PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4190, 25 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, August 24. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at two o'clock. DRAY ROAD FKOM WAIPA TO RAGLAN. The Hon. Mr. GHAMBERLIN asked,— "If it is the intention of .the Government to have a dray road made from the Waipa to Kaglan during the' ensuing summer, or if there is still any political difficulty with the Natives to prevent its being done ; and if so, what tribe it is which stands in the way." The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that he could not give any definite information. All he could say wa3 that it had been the desire of the Government to open up communication between the Waikato and the district referred to, and they would do so as soon as possible. THE WAKD-CHAI'.MAN INQUIRY. The Hon. Mr. G. K. JOHNSON-moved—- " That an humble address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, together with the reports of the Committee upon the WardChapman Inquiry and the evidence taken by it, requesting that a full investigation of all matters connected with the inquiry should be made by a Koyal Commission ; and that, if necessary, His Excellenoy would be pleased to introduce a Bill this session, giving power to the Commission to enforce the production of evidence and to grant indemnity where evidence given by the witnesses might tend to criminate themselves. That should His Excellency be indisposed to accede to the prayer of this address, he be requested to place the reports and the evidence in the custody of the Speakers of the Legislature." The Hon. Mr. HOLMES urged that the matter should not be proceeded with further. Already a considerable sum had been spent in connection with the inquiry, but the result had not been what those who had taken any interest in the matter had desired. Nothing new or of any importance could be elicited by the appointment of a Koyal Commission. What had been spent already must amount to £ISOO or £2OOO, and this Commission would involve the country in a further expense of from £IOOO to £2OOO, money that could be more beneficially spent by the Government. The facts brought to light were now before the Government, who would be in a position to go forward and make private inquiries, so that the parties who were the means of disclosing the telegrams might be found out. That might be done without the intervention of a Commissiou. He therefore thought that the matter, so far as the Council was concerned, should be allowed to drop. The Ho«. Mr. BUCKLEY thought a great mistake had been made in the first instance in taking up the matter at all. There wa3 no doubt that had it occurred during the recess it would have been taken in hand by the Government; and if they had failed to do their duty it would have been quite time enough for the Assembly to have taken it in hand. It was the duty of the Government to make such an inquiry, and it should be left to them to carry it on. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON did not think it desirable to proceed further with the matter. The object of the inquiry was to direct attention to mal-administration of the telegraph office ; and he thought it was quite competent for the Government to proceed with that if considered necessary for their own vindication in the matter. He did not go so far as to oppose the resolution. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL observed that the adoption of the resolution involved the adoption of the Committee's report, and it was very unadvisable to go to that extent unless the reports of the Committee had been printed and circulated among members. For his own part, he had no knowledge beyond what appeared_in the original report; and he had been called "upon honestly to look over the other report in which he saw a great many points, and he would be stultifying himself if he gave in his adhesion to them without being aware of the evidence on which they were based. He saw it stated in the newspapers that' some of the evidence was somewhat of an' obscure character, but how it came out that there were points of the evidence which bore that character was more than he could understand, nor did he care to have the mystery elucidated. The report contained a reference, which he now saw for the first time, to two gentlemen, Messrs. Holdsworth and Clayton, as being guilty of something or other which he did not know, and recommended them to mercy on the score of better behaviour for the future. The Council were asked to express a strong opinion upon people whose name 3 were not involved in the order of reference, without knowing or ■ being in possession of the evidence on which the reports were based. He would suggest to the members of the Ward-Chapinan Committee, if they thought it necessary that further action should be taken—and he was quite prepared to believe it was necessary—that they might see the propriety of putting the reports in the hands of members, in order that they might not be called upon to endorse reports with which they were imperfectly acquainted. He had himself such confidence in the personnel of the Select Committee appointed by that Chamber that he was prepared to accept without hesitation the inferences of the Com mittee, without seeing the evidence, but he should like to have the opportunity of carefully reading the report before being called on to adopt it. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN would not oppose . the resolution if the Council shoidd desire to pass it. He wished to observe that an amount of discretion was given to the Government, and it might be implied that the resolution also adopted the reports, which he presumed it was not intended to do, because it wpuld be necessary for the Government to make such further inquiries as might seem desirable with respect to the telegraphic office at Oamaru. The Government did not feel disposed to shirk the responsibility that properly belonged to them in that particular case. The Hon. Colonel KENNY opposed the motion. As a member of the Committee he could not understand how the Council, without knowing any of the circumstances set out in the evidence, which he should be sorry to see published, or the proceedings of the Committee, would be able to arrive at a conclusion that it was desirable to follow up the investigation by means of a Royal Commission. He mi"ht venture to go further and to say that personally he was very much dissatisfied with ' the evidence taken by the Committee. On the last occasion that he attended the Committee he was constrained to move a resolution, which virtually had the effect of arresting any further action on the part of the Committee. It was to the effect that the Committee had gone fully to the extent of the orders of references in the respective Chambers. He did not think he would be stating anything objectionable if he said the Coin--mittee went beyond the limit of the reference. He went on to say that the reports made by the Committee, together with the evidence, should be remitted to His Excellency, with a view to further investigation being made by a Royal Commission, but he was very reluctant that further investigation should take place by * the Committee. He thought it would be extremely inexpedient that the evidence should be placed before the public, and it should rest with the Governor to decide whether any further step should be taken. Any person with a full knowlodge of the circumstances would decide that the interim report of the Committee was quite sufficient to decide that part of the case which required the decision of the Committee. As to the point—and he admitted it was a very important point—of further investigatioa as to _ how certain telegrams came into certain, persons' possession, and were published, he did not think any member of the Council without having seen the evidence would have been able to imagine that an inquiry into such a question could have given rise to such charges, counter charges, and statements of all kinds as had grown out of it. Any further action in that direction might be well taken by departmental means. The Hon, Mr. ACKLAND was understood to say that nothing had been said to lead to the belief that the evidence was unfit for publication ; but he agreed that it was undesirable to publish it. The statement of Mr. Holmes about the expense of the Committee was over.

stated. He had no means of ascertaining what the expense of printing, &c, would be, but the travelling expenses of witnesses would be between £4OO and £SOO. It was perfectly true, as the Hon. Col. Kenny had said, that the Committee had gone beyond the order of reference, but the fact was that it was forced to do so by the evidence given by>ome people. He mentioned that the telegraph matter at last came to a distinct question of oath against oath, and it was perfectly impossible then that the Committee should proceed further with it. It was thought necessary for tVe security of the department that the inquiry should be pushed further, and be heartily agreed with the recommendation of the Committee.

