HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4182, 15 August 1874, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, August 1-1. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. ELECTION FOR WAITEMATA. The SPEAKER, informed the House that he had received a petition from an elector of Waitemata complain jug that Mr. ,Von der Heyde had not been duly elected for that district, and that Mr. J. S. Macfarlane had been duly elected. It would be necessary that ' proceedings should be taken in the usual manner. Mr. Von der Heyde would, of \ .course, have access to the petition. The petitioner should have one .member to be upon the Committee, and the sitting member ' another. He (the Speaker) would nominate a member to be Chairman, and on Tuesday the nomination of the Committee would be the first business on the paper. PETITIONS. Mr. Williams presented a petition with reference to sales of land in Monganui district ; Mr. Pearce, a petition from certain immigrants praying the House to give their case consideration, they desiring to be relieved from their responsibility on promissory notes for the balance of their passage money; Mr. Sheehan, from Natives of the Province of Auckland complaining that possession of an island had been taken without payment; . Mr. Fitzhebbekt, and Mr. Seymour, on , matters relating to land sales. ' QUESTIONS AND MOTIONS. , Mr. Taiaroa gave notice of a motion as to certain Maori claims, which he will ask on , Tuesday. Mr. Williams gav# notice of a question as to extension of the telegraph system in the northern portion of the North Island. BILLS. . At the instance of Mr. Richardson, the notices of motion given by Mr. Reynolds, for leave to bring in a Bill to increase the Excise duties, and the Wanganui Foreshore Grant Bill, were postponed till Tuesday next. The second reading of the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill was postponed till Wednesday. REPORTS. Mr. Curtis brought up the report of the Goldfielda Committee, recommending that the Goldfields Bill be committed on Tuesday; Mr. T. Kelly a variety of reports, the tenor of which could not be'heard in the gallery; and Mr. Murray a report from the Colonial Industries Committee. DI'IULI-ATION. Mr. VOGEL observed that he had some difficulty in understanding what the Committee that had been appointed to consider the subject of distillation in connection with the proposal of the Government to increase the Excise duties really desired by the report they had brought up. It was admitted that the Government had the right to propose an increase of duties, it was thought that it might be proper to stop distillation altogether; and if distillation was Btopped altogether, that compensation perhaps was due to the firms engaged in distillation. The Government thought it was desirable that there should bo an increase in the Excise duties in the manner they had proposed to the House, and that it would not be proper at once to equalise the duties, without compensation being given; but that if it was so so resolved, it might be possible to make satisfactory arrangements with those who were now engaged in distillation. He at the same time saw no objection to placing a restriction on the power of distillation, rather than abolishing it altogether. In the arrangement they had made with the distillers they had endeavored to meet as far as possible the desire the Committee had expressed. It was, he thought, one which was equitable and would be considered satisfactory. It was as follows, but it was entirely for the House to say whether it should bo carried out or not, for their would be no breach of faith committed with any one if it were not agreed to. It was by an oversight that on the previous evening the order of the day for the second reading of the Excise Duties Bill had been discharged from the paper; and if the House should resolve to increase the duties, as had been proposed, and as it was entitled to do, steps would be taken to bring up the Bill again. They had also the right, however, to equalise the duties, and abolish distillation altogether. At present there were two distilleries at work. It was proposed to pay £20,000 to the company at work at Dunedin, tho amount to bo taken out of the proceeds of the Excise duties on spirits. They were to have the right to distil 70,000 gallons of spirits between the 1 st of July last and the end of June next. After tho latter date, they would have no right to distiL. They would, in fact, have the power to use up their stock to tho extent of 70,000 gallons. As to Auckland, it was proposed to allow that company compensation to the extent of £7500, and

to permit them to carry on distillation to a certain extent, to use up tho materials on hand. It was proposed to put an end to the differential duties, and the arrangement, therefore, would yield a profit to the revenue. The loss to the revenue, if distillation proceeded, would be lan»e ; but by the arrangement entered into, they would know their exact loss, and its amount would be recouped by the savings in a couple of years. It would not be right to ask leave to introduce a Bill to give effect to the arrangement he had described until it had been printed and circulated amongst members ; and, therefore, he would not press it on. If it fell through, the House had the right to proceed with the increase of the Excise duties, as had been proposed, and the House had the right to increase these duties without considering the question of compensation at all. The subject would again be discussed when they went into Committee of Ways and Means.' MANAWATU-RANGITIKEI CLAIMS. The House then went into Committee to consider the Report of the Speaker of the House of Representatives on these