HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4186, 20 August 1874, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, August 19. The Speaker took the chair at the usual' hour. PETITIONS. Mr. Bryce presented two petitions from Wan"tmui and residents on the banks of the river, praying that an opening might be made in the bridge to enable vessels to pass up the river. Mr. O'Neill laid on the table a petition from the Thames district. QUESTION. Mr. Rolleston gave notice that next day he would ask whether the Government would lay on the table any correspondence with the financial.agents as to the loans. reports. . Mr. Murray and Mr. W. Kelly brought up reports from Standing Committees. MOTION. Mr. T. L. Shepherd gave notice of his intention to move that the annual return of lands alienated from the Crown should show the Provinces and districts in which they were alienated. MAORI LEXICON. Mr.STEWARD asked,—"When Mr. ColensonV Maori lexicon would be published." It had now been in course of compilation for the past nine years. Sir D. McLEAN said Mr. Colenso had addressed to him a letter in August, 1873, in which he stated that since 1870, when the Government ceased to pay him, he had only worked at it at odd times. He said then that not a page was ready for the press. In another letter he stated that he would forward a portion of the manuscript in January, and another in the course of the summer. He had drawn Mr. Colenso's attention to the notice on the paper, and had been requested by telegram to refer to the letter of August-September, 1873. He had been suffering for some time from the effects of a severe accident. The Government had offered every assistance for the completion of the work, or a portion of it. No money had been paid to Mr. Colenso since 1870, but a sum would be due to him on its completion. CESSION OF LANDS AT MURIHIKU. Mr. TAIAROAasked, —"If the Government have approved of Mr. A. Mackay's arrangements in respect of certain lands at Murihiku ; if in such arrangements the division of the land was in favor only of the persons found on the spot by Mr. Mackay ; in which case, what will be done for those interested who were ignorant ■ of such arrangements. What the Government intend to do about the people or their descendants who claim to be iuterestedin those lands by reason of having been parties to the cession of land at Murihiku." He hoped the Government would not for the present carry out the arrangement suggested by Mr. Mackay. Sir D. McLEAN said there was -no objection to the postponement suggested by the hon. member. It was the desire of the Government to carry out, as far as it was possible'to do so, the arrangements make by Mr Mantell. RTVERTON HARBOR. Mr. McGILLIVRAY asked,—" Whether the Engineer-in-Chief will report upon the requirements of the harbor at Riverton, the Provincial Engineer hot having done so." Mr. RICHARDSON repeated that the Engineer-in-Chief had proceeded to Riverton, and obtained information to enable him to make a'report such as the hon. member asked 'for, but it would be incompatible with his position to make a report unless officially requested to do so by the Provincial authorities. On Buch application being made, or on the hon. member choosing to move a resolution to that effect, the report would be at once forthcoming. OUAGE OP THE CANTERBURY RAILWAYS. Mr. ROLLESTON asked,—" Whether the Government has in its possession any opinion from the Engineer-in-Chief, or other Engineer of the General Government, as to the expediency and economy of altering and reducing the width of guage of railways in the Province of Canterbury." Mr. RICHARDSON replied that the Government had no such report as was mentioned in the question, but if the hon. member moved a resolution to that effect there would be no difficulty in procuring a report on the subject by the Engineer-in-Chief. TAKING NATIVE LANDS FOR RAILWAY PURPOSES. Mr. TAKAMOANA asked,—" Whether any steps have been taken for the purpose of ascertaining and settling the claims of Native owners to lands which have been taken for the purposes of railways and other public works under the Immigration and Public Works Acts ; and if not, whether steps will be taken promptly for that purpose." " V Mr. RICHARDSON replied that exactly the same process was gone through to acquire Native lands for railway purposes as was gone through in acquiring European lands. The lands wCTe surveyed and valued, and a price offered to the Natives. If they were not satisfied with that price, the Natives had the same course open to them tinder the Railways Act as the Europeans had. If there was any_ particular case to which the hon. member wished to allude, or in which injustice had been done, he recommended him to advise the Natives in question to at once communicate with the Public Works Office and they would find their applications would receive instant attention. LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILLS. Sir D. McLean obtained leavo to introduce a Bill to amend the Volunteer Act of 1865, which was read a first time. PAPERS. Mr. VOGEL laid on the table the report of the Telegraph Department, and tables relating to the census. THE WAITEMATA ELECTION PETITION. The following gentlemen were sworn in as members of the Committee to try the above petition : Messrs. Johnston (chairman), Tolinie, Creighton, Wood, Webb, Parker, and Richmond. The first meeting of the Committee was fixed for to-morrow at 10.30 a.m. EXPLANATION. jlr. VOGEL observed that there were one or two points upon which he desired to set himself right with the House at once, rather than run the risk of of inaccuracy being brought against; him in future. Eirst, in reference to the statement that had been

made by some members that in the course of the debate on the second reading of the Immigration and Public Works Loan Bill he had pledged himself—-in fact, agreed to reduce the amount of short-dated debentures when the Bill went through committee. It would be recollected that the members for Heathcote and Parnell got up at the time and declared, that he had not said anything that would prevent him from taking any course the House permitted when the Bill w§nt through committee. On looking over the reports in Hansard he found no reference to any expression of willingness being made by. him to reduce the amount of short-dated debenturesThe other matter was a slight inaccuracy in his statement referring to the historical occurrences concerning the resignations of the Earl of Carnarvon, General Peel, and Lord Cranborne. It would be recollected that General Peel made no explanation, and that all resigned before any explanation was made, nor did those who explained speak from their places on the Ministerial benches. The exact statement was this :—On March 4, 