After some remarks by the Hon. J. JOHNSTON, the question was put with the following result:—Ayes, 14: Messrs. Acland, Bonar, Brett, Campbell, Eraser, G. It. Johnson, Lahmann, Menzies, Miller, Petere, Pollen, Stokes, Eenwick, AVatcrhouse. Noes, 17: Messrs. Buckley, Chamberlin, Edwards, Gray, Hart, Holmes, J. Johnston, Kenny, Mantell, Nurse, Paterson, Pharazyn, Richmond, Robinson, Scotland, Taylor, Williamson.. The Hon. Mr. ERASER wanted to know what would be the position of the Council if a resolution was carried in another place similar to that just negatived. The Hon. the SPEAKER slid it was a question that he could scarcely be called upon to answer. Tin simple question was this, the Committee- had no power to retain possession of the evidence —it must go somewhere.

The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON asked for leave to move, without notice, —" That the evidence should be placed in the custody of the Speakers." The Hon. Dr. POLLEN suggested that no fuller action should be taken until it was seen what course the other branch of the Legislature took upon the subject. The matter then dropped. BILLS.

On the second reading of the Goldfields Act Amendment Bill, the Hon. Mr. Euasek moved its second reading that day six months, which was negatived by 18 to 7. The Otago Waste Lands Administration Bill was read a second time. The amendments by the Governor on the Inspection of Machinery Bill were agreed to, afterstrikingout,on Mr. Waterkouse's motion, the words "increase or" in the fifth line of clause 31. On the second reading of the Nelson Waterworks Loan Bill, a motion to report progress was earned by 15 to S. The Volunteer Land Act, 1565, Amendment Act, 1573, Amendment Bill was was thrown out on the voices. On the third reading of the Licensing Bill, the Hon. Mr. Bonaii moved that clause 13 be struck out, when there voted ■ —ayes 14, noes 11; and on clause 42, to extend the hours of barmaids from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. to 11 a.m. to 11 p.m., there voted in favor of the extension 12, against it 13. The Employment of Eemales Bill, the Clutha Kiver Trust Bill, the Otago Reserves, and the New Plymouth Exchanges Validation Bill were read a third time and passed. The Clutha River Trust Reserves, the Hawke's Bay Waste Lands Regulation Amendment Bill, the City of Dunedin Gasworks Bill, and the Invercargill Gas Works Bill, were read a second time. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, August 24. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. Mr. REYNOLDS laid on the table the report of Captain Johnston on the recent survey of the sites for lighthouses. It contained information so ample that it did not appear to him to be necessary to say much on the subject, but he had promised Mr. O'Neill as early information as possible, and therefore he would say a few words as to its contents. Owing to the stormy weather that had been experienced, the survey of the Middle Island had not been as carefully made as was desirable, but this would be remedied in the course of the recess. The machinery for the lighthouses for Cape Foulwind and Tory Channel had been ordered in December last, and he was in daily expectation of hearing that it had been completed. A question, however, had arisen as to whether it wouH be desirable to place a light in Tory Channel. The officers of the_ department had reported against it, and opinions had been obtained from a large number of shipmasters acquainted with the navigation of Cook Strait, which were unfavorable to the placing of a light there. In addition to the lighthouses ordered last session to be erected, it was proposed to erect the following :—North Cape Island, on the extreme north of this island; Cuvier Island, in the southern entrance to Hauraki Gulf; East Cape Island, the most eastern point of New Zealand; The Brothers, in Cook Strait (in which case it is believed that it will be possible to dispense with Tory Channel and Mana Island lights ; Banks' Peninsula, somewhere between Lyttelton and Akaroa; Moeraki, off which place a dangerous reef exists ; Kuapuke Island, in Foveaux Strait (in which case Dog Island light could be dispensed with); Ragged Island, in Foveaux Strait; Cape Egmont, in Taranaki Province; and Cape Farewell, on the West Coast of the Middle Island. The hon. member remarked that when these were erected the wants of the shipping trade of the coast would be supplied for some years to come. The expenditure would be spread over two or three years, and as the greater part of the vote of last year was still available lie proposed oDly to ask for £3500 as the cost of the Burvey. The revenue from the lights last year had exceeded £BOOO, and as the expenses were about £4OOO there was a surplus of about £4OOO. The requirements of the rapidlyincreasing tradeof thecoast, however, required that the works now proposed should be proceeded with as rapidly as possible. He complimented the officers of his department for the admirable manner in which the business had been conducted —and for which he himself claimed no credit. A better staff of officers could not be found anywhere. Referring to the system of storm-signals which he had initiated, he said that before next session Captain Edwin would have been able so far to complete the system as to be able, to forecast the weather some hours before a change took place, which would be of'great assistance to the masters of vessels in such harbors as those of Timaru and Oamaru ; and he desired to thank the authorities of the various Provinces for the hearty co-operation he had received from them in forwarding intelligence of changes in the state of the barometer. (Hear, hear). THE SAN FRANCISCO MAIL SERVICE. , Sir J. C. WILSON desired to ask, without notice, whether it was true that a bailiff had been placed on board the mail steamship Tartar when in San Francisco, and that it was with' considerable difficulty and after some i days' delay, that the vessel had been enabled to proceed on her voyage. He was anxious to know whether any difficulty of the same kind would interfere with the voyage of the next inward ship ? Mr. VOGEL stated that the Tartar was the property of independent owners. The chartermoney had not been paid, and in consequence the ship had been detained at San Francisco for some days while the Agent-General for New South Wales and the agents of the con- ■ tractors in London were endeavoring to arrange | matters. As to what might occur with reference to the next incoming ship, he was at present unable to aay ; but he would say that if the mails were placed on board, the agents of New South Wales and New Zealand would take care to see that the vessel left Sau Francisco with them. The contractors, he had already informed the House, had found themselves unable to carry out their engagements, but the Government of New South Wales were anxious to carry on the service while arrangements were being made—and which he thought it was possible would be made—with the builders of the new steamers for the permanent line to take up the contract. The Government of New Zealand, however, had discouraged the idea of entering again into a temporary service, and had forwarded instructions to the Agent-General to have the mails for this Colony forwarded for the present byway of Suez. RESIGNATION OP HIB EXCELLENCY. Mr. STAFFORD asked whether the Government would put the House in possesion of any information it might have as to the resignation of His Excellency, of which they had learned by telegram that morning?

