PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4189, 24 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, August 21. THE PUBLIC WORKS AND IMMIGRATION LOAN BILL. The Hon Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of the above Bill. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE observed that it would be remembered by some hon. gentlemen that in a discussion which took place upon this subject last year it was argued by some that the indebtedness of the Colony would amount to something like sixteen and a-half millions, but his own estimate was that it would be about seventeen millions; and that they were told the aspect they then took of the matter was an extravagant one, but the information they got at the commencement of this session showed that those estimateswere below the mark. The Premier, in introducing the Bill, stated that the total amount of our indebtedness at the present time was twelve million four hundred and ninety-four thousand pounds, that two million five hundred and ten thousand pounds were authorised to be raised, but not yet raised, in addition to which it was now sought to raise an additional four millions. It would thus follow that when this Bill was passed the Government would have authority to raise six millions in addition to the twelve and a-half millions already raised, thus bringing the total of our indebtedness up to eighteen and a-half millions. It by no means followed that the amount sought to be raised would suffice to complete the works already authorised. They knew to complete these works would cost very much more than had been anticipated. In the Public Works Statement it was distinctly stated that the expenditure on several impoi-iant works would far exceed the estimates, and reference was made to one particular work—the Wellington and Masterton railway—the authorised expenditure on which would carry it little more than forty-two miles of the distance, which was seventy miles. There was no guarantee, nor was it probable, that the amount authorised would complete the works already sanctioned, while at the same time there would be large and important works in both Islands wanting connection. Last year he stated that the indebtedness of the Colony allowing it to be what it was then represented to be, about sixteen and a-balf millions was unprecedented in the history of any country, either in ancient or modem times. If that statement was true then, it j would be still more time at the present day, because our indebtedness was increasing more rapidly than our population. It would be well to compare our indebtedness with that of the other Australian Colonies, for these comparisons sometimes enabled us to appreciate more fully the burdens we were imposing upon ourselves. In the Sydney Morning Herald, of July 25th, it was stated that the total indebtedness of the Australian Colonies was thirty-one million eight hundred and six thousand pounds, or seventeen pounds twelve shillings and fivepence farthing for every individual inhabitant of Australia. It would be seen that our indebtedness when the loans authorised and the existing loans had been raised, would exceed three times the averago ‘ indebtedness of the population of Australia. In Australia, the debt was borne by a population inhabiting a country possessing nearly thirty times the area of New Zealand, where the debt was borne by a population occupying a country incapable of the same proportionate expansion as Australia was. Take the apportionment of that debt to the different. Colonies. Victoria’s was £11,984,000 ; New South Wales, £10,073,000 ; Queensland, £454,700 (?); South Australia, £2,284,000 ; Tasmania, £4,415,000 : and Western Australia, £35,000. The rate of indebtedness in Queensland was £34 ; in New South Wales, £l9 19s. ; Victoria, £ls 11s. ; Tasmania, £l4 2s. lOd. South Australia, £ll 17s. 7d. ; Western Australia, £1 7s. 2id. It might be, and had been said that the circumstances of New Zealand and the Australian Colonies differed in another respect, that, owing to the initiation of the system of public works, we stand in a position so much superior to the other colonies, that we can bear greatly increased burdens, and, in proof of this, we were pointed to the fact that with this initiation of the public works scheme the revenue and prosperity of the Colony had increased in a remarkable and almost unprecedented degree. It has been continually said that the prosperity of New Zealand is due to exceptional causes, and that those exceptional causes were bound up with the initiation of that public works scheme. A more erroneous belief there could not be, and it was one that, if not checked, would be fraught with dangerous consequences, inasmuch as it was calculated to lead to an extension of the system of borrowing which, if unchecked, would involve the Colony in absolute ruin. He had said that the prosperity of New Zealand, notwithstanding what the people might say about the debt of gratitude we owed to one individual for the policy, was due, not to exceptional causes, but to cause which affected other countries as well as New Zealand. He might be allowed upon this point to give the result of some little investigation he had made recently into the statistics of various countries, from which members would at once see that as he had stated, our prosperity was not due to exceptional causes and public works, but was mainly attributable to similar causes that had brought about prosperity in other places. He would probably astonish members by showing—strange as it might appear—that our prosperity, instead of being greater than those countries he was about to allude to, had