PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4191, 26 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, AUGUST 21. THE PUBLIC WORKS AND IMMIGRATION LOAN BILL. f The Hon. Dr. GRACE (whose speech on this Bill, and on Mr. Waterhouss's resolutions, we have been unable to publish sooner) said : I trust that I shall not be expected to venture upon anything like an exhaustive reply to the able and authoritative speech of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse. It, in my opinion, is one of the most remarkable deliverances uttered in this Council. I regret on this occasion, as I have constantly had to regret since I came into this Council, that I have not that intimate acquaintance with the principles upon which finance is based that is so necessary to the consideration of these important subjects. But whilst I admit many of the premises on which the superstructure of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse's arguments is erected, I must say I differ with him in many of his important deductions. I take it that his first proposition is that the prosperity of the Colony at the present time, and during the last two years, has been mainly due to the increase in the value of our chief export I —wool. I am always glad to agree with the views of the hon. gentleman, and in this proposition I perfectly agree with him. I admit that the increase in our prosperity is chiefly due to this cause, and I admit that had our important exports not increased in value, the difficulties surrounding this enterprise would have been greatly intensified. I admit that we owe to that industry the largest portion of our present prosperity ; but our present wealth is merely the commencement that is to lead us to the safer and surer prosperity, which is likely to result when the public works scheme has matured. I thoroughly believe in an immigration and public works scheme. The danger is and always has been in its administration. I have not been backward in this Council , in raising my voice against any indication of mismanagement, extravagance, or maladministration. When first I had the honor of addressing the Council on this subject, I declared we were then in the position of a respectable firm, with nothing but our credit and our acquired experience in business to go upon —that our circumstances at the time were so pressing and our adversity so great, that we had little before us but our character for ability, our business habits, and the future which we would carve out for ourselves. I admit that in the furtherance of that future the fortunate increase in the value of our exports has been a material element in securing prosperity to our scheme and in lessening the dangers in store for us. The basis of the position which I feel called upon to assume in the present instance is this : Our public works have not as yet been reproductive, but in my opinion they very soon will be both directly and indirectly ; and further to strengthen the position I -have assumed, I would beg the attention of hon. members to this portion of the argument, which has scarcely been sufficiently dwelt upon by the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse. Of those eighteen millions of money for which we will be liable, there yet remains unexpended about five and a-half millions. Of those six millions of money to which he referred—and upon the danger of flooding the market with which he dealt with judgment and care—there is a sum of a million and a-half recently negotiated. In addition to an unexpended five and a-half millions, there is still anamountof £200,000 or £300,000 unexpended. We have fair reason to expect that by the time the expenditure has reached these limits —the limits which the hon. gentleman himself has sketched for it as the smallest possible limit—the reproductive nature of this enterprise will be felt by the country, and that then small proprietors as well as large ones will add materially to our exports. Wool alone will not be an export, but in an increased degree grain, minerals, and wealth of various kinds. If a future of thi3 kind is not in store for us, why did we venture upon this enterprise ? Is this the time for us to pause or hesitate in the career opened to us ? Either it was a gross error to enter upon this enterprise, or being once committed to it, we are bound to go through. This leads me naturally to the portion of the Bill to which my hon. friend so forcibly objects. And I say that if any portion of the scheme is necessarily dependent upon the other portions, so is this portion of the measure now objected to of co-relative and co-equal importance with the rest, as flowing from and dependent upon it. It is true that at present the Colony appears to be crowded with immigrants, but let us remember the inclemency of the season ; let us remember that in winter new arrivals, as a rule, are half idle. But spring is coming, summer is rapidly approaching, while enterprise in the country, notwithstanding its cramped financial position, is capable of rising to the opportunities offered to it. And why ? Because the fertility of the soil is so great, it is so reproductive that it can bear the test. If you will accept my proposition that the fertility of the soil is as yet unexhausted —that the resources of the soil are but in their infancy—you must • go with me to this extent at least that the most that can come is temporary pressure, resulting in a greater measure of success for those who have been prudent enough to prepare. Granting even that the country will feel this pressure severely, it will necessarily follow that many of those large landed proprietors, now holding their heads hitfh in the air, who have purchased lands unwisely on advances from the banks, will only be too glad to part with those lands at prices which honest labor and . earnest enterprise can easily render reproductive. The pressing evil that stifles the life of this Colony is the grasping eagerness of large proprietors for more, and still more land. These men are not only injuring the Colony, but themselves also. They are depriving themselves of the power of usefully employing that land which they so eagerly seek, and they are keeping better men out. Yet I do not think the prospect is without hope. The land even at second prices will be cheaper than the prices ruling elsewhere ; and not only that, but the fertility, of that land adds three-fold—twice three-fold, and sometimes ten-fold—to the value of the land as compared with land in