Mr. VOGEL said he had learned that the Governor had forwarded his resignation to the Secretary of State for the Colonies some time ago, and they had heard by telegram from England that the resignation had been accepted, and, no doubt, that news was correct. He was at liberty to say that His Excellency had not resigned in consequence of any dislike to the office of Governor of New Zealand, or of any dissatisfaction with the Colony, or the manner in which he had been received in New Zealand, but solely from his desire for a more active political life at Home than was possible to a Constitutional Governor in a Colony. WARD-CHAPMAN INQUIRY'. Mr. VOGEL observed that he assented the other night to a resolution for the suppression of the evidence taken in the Ward-Chapman inquiry, but there was a portion of it relating to irregularities on the part of two officers at Oamaru with which it was desirable the department should deal. He desired to know whether it was necessary he should submit a resolution on the subject, or whether he was to understand that that portion of the evidence was open to the Government. While a discussion was going on on the subject a message -was received from the Upper House to the effect that the Council had declined to assent to a resolution for an address to His Excellency, recommending the appointtment of a Royal Commission. The matter, therefore, dropped, the Government to have access to the evidence. NEW BILLS. Mr. Sheehan obtained leave and brought in the Auckland Improvement (Albert Barracks Reserves) Act 1872 Amendment Bill, which was read a first time. Sir Donald McLean brought in the Poverty Bay Land Titles Bill, which was read a first time. CROMWELL WATER WORKS. Mr. T. L. Shepherd obtained leave and brought in a Bill to enable the Corporation of Cromwell to raise a sum of £3OOO for waterworks, which was read a first time. CASE OV DAVID LEWIS. A message having been brought down from His Excellency, recommending an appropriation, Mr. Vogel obtained leave and brought in a Bill (which was read a first time) to enable compensation to be made to Mr. David Lewis, whose case had been repeatedly before the House, and compensation assented to. COMPENSATION. Mr. WILLIAMS moved,—"That the House do forthwith resolve itself into a Committee of the whole, to consider of presenting an address to His Excellency the Governor, praying him to cause to be placed on the estimates a sum of money to defray the expenses to which Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams, and Messiv. Horn and Jervis, have been subjected in the performance of their duties as Justices of the Peace." The hon. member stated the circumstances at full length. Mr. REYNOLDS opposed the motion, which would establish a dangerous precedent. Mr. LUCKIE remarked that a precedent had been established in 1861, in a case that had occurred at Motueka. Mr. VOGEL thought a stop should be put to persistent efforts to obtain compensation in cases which had already been before the Petitions Committee of the House. Mr. ROLLESTONsaid the House should be regarded as a final Court of Appeal, and cases such as this should receive every consideration from the House. Mr. READER WOOD stated that the cases, which had never been before the House, deserved every attention, if magistrates were to be encouraged in the discharge of their duty. In one of the cases referred to, the magistrates had suffered from the mistake of a clerk, who had presented a wrong form to the magistrates for their signature, and the magistrates had, therefore, unwittingly committed a prisoner, as the Commissioner of Customs remarked, for a crime unknown to the law. Mr. FOX also thought the cases deserved the sympathy of the House. Compensation, he was of opinion, should be given, for somewhat serious consequences had followed to one or more of them. The Government had been satisfied that the magistrates referred to had acted in a perfectly upright manner, and had returned them to the Bench. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD said the cases only illustrated the character of the system of unpaid magistrates, to which he was opposed. After some observations from Mr. T. Kelly, Mr. Buckland, and Mr. Creighton, Sir DONALD McLEAN Baid that hon. members were mixing up two cases that had no connection with each other. Mr. SHEEHAN hoped the Government would deal with the cases as it had done with a paid officer in somewhat similar circumstances. In that case the Government had paid the expeases of the defence, as well as the costs of that gentleman in going through the bankruptcy Court. Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams were made the victims of the perjury of a man who had soon afterwards left the Colony. Utterly incompetent persons were called to the Bench to administer the law, and cases of this kind would constantly occur. The, unpaid Magistrates should be dispensed with. The Queen's commission was constantly abused for political reasons. The Government might allow the resolution to pass, and satisfy itself before the money was paid away. Mr. SWANSON sympathised rather with the other side. If Magistrates who made mistakes were to be compensated, what was to be done for the victims of their mistakes ? The circumstances should be inquired into by a Select Committee. Mr. CARRINGTON regretted that the two cases should have been mixed up in the resolution, as they were as different as noonday and night. Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams had been mulcted of £290 by false swearing. Mr. J. SHEPHARD thought the Magistrates alluded to should be compensated, and the circumstances inquired into through which they had been led into error by the Clerk of the Court. A Resident Magistrate would, most probably, have fallen into the same mistake. He appreciated the action of the Premier, but thought that in these instances he should give way. Sir DONALD McLEAN thought the House was still in error in connection with these cases. Two of the complainants were reinstated in office, and all back pay was paid to them. The Government did not see its way to re-open the case. However much he felt for Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams—and it was a hard case— still he could not see his way to support the motion. Mr. FITZHERBERT thought Sir Donald McLean had admitted the whole case, when, he said it was a hard one. After hearing the Native Minister, he must, as a disinterested person, vote for the motion. Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams had been forced through the Bankruptcy Court from inability to pay the.costs to which they had been exposed, and he thought, therefore, they should bo liberally dealt with. Mr. BRANDON supported the motion, not admitting that the report of any Committee should be considered final. Mr. BRYCE thought it was a most inconvenient course to try cases of this kind over and over again without the production of new evidence. The Government Bhould bo firm. The gentlemen referred to had gone beyond the duties of Justices of the Peace. Mr. WILLIAMS having replied, The resolution was agreed to by 40 to 21, and the House at once went into Committee. A resolution of a somewhat indefinite character was proposed. Mr. VOGEL pointed out that a vague resolution of the kind before the Committee was no instruction to the Government. No sum was specified, and an indefinite amount could not be placed on the supplementary estimates. If the House named a sum, and directed the Government to expend it, they would do so, although it must be understood that it was tho. act of the House and not of the Government. Mr. WILLIAMS said if asked to namo a sum, he would say £431 19s. for Messrs. Von Sturmer and Williams, and £220 9s. 4d. for Messrs. Jervis and Horn. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD asked if the creditors of tho bankrupts and tho law costs had been paid. Or was this to go to the trustees of the bankrupt estate. Mr. VOGEL (after conferring with Mr. Williams) said it was as lie had thought, The