absolutely been less. He would take the figures for the last four years, beginning with 1809, when our public works scheme was initiated, up to last year, which was the latest whose returns were fully made up and contained in the Parliamentary papers. It would appear that in 1869 our Customs revenue amounted to £823,000, and our Consolidated Revenue to one million and thirty two thousand pounds. For the year 1872-3, after the expiration of four years, our revenue had- increased only from £823,000 to £852,000, while our Consolidated Revenue had increased during those four years only from one million and fifty-two thousand pounds to one million one hundred and nineteen thousand pounds, or about 8 per cent. Last year, as they knew, there was a great increase in our revenue, our Customs’ revenue sprang up from the figures he had mentioned, to one million one hundred and eleven thousand pounds, and our general revenues from one million and fifty-two thousand pounds to one million four hundred and twenty thousand pounds, or rather less than 40 per cent. For the comparison he was going to make, ho would take the leading Australian Colonies and other countries whose products and whose prosperity were influenced by the same causes. He left out the Colony of Victoria, because it had become a great manufacturing country; its revenue was of a more stationary character than that of any other Colony—representing more the stationary character of tho British Empire than any other Australian Colony. He would first take a comparison with South Australia. There, in 1869, the Customs revenue was £223,042; and in March, 1872, the revenue had increased to £381,000, so that South Australia in the same period of time, without any public works policy to which their prosperity was attributable, had increased her revenue 70 per cent., while our increase was only 40 per cent. Then take New South Wales. In 1869, her revenue was two millions two hundred and twenty thousand pounds, and in 1872—he was going back eighteen months—it had sprung up to three millions three hundred and seventy-three thousand pounds, having in that year a surplus of £650,000, so large that they were compelled to pay off a portion of their debt with it to the extent of £350,000, and of considering their future taxation. In the four years ending 1872, there was an actual increase of revenue of over 50 per cent., while during the same time, our revenue had increased only 8 per cent.! Last year there was a considerable reduction of Customs dues in New South Wales, which in our case there was an increase. Last year, although there was a decrease of Customs dues, yet the Customs revenue elicited a sum of £1,127,000 as against £838,000, so that with even that decrease as against our increase, in tho five years referred to; that Colony had an increase of 50 per cent, as against ours of 40 per cent. In QueenaI jaud in 1869 the revenue was £380,000 of

Customs revenue ; and in 1872 £483,000, an increase of 60 per cent., while the general revenue sprang up in 1872 £124,000, or about 50 per cent. In the Cape of Good Hope in 1869 the revenue was £535,000, and in 1872, the latest statistics he could refer to, it had gone up to £1,039,000, having actually doubled in four years. Then there was the Chilian Confederation, depending upon much the same products as this Colony. In 1869 its Customs revenue was £823,000, and its general revenue £1,111,000, and in 1872 the former had increased to £1,032,000, and £1,420,000 respectively. The Argentine Republic’s revenue in 1869 was £2,059,000, and in 1872 £3,721,000, or 50 per cent. incx*ease in four years as against our 8 per cent. Vet these countries had had no great financial genius to develop their properity, which was solely due to the increased value of the products they produced. In fact, it would be found their prosperity was mainly the prosperity that had characterised New Zealand during the last two or three years. He was referring to this subject at some length because it was important to get rid of the idea that the prosperity of the Colony was due to any one man or any one policy. It was due to the same causes which had brought about the prosperity of other Colonies ; was liable to the same reverses to which other Colonies in similar circumstances were exposed. We should clear away this illusion that our prosperity was due solely to the public woiks policy, as was so frequently maintained, and as he gathered from the Premier’s speech in introducing the Bill, innocently believed by him to be so, and a large number of the public were prepared to believe likewise. He asked whether without the existing prosperity we could bear the burden of taxation the public woiks scheme had imposed on us ? Had we any reason to believe that continued prospexity, such as that enjoyed at the px-esent time, was to be depended on ? Did our present prosperity arise from durable causes, or from causes of a temporary character which might be succeeded by a depression similar to that which, to a greater or lesser extent, we had experienced in former days. He again asked, to what was our present prosperity due ? It was due mainly to the increased value of our products. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to show at great length that our prosperity was mainly due to the increased price of wool, the extension of credit, and lastly to the public works policy. As regarded the future : we had still before us the development of the public works policy. Doubtless a large amount of money had been introduced in connection with the works, and during the next two or three years might have considerable influence in warding off the evils which would otherwise be experienced from the tightening influence which was beginning to operate on the money market. Our present revenue large as it was would not suffice to meet our current expenditure, if brought honestly face to face with it. (Cries of u Oh.”) After condemning the payment out of loan of services, which should be met out of the revenue, he proceeded to discuss the items for which the present loan was asked. • With the exception of the three millions for railways, he maintained none of the other items were essential to the completion of the public works policy. With regard to immigration, he said he considered the number of immigrants now on their way to the Colony were more than sufficient for our requirements. (Cries of “ No.”) At the present time something like 14,000 people were on their way out. And what was the condition of the labor market. They saw in Otago notices of want of accommodation —of people obliged to live in tents for want of barrack or other accommodation. Wherever one went you saw immigrants wandering over the country, and he had heard accounts of their going about in search of employment to an extent that he was not prepai’ed to find. He was satisfied that if we went on increasing our immigrants at the rate it was proposed to proceed, the effect would be simply to lead to the emigration of the best portion of our population to the adjacent Colonies in less than twelve months. Those who were coming were not in a position to get away. He was satisfied the salvation of the Colony was in the hands of the Council, and it depended on them to say whether we should keep within the limits of prudence or suppox-t reckless borrowing, and should involve ourselves in an amount of expenditure that would be disastrous to the authors of the expenditure and the people of the Colony at large. He knew that now as foxmerly his observations would, perhaps, be likened to Cassandra’s warnings. He-was content that the comparison should apply. What was Cassandra's peculiar character. It was that while her warnings were true, no person would believe those warnings, and the result was that those she endeavored to save from ruin, by neglecting to use prudence and appreciate what she uttered involved themselves in her destruction. He was satisfied if the Colony and the Legislature did not use prudent means to put a check upon reckless expenditure, ruin would reach the Colony. They would be some of the first to reject the action they had taken if they did not in sufficient time raise their voices in favor of measures of prudence and caution. He concluded, amidst applause, by moving the resolutions - that appeared in Saturday’s paper. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES seconded the resolution in a lengthy speech, in which he referred to the spirit of speculation that pervad_ed the policy, and characterised the proposal to issue short-dated debentures as gambling. The Hon. Dr. GRACE supported the Bill in a very eloquent speech. The Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL compared our revenue with that of the Australian Colonies, and drew deductions favorable to New Zealand. He strongly urged the continuance of immigration, and denied that the labor market was overstocked. . The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY urged that the Government should lose no time in retracing its steps, and insisting on the cardinal principle of the policy, as developed in 1870, of making the cost of railways a charge upon the land, being carried out. The Hon. Mr. JOHNSON said he should feel it is duty to oppose the Bill, unless the Council received information why the_ last loan was not quoted in the investors’ list of the Government. The Hon. Mr. Chamberlin supported the Bill, and Mr. Stokes opposed it. The Hon. Col. KENNY complained that the policy of 1874 was not that of 1870. One end of it, the guarantee of the land fund, had been lost sight of, and until they retraced their steps in that direction, the policy would not be carried out. The turn of those who acted with him would soon come. He could not vote for sanctioning the loan for these proposed works, because they were not the works already authorised, and the Council would only be departing step by step from the position that ought to have been strictly observed at the commencement of the policy. Ho was content to range himself on the side of those who would vote against the Bill, as part of the policy which ho believed would prove destructive. But he believed hon. members would live to see the day when they would regret having taken the course they had. He should be still content to vote w.ith a small minority. Tho Hon. Mr. MANTELL, as another of the small minority, regretted that he was not placed in the position of rather being able to give his voice against the Bill as a whole, than appearing by separating the resolution to approve of part of it. The principle was gambling; wo risked a large sum of money, and hitherto we had no-return for it. For the present those who supported tho measure might be right, but time, and before many years had passed, would show who were really right. He would go to a division for the purpose of expressing his dissent from the whole measure. The Hon. Mr. PEACOCK thought that the Council had itself to blame for having sanctioned a departure from tho original policy. At the beginning no one expected the money then borrowed would be sufficient. He disagreed with Mr. Waterhouse in trying to stop immigration, because immigration was tho corner-stone of the policy. The prosperity of tho Colony was bound to increase as the railways began to pay. lie objected to Mr. Waterhouse’s figures as not affording a true criterion of tho relative increases of revenue between that of New Zealand and • the Australian Colonies, because the latter included