1567, Lord Carnarvon, in the House of Lords, made his statement and wound up by saying " Under these circumstances Ihave thought it to be my duty to place my resignation in the hands of my hon. friend. - That has been accepted, and I now hold office awaiting the appointment of my successor." He explained this because it might be held Lord Carnarvon was speaking from his place. His resignation was accepted. With respect to what took place in the other House (the Commons), it bore out entirely his (Mr. Vogel's) view of the etiquette observed on these occasions. On the same day that Lord Carnarvon was asked for an explanation for having left the Government, Lord Cranborne replied, "I regret my reply must necessarily be brief. He' must be aware that it is not in the power of one who has had the honor of forming part of Her Majesty's Government, to speak of what has taken place without the permission of Her Majesty. That permission I have" not received ; I therefore regret to say that I cannot satisfy the hon. gentleman." On the next day, however, Lord Cranborne stated that he had received Her Majesty's permission, through Lord Derby, and he then gave an explanation of his retireinent from the Cabinet. He and General Peel had resigned the day before the explanation wa3 made. The SPEAKER was understood to say that his recollection of the debate on the Immigration and Public Works Loan Bill bore out the Premier that he gave no assurance to the House that he would reduce the amount of short-dated debentures. Theproofsof//ansar(?s reports came to his hands first, and on looking them over he saw that his impression was confirmed. There was nothing in them as to a pledge made by the Premier. REGULATION OF MINING MACHINERY BILL. A message from the Governor was read, covering two clauses, which his Excellency suggested should be added to the Bill as passed. Mr. RICHARDSON explained that in the Bill as introduced into another branch of the Legislature, these clauses were inserted, but the Legislative Council had thought fit to strike out the clauses imposing fees and the schedule. It was through his oversight when the Bill was passing through Committee in that House, that the clauses were not added to the Bill, though the House assented to the schedule. ABOLITION OF NORTH ISLAND PROVINCES. The adjourned debate was then resumed. Mr. McGLASHAN had no intention when moving the adjournment last evening, of taking part in the debate. He saw a disposition on the part of members not to rise in their places, and knowing the member for the Hutt wished to speak, but not that evening, he had undertaken the duty of fiUing up the gap. If he had consulted his own wishes, he would rather that the speech he was about to make should be considered as read : he would rather go to his constituents and deliver it to them. Quite sufficient time was given to the country to consider the resolutions, and he had no doubt they would express an opinion upon them. It was not extraordinary that the Superintendents and Provincial Secretaries of Provinces should be the chief opponents of the resolutions. Those gentlemen having tasted the sweets of office, wished to be regarded as petty princes, whose rule was to be law; but he (Mr. McGlashan) was not prepared to place the power of the country in the hands of Superintendents and their Provincial Secretaries. It would be better for the Provinces if the Superintendents and Provincial Secretaries were not in the House, but stayed at home and managed the affairs of the Provinces. Our Provincial institutions were too expensive. The cry had been raised that the Land Fund was in danger. He did not believe anything of the kind —it was quite the reverse. He looked upon it that it would go far to give confidence that the Laud Fund of the Middle Island would not be taken away if they passed an Act; and if it was necessary to pass a third or fourth Act, it would be better to do so in order to set the matter at rest for ever. The argument of the member for Selwyn that the time was not opportune for this change was illogical, unreasonable, and untenable. He believed in a shire system, similar to what the member for the Taieri introduced into the Otago Provincial Council in 1872. But he would go further and say that the Land Fund should be localised in making roads, bridges, and railways in outlying districts; and without such localisation, the interior parts of the country would remain a sheepwalk for some time to come. He supported the resolutions on the ground that they were required by the country. Mr. CUTHBERTSON would not apologise for troubling the House with his views on the resolutions, as the importance of the subject was such that the country had a right to expect that it would be fully discussed. The arguments in opposition to the resolutions bore a strange similarity in each succeeding speech, and had been paraded before hon. members like a military procession in a theatre, where the same figures constantly reappeared on the stage after having apparently vanished for ever from the scene. He laid little stress on the personal argument, or appeal to past utterances of hon. members, which had been freely used on both sides, and he would not appeal to it, though the temptation was strong, especially in the case of the • hon. member for Port Chalmers, whose past speeches furnished a copious repertoire of arguments against the position he had now assumed. The argument that the time was inopportune for bringing down these resolutions had been used by the hon. member for Selwyn, and by nearly every member who followed on the same side. There was no commoner Parliamentary fallacy ; there was never a change proposed of which the same might not be said. If the changes were good in themselves the time was opportune enough, and the country would have ample time to consider them. The resolutions had been described by the hon. member for Taieri as barren, and others had used the same argument. But that was as the event might prove. One function of that House, and a function often overlooked, was to be not only the exponent but the guide of public opinion. Tho. judgment pronounced by the House would go a long way to form tho public opinion of the Colony on the question, and should the result bo as ho supposed, and the resolutions be carried, he would like to hear next session, even before the resolutions passed into law, those hon. members who had used the epithet " barren" come up and repeat it then. But what was the alternative which these members who objected to the " barren resolutions" suggested? To bring in a Bill, and complete the work this session !" Had the Government adopted that plan of dealing with the • question there was reason to fear that it would have met with as little acceptance from tho objectors as the other, and there might have been objections taken then which might really have been difficult to answer. Ho was astonished and amused to observe during tho dobate the amount of friendly advico which had been tendered to the Government by members who intended to vote against the resolutions. One