damages and costs had not been paid. This would bring a host of such claims upon the Government. The plaintiff in the action would have a better claim for the damages awarded to him and his costs. To pass the resolution in its present shape would be to cover the House with ridicule. He moved as an amendment, that the matter bo referred' for inquiry, and a report to be brought up next session. Sir J. C. WILSON : In the first week of the session. Mr. VOGEL : Yes.. Mr. BUCKLAND explained that the mistake which had led Messrs. Von Stnrmer and Williams into the error from which they had suffered, was not committed by the Clerk of the Court of Petty Sessions, but by the Crown Prosecutor. The amendment was then agreed to. NEW ZEALAND WOODS. Mr. O'NEILL moved, —"That tho report of trials made at the Royal Mint, Sydney, of some of the woods of New Zealand, by B. W. Ward, Captain, Royal Engineers, and dated 20th December, 1850, be printed." The motion was agreed to. NAVAL THAWING SCHOOLS' ACT. The amendments of the Council in this Bill were agreed to. COLONIAL INDUSTRIES. Mr. MURRAY moved that the House do forthwith resolve itself into a Committee of the whole, to consider tho report of the Colonial Industries Committee. He remarked that the Committee, expecting the session to be a short one, had dealt chiefly with the subjects of iron and coal. He estimated that rails could be manufactured in New Zealand at a price £5 per ton less than in England, and as sixty thousand tons of rails were required for the Colony, the saving would be immense if they could be manufactured here, while it was also highly important that the coalfields should be developed. The motion was agreed to, and the House went into Committee. Progress was reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow. WILSON GRAY PENSION BILL. Sir D. M'LEAN moved the second reading of this Bill. The motion was agreed to, committed,-re-ported, read a third time, and passed. HONOHAIIJM FOR MEMBERS. Mr. VOGEL, on the question of going into Committee of Supply, stated the course he proposed to take with regard to the honorarium of hon. members. The Committee on the subject only proposed to deal with the matter as it affected members of that House, and some feeling on the subject had, he understood, been shown by hon. members in another place.' He did not, in consequence, intend to bring in a Bill this session on the payment of of members, but as the Committee had recommended an increase of the honorarium, to make extra payments to hon. members whose place of abode was more than three miles from the City of Wellington he intended to place a sum on the estimates. He also proposed to deal with the subject as regards members of both Houses by Bill in next session. He thought tins would be sufficient to meet the difficulty that had arisen. Mr. ROLLESTON was surprised at the statement of the Premier, and to enable him to say what he had to say on the subject moved the adj ournment of the debate. It was a question which affected both Houses, but the proposal of the Government could only be regarded as unfair and partial. If a vote for extra allowances was made by the House, and appeared in the Appropriation Act, the other House could not deal with it. The subject should, be dealt with as a matter of principle. The people curiously scrutinised these votes, and others, but this was dealing with it without any principle of action. The Lower House would not raise itself in the estimation of the people if it dealt with it in the manner proposed. It was said the Government would proceed next session by Bill, but why not determine the principle on which these payments were to be made in this session ? Any question the Parliament was competent to deal with should be dealt with at once, and not postponed till another time, when it would come up as a prejudged case. He disagreed with the proposal on general grounds. The House had taken action in this and other matters, of which the people were ignorant. Ministers took votes for themselves of which the country were ignorant, and without that close scrutiny which was necessary. Was the country aware that Ministers could at present spend £IOO,OOO a-year in excess of the votes? They could build Ministerial residences on a vote of the Assembly, at a cost nearly three times in excess of the votes. The House did not understand that those things were done.- This vote for an extra allowance to members he would oppose to the utmost, and he hoped debate upon it would not be burked. It, like others, was devoid of principle, and not properly discovered to the House. Mr. VOGEL had no objection to a debate on this question. He had stated the course the Government agreed to take. He was not prepared to support payment of members of the one House only. It was not for him to disclose what had taken place in the Select Committee, but he wished— The SPEAKER : There is nothing to prevent the Premier stating what had taken place in Committee. Mr. VOGEL : The Committee was about equally divided, and the resolution they had adopted had been carried by a majority of only one. Their recommendations, therefore, had not the same weight, as if the Committee had been unanimous. Finding that there was a feeling that there should be an addition to the honorarium, it was proposed to place a sum on the Estimates. It was only fair in its nature, and involved no new principle ; but Government thought that no distinction should be made between the members of the two Houses, and that it would be best to proceed by vote this session, and bring in a Bill to regulate the matter next session. If it was desired to bring up the report of the Select Committee, the Government had no desire to burke inquiry or deal with it in any other than in an open manner. He might add that he would endeavor to get through with the Bills and Appropriations to-morrow, and to bring up the Appropriation Act on the following day. He had no doubt they would bo able to find time in the interval to discuss the matter. Sir J. C. WILSON said what he wanted was an opportunity to divide the House. As Ministers got no honorarium, he thought they should stand aside, and let the other members vote aye or no. Not a word any honorable member could say would change the opinion of any other member. Let them settle it at once, therefore, in a fair fight. Mr. J. L. GILLIES expressed his regret at tho course of the Government, which was not in accordance with the wishes of the Committee. If tho report had been produced, it was his intention to have moved that the honorarium should be a hundred guineas. If Provincial Governments were abolished he was inclined to propose £SOO per annum—(laughter) secured by Act. Till the close of the present Parliament, however, the honorarium should remain as it was. Mr. READER WOOD would not support any attempt to increase the present honorarium. It was ample to pay expenses, and anything more would bo in the nature of a payment, to which he decidedly objected. It was to be regretted that the report of the Select Committee which was agreed to by a majority*of only one should have been adopted by the Government. I The SPEAKER suggested that the best ■ course would be to move that he should leave the chair, but Mr. ROLLESTON withdrew his motion for adjournment. The SPEAKER asked whether the House wished to go into Committee, to postpone the order of tho day for the consideration .of tho report of the Select Committee. Mr. VOGEL : Postpone the order of the day till next day. ("Aye, aye," and "No, no.") Mr. ROLLESTON objected to this postponement, which—at this period of the Bcssion —would burke the matter altogether. Ho wished the report discussed, and a division taken upon it, now. Mr. EOX : There will bo plenty of time for the House to declare its opinions in unmistakable terms, when the report has been circulated.