Victoria, for which a large price is paid. We know that the natural characteristics that have made our people tjreat will develop themselves in congenial countries. Our people will never settle down in large numbers in Australia as long as they can get a footing in this country. With fertile country, with an extensive seaboard offering opportunities for commerce and navigation, the future of the Colony is necessarily secure ; as is unquestionably tho future of the people who hold property in it. I never doubted for a moment —nor can I see why anybody should doubt it—that taxation must follow this public works and immigration scheme. When I advocated this measure in the beginning, I knew perfectly well that taxes were coming. But I systematically prepared for that. I carefully endeavored to husband my resources ; to improve my property ; and if lion, members have not done likewise, they have been foolish indeed. If hon. gentlemen have not taken advantage of the opportunity to prepare for a coming period of depression, I can only say that their wisdom is less than I supposed it to bo. But upon a question of this kind you must look beyond those smaller personal considerations. It is competent for those who consider themselves reasonably secure, to take a broad view of the question ; it is competent and necessary for us to take a national view of tho subject, and to bear in mind that, now we' have tho public cog-wheel in motion, if we do not work it with sufficient vigor, we shall miss our future and come ingloriously to grief. There is no stopping in such a policy, and in this ease action which at another time might be called rash, must now be looked on as the highest wisdom. Hesitato, and we are lost. I admit the enterprise has been a most daring one. I admit that it filled me with anxiety at the time it was proposed; but I say that, looking clearly at tho magnitude of the venture, I am willing to pay my share of its cost. I think it is impossible for us to take another view of the position now. But it is important that I should dwell evori briefly upon more important principles which lead mo to take this view. Amongst those sums which we are now invited' to consider and reject, I find £500,000 for immigration. I say that, if we stop immigra-

tion now, we will bring down an old house about our ears. Take even the experience of America, and the most wretched immigration that ever was known took place there. Statistics show that even those immigrants brought into the country an average of £7 10s. each. And I can say, within even the limit of my own experience, that the immigrants being introduced into this country—unworthy as they are considered to be—bring in a very large average of capital. We know well that capital always follows immigration. Capital all over the world is craving for an outlet ; and this capital craves more particularly for investment in land. Land will draw capital and people will settle upon the land. We are failing to settle thepeople upon the land ; but the forceof circumstances will settle them on theland in spite of us. We have very little right to take credit on that score ; for our legislation on the subject is a vast and discreditable muddle. But I know that when a working man casts his eyes on a sweet bit of land he will have it. The workiDg men will have the land. They will save money ; their wives and children will grub and pinch, but they will have the land. Legislate as we may they will have the land, and will take it from those large proprietors who are foolishly speculating beyond their means. They will be obliged to sell, but they will make a large profit out of their bargain. Our only chance is immigration. It is a desperate venture ; I do not deny it, and I do not question the Hon. Mr. AVaterhouse's figures. I admit that our debt compared with that of Australia is very groat. But our enterprise, our courage to face the difficulty, the internal resources of our country, are fully equal to the difference between our indebtedness and theirs. It must also be remembered how unfortunate a large portion of our past career has been. We have been torn to pieces by war ; agitated by political dissensions, our interests prostrated by the struggles between two great races, contending as enemies animated by passion and ill will. How much of our money is gone in that way ? How much of our future cramped by these causes ? It must be remembered that a few years ago the idea of New Zealand in the minds of English people was associated with throats cut and tomahawks flourished over our heads. It must be remembered that many of us, in spite of gross ignorance of the special occupations we have taken up in the management of land, have prospered beyond belief, and it is to be expected that when men reared in close intimate friendship with the soil come to cultivate it, the results will be at least equally good. Our prosperity altogether depends upon the development of our resources by small people. If we think that large landed proprietors are the backbone of the country or ever will be, we will be making a fatal mistake. In spite of the wild financial speculation I see around me everywhere—in spite of the fact that I see people wasting thenresources upon investments that they should never touch—establishing unnecessary banks, rushing into insurance shares, dabbling in everything, diverting their capital from its proper channel, their legitimate business—in spite of all that, the recuperative power of the people is so great, the intrinsic value of the land is so great, that they will tide over the difficulty, and overcome the financial pressure which my hon. friend anticipates. It is an appalling fact that £2,500,000 of bank capital should be invested in this Colony, but since it is a large sum of money, I am glad it is so so large. It is a fortunate thing for the people that the sum is so large, as the banks thus involved can with difficulty restrict operations. I admit that the danger of over-trading, overspeculation, is created by the competition amongst banks ; but in spite of all that, the interests of the banks are so closely mixed up with the interests of the Colony that for some years at least the banks dare not put on the screw. And I am full of hope that, if the country is filled with immigrants, and the public works scheme is vigorously pushed on, bofore the expiration of three or four years the banks will scarcely require to resort to pressure. My hon. friend has referred us to the fact that