of a large land revenue. Wo propose to continue to purchase, as was done last year, at the expense of the Colony, a landed estate for the North Island. We have done, and propose to do this, for the benefit of this island, but with a full recognition of local claims to the large land revenue of tho Middle Island.

ANTICIPATED OPPOSITION. Whatever others may say as to. there being no necessity for change, the Government, and those who think with-them, have a very strong feeling in the opposite direction. But for that feeling, we might have ended the session without the warm debate which has been provoked. We began convinced of the necessity of action, and in the course of the debate the couylction of that necessity was greatly strengthened. \Ve have seen the vested Provincial interest not content to rely upon itself in opposing change, but driven for support to those who are most bitterly opposed to the Provinces, and who would annihilate them all without. hesitation, if they had the power. I believe that there are difficulties in oar way. I do not undervalue the opposition that may be aroused by strong appeals to party and personal prejudices. Ido not ignore the way in which exposition may be excited, by appealing to people whether they intend to submit to indignities—which indignities exist only in tbe imagination of those who describe them. I admit* that there 'is, perhaps, a struggle before us. But, on the other hand, I believe that our views will gain ground daily. I believe that men who may, at public meetings, be excited and lead away by frothy oratory, will, when left to look at things for themselves, awake to the fact that the thoughtful men of the Colony are all very much of our opinion ; and that they will recognise the weight of the fact that a Parliament which, in its early days, was strongly Provincial, has felt itself forced to set about effecting a change. So far from fearing an appeal to the country, I am confident ; that the result of such an appeal would strongly and nobly vindicate the course that has been taken. I repudiate altogether the right of a minority to dictate to the majoritythat this Parliament is not competent todeal with this question. I wholly deny that it is a new question, but if it were, I should still assert the right of Parliament to deal with it. THE OBJECT Off THE PROI’OSALS. X say that what we propose has for its object the opening such a future to this island as should be warmly welcomed by all who have the interest of the Colony at heart. When I see the vast disparity there is between Otago and Canterbury on one hand, and Auckland on the other—what advantages the people enjoy in the South which those in the North have not—l am irresistibly forced to the conclusion that it is not fair that colonists of New Zealand should be so differently circumstanced. I bold that there is no reason why the people of this island should not look for prosperity such as is enjoyed in the other island ; and that it can be secured without injury to the South. I believe that the public men of the Colony have bofore them the plain duty of helping to colonise and make prosperous this. North Island ; and it is because.l believe that such a result is opened to. us by the policy we propose, that, admitting all the disadvantages as to the circumstances in which our proposal is made, I feel that the Government and the House are pursuing the right'course in giving effect to that policy. X do not care to hold office a single hour beyond the time when I can think that I am, to the best of my ability, working for tbe good of the Colony. Public life can have no charm, for any right-minded man, unless he feels that he is performing his duty ; and it, is this feeling, and the love of doing good, that alone can animate public men, and enable them to get through the weary hard work that falls to their share. I have not disguised, in past years, my opinion that it was very desirable there should be in this House well defined parties ; and lam gratified by the knowledge that these proposals of the Government have been the means of cementing together a very strong party. I believe that that party is actuated by principles so distinct, and will be held together by such ties, that we may look forward to the parliamentary experience of the next few years as likely to be of an eminently satisfactory type—that we shall have an Opj)osition, and shall have a strong Govern- • ment—that we shall know clearly who are on one side and who on the other ; and that, I think, is .a state of parties most likely to conduce to beneficial Parliamentary Government.