Mr. ROLLESTON : It has been before us all day. Mr. POX : The general conduct of the debate was entirely another subject. He hoped the discussion of so important a subject would not be indefinitely postponed. The order of the day was then postponed till next daj l . COMMITTEE OF SUPrLT PROVINCIALISM. On the order of the day, that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr. FITZHERBEET desired to explain, in the simplest possible manner, the reasons that induced him to plac > on the paper the amendment of which he had given notice. It might have been expected that he should have taken a part in a late debate. He was expected to do so, was prepared to do so, and was sorry that he was disappointed in not having the opportunity to do so. It might be expected he was about to deliver the speech he would then have made, but it was not so. He was able to .rebut many of the statements made in supporting that resolution, and he was told that many of the propositions adduced in support of those resolutions had been successfully rebutted. He was not about to do so. There would be many opportunities in the future to do so. He went on, therefore, to a question raised by the resolution passed by the House. Taking it for granted that the decision of the House must be acquiesced in for the time, he now called upon the House to pause before they took another step in the course directed by the Government. The House had responded to the invitation to declare that Provincial institutions should be remodelled. It was not a question of remodelling them, and he did not say they were incapable of being improved. The question was a different one. The House had declared that local self-government should be abolished in the Northern Island—(No, no) and that in lieu thereof local- affairs should be administered from Wellington as a centre, with local agents under the Ministry of the day—that was what the House had assented to. It was a fundamental change ; and without inquiry into the wisdom of the change, it was proposed to deprive the public of the popular rights they enjoy under the Constitution they derived from the Imperial Parliament. It was such a change as should not be proposed until the subject had been remitted to the country. He bowed to the decision of the House, but asked it to pause till the decision of the country had been made. The proposition was so clear that it was not necessary for him to argue upon it. It was not a matter on which members should go back individually to appeal to their constituencies, but in a much more dignified manner. No such important change had ever before been proposed without an appeal to the country. He thought the subject should be approached in a true spirit of deliberative wisdom, for history told them it was easy to part with popular political rights and most difficult to regain them. No man in that House would lend "his aid willingly to assist such a contingency. On the brink of so great a change he desired to bring the House calmly to the subject, discarding every motive of ah obstructive character. After measures had been introduced, and fully discussed next session, he hoped the House would not then go further, even if they were constitutionally entitled, in the plentitude of their power, to alter so materially the Constitution of the country without an appeal to that power which made and unmade Houses. He said to those now in power that even if they passed such a Bill next session it would not be worth the paper on which it was written without the consent of the people. No object- could be gained by passing such a resolution, and then following it by a Bill, unless the country was consulted. Having gone so far in the first stage, it was no more than judicious before going far with the second step, to relegate to the country the question of the future system of Government. It was with that object alone he had placed before the House the resolution now before it. To proceed further, without asking the opinion of the country by a general reference to it, would be committing a political blunder. He proposed, however, to amend the second of his resolutions, to carry out his intention, which was that the dissolution His Excellency was asked for should be given "after the Bill or Bills prepared to carry out the resolutions had been circulated, and before it was passed into law." (Laughter, and ironical applause.) He felt that if the House did not wish to usurp powers that belong to the people, it would adopt the resolutions he now proposed. He denied that he had brought them forward in a spirit of opposition. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) It was in no spirit of opposition to the Government he was now acting. Mr. VOGEL said he had every confidence m the correctness of the vote of the House on the resolutions he had proposed ; but if anything were wanting to sustain him in that confidence it was to be derived from the feebleness of the arguments used by those who were opposed to the change proposed. When he thought of the high anticipations that had been entertained of the opposition which the Government was about to receive—of how the country was to be made to speak out—and then thought of the feeble generalities they had just heard from the hon. member for the Hutt, it would havo been much better for that hon. member to have thrown up the struggle, and admit that the House had done rightly. He had expected to have heard sometliingjn the nature of an argument against the change, that he would have sent them home with some new idea on the subject. It was not too much to expect from one who had had so large a share in the Government of the country, that he would have put forward some view of the case which would have at least suggested some doubt as to the wisdom of the course proposed, but he had not done so. He said, in fact, that he was not prepared to discuss it. It was argued that Parliament was not competent to decide upon the proposals submitted to it. But surely it would be degrading Parliament to say that it should have a Bill laid before it, and then to say that it was not competent to deal with it. He congratulated tho honorable gentleman on the moderation he had shown ; not merely now, but in the debate of the other night. It was good taste on his part, and on the part of others, that they should have found some one else to take the ostensible lead. The hon. member no doubt thought that an adverse motion would come bettor from one who, was not directly knocked down by the propositions of the Government ; but the move was not successful. The speech of the hon. member for Selwyn was crude, long, and not of very marked character. Mr. ROLLESTON asked if the Premier was in order in referring to a previous debate. The SPEAKER : There is no point of order. Mr. VOGEL : The hon. member for Selwyn had no doubt thought it necessary to make a very long speech, under a strong sense of feeling that he was in an entirely false position, for he had to disclaim the real and actual meaning of the position he had taken up. He was unmistakeably looked upon, when he submitted hi s amendment.os the leader of those whom he asked to vote with him, but he told them he was not the head of the Opposition. He (Mr. Reeves) had urged that this Parliament was not competent to deal with the subject, having been "elected on another policy, and then he opposed the resolution on its merits. But it Bhould be well understood what was the real power of Parliament. If they assented to the opinions of the hon. members for Selwyn and the Hutt, from representatives they would become mere delegates, having less weight than an annual Parliament, It was common with minorities when they could not assail the position of majorities, to try delay —to talk of appeals to the people—but it had been found that tactics of that kind were uniformly unsuccessful. The doctrine that Parliament had no power to deal with any subject brought before it was simply revolutionary. [On the subject of the power of Parliament to deal with questions not discussed, or in opposition to views prevalent, when they were elected, the Premier then read a number of extracts —from Tod's History of Parliamentary Government in England ; from the opinions of Sir Robert Peel, as expressed during the great corn-law debate; from tho speeches of Lord Brougham in the House of Lords ; from the speech of Mr. Gladstone in reply to Mr. Disraeli on the Disestablishment of the Irish Church ; and from that of Lord Carnarvon on the question of tho Dominion of