the Land Transfer Act showed that there had been an increase of one hundred and fifty per cent, on the mortgages effected under the provisions of that measure. I will remark in passing that that fact shows at any rate the wonderfully beneficial results of that measure, and it shows that for once at least we have legislated wisely. But it shows more than that. It shows that those people are developing the resoxirces of that land—that they are improving their farms* improving their btock, increasing the commodities which go to make wealth. And is there anybody who is not surprised at the extraordinary increase in the value of high class stock imported into the Colony within the last two years. Is there anybody who does not see the promise of a future for the soil teeming with riches ? It is true that our position financially is a startling one; but it is equally true that the development of our resources and the increase of our material wealth is immense. Take another view of the subject—and it is one peculiar to myself in some measure, peculiar to the country I come from, which centuries of foolish, unwise, and ill-digested legislation have failed to ruin—lreland. It seems impossible to rain a fertile country. I have seen that country devastated with fever, misery, and famine, and internal dissensions, and yet prosperity grew up around us. What we want are peace, quietness, and firmness of purpose. Let us not hesitate, but let us still develop the resources of the country; let us still have faith in the career hold out to us ; and let us above all things not hesitate in a large hearted manner to hold out to others the benefits we ourselves have derived from a residence in this Colony. My hon. friend dwelt with considerable anxiety upon the expenditure of the Defence Department. This is a department which, to a very large extent, will soon be unnecessary. It is a departvnent, the cost of which in a year or so might safely be reduced by one-half, and then again in time by one-half, provided we proceeded judiciously and with calm deliberation. At any rate I hope that before three or four years have gone by the necessity for the maintenance of that costly parade, though it has been a most valuable parade, and at one time filled a gap which nothing less imjortant could fill, will cease. It has secured us the peace which wo enjoy, and the value of which nothing can exceed, yet I take it that as we introduce people into this country the necessity for the maintenance of that department will disappear. I may be taking a too sanguine view, but nevertheless it is tho view which has been gradually maturing in my mind—that if we can introduce people with reasonable rapidity, this incumbrance and burden will cease to exist. My hon. friend Mr. Holmes dwelt with considerable earnestness not only upon our public indebtedness, but upon our private indebtedness—the indebtedness of our private corporations and our businessmen. Sir, I admit all that. I have not been unmindful of it. If this capital wore not to a large extent reproductively employed in this Colony, it would riot bo here; and if it is not continuously employed in a reproductive manner, it will be withdrawn Colony, no matter at how great a loss to tlic lender. My hon, friend says "hear, hear." Well, my answer to that portion of the argument is this. Let the prudent men be careful—and I don't sympathise with those who are not prudent. I am hero to consider the welfare of the country, and I know perfectly well that the withdrawal of foreign capital will not affect the material wealth of small farmers, nor yet of the Colony in general. Now, there is tho other position ; How are they to withdraw it ? They were bound up with our future. I heard it remarked, and tho remark seems to me full of meaning, that we had this advantage at least —that every important family in the United Kingdom had at least some connection in this Colony—that, we had the Anglo-Saxon race with ub in tho whole of our enterprises. Sir, tho English people are one in heart and feeling with uo in this enterprise, and I do not fear the withdrawal of their capital; nor do I fear that when that withdrawal is possiblo, it will result in serious injury to the Colony. I am prepared to admit—and who can deny the proposition—that a European war would, sery seriously involve vis in troubles, that our financial circumstances would be appalling. But, Sir, where are tho creditors, who, in the face of a circumstance of that kind, would turn round and

reproach us with our insolvency ? Sir, with our resources locked up, with the sea covered with hostile cruisers, and our commerce suspended, where are they who would reproach us ? I think it will be admitted that the custom of nations under those circumstances would exempt us, temporarily at least, from external liabilities ; and I am quite sure that if we only got reasonable time we would meet not only our current liabilities but the additional burdens caused by the misfortunes we would have undergone. Sir, we can enter into no enterprise of this kind without a risk. It is impossible to make calculations with such accuracy that nothing will upset them. But it is possible for us to face our position with a brave heart and put a firm front to the dangers which surround us. It is possible by our pei-sonal enterprise and industry to prepare for any possible crisis that may follow ; and if the country at large assumes a position of that kind— and I maintain that the most important section of the country, the smaller people, are taking up that position, as witness the earnestness with which they enter into building societies and every investment of the kind—if the people in the aggregate—of course I exclude the unfortunates who drink every shilling they earn—are economising and accumulating money, what need of fear ? Look at the enormous debt incurred by France during the Franco-Prussian war. What paid that but private accumulations, the result of the economising spirit and self-denial of the people. And if we practise private economy, if we husband our resom'ces, and if we work together and face our position with a bold front, I for one do not fear the result. TCESDAT, • AIICUST 25. The Hon. the SrEAKER took the chair at two o'clock. PETITION. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Phaser the printing of the petition of Henare Matua was ordered. SALARIES OP THE OFFICERS OF THE COUNCIL. The Hon. Major RICHMOND, C. 8., moved, —" That, in accordance with Imperial custom, a Committee be appointed to consider the salaries of the officers of the Council, with a view to submit a report on the subject, and to make such recommendation to the Government as may be deemed necessary. The Committee to consist of the Hon. the Speaker, the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the Hon. Mr. Menzies, the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, and the mover. To report on Wednesday next." He read a memorandum showing the scale of the salaries of officers of corresponding rank in the Parliament of Great Britain and in the Parliaments of the neighboring Colonies, and would also show the discrepancies in the salaries of the officers of the two Chambers of the Parliament of this country. He should be sorry to underrate the merits of the Clerks of the House-of Representatives, but however great their merits might be, he was sure he would be borne out by hon. members in saying that .they could not exceed in zeal and efficiency the clerks who conducted the business of the Legislative Council. The Chief Clerk in the House of Lords received £2500; and the Clerk of the House of Commons, £2OOO. In Victoria, the clerks of both Houses received £IOOO each; in New South Wales, the Clerk of the Legislative Council received £7OO, and the Clerk of the Assembly £800; and in Queensland and South Australia both clerks had £SOO. Our Constitution Act provided that the Clerks of both Houses should be equal in all respects. The clerk assistant of the House of Lords had £2OOO a year, and in the House of Commons £1500; in the Victorian Legislative Council £6OO and Assembly £800; in the New South Wales Legislative Council £SOO, and Assembly £600; in the Queensland and South Australian Houses, £3OO each assistant clerk. The salaries of the clerks in the Parliament of this Colony were these: —In 1864, the Clerk of the Legislative Council received £350, and in 1869 was raised to £4OO, at which his salary rermined. In 1864, the Clerk of the House of Representatives had £SOO, and had been raised to £7OO. The clerk assistant of the Legislative Council had £2OO in 1864, and in 1870 _was raised to £3OO, while the clerk assistant in the House of Representatives, from £250 in 1864 had been raised to £SOO. The second clerk assistant in the House of Representatives, had £225, and had been raised to £4OO, being £IOO more than the clerk assistant of the Legislative Council. It must, he thought, be evident to hon. members that the work.of the Legislative Council was not of so light a character, when compared with that of the House of Representatives, as to justify the difference in the salaries of officers. Motion agreed to. SURRENDER OF CRIMINALS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN obtained leave to introduce a Bill intituled an Act to provide for the Surrender of Fugitive Criminals. TILE REFORMATORY SYSTEM IN GAOLS. The Hon. Mr. FRASER moved,—"That, in the opinion of this Council, it is desirable that it should be informed with reference to certain resolutions passed on 20th September, 1871, as to what steps have been taken towards the introduction into the gaols of the Colony of the reformatory system, as at present in force in all the gaols of Europe and America." He moved in this direction for the purpose of eliciting from the Government an idea of their future intention in reference to gaols in the Colony. As the Hon. the Colonial Secretary was perfectly aware, in this Colony we had in our gaols no classification, no separation, nor anything approaching what could be considered as a deterrent or reformatory. Our gaols were one seething mass of crime. /The prisoners were well fed ; they had warm beds to lie upon ; and their /work was of a very light and pleasing kind, performed in the midst of a sympathising and admiring population. When the long-sentenced prisoners left the gaol they left it stronger and healthier men than when they entered, but much more determined ruffians. He referred to his recent visits to the penal establishments of Millbank and Peutonville. At the former, a prisoner had to turn a crank and daily convert 3|lbs. of jute into oakum ; his food was of the most scanty kind, barely sufficient to keep body and soul together. That was punishment of a deterrent nature ; and prisoners often feigned insanity in order to get away from it. In Pentonville, instead of a crank, prisoners had to work at an upright loom, and to weave a certain quantity of coarse canvas—a less mental torture than the crank. The prisoners at Millbank gave him the idea that they had recovered from a long attack of fever and ague. After a short probationary term at oakum picking, they were drafted to tho Portland quarries, which to the hardened criminal was a great relief, but to the embezzler and forger a great dread, the latter preferring Pentonville or Millbank. He thought the time had come when the General Government might safely assume tho control of tho police, lunatic asylums, and gaols of the Colony. He suggested tho establishment of two central penal establishments—ono for the Middle Island on an island in Lyttelton harbor, the other for the North Island on Somes Island—for long sentenced prisoners, from which they could be drafted down to the various other gaols in different parts of the Colony, and there employed on public works. He hoped to hear from tho Colonial Secretary that it was the intention of the Government to introduce the reformatory or deterrent system of Europe into our misgoverned gaols. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that tho Government werequite conscious that excepting by a central penal establishment the objects that his hon. friend desired to have attained could only be attained. Up to this time tho Government had not seen their way to the establishment of such an institution, but the time was now coming when tho obstacles to it were about to bo removed to a considerable extent. He might venture to assure his hon. friend that if nothing practical was done between this and next session, tho Government would be in a position next session to propose to the Assembly tho necessary means for establishing a central penal establishment. Motion agreed to. THIRD READINGS. Tho Licensing Act Amendment Bill, Tho Land Transfer Act Amendment Bill, The Nelson Waste Land Bill, Tho Goldfiolds Act Amendment Bill No. 3, The Harbor Works Bill, The Otago Waste Lands Administration Bill, Burial Ground Closing Bill, and the City of Dunedin Gasworks Bill wero read a third time and passed.