advised this course, another that; anything but the course the Government had taken, and he was glad to see, intended to adhere to, notwithstanding all this friendly advice from their opponents. It had been argued there was no public demand for the change. This he denied. The question had been before the country for years, and there was now, and had always been, a demand for the change. The proposals had been brought forward from temper, it was said, and without due notice. He did not think so, but if they had it was no affair of his, and he was not careful to vindicate either the temper or the discretion of the Government. Tho resolutions were before the House now, however they had come there, and ought to be judged upon their merits. Provincial administration, it had been urged, was cheaper than Colonial, and this objection came chiefly from the Otago members, especially the hon. members for Port Chalmers, Taieri, and Waikouaiti. Even if they coidd prove this as regards Otago, which he did not admit they could, it had no application to the case of other Provinces which were not bo" prosperous. What about those Provinces where no independent Provincial administration was possible at all ? He had heard of a Province subsisting, ostrich-like, upon iron rails, provided originally for a very different purpose. The hon. member for Waikouaiti had quoted figures to show the comparative economy of the Otago engineering staff as compared with that of the Colony. But he forgot to tell the House that the large amount of work he set down to the credit of the Province existed as yet only in the form of estimates and surveys, and the work of the engineers had hardly yet begun. The hon. member for the Taieri made a great deal of the interference with the Constitution. But the Constitution had been amended already, and good as it was, could not be supposed to be incapable of modification, on constitutional principles, to suit the advancing development of the Colony. The hon. member (Mr. Cuthbertson) then adverted to the circumstances which gave rise to the late Province of Southland, which he described as a standing protest against Provincialism, and the centralising tendencies of Provincial Governments. He proceeded to give instances of loss and disaster, and needless expenditure arising from Provincial jealousies. The Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works he characterised not as a means of local selfgovernment, but as a means of compelling the Provincial Government of Canterbury to render a tardy and inadequate consideration to the claims of an outlying district, by localising 25 per cent, of the land revenue. A similar device had to be resorted to by the neglected northern districts of Otago, in the North Otago Loan, which anticipated and localised a certain amount of the land revenue of that district. The objection had been made that the agitation consequent on these proposals would be injurious to the credit of the Colony in London. On the contrary, he believed it would have the very opposite effect. The Stock Exchange had always been jealous of the Provinces, and any step towards consolidation of the Government would be received with favor in the London money market. The hon. member for Port Chalmers made a great bugbear of what he was pleased to term the inevitable spoliation of the South Island Land Fund. No such spoliation would result from the present proposals, and no such spoliation wa3 possible, while the South Island retained the commanding influence in the Legislature which it had at present. When the happy day had come in which the North Island should have made such advances in prosperity as to enable it to take an equal or superior place in the councils of the Colony, the question would have solved itself. The South Island Land Fund would be gone, and the North Island in her prosperity would have no inducement to use her power for unlawful plunder of what little might remain. That was the true security for the compact of 1856. He appealed to the House to give an unmistakeable verdict on. the issue which had been placed before it as a policy to which the Government intended to adhere. He would vote for the resolutions. (Applause.) Mr. HUNTER had hoped that the discussion would have been confined to a few of the leading members of the House. He took a totally different view of the case from the last speaker, whose experience of the Colony had not been so large asfcthat of some other hon. members. Mr. CUTHBERTSON : I have been in the Colony for fourteen years. Mr. HUNTER said he had been here for thirty-five years. He had seen its gradual growth until it had attained its present state of great prosperity under their Provincial institutions, which lie thought had been managed ably and with advantage to the country. If they looked over the length and breadth of the land, from north to south and from east to west, they would everywhere see in the works that were in progress the evidences of the activity and ability of the Provincial authorities. Looking at the present state of high prosperity, he was willing that credit should be given where credit was due, It was only within the last four or five years that that prosperity had begun to show itself. It was only, in fact, since Mr. Vogel had taken office that prosperity commenced. Before that, the General Government was only a tax-gathering institution. The chief results of their effort to govern had been those unfortunate complications with the Natives, which had led to such an enormous expenditure of money to no purpose. He had always attributed that to the General Government; and they were now paying interest upon a most wasteful expenditure of money from which they had reaped no good whatever. There was a great contrast between the two styles. of expenditure. The one produced those pleasing evidences of prosperity which they saw around them; the other had all but brought about the ruin of the country. The glory attached to the former should be credited to the men to whom it was due. He was very sorry to see how much feeling had been introduced into the conduct of public matters. He regretted that the hon. members the Premier and the Superintendent of Wellington should entertain the feelings towards each other that they had shown. One and all should lay aside such strong feelings of personal animosity. There was no stronger supporter of tho Premier in the House than himself; but he had known Mr. Fitzherbert from the beginning of his