Canada, and the opposition of Nova Scotia to the Union because the question had not been remitted to the people of that Province : all these opinions strongly supported the Premier's view that Parliament has power to deal with any subject that may arise.] He thought it desirable to set the minority right in their attempt to check the course of the majority on the ground that it was not competent for the present Parliament to deal with the question that had been submitted to it, and to resist attacks directed against the power of Parliament. The hon. member f >r Selwyn, set himself up as a model of consistency. He was a Proviucialist when he was elected ; and he put it forward that any opinion he formed must be right. His statement, however, that the present Parliament was elected purely on a policy of public works could scarcely be regarded as altogether true. For how did lie get here ? It wa3 his promise to impose a heavy duty on grain which competed in the Provincial market with Canterbury-grown grain that carried him in ! (Laughter.) Had he not also a vague idea that he would accomplish much through the reformation of the land laws of Canterbury! He did not then think that " whatever is, is right." He then looked as if he was very much dissatisfied with Provincial institutions. Everything must give way to a reform of the land laws. The hon. member must himself be very oblivious, or think that those who sat on the Treasury benches were so, when he put forward the plea now that Parliament having been elected solely on a policy of public works could not deal with any other subject that came before it. Another hon. member who did not always think that "whatever is, is right," was the hon. member for Port Chalmers. He also said now that they must go to the people ; but he did not think that the hon. member had always held the same opinion, for it was recorded that in 1861 he had wished to destroy all Provincial institutions in the Middle Island. He then proposed a Parliament of forty-five members, not for Provinces, but for the whole Island, and that Parliament was to have a term of five years. But yet the hon. member for Selwyn made a great point of the assertion that the abolition of Provincial institutions was an entirely new proposal. He had the astoundin" assurance to assert that a question that had been in men's minds, in and out of the House, for years, was a new question. It had been, indeed, a test question in the minds of all men, in various forms—Provincialism, anti-Provin-cialism,?Centralism, Federalism, &c, for years. Yet the hon. member said it was a new question, which Parliament had no right to touch. But he might well appeal to many hon. members whom he now saw before him who had never disguised their opinion, and with whom it was no new question. He might allude to Sir J. C. Wilson; the hon. member for Timaru (Mr. Stafford), who had always held and expressed very strong opinions on the subject. To say to that hon. member the question was new was perfectly absurd. . There, also, were Major Atkinson, Mr. Brandon (though he did not vote with the Government), Mr. Bradshaw; Mr. Curtis, who had said to his constituents that he was opposed to Provincialism and that the only way to muzzle him was to elect him Superintendent—(laughter) ; the two members for the Hutt—one who had been consistent, and one who had changed his opinions (Mr. Fitzherbert), who was a pronounced Provmcialist in the session of 1867 ; Mr. J. E. Brown, who never had concealed his opinions ; Mr. Carrington, Mr. Cuthbertson ; and Mr. T. B. Gillies, who was at one time a most extreme anti-Provincialist, and a host of others. There were also Mr. Williams —and why he had not voted with the Government . he could not understand—and Mr. Eeader Wood ; while among those who were not now in the House he could recall the names of Mr. Moorhouse, Mr. Wells, Mr. Ludlam, and many others, who did not conceal their opinions. Yet this was "a new qxiestion !" -Where had the hon. member for Selwyn been living all this time ? Did he never hear people talk? Did lie never read a newspaper ? Did he take no interest in the proceedings of the House ? Had he done anything of those things it would not have occurred to him to give so thoughtless an opinion. They might appeal to the constituencies on the general question, but some other issue would always intervene. In Otago an election might turn rather on whether a certain hundred was to be proclaimed than upon the question of the abolition of Provinces in the North Island ; in Nelson, on a dray road to the West Coast; and iD Selwyn on a good stiff duty upon grain from other Provinces ! In Victoria they had but lately seen a general election take place on the one question submitted by the Ministry —the reform of the Constitution—and when the As-sembly-met no one was able to tell how members would vote. It was desirable that constituencies should have pronounced opinions and send up representatives with some firmness about them. Measures not men was a fallacy. The hon. member for Selwyn himself might travel the Colony, and say to every constituency in turn, " I agree with you," and yet those constituencies might not like to see him as Premier, for he could not recognise the modesty which made him a substitute for some Superintendent who did not desire to appear in the lead. He was surprised, he confessed, at the largeness of the vote by which the Government had been supported, and the more so when he knew that of the sixteen who voted in opposition eleven were Superintendents, or members of Provincial Executives, or members of Provincial Councils. The remainder —and those eleven lion, gentlemen should see it—were composed of the bitterest enemies of Provincialism, who opposed the Government because it did not go far enough.' And this was the great party who wished to appeal to the country ! He reminded the House that in 1871 and again in 1872 he had warned the House that Provincialism was not safe—that if opposed to the policy of public works it must go to the wall It had then been suggested that the Province should be starved into submission, and this it would have been easy to do ; but he had preferred to treat them generously, and wait the time when the system would no longer be found advantageous to the country. As to his own change of convictions, what had happened to him had happened to thousands. Consistency in holding fast to certain views was no merit. The motives attributed to him were wholly without foundation ; though he was free to confess that the action of those who 'had opposed the Forests Bill had opened his eyes very wide. The disinclination of the Provinces to give a small portion of their bush land to the Colony, added to their previous refusal to give a portion of their waste lands to pay for the railways, did strike him forcibly ; for in this land question the future of the Colony was involved. Mr. Reeves spoke disparagingly of a resident Minister in Auckland ; but when, excepting when Parliament sat, had Auckland been without a resident Minister ? The same might be said of Hawke's Bay, and something of the same of Taranaki as regards Native matters. Nothing could be further from their intentions than hon. members opposite had put into their mouths. As to savings, it was easy' to understand that when the Executives and Councils were done away with, the surveyors under one head, the defence force properly organised, the miscellaneous expenditure regulated, and the construction of public works under one management, excepting Otago and Canterbury, there would be a saving, and a larger efficiency attained. It had been alleged that the action of the Government had broken up the party. On the contrary, a powerful partyhadbeeuformed. Outoftheinajority which put the Ministry in office only four friends had seen fit to leave them lately, and he hoped it was only temporarily. He alluded to Mr. Hunter, to whom a seat in the Cabinet had at one time been offered, and of whose friendship and judgment he spoke in the highest terms; the hon. member for Port Chalmers ; and the hon. member for Selwyn whose sudden transition from friendliness to vicious and spiteful opposition some ten days ago had occasioned him some surprise. There was also another member —a late colleague, whose loss he ako regretted ; but who, he knew, thought the principle of the Government's resolutions was right, though the time to bring them before the country, he thought, had not arrived. He had been burned in effigy, ho was told, but did not feel much the. worse for it. The propositions of the Govern-