BILLS. The second reading of the Harbor Works Bill and the Hawke's Bay Waste Lands Regulation Amendment Bill' was agreed to. There was considerable discussion on the committal of the Taranaki Iron Sand Smelting Bill, resultingin all reference to the concession proposed by the Provincial Government to be given to Messrs. Walduck and Company, of Manchester, being struck out. On the committal of the Otago Land Administration Bill, the Hon. Mr. Campbell moved as an amendment to clause 7 that the following words should be added : " No area exceeding 5000 acres shall be set apart in any hundred for the purpose of deferred payments, nor shall more than one block be bo set apart in any hundred." After considerable discussion, the amendment was negatived by 14 against 12. The Auckland Waste Lands Bill and the Wellington Lands Payments Bill (in which the extent of land to be granted was limited to 5000 acres), were considered in Committee, and reported with amendments. On a message from the House of Representatives, giving reasons for disagreeing with the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Otago Reserves Act, the Hon. Mr. AVaterhouse proposed that the Council should not insist on the amendments, which were accordingly withdrawn. The amendments made by the House of Representatives in the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment' Bill were agreed to ; and the amendments made by the Council in the Marlborough Waste Lands Bill fallen from. FIRST BEADING. The Wilson Gray Retiring Allowance Bill was read a first time. SECOND READINGS. The Hooper and Norton Regulation Bill was thrown out on the voices. The Harbor Boards Act Amendment Bill, and the Protection of Animals Act, were read a second time. The Council, at midnight, adjourned till today at the usual hour. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 25. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. PETITIONS. Mi-. W. Kelly brought up a report from the Petitions' Committee, reporting on the petition of several Natives, who complained that in consequence of the war their lands had been so tied up that they could neither lease nor sell, and they desired the removal of these restrictions. The lion, member also presented a petition from a number of other Natives to the same effect. ADVANCES TO PROVINCES. Mr J. L. Gillies gave notice of motion for a return showing the distribution of the million and a-half stated by the Premier to have been given by the Government to Provinces to purchase their support. PAKIRT BLOCK. In answer to Mr. SHEEHAN, Sir DONALD McLBAN said that one-half of the purchase money for this block had been paid, and the other half lodged in the bank, and that arrangements were going on for opening up the block. KAIPARA HARBOR. Mr. SHEEHAN stated that the sailing directions for this fine harbor were unreliable owing to the shifting of the banks, and asked if a new survey would be made. Mr. REYNOLDS read a memorandum from the department. No complaint had been made as to the state of the harbor. It had been reported, however, that it would be necessary to remove the pilot station from the North to the South Head. Captain Johnston had reported that it would be well to remark the entrance, and to erect new beacons. That had not yet been done, for want of funds, by the Provincial Government. He would make inquiries, and see what could be done, but he should not like to make any promise. The harbors of the Colony ought to be looked after, but the Provincial authorities did not seem to have done so in many cases. Mr. WILLIAMSON made a remark, in reply to which— Sir DONALD McLEAN said Captain Fairchild had been instructed to make such a survey, any time he was in Kaipara harbor, as would enable the buoys to be put in their proper places. OTAGO RESERVES BILL. The Council's amendments were disagreed with, and a Committee appointed to draw up reasons. DAVID LEWIS'S PENSION BILL. Sir DONALD McLEAN moved the second reading of this Bill, which was agreed to. The Bill was subsequently committed, reported, and passed. JUSTICES OP PEACE AS CORONERS. Mr. REYNOLDS mentioned that the subject of Justices of the Peace acting as coroners, and talcing fees, had been brought under the notice of the House some time ago. He had taken the opinion of the Attorney-General on the subject, which lie now laid on the table. He moved that it be printed. HONORARIUM TO MEMBERS. Oil, the motion that the House go into Committee of the whole, to consider the report of the Honorarium Committee, Mr. DONALD REID thought there was no reason why they should go into Committee on this subject. A majority of lion, members were content with the honorarium as it was at present. If the sessions were to be short, the amount was amply sufficient. Mr. VOGEL reminded the lion, member that the House, on a previous evening, had ordered that the House should go into Committee. Mr. ROLLESTON thought the subject should be decided in the House. Mr. RICHARDSON said it was desirable to settle the question of the honorarium definitely. The motion was agreed to on the voices, and the House went into Committee. Mr. VOGEL said the two houses had in past sessions acted in a diverse manner in fixing the allowances, and it was desirable some fixed arrangement should be arrived at. The first resolution, that members residing moro than three miles from Wellington should receive fare by coach, railway, or steamer once each way, was agreed to. The second resolution proposed that the honorarium of lion, members of the Upper House should remain as it was, but