land revenue, which in New Zealand was Provincial, not Colonial Revenue. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE remarked that he had given two quotations—one of Customs revenue, the other general and Customs, which included territorial revenue. The Hon. Mr. PEACOCK thought, so far as immigration was concerned, they might very well decrease for a time the number of people being brought out, and rely on nominated immigration. By that means they would get rid of a whole host of almost useless agents, and be relieved of the difficulty of having to build places for a useless class of immigrants, such as was now coming to the Colony. The Hon. Dr. MENZIES observed that the policy of the present Government embodied the idea' of immigration and public works which he had believed in for years, but he did not believe in the policy unfolded by the Government. But on this occasion he could not support .the amendment. The three millions must be voted. One of the items objected to was for immigration. He had always hold that immigration was the sheet anchor of the whole policy, and had observed with -regret that on different occasions the Government had not steadily kept that, idea in view. Sometimes immigration had been a secondary and public works the first object with the Government. He had held from the first, that the success of the whole policy depended entirely on the success of the immigration scheme; in fact, the large schemes that had been inaugurated could only be - carried to a successful issue by the immigration policy being earned out judiciously. If not it would lead, not to the ruin of the Colony, but to great financial embarrassment. Holding those opinions, and distrusting the ideas that seemed to govern the Administration, he had on former occasions endeavored to put a break on the action of the Government, but on this occasion he would not, -because to do so might arrest the stream of immigration and embarrass the action of the Government in regard to immigration. As he desired to arrest any reckless expenditure, and extravagant waste, such as had been disclosed in some quarters, and which he knew to take place in others, he would willingly take any other action, short of such action as would embarrass the Government in this matter. The Colony had gone on so long, and so thoroughly into this immigration and public works, that it must carry it out. We were in the midst of the stream, and could not stop. They must be content to go on trusting to the driver to carry them through safely. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in reply, observed that he understood Mr. Johnson to say that unless he was able to give him information why a particidar loan did not appear in the investors’ list in the Economist, and what was the due date of the debentures sold lately, he would feel it to be his duty to vote against the Bill. Seeing that his vote against the Bill might have the effect of throwing the Bill out, and so arresting public works in the Colony and stopping immigration l and damaging the public credit, he thought-the reasons the hon gentleman gave for undertaking the responsibility of such a calamity, and the grounds on which he required the information, were not satisfactory. It was impossible for him to say why it was that the loan did not appear in the investors’ list. Probably it was because it was sold at such a time that they had not yet had opportunity by course of post to receive the particular number of the paper in which it could have appeared after the sale ; and as to the mode in which the loan had been disposed of, he -was not at that moment in a position to describe the particular course, but he ventured to say that the loan was disposed of publicly and loyally. He thought with the names of the Agent-General for the Colony and the Crown agents, who were said to be the persons charged with the disposal of the loans, there was and should be no room for any suspicion of unfair, secret, or irregular dealings with the public property. The Hon. Mr. JOHNSON disclaimed any such idea. He merely made what he considered to be a fair demand on a Minister for information. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN observed that notwithstanding the hon. gentleman’s denial he thought he had rightly conveyed the impression made upon the Council by the words used. Since the hon. gentleman spoke- he had taken the trouble to inquire into the matter, and was advised that the debentures were due about thirty years hence, but there was an understood agreement that they could be redeemed in five years if such a course was thought desirable for financial reasons." With regard to what had fallen from Mr. Buckley, who complained of a departure from the original scheme, it was too late now to make a complaint of this sort the ground for refusing to the Government the means of prosecuting these works. He had stated over and over again that the responsibility of the scheme rested with the people and their representatives, and with no one else. The announcement that Mr. Holmes intended to vote against the Bill was what might have been expected from that hon. gentleman, who had informed the Council that our present condition of prosperity was owing solely to the increased price of woo), and would have the Council to believe that wool was the saviour of the Colony. Without at all attempting to derogate from the advantages of a large production of wool, and a larger price