ment, in fact, were not understood in Auckland, so much had telegrams, and pens and inV, assisted to mislead men's minds. If the peop'e of Auckland knew aright the propositions of the Government they could not fail to be delighted with their freedom from those trammels that had lain over them and weighed them down for years. What he proposed was a complete localisation of revenue for local purposes, education, &c, and no one who had travelled through the Colony could fail to see how much. Auckland had yet to do, and could do, under the system he proposed. It was simply a question of understanding what the Government had in view. (Hear, hear). They neither proposed to take away the seat of Government from the North, nor the land revenue from the South. He saw in that enlightened journal, the Lyttciton Times, that the Government proposed to break the compacts of 1856. The hon. member (Mr. Reeves) was bold enough to assert that, and possibly some people might believe it. There was no such thing contenrplafced. As long as Otago and Canterbury could cany on with advantage to the Colony they would be carried on. (Hear, hear.) The other day he said he did not think Superintendents and Executives in the Middle Island were synonymous with the land fund. The Provincial form of Government was successful in the two great Provinces named, but it would in a measure be on its trial when side by side with Colonial institutions. No new form of Government was proposed. Departmental management would be substituted for Provincial institutions ; there would be an enlarged and much more powerful form of local Government, with reserves upon which it could depend and not of an elemosynary character, with local rates ; and charged with the maintenance of smaller works, and expected to lend assistance to larger works. The reserves that had hitherto been scattered all over the Island would be localised; a share of the land fund would pass in aid of local works; and the larger districts would be charged with the management of larger works.. Though the two islands were somewhat differently situated, they must look to the land fund for future public works. The Government were quite willing that the land fund in the Middle Island should be left intact and untouched, but they must create a land revenue in the North Island. That policy had the sanction of the Government. It was asked what necessity was there for these changes ? In 1870 it was proposed to borrow £10,000,000. Of that sum £8,000,000 was for, railways, and for these the lands were security. But only six and a half millions had been apportioned to the railways—the other million and a half had gone in concessions toJ;he Provinces (hear, hear), which were ever pressing, to purchase support for the Public W"rks and Immigration policy. Whether it would have been better to have had the double struggle in 1870 was a question. Nothing was more commendable than to turn evil to good. But he thought the hon. member for the Hutt would rather hive put his hand in the fire than have given him (Mr. Vogel) this opportunity, in speaking to his amendment, Of putting the country in possession of the information it desired. The plans proposed could not be earned out all at once, but in the end they .would assimilate the Constitution of New Zealand to that of every other Colony of Britain. There was a struggle before the Government, but public opinion would grow stronger from day to day in therr favor the more thoughtful men thought; for themselves over the matter. Parliament had been forced to the conviction at which it had now arrived, and an appeal to the country, he had no doubt, would result in very; strong support to the resolutions. He proposed, 1 as'an amendment to Mr. Fitzherbert's : , (1.) That this House having resolved (that taking the circumstances of the Colony into consideration) the Provincial form of Government in the North Island should be abolished, this House further declares its opinion that an organic change irs the Constitution, involving the establishment of a Central Bureaucratic Authority for Vic administration of Provincial affairs in the Northern Provinces, in substitution for the rights and pou-ers conferred on the people of the Colony by the Imperial Parliament, ought not to be made without first testing tlie' opinion of the people through their constituencies. fS.J That in order to give effect to the foregoing resolution, a respectful Address be presented to His Excellency praying him to dissolve the present Parliament That all the words printed in italics be left out with the view of inserting the following in lieu thereof: — "the Provincial system of government in the North Island should, as soon as possible, be followed by an inexpensive but more thorough form of local government, under which the Island should be divided into districts and sub-districts, endowed with substantial revenues, and the residents therein be enabled to take a larger and more direct share in the management of local affairs, and the expenditure of local revenues than is at present the case." Mr. STAFFORD said he had very great pleasure in seconding the amendment of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government. He said so because he looked upon it as a step in the right direction. It was in the direction in which his sympathies and feelings had been for many years. The hon. gentleman was perfectly correct in stating that this question was no new one to him (Mr. Stafford). It was in the direction in which he and many friends who still sat in that House had long labored to see brought face to face with the public of New Zealand. This was but the beginning of a very hard fight that would have to be fought before this question was finally decided. The hon. member for the Hutt had spoken -with commendable brevity; but had disappointed him both in what he said and what he did not say. He had expected from his friend a larger exposition and defence of the line he was now taking, which if the hon. gentleman would allow him to say so, was largely inconsistent with the views and principles he had advocated in past years. The hon. gentleman had founded his remarks almost entirely upon the question of a dissolution of the House before the question was finally settled. The hon. gentleman at the head of the Government had very carefully adduced reasons to show that there was no vitality in that argument. But if they had to confine themselves to what had occurred in this country, he would remind his hon. friend off some very important questions—to useHs own phrase—quite as revolutionary as that now proposed, to which he had largely been a party. He would remind him that without previous intimation to the country, in 1861, the hon. gentleman in the important position of Colonial Treasurer advocated the removal of the seat of Government, and the removal of 10,000 of Her Majesty's troops at a time of war, without any previous intimation. And so determined was the hon. gentleman that no opportunity should be given of expressing an opinion on the subject that he absolutely used the most stringent forma of the House—more stringent then than now—and refused to allow him (Mr. Stafford) and others to protest against that action, by preventing them from opening their mouths on the subject by insisting upon the question, being immediately put, and without debate. On the same principle in past years was he to be found advocating the very important step of taking away from Canterbury the County of Westland, and some time afterwards in supporting the establishment of the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works. These acts were just as decisive, and * in the same direction which the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government now wanted the House to take. (Hear, and cries of "No.") Well, if the localisation of revenues, the endowment of local districts with local revenues, and giving them the management of their affairs were not in the same direction as. the events to which he had just alluded, he was not able to discover the proper meaning of words. The hon. gentleman had always given good advice in a direction that affected most of the questions referred to and the subject now being debated. So far back as 1863, nine years ago, the hon. gentleman's foresight and sagacity led him to pi edict what would be the fate of Provinces that got into the position of some of the Provinces at the present time—a position which they were not only now in, but had been for some time past. He recollected the hon. gentleman, then a colleague of his, making a speech, which, of all others, would be the best considered, and most carefully weighed, and necessarily carrying the greatest weight. He meant the Financial Statement, in which he was referring to the impecunious position of some of the Provinces, and to the fact that one of the greatest duties and most arduous task the Treasurer of the day had was to consider how to dole out salaries so as to enable those Provinces to continue to exist. In that budget speech of the hon. gentleman was a remarkable passage that