that the amount for members of the House of Representatives should be raised to 150 guineas; and that deductions should bo made for every day beyond three days of a Bession during which a member may be absent. This clause occasioned some discussion. The Speaker suggested that the rate should be so much per day. Mr. Vogel said advances might be made by the Speaker of either House, and the final adjustment of the account left to the Treasury. Major Atkinson thought the way of calculating the honorarium wasamoßtunfairone. Amember might make an appearance every day and then go away, doing no part of the work, while those members who attended to their business, but might boiabsent for two or three days during the session, would have deductions made. The honorarium should be paid in full at the beginning of tlio session, and the deductions calculated at the close. (No, No.) Mr. Vogel jocularly suggested a system of marks," or of measuring by the number of lines in Hansard. If it were left to the Government, it would at once strike off all opposition. (Laughter.) Ho suggested payments and deductions for sitting days, as recommended by the Committee. Mr. Reader Wood thought the honorarium had nothing whatever to do with the attendance of members. He proposed that a guinea per day should bo deducted for every sitting day a member was absent. Mr. Vogel said the present Bossiou would last about sixty days. The sitting days would be about fifty. An hon. member, therefore, who had not attended at all would, if a guinea a day were deducted, receive fifty guineas for being absent ! The Speaker said that no difficulty would arise if no advances were required by mombers. Mr. Fox thought the matter might be left to the honor of members. If any of them scandalised themselves by neglecting the business of the,country, the constituencies would soon find it out. Let the honorarium be paid to all in full. Mr. Stafford desired to know whether "absence" meant absent from the House or the place of the sitting of Parliament. Mr.

Cuthbertson thought the whole system of deductions was discreditable. Sir J. C. Wils-m thought the honorarium should be struck off altogether.—The days during which a member might be absent without deduction were extended to five, and the clause was agreed to. —The fifth clause was agreed to. Mr. VOGEL remarked that the recommendation of the Committee respecting the honorarium of members of the other House had not been received with much favor there. In this instance he must disagree with the report. He proposed to deal with the whole subject by Bill next session, as it was too late to do so in this session. They did not wish to see the other House mere representatives of wealth. There would come a time when men who had long been in and served the country would be of great assistance by their presence there. But many men of this class might not find it convenient to come to Wellington during the session unless they received an honorarium, which was not payment, but merely an allowance for expenses. These reasons he thought outweighed all that could be advanced on the other side. A sum of one hundred and fifty guineas was not too much to give. He therefore moved that it was expedient that the subject should be dealt with by Bill next session; and that the honorarium of members this session, who resided beyond three miles from the Assembly Buildings, should be one hundred and fifty guineas, and to those who lived within that distance one hundred guineas. Mr. JOHNSTON opposed the motion on the grounds of economy. The exports for the six months ending with June last were .£84,000 less than in the corresponding period of last year; while the extra taxation through the ad valorem duties amounted to £140,000 or £150,000; while fresh, taxation was proposed through the excise duties. This was not a time to add fifty guineas to the honorarium of hon. members. Mr. VOGEL objected to being dragged into a financial discussion. The presumed difference in the value of the exports might be accounted for in many ways—say, by the detention of an outgoing ship from the last day of June to the first day of July. Mr. FOX would vote against this increase, as he did in Committee. It introduced the principle of payment of members, to which he objected. Mr. STAFFORD thought no distinction should be drawn between the honorarium of members of the two Houses. He agreed with the Premier that it was desirable to look to. what the Upper House might be in the future. He did not think the honorarium should be increased. Mr. McGLASHAN supported the increase as regarded members of the Lower House. Mr. ORMOND thought the proposed increase would be badly received in the country. After some remarks from Mr. Beadeu Wood, Mr. J. E. Biiown, Mr. White, Mr. Fitzherbeiit (who supported the principle of payment of members), Mr. Tribe and Mr. Gibbs, Mr. D. REID moved that the honorarium be one hundred guineas. ' On a division, the amount was fixed at one hundred and fifty guineas by 32 to 23. On the last clause, which debars the Speaker, Ministers, and Chairman of Committees from receiving the honorarium, Mr. FOX said he thought these who received money from the public purse—such as the Superintendents and Provincial authorities —should not draw money from that purse a second time. Mr. D. REID thought that matter might well be left to the Provincial authorities, who looked carefully after what they paid away. Mr. VOGEL remarked that as long as they had Provincial institutions it would be necessary to leave matters as regards these