Colonial career, and knew that in all the public positions in which he had been placed he had done his best, both for the Province of Wellington and the Colony of New Zealand. It was unfortunate that reference had been made to this project of dissolving the Northern Provinces. There was nothing to show that it had been a part, of the Premier's plan when Parliament met. It would have been better if it had been considered calmly and dispassionately by the Premier, in place of being introduced hastily and impulsively. The Premier, of course, was entitled to tako his own mode of bringing up the question ; but that right should not have been exercised. There was no reference to the subject in the speech with which the business of Parliament had been opened. There was no reference to it in the Financial Statement. It was only when the hon. member for the Hutt had spoken in somewhat strong terms of one of the hon. gentleman's proposals that he had arrived at a hasty resolution to bring this subject before tho House ; but oven then it was accompanied by a declaration that it was notprobable that the resolutions would be brought on this session. Yet within forty-eight hours afterwards they had the resolutions tabled. These facta indicated doubt and uncertainty on the part of the Government as to tho propriety of the resolutions. The proposal was divided into three parts, but the whole thing concentrated itself into this, that it was intended to abolish the Provinces of the North Island. It ■was asserted that the country was in favor of the views of the Government. He donied that the country would bo found to vote for it. Tho subject was not new. It was not the first time it had been under review ; but it had never beforobeen proposed either, in tho House or to the country, that the Provinces in one island should be abolished, and those in tho other left intact. Ho had given tho whole subject much consideration —not now morely, but for years past—and he made bold to say that when the Premier's proposals went before

the country and the people they would not be found to support the Government. The very reverse would be the case. The people had confidence in the Constitution under which they lived, and under which they were prospering. The resolution referring to the declaration of Wellington as the capital of New Zealand might very well have been left out. The resolutions reminded him of some that were proposed some sessions ago by the hon. member for Timaru. There were several of them, but the essence of the'whole matter was contained in the last -of them," and nothing came of them ; but he supposed this was intended as a bait for the voteß of the representatives of the Province of Wellington. The question of the capital was one which might very well be left by itself. It had always been thought that the capital should be on the shores of" Port Nicholson. Long ago the late Mr. Edward Gibbon Wakefield had indicated in a letter to his brother that- his opinion was that Wellington should be the capital. All the old settlers always entertained that opinion. _ The House wastheproper place in which to decide the site of the capital ; but if this House, or the House which succeeded it, were to adopt the resolution proposed on that subject, it wo ild not be of the slightest avail, because they could not bind their successors. As to that which referred to the land compact of 1856, he would be sorry to take part, in any action which •• had for its object to break that bargain. It had existed for nearly twenty years, and it was not now for the Northern members to show any desire to take advantage of any opportunity to break that compact. These questions would right themselves. In due time the North Island would be as prosperous as the South Island now was, and if the North had been placed by the accident of- circumstances under obligations to the South, they would yet be able to repay them. There was no analogy between the circumstances of New Zealand and those of Victoria or. New South Wales. In each of those Colonies there was one recognised capital, one centre, one port. Here there were nine capitals, nine centres, and nine harbors. Honorable members would remember a work called " The Six Colonies of New Zealand." It would be impossible to find stronger arguments in favor of Provincial institutions than were used at that earlyperiod—lßsl.. [The hon. member then read an extract from the work alluded to. Centralisation was opposed, because it was argued that the business of one part of the Colony two hundred miles away from the capital, and of another eight hundred miles distant, could not be properly performed from one centre. It was argued that the thing to secure was complete localisation of the Government; political independence of the one Province of the other; and to give a legislature, bound together as a Federal Government in a few particulars, but leaving all other things to be worked out by the local legislatures for themselves.]; Those arguments held good then and did so now. Those Provincial institutions had worked out the problem in the most satisfactory manner; and what had been stated in 1851 as to the probable effects of their operation had not been controverted by any hon. member who had taken part in the debate. He had a few words to" say for Wellington. It was said that it was the action of that Province that had led to the introduction of these resolutions. The Premier had stated in the course of the discussion on the State Forests Bill Mr. ANDREW rose to a point of order. Was the hon. member in order in referring to a debate on another subject in the present Parliaments ? The SPEAKER did not think that the hon. member for Wellington City was out of order. Mr. HUNTER said he was only about to explain a personal matter. He had not yet got the length of quoting from the Hansard he held in his hand. The Premier in that debate had made a personal reference to him (Mr. Hunter) as a member of the Provincial Executive of Wellington. Mr. ANDREW again rose to order. The hon. member was referring to a previous debate. The SPEAKER said the hon. member was perfectly in order. Mr. HUNTER: The hon, member (Mr. Andrew) was usually in a state of confusion between order and disorder—disorder of the mind, a mental chaos. ' He thought that when a member said a personal reference had been nettle to him, which he desired to explain, no person possessed of proper feelings would attempt to prevent him from doing so. He was spoken of in the speech to which he had referred, as a member of an Executive Council which had greatly opposed the Premier in carrying out the policy of the Colony. But Mr. Vogel had exempted him from responsibility for that course. He disclaimed that exemption. He was part and parcel of that body. If