when a Province was unable to carry on its functions it should bei\ec\*Tei\ functus ojftcio. ' It had been the habit to speak of the Provinces as if they were inherently a form of government peculiarly valuable ; but for his part he absolutely denied that the question of local self-government necessarily depended on a ProvincTal Council. (Hear.) He refused to believe it. Nay, move, he would.go further, and say that he conscientiously believed that in some of the larger Provinces the existence of Superintendents and Provincial Councils had stood iu the way of local self-govern-ment. They became central governments instead of diffusing local self-government, throughout the country. He was aware what an invidious aspect the measure had m not being universal, but, speaking for himself, he said fearlessly that he would have preferred that the House should have been asked to consider a measure of universal application. He did not pretend to believe for . a moment this was to be final ; it was only the beginning of the end, but for his part he did not care how soon that end came, and, what was more, he believed the country would largely respond, and say they would not only accept, but wished it went a great deal farther. Why, many of the minority voted against it because it wasnotauniversal measure. What would be the position of the minority, what would be its chances of cohesion if after a short time it should be proposed to go the whole length and make the change a universal one ? The Premier had nothing to fear if he went to the country to-morrow. That there would be a great fight in some of the capital towns of the Provinces he was ready to believe : there was a large bread and butter interest in the question, which would die very hard indeed, and the sooner they recognised the work they •would have" to encounter the better. He was not going to take tho country by surprise, so far as he was concerned. If the North Island was at present invidiously placed by its exceptional treatment, it might take the consolation to its heart that soon its Southern neighbors would be in the same position. After referring to his being found on the opposite side to the member for the Hutt, the hon. gentleman said he felt bound to support a proposition that ran all-fours with what he had advocated for many years. He was prepared to march with anybody, and against anybody, no matter how old a political friend. Before this question was settled, we should see very considerable separations of those who had been acting in accord and cohesion on the part of others who hitherto had not been in accord. He trusted whatever might be the result there would be no personal asperity, but that they should take such action as public duty required. We were approaching those days of difficulty, when the best men of the country would require to do their best to carry it through its difficulties. If they did not consent to do so God help the country. Mi-. PITZHEKBEET replied to the hon. member for Timaru at great length, urging that there was no parity between the instances he had alluded to and the present case, in which it was sought to make a fundamental change in the Constitution that had lasted half a century, and take away public privileges, without consulting the people. If they passed' the Bill without reference to the people, they might depend on it it would only be the beginning of a series of conflicts. Mr. POX replied to two points of the speech by the hon. member for the Hutt. " Going to the people" meant merely referring the matter to a new Parliament, which would be far less capable of dealing with the question than a matured Parliament like the present. And as to the alleged magnitude of the struggle, there would not be any great struggle on the question of abolition, whatever difficulty there might be in dealing with details. Whatever might he the case in the City of Auckland, or among a few on the beach in Wellington, in the country districts of all the Provinces there would be entire unanimity, and in the Middle Island Nelson, Westland, and Marlborough only waited to be wooed. As to charges of inconsistency there was none apparently more inconsistent on the question than he was, but the key to the difference between his past and present action was this—that while at the beginning he desired that the powers of the Provinces and the General Legislature should Be thoroughly and distinctly defined, it was now hopeless to maintain the original distinction which* was desired. Prom 1880 it was hopeless to continue the relative positions of. the Governments. The functions of the Provinces were changed, firct by the war, then by the Native Lands Act, then by the decision that the Provinces should cease to borrow, and, fourth and last, by the policy of public works and immigration. When the time had come that the struggle could no longer continue—when the Provinces could be no longer of utility—it was time for every man, regardless o: charges of tergiversation or inconsistency, to set his face iu the right direction. They might call him inconsistent, but he gloried in it when, by changes in cireum itances, consistency became wrong. They had been told that this was a great revolution, but every reform was not a revolution, and the mere alteration or extension of the machinery of government need create no alarm. There was an equal greater revolution, without the people being* eonsulted, when the constitution was given to the Colony, but New .Zealand .did not fly into a thousand fragments. He appreciated Provincial Governments, and what they had done, but they were effete, and there would certainly not be less, but more local knowledge and action under the" institution of District or Road Boards; the localisation of government would be greater and more intense than ever it had been under the Provincial system, while the day for the real work of the Prov.nces—that of colonisation —was, for the reasons he had cited, past and gone. The hon. gentleman concluded an emphatic and eloquent speech amid applause. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD followed. He thought it unnecessary to have a dissolution and supported the amendment of the. Premier. Mr. SWANSON proposed to add to the amendment, the- words " That a Bill to give effect to the resolutions be extensively circulated two months before the meeting of Parliament." He asked if the Premier would accept the addition. Mr. VOGEL preferred that it should come as a substantive motion. Mr. WHITE desired to know what was meant by the Government proposal to give to the District Boards substantial revenue. Mr. W. JOHNSTON said that it was on the understanding that these Boards were to be substantially endowed that all his doubts and difficulties had vanished. After some remarks by Mr. Hdntek and Mr. BiiANDON.in reply to Mr. Pox, Mr. KOLLESTON said that, in the debate, three main questions had been overlooked—the redistribution of representation, the incidence of taxation, and the representation of the people in the Government instead of personal government iu the House. He believed the verdict of the country would be very aifferont -from what was anticipated by the premier. On the question being put that the words proposed by the member for the Hutt stand part of the question, a division was taken, with thfi.following result :—Ayes. 19 ; noes, 45. On Mr. Swaxsos's amendment being put, Mr. VOGEL asked hon. members not to put such an indignity upon the Ministry, as to resolve that they should bring in a Bin at a particular period, or before it was explained. It would bo unusual, as it would bo inconvenient. , Mr. STAEPOKD supported the view of the Premier.. On a division, Mr. Swanson's amendment -tray negatived, the voting being—Ayes, 21; noes, 40.. . The motion proposed by Mr. "Vogel was then put, and was carried on tho voices, there being no dissentient voice or call for a divisi6n. The House was adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock. •