officers as they were. A large number of special duties fell upon these officers while they were in attendance on Parliament. The clause was then agreed to, and the resolutions reported to the House, and adopted. OTAGO RESERVES BILL. Mr. J. L. GILLIES brought up the reasons prepared by the Select Committee why the House disagreed with, the Legislative Council's amendments of the Otago Waste Lands Bill. EXCISE DUTIES BILL. Leave was given in Committee of Ways and Means to the Commissioner of Customs to bring in a Bill to alter the excise duty on spirits. The bill was read a first time. Mr. MURRAY thought the Government were not acting in a proper spirit in this matter, and supported his argument at some length. He trusted the House would not agree to the proposal. Mr. J. L. GILLIES agreed -with the last speaker. It was an anomalous proposal to destroy industries that had sprung up amongst them, merely for the sake of revenue. He entered his protest against this course of action. He regretted the policy of change which characterised the present Government. He should vote against the measure now proposed. Mr. TOLMIE thought that to continue distillation would be a most suicidal policy. By the change proposed the Colony would gain more in one year than th-s entire compensation to be paid for the stoppage of distillation. To distil £12,000 worth of barley costs the country at present £30,000. The Colony at present lost 3s. Gd. on every gallon of spirits distilled in the Colony, as well as the differential duty of 6s. per gallon. To continue such a system was most absurd. Mr. REYNOLDS replied to the hon. member (Mr. J. L. Gillies.) If distillation were continued the revenue would this year lose a very large sum. The Bill was then read a second time, and committed, agreed to, and reported. On the House resuming, the Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. MACANDREW entered his protest against the action of the House, and washed his hands of the matter. Mr. O'CONOR thought if the Bill passed it would be necessary to create a new corps of excise officers to prevent illicit distillation. ' Mr. HUNTEB gave his most cordial support to the Government, believing this to be a step towards the destruction of the noxious principle of protection. Sir J. C. WILSON took the same view. After some remarks from Messrs. Fitzherbert, Reynolds, Richardson, Cuthbertson, May, McGillivray, and.Rolleston as to the meaning of a correction made in Committee as to the quantity of spirits Mi". Cawkwell, of Auckland, should be permitted to distil from the material he was in possession of, the Bill was read a third time and passed. DAVID LEWIS COMPENSATION BILL, This Bill was passed through Committee, reported, and read a third time and passed. surrLY. On the motion that the House go into ConV mittee of Supply, Mr. J. L. GILLIES moved the adjournment of the debate, pro forma., to enable him to place on record some figures in reply to those lately laid before the House by the Commissioner of Railways as to the cost of railways in Otago. From the schedule appended to the statement of the Minister, he had stated that he found that £160,000 had been expended on local works by Colonial officers, at an expense of £BOOO. He had since made a more careful calculation, and found that in 1574 the sum expended was £260,609, and the office expenditure was £15,539, or about 6 per cent. He had ako obtained the actual figures of the Engineer's Department of Otago, and found that the total expenditure last year was £145,686, and the cost of the office £3169, or 2 per cent, as compared with 6 per cent, in the Colonial Department. Mr. RICHARDSON called attention to the extraordinary discrepancies between the hon. member's present figures and those which he gave a few days ago, and which were on record. Mr. CUTHBERTSON reminded the House that the hon. member a few days ago, gave the expenditure at £106,000, which he now gives at £160,000. He on the same occasion, had led the House to believe that the Provincial Department of Otago had supervised the expenditure of £500,000, at a coßt of £4OOO. He must place this statement on record side by side with that of the hon. member (Mr. J. L. Gillies). MESSAGE FROM HIS EXCELLENCY. A message from Hiss Excellency having been read,

Mr. MURPiAY thought the session should not be allowed to close without an expression from that House of its opinion as to how the Government had carried on the public works and immigration of the Colony. He thought hon. members could not go home with any feelings of satisfaction. He never had seen such a spiritless session. He reviewed the financial and commercial position at some length, and unfavorably, and passed on to condemn the working of the immigration system. Mr. THOMSON followed the hon. member for Bruce, and expressed great wonder that the Government had said nothing about the financial state of the country, seeing that it was so long ago—five or six weeks he thought —-since that statement was made. He complained of. the late increase in the staff of the Agent-General, and criticised the management of the department generally by that officer, and the relations of that gentleman and the Government. The House then went into Committee, taking up the Immigration Estimates. Mr. MURRAY thought the time was come when they should have an expression of opinion as to whether a system of free immigration should be continued. He anticipated Ri-eat harm from a reduction of the rate oflabor. Mr. VOGEL reminded the hon. member that he had already fully explained the