they had done wrong, he had no desire to escape from his share of the blame. If they had done good, he claimed to have his share of the credit. But it was curious that in the debate to which he had alluded, the Premier had happened to use the very same common-place remark that had been made by the hon. member for Wairarapa (Mr. Andrew) in another place. It was that he was an ornamental member. There might have been a time, a long while ago, when he might have regarded himself as somewhat ornamental, but that time had passed away long ago, and now his desire was to be regarded as a useful member. He had no wish to.be complimented at the expense ' of others. He was satisfied in thinking that he had had a share in assisting to advance the prosperity of the Province. No one more readily admitted than he did the assistance which the Province had received from the present Government, but more had been said about the indebtedness of the Province to the General Government than wa3 right. The Government, headed by Mr. Vogel, soon after entering on office, had carried a Bill to enable the Province to borrow a sum of £86,000. But under that power the Province had not required to raise more than £75,000. Shortly after that measure was passed the Province had been able to sell a block of land for £75,000, with which they paid that debt. They had raised the loan on debentures on which they at first paid seven and afterwards six and a-half per cent.; and on the interest of those debentures the General Government drew £14,000 from the Province. Their debt, in short, was in gradual process of liquidation. The Premier stated a sum of £311,000 had been expended by the General Government, but the sum really was £244,000, if stated accurately. Out of the sum raised under the Wellington Debts Act ; also, the General Government had received £25,600, Wellington was the only Province; that had repaid to the General Government the money advanced to thom. But the Premier himself had been wrong, for he said the debt had been paid ; whereas it was only in course of being paid. A balance of £5668 was still due.. Prom the sale of reclaimed land a sum of £31,000 had been paid to the General Government. The Treasury had also received £25,000 in cash. In all £156,000 had been repaid by the Province of Wellington. It was not fair altogether to refer to these matters between the two Governments as had been clone. But after all, was not the general revenue* raised in the Provinces ? In 1873 the revenue of Wellington was £125,347, and in 1874 it was £159,677 ; showing an increase of £34,331. In Auckland there had been an increase ; in Taranaki the small increase of £759; and in the Province of Hawko's Bay it had increased from £36,000 in 1873 to £52,000 in 1874, or 43 per cent. Yet Napier and Wellington, in which thorp had been so large evidences of prosperity, were to be abolished! Ho would not say that, if they were abolished the - income., of the General Government would be less; but he would say that all that had been said of the Provinces was not altogether correct. As to the South Island there had been in Otago an increase of revenue to the extent of 35 per cent. ; in Canterbury, 38 per cent. ; in Marlborough, five ; and in Nelson fifteen. The exports and imports had also shown a largo increase, Wellington alone showing an improvement to tho extent of 34 per cent., in tho imports, and seven per cent, in the exports ; in Auckland, one per cent, in the imports, and twelve per cent, in the exports. These wero tho Provinces that wero to be abolished ! He knew almost as much about Napier as he did about Wellington, having property there ; and

he believed those Provinces had done as much as any others in New Zealand for public works. Both in proportion to their means had done much to settle population on the lands, and both Provinces were capable of maintaining a dense population. The Province of Wellington, in the reply of the Superintendent to the Premier's circular, had shown that it was ready to do so. As an humble member of ■ the Executive of Wellington he had done everything in his power to assist in carrying out the policy of public works. Last year, in his financial speech, the Premier had said that the Colony could not do justice to the public works of the Colony. [The hon. member here <quoted several passages to that effect from the Hansard of last session]. The Premier then said that it was utterly impossible that the General Government could attend to all the details, which should fall upon the Provincial authorities. The whole argument was clear and sound. The Colony was in a highly-prosperous condition, arid it would be wise to let well alone. Something had been said of the effect of this proposition on the credit of the Colony. He was usually in the habit of taking rather a commercial view of things. They had just authorised a little Bill for the borrowing of four millions, and he did not think it would be found, such a difficult operation as was supposed. But this proposition to divide the Colony would not assist the negotiations for the loan. The credit of the Colony had always been good. It had always been well maintained. In no instance had there been any hesitation or difficulty in paying the interest. Their credit, therefore, had stood high. Nothing 'had done more to sustain that credit than the support the Provinces had given to the General Government; but this discussion might have a damaging effect, for it would show that a feeling of dissatisfaction with the existing form of government was present which was not to be desired. He recognised in the Premier perhaps the cleverest and ablest man in the Colony. He also recognised in the Native Minister, whose great services had lately been so properly acknowledged, one who had discharged his duties in a most able manner. In the Minister for Public Works, the House recognised the right man in the right place. (Applause.) The places of these gentlemen would, at the present time, be very difficult to fill. But still he felt that he could not support the resolutions, though he would regard it as a calamity if those men were turned out of office. The hon. member (Mr. Steward) on the previous evening had made an unfortunate illustration, in referring to the Siamese twins. Many attempts had been made to disunite them, but the twins had always had the good sense to resist those opportunities. One of them at last died, and it was then found that if au operation had been performed while they were alive, they would have died sooner than they did. It was the same.with them. It would be unfortunate if a surgical operation were performed which would destroy the life of the Provinces, and probably of both Governments. It had also been said that the North Island had been sponging