for that product, he (Dr. Pollen) ventured to say that the 200,000 other people who contributed to-the exports and revenues of the Colony had also to be considered. The holders of sheep runs were not the only persons who contributed to the exports of the Colony and assisted to promote its prosperity. He believed in giving credit whore credit was due. He must compliment Mr. Waterhouse on the speech ho had made. It was not often he heard that hon. gentleman make a speech with so much of which he could agree. But the position his hon. friend occupied in the Council now, and the position in which he not long since stood as head of the Government of the country, ought, he (Dr. Pollen) thought, have taught, and left him a sense of respon-sibility—(hear-)—which should have precluded him from inviting the Council to accept such a resolution as he had moved as an amendment to the motion. The hon. gentleman had compared himself to Cassandra. He would not have ventured himself to have made a comparison unfavorable to the hon. gentleman, but for his manner of treating the question. On this, as on former occasions, the hon. gentleman reminded him very much of the character of a croaker in a comedy which he remembered in his young days. This croaker was professor of the science of dissatisfaction—(laughter)—and employed himself in making himself miserable by prognostications of the future, quoting the sayings of a friend of his, one Dick Doleful. He (Dr. Pollen) was not without hope that time would satisfy the hon. gentleman that he had been disquieting himself without cause. His hon. friend suffered from a certain amount of mental obliquity which obliged him .to see that this public works and immigration policy was the policy of one individual, who really, after all, ought not to represent the policy at all. He (Dr. Pollen) had said over and over again, and repeated it now, that whatever the policy might have been in its inception—whatever credit or discredit might be due to the individual who had the courage and talent to originate it—it was no longer the policy of that man ; it was emphatically and entirely that of the country. (Hear.) The country was irrevocably committed to it, and out of it it could not get until completed, without destruction. The hon. gentleman had taken great pains to show that the present prosperity of the Colony was entirely independent of the public works and immigration scheme. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE corrected the hon. gentleman. Ho said exclusively dependent on the public works scheme. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN paid great attention to the hon. gentleman’s speech, and thought ho caught the gist of his observations. It was idle for them to say that their present prosperity was dependent on the public works scheme, and that the progress of the Colony was not influenced by the expenditure of borrowed money. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE explained that ho had attributed the prosperity of the Colony to three causes—the increased price of wool, the great extension of credit, and lastly, to the public works policy.

The Hon. .Dr. POLLEN was sorry to say that he differed from the hon. gentleman, and was unwilling to distort or misquote his observations, but certainly the impression they conveyed to his mind was that the prosperity of the country was not dependent on the public works policy. After referring to other arguments, the hon. gentleman remarked that his hon. friend objected to further expenditure on immigration. He (Dr. Pollen) thought that objection would meet with very little sympathy or concurrence in the Council or out of it. It would be necessary in the future to exercise more caution than had been exercised in the past in the matter of the selection of immigrants—as to their fitness, occupations, and class. What had been done in the past was absolutely and entirely necessary to carry on the public works, but not to carry on private businesses. It was quite true that the immigration had not been exclusively of the highest character, but it was equally true, and might in fairness be admitted that all the circumstances being considered—the pressure that was brought to bear on the agents at Home to send out people; the outcry that was made in the Colony for immigrants at any price—on the whole the immigrants might have been worse, and that he might even pronounce a higher opinion. The Government had not proceeded without caution. They had consulted the Provinces, and as carefully as possible had watched the stream in order that it might not overflow, and the manner in which the immigrants had been absorbed and placed throughout the country, was a wonderful operation, and creditable to all parties concerned. It was true that some of the immigrants had been obliged to take up their abode in tents; but he did not think those who had to do so had been subjected to any great hardship. He could remember when he first came to the Colony, he had to live in a tent for a couple of years, owing to the want of accommodation; and, on the whole, he was not much the worse for it. He hoped those persons who began life in the Colony by living in tents would do as well as he had done. (Hear.) The resolution the hon. gentleman had asked the Council to accept was a bundle of contradictions. There was not one of the works included in the four millions that had not already been sanctioned. To make a break now in the prosecution of public works would be followed by great misfortunes. The works to become profitable undertakings depended on completion. He hoped the Council would agree to the second reading.