views of the Goverment on the subject. Great care was now being taken in the selection' of emigrants at Home for New Zealand, and large numbers had lately been rejected by the Provincial Agents who had been selected by agents who were paid so much per head. He would certainly give a preference to nominated emigrants, and to the emigration of persons possessed of some means to enable them to settle on the lauds. Sir J. C. WILSON remarked that there was not, so far as his experience went, in Canterbury the slightest prospect of the demand for labor being easily satisfied. Mr. MONTGOMERY thought that local agents —agents who had their heart in the work—were wanted to procure the most suitable class of immigrants. The whole of the votes were passed without further comment. Supplementary estimates for 1874-5, amounting to £128,818 on the Consolidated Fund, and £7030 on the Immigration and Public Works-Fund, were passed. Votes for £96,815 for 1874-5, and £82,365 for 1873-4 were taken for Public Buildings under the General Purposes Loan Act, 1574 ; and also of £47,313 for unauthorised expenditure ; £12,070 for special funds; and £255 for services in connection with the Land Fund. Progress was reported, and leave afterwards given to sit again next day. MINOR BILLS. The following Bills were read a second time : —Poverty Bay Land Titles, Taimare and Waimahana Grant, Ahikouka Native Claims Rehearing (opposed by Mr. Brandon), Outlying Districts Sale of Spirits Act Amendment Bill. The first, second, and fourth of these measures were passed through Committee, reported, and passed, and the.; third ordered to be committed next day. TheWanganui Foreshore Bill was read a third time.;; LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BLLL. Mr. VOGEL said he would not peril the Bill by declining to accept the amendment by the Legislative Council, on the 13th clause, " provided that new licenses shall be granted only at the quarterly licensing meetings to be held in the month of June of each year." He proposed, however, to amend: the amendment to the effect that the provision of the clause should refer only to houses not previously licensed. New licenses should not be an easy matter to obtain. He hoped the House would accept the amendment. Mr. ANDREW hoped the House would not do so, as many cases of cruel hardship would Mr. MERVYN suggested that both views should be embraced in the clause. Mr. GIBBS said the clause, as it now stood, would lead to a large amount of sly grogselling. Mr. VOGEL said he would alter the clause, to allow of applications to be made in September and December of the present year, for licenses that had not been applied for in time ; and thereafter, only at the June meeting. The amendment of the hours, ten to ten, in place of eleven to eleven, was left by the Government to the original mover (Mr. Steward), who disagreed with the amendment. On a division, the amendment of the Council was disagreed with. , Mr. VOGEL said the clause was perfectly inoperative, and should be struck out altogether. A Committee was appointed to draw up reasons for the disagreement. A new clause, imposing a penalty on any dealer having sold, or kept for sale, liquor adulterated with any substance injurious to health, or calculated to increase the intoxicating powers of liquor, by the cancelling of his license for ever, was opposed by Mr. VOGEL, who moved that it be disagreed with, which was agreed to. NATIVE LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was committed. Mr. SHEEHAN expressed his opinion at some , length that the Native Lands , Court would never work, and that it would be better to fall back upon the old system. He would not, however, oppose the Bill, though the amendments proposed were not as comprehensive as they should have been. Another Amending Act would be necessary next session. Mr. TAKAMOANA regretted that the Native Lands Court Act was passed. The Maoris had "come to grief" through the Native Lands Act. The Maories were now anxious to do away with the Native Court altogether, and trust in the ordinary courts. Mr. ROLLESTON said if he did not vote against the Bill it was not because he approved of it. The whole legislation on the sidjject of Native lands was in a most unsatisfactory state. Mr. PARATA did not understand the objection to the Native Lands Court, because it had only been in existence nine months, and the judges had not yet had sufficient experience of its working. If the House did not approve of the Native Lands Court let them go back to the Act of 1862. Those who objected to the Act were persons who were living on Maori land obtained improperly. The petitions sent to the House were not against the Act, but only prayed for its amendment in certain particulars. Judge Rogan was the. first Judge to begin under it, and the Maoris had seen nothing wrong in what he had done. Let those who took exception, to the Act devise some better method of dealing with the Native lands. Sir DONALD McLEAN said very little had been done under the Bill, and as far as he was aware the greater number of the Maoris were in favor of the Act. The judges would be required now, by the Act before the House, to satisfy themselves that there were no difficulties, in the way of title before lands passed through the Court. Legislation in Maori affairs must change as the times'changed. The Bill was then further considered in Committee, reported to the House, and passed. Several other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House adjourned at 2.10 a.nl., till the usual hour this afternoon.