on the South Island. He did not like the expression. The North had never done so. It had never asked anything which it was not fairly entitled to claim; and that claim had never been responded to in other than a most handsome manner by the South ; but that aid was not given to Provinces disposed to "sponge." The Province of Auckland had special claims on the whole Colony on account of the Natives residing there. As long as the Natives were amongst them—and it might not be for many years—that assistance ought to be accorded to Auckland. They had thought that forcible measures would be successful in overcoming the Native difficulty, but it was. not so ; and the South had been generous in the assistance it had given. He could not forget that the hon. member for Parnell was one of a little band of four or five who had protested against the Premier's policy of public works as ruinous, and against the Government then as jsroceeding unconstitutionally ; yet that hon. gentleman (Mr. Reader Wood) was now one of the supporters of the same Government, and expressed his entire belief in them, and promised to support the Premier and his party. He regretted very much the course the Government had taken. He did not think that public feeling on the subject would be found to have the strength that had been attached to it by the Premier when they went before the country. He for one would be happy to go before his constituency. He was in the midst of them. It might be that they might then find some disposition to abolish Provincial institutions altogether, but. he doubted whether the result would be as the Government anticipated, either in the North or the South. He was bold to say that if the scheme referred to were carried out, there would be an attempt sooner or later to carry out uniform legislation. What . was good for the North must also be good for the South. For himself, he would be the very last even to hint at a wish to appropriate the land fund of the South Island. He would be very much mistaken if, when a division was taken, a majority of the members for the North Island would be found in favor of the resolutions. He was elected to support the policy of public works and the Premier, and would have been happy if he could have done so now, but he could not do so in accordance with his feeling of duty to the country. (Applause.) As to his constituency, he was at hand, and ready to justify himself to them. He had thought the whole subject over carefully, and he had comedo the conclusion that he would not be doing justice to them or the Colony if he supported the resolutions. Mr. WEBB said lie came to the House a staunch supporter of Provincial institutions'; but his opinions soon changed, and he was now convinced that in the interests of the Colony the abolition of the North Island Provinces was necessary. He complained that the various speakers had not sufficiently looked at tho matter from a Colonial point of view. There was no cause for supposing 'that the abolition of the North Island Provinces necessarily meant the abolition of the South Island Provinces. The cases of the two islands were widely different. So long as the great Provinces of the Middle Island did their work, well, there would be no necessity for abolishing them. When-the time came he would be prepared to vote for their abolition. The member for Akaroa had told the House of the, feeling' in Canterbury against the proposal of the Government. He (Mr. Webb) had been informed by a gentleman who came up "from the Province by the last steamer that there Was very little excitement there, and when the people there came to understand the resolutions, thoroughlythey would agree with -them perfectly. He would support the resolutions. . Mr. SWANSON dwelt at considerable length on the utility of the Provinces both as nurseries of politicians and the initiators of useful legislation. It would bo well if half the legislation of tho Assembly were relegated, as it might easily be, to the Provincial Councils. Another system would not produce better men than the Provincial Superintendents and Executives, while it would be quite as open to temptation and corruption. Local self-govern-ment meant local taxation, special taxes for the sick and poor, for the destitute, and for the widow and the orphan, for gaol and police matters. ; That would be the result to a dead certainty, and he was perfectly satisfied the South would never consent to the general revenue being spent on those things. The South would not support the police and gaols of the North as well as their own; and they would be mad if they did. The acts of the General Assembly in declaring war and sowing enmity between the two races had destroyed Auckland; the Province had been twitted with its wretchodness as if it were a crime, while the fact was that the Provinces had had their hands tied. The people would have a chance of making their voices heard on this question, and they would do so without any mistake (loud Opposition cheers.) Whether the resolutions were carried or not they would have to go to tho country before any law was passed. An election must take place, and if they could not repeal a Bill they could prevent it from passing. Ho believed the key to the whole thing was the want; of cash. Financial difficulties were a-head, and if the' land fund was not to be got hold of during the reign of the present

Government, income and property taxes and a tax on wool, or any other tax that would not press on the people, must be resorted to. It would not he long before the thin edge of the wedge wouldalso be driven into the Southern Provinces. Then any compacts would go up the chimney in smoke. (Laughter.) It was the duty of the House to nourish Provincial institutions while they were of use, and not to endeavor to disfranchise Provinces like Auckland. (Cheers.) Mr. BRYCE contended that the outlying districts were dissatisfied with Provincialism when the Provinces could not be carried on without charitable aid ; and they could not come to any other conclusion than that the experiment had failed. The abolition of the Provinces of the South must follow those of the North —not so long as they managed their affairs well—but he believed their Administration would compare unfavorably with the simpler form of administration. Whatever might be the wishes of the General Government they would have been compelled sooner or later to localise the revenues. The time would come when all the trunk roads would be managed by local bodies, subject to the supervision of the Central Government, which, however, would only require to be exercised in very exceptional cases. So far from the abolition of Provinces increasing the work of Parliament, the reverse would be the case, because he believed a great deal of the present legislation of the House was made for it by the Provinces. Mr. WHITE did not attach so much importance to the resolutions as some hon. members did, because he felt certain that no practical results could come from them, and if anything did come of the resolutions, this Parliament could never give effect to them. He had been as strong an ultra-Provincialist as any member of the House ; but his experience in it showed him that it was absolutely necessary to have not only local Government, but also local legislative power. The system of Government by agents was odious, even if the ablest, best, and most honest men could be got as Government Agents—he would vote against it.. They should have over the people persons responsible to the people whom they governed. The gentlemen who would be appointed would not-be honest and high-minded men, but those who could use back-stairs influence most effectually ; those who would sacrifice their country in order to keep in with the Government in power. He warned the Premier to take care to supply some other form of Government than that proposed. If the hon. gentleman intended to send a Government Agent to the AYest Coast he would advise him to send along with that official a squad of Armed Constabulary. (Laughter.) Hon. gentlemen might laugh, but for his own part he should resist to any extent this form of Government. He looked upon the resolutions as an attempt to invade the rights of the people and an attack upon popular Government. Mr. REEVES had to make a personal explanation. He understood the member for Totara had made against him the contemptible charge that he (Mr. Reeves) was influenced by the fact that he was a contractor under the,,Provincial Government of Canterbury. He understood the hon. gentleman just then, when the fact was mentioned, to say he did not say so. He was sorry the hon. gentleman was not in his place to explain himself. He (Mr. Beeves) would not have risen, but that in this morning's journal, the statement was produced very circumstantially, with his name, and not as the member for the district. He stated his firni had no contract, and had had none with the Provincial Government for the last two or three years. In consequence of these miserable charges being made, he absolutely directed his firm not even to tender for the Government printing. He hoped the reporters of the morning journal were in their places, and would state his explanation as circumstantially as they had stated the other part of the case yesterday. (Applause.) j Mr. T. KELLY said the question was narrowed to this—were the North Island Provinces able to carry on their functions, and he said the answer was unmistakably in the negative. It would be time enough next session to answer the question what form of government .should be substituted for the Provinces. Mr. HARRISON would simply explain his reasons for voting for the previous question. He did so upon general grounds ; first, on the ground that the country was taken by surprise; and secondly, that the circumstances surrounding the manner in which the resolutions were brought forward showed that there had not been given to them the calm deliberation that should be given to anything in the direction of altering the Constitution which had raised the Colony to its present position. He referred to the experience of Westland as a county as being against the establishment of counties, which was the form of government proposed by the Government. He had listened to all the speeches, but hail heard nothing on the part of the Government or in favor of the resolutions to alter his opinion that it was inconvenient to consider them at the present time. He objected to them because' they did not go far enough. Had the Premier come down boldly with the proposal to abolish Provincialism throughout the Colony he would have gone with him. Nelson and Westland did not differ in the slightest degree from the Provinces of the North Island. He should be sorry to see Provincial institutions swept away until they saw some well-devised and carefully prepared scheme showing what.was to take their place. Major JACKSON intended to vote for the resolutions because he considered them best for the Colony in general and the North Island in particular. If the Bill were carried to-morrow it would not affect his district, because it was now already completely under the control of the General Government, which subsidised their Road Boards, maintained their institutions, and paid their police to the general satisfaction of the settlers. He doubted if they would be so well off under the Provincial Government. The Government by bringing down | the resolutions had adopted a safe and effectual way of eliciting public opinion. Because he voted for the resolutions he was not bound to vote for the Bill, tmless its provisions were what he considered to be right. Por the present they were merely asked to affirm the principle that the time had come when Provincialism in the North Island should be abolished. Mr. RICHARDSON had no intention to review the whole of the speeches made on the subject, but before making any general remarks upon the question would review a few of them, and respond to the challenge thrown out by the member for Selwyn. That hon. ;member having had a seat on the Government benches must be pretty well aware whence the opposition to the Public Works policy came, and what the nature of that opposition was. He failed to see what change there was at the present time from then. It was in this direction that the General Government had met with the opposition alluded to by the Premier in moving the resolutions, which t compelled the Government in almost every move they made to ponder over the manner in which it would be received and. met bjr the Provincial party, and the various Superintendents with whom they had to deal. He was not going to Hansardise anybody, but on looking up some papers ho remembered seeing the member for Port Chalmers, then a strong supporter of the Government, expressing himself in 1872 to the effect that he believed the real cause of the great public works, scheme being in the hands of a central administration had been the action of the Superintendents of Canterbury, Auckland, and Nelson, who above all others it might have been supposed would have appreciated the importance of Provincial administration. The next speech he would refer to was that of the member for Nelson, and it was owing to a remark by the member for Rodney that he thought of alluding to it. That hon. member, long before he (Mr. Richardson) took much interest m politics, was one of the staunehest opponents of the Provinces. On his first election, when he went before the electors, he addressed them in these words : " Gentlemen, you know what my feelings are on the question of Provincial institutions. The safest course for you to preserve them is to. elect me, and if you elect me I will muzzle them." (Laughter.) The other speeches he would allude to were those of the members for Waikouaiti, Taieri, Port Chalmers, Rodney and Auckland City West (Mr. Wil-

liamson). He would take that of the member for Waikouaiti first. His (Mr. Richardson's) idea when the hon. member made hfe speech. was, that it reminded him very forcibly of a speech he had listened to in the House in 1872 from the member for the Taieri; and it produced exactly the same impression on him—either that the hon member was innocent of the figures he was dealing with, or else, not with the wilful intention of misleading the House, he was using the figures in a curious way. The hon. member went on to argue, as did all the hon. gentlemen he had alluded to, that the administration of the Provinces was much better and cheaper than the General Government. The only member who had introduced figures into the question in anything like detail was the member for Waikouaiti, but he was at a loss to know where he got some of them from. That hon. member stated, to begin with, that the General Government spent last year on the Province of Otago £106,000, to which was to be added supervision, and he held up the amount for hon. members to draw their own conclusions as to what tie cost of supervision was. He understoood him to say that the Province had spent, or was going to spend, about .-£547,000 on their own account, and £47,000 additional, on General Government account, while the yearly cost for staff was £3900. The question had been raised by the member for Invercargill whether that money had been really spent, or was it to be spent in perspective. (Mr. Gillies :It was voted for this year.) If that was the cost of the staff, he did not place much reliance upon it. It did not follow that because the money was voted it was going to be spent. If the money was going to be spent, a much larger staff was wanted, to look after the expenditure. (Hear.) He might just as well say the General Government was going to spend £2,065,000, for that was the amount voted to be spent in Otago. Por the staff last year, during which time £230,000 . was spent, in addition tq»iaterial imported, £s9oo—(hear) —was voted, and of that sum a trifle under £SOOO was absolutely spent. (Applause.) This year the Government anticipated to spend a great deal more —they believed nearly double, in the Province ; and they had taken a vote for a much larger staff, but the appointments had not been made, and probably would not be made. (Mr. Gillies: "Oh."; The hon. member might say " Oh," but he (Mr. Richardson) only hoped he might be able to make the appointments and get good officers. If he remained in office he would make the appointmenti?, because in the interests of the Colony they should be made. Of course, in dealing with such votes in anticipation it was impossible to compare them closely, but if the House took the- total expenditure on the railways from the time when real work began up to June 30, 1874, the total amount spent was £40,000 short of two millions, and the expenditure on supervision and office expenses in carrying out those works did not quite come up to 2| per cent. (Hear.) He did not think it was at all worth while to bring up these questions of comparisons of the actual cost of the works, and the questions of supervision as between the General and Provincial Governments. It was not part of his business to pry into the business of Provincial Governments. It was, however, members' duty to see that the General Government carried out their work. But in his travelling he came across things which, he could not help saying, did not bear out what the member for Waikouaiti said. He should be sorry to say a word against the i gentleman at the head of the Provincial ' Engineers' Department in Otago, whom he knew by experience to be an uncommonly good surveyor and as hard working a man >as there could be—(Mr. Macandrew : Only he has a bad temper)—but he had ten times more work to attend to than the Province could expect to have properly -done. He said this literally. They knew as a fact that that officer could not in many directions get near his work for weeks, and it was therefore impossible the attention that shouldbegiventothem there could be. He would not pick out any instances. Themembers forßodneyand Auckland City West spoke strongly about squandering on roads to the North of Auckland—the firstnamed gentleman speaking of a sum of £40,000, and the other of a sum of £60,000. There was no foundation whatever for the assertion. What were the facts 1 Up to the present time—and up to the end of June, 1874, were the figures he had to deal with—there had been spent, and liabilities incurred in relation to roads in the North of Auckland, £42,800; but of that sum there had been actually spent there only £35,000. The Province itself had spent a trifle over £IO,OOO, leaving £25,000 spent by the Colony. For that —let the works be what they might—they had 36 bridges with spans of 30 feet arid over 100 feet long, and also 23 bridges ot smaller size, and the works ran over an extent of road line, more or less surveyed, of 469 miles. (Hear.) The £25,000 might be thrown. away—suppose it was—but there was something to show for it ; but he questioned if any of it had been squandered. He would go further, and say if the hon. members before they left Auckland saw the money being squandered before their eyes it was their bounden duty to have brought a charge against the Government, and he (Mr. Richardson) would have assisted them before the Immigration and Public Works Committee. The question of administration as between the two Governments need hot have been dwelt upon so much, because it was capable of being overproved. He was much inclined to adopt; the line of argument used by the member for Bruce when he said the General Government could get quite as much for £1 as the Provincial Governments did. He (Mr. Richardson) thought it quite possible that the General Government with the staff they were able to get and the funds at their disposal, and their large works, should be ablo in the main to get a little more. Referring to the general question, he said the people required a simpler form .ol Government, but he entirely dissented from the idea that the resolutions affected the South island. Those who voted for the resolutions were bound to vote for the second reading of the Bill, but not further, if they did not approve of it. He could see no reason why there should be the slightest hesitation in voting for the resolutions as they stood. Mr. J. E. BROWN moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried, and at 12.5 a.m. the House adjourned.