claims. Mr. FITZHERBERT, in submitting the claims of the Province in connection with the purchase of the Manawatu-Rangitkei blocks said he should not raise the question on its merits. The time for that had passed. An award had been made after an arbitration, and he desired that the award should be carried out. The Premier had not put the matter fairly before the House when he said it was simply a Bill to enable the Province of Wellington to borrow another £15,000. After an award had been given, it was too late to withdraw the subject of the award from arbitration. He asked the House to give effect to the recommendation contained in the report of the Speaker on the claims of Wellington in connection with the Manawatu claim. Mr. VOGEL explained the circumstances of this case at considerable length. In the first place the arbitration 'spoken of was not an arbitration at all. The report of the Speaker was outside the power conferred upon the arbitrator in the Act on the subject of these claims. He held that the Province was not entitled to any compensation. The Province never would have had possession of the reserves referred to but for the friendly action of Sir Donald McLean. In this matter, indeed, the Province not only put forward an unreasonable claim, but had been singularly ungrateful.. The Government thought the Speaker had been mistaken in the course he had taken. He should have confined himself to the terms of the Act in his award, but he might say, without disrespect to the Speaker, that he had gone beyond those terms. Going beyond those terms the Speaker thought that Wellington was entitled to some compensation, and the Superintendent of the Province was quite willing to adopt that opinion, but the Government asked the Housenot to agree with that opinion. He admitted that if the claim of the Province to compensation had previously escaped the notice of the Superintendent, he was not prohibited from considering it afterwards ; but he held that if ever there had been a claim it had been entirely wiped out. Sir Donald McLean had succeeded in settling the difficulties that had arisen through the purchase, at a considerable sacrifice of time and trouble ; the Province had no claim up to'the time of that interference, and none since, through the interest the Native Minister had taken in the a'ffairs of the Province. The General Government, indeed, had run a great deal of risk in the matter for the benefit of the Province. It was always understood that the purchase of the Manawatu Block was made at the risk of the Provincial Government, and not of the General Government. It was not the intention of the Fox Government to make the purchase a Colonial matter, or a Colonial liability. The Speaker himself admitted that he had no right to go into that question at all. The Speaker thought that Mr. Gisbome had been premature in declaring the Native title extinguished, and therefore that payment should be made of the interest paid on the purchase money of the block from the time of that declaration until the Native title was really extinguished. But it was not tobe forgotten that it was only through great pressure having been brought on Mr. Gisbome by the Province that he took the course which the Speaker thinks was premature. If premature, it was at least done to oblige the Province, and at their instance. The money had been paid before Mr. Gisborne's action, and the interest on the purchase money .was accruing, whether he declared the Native title extinguished or not. This claim was nothing more than one for power to the Province to borrow another £15,000, which the Provincial Council might appropriate in any way it pleased. It was asked that the money should be taken out of the fund set apart for the purchase of lands in the North Island, and he objected to take such a sum from that fund to pay back to the Province of Wellington the interest it had paid on the purchase-money. If it was to be given at all, it should not be as a free gift, but as a loan to the Province. The case was not at all similar to that which had occurred in Auckland. The latter Province had paid the principal and interest of the price of land which it never obtained. In this case the House was asked to recoup the Province of Wellington interest on the price of land purchased with the distinct understanding that no responsibility should fall upon the Colonial Government in connection with it. Auckland did not get the land ; and if Wellington did not get all it desired, for there were still disputes to settle, still Wellington got more than would pay principal and interest over and over again. Besides that, a sum of £75,000 had been raised on the security of part only of the land so obtained. If it was necessary to make a further k>an for the Province of Wellington, do so, but do not mix it up with this matter. That loan of £75,000 had satisfied every claim upon the Province. Any claim the Province had upon the General Government had been satisfied over and over again, and he asked how often they were to repeat an operation of this kind ? He did not wish, however, to take up any strong position in the matter. If the House thought that another loan should be given to the Province of Wellington let it be given in addition to the £66,000 which it was proposed in the Immigration and Public Works Loan Bill the Province should be allowed to borrow, but to do not let it be mixed up with the Native Land Purchase Fund. The House was already in possession of the proposals of the Government for loans to the Provinces, and he was of opinion that in these the Government had gone as far as they ought to go. He reminded the House that the Speaker—who had been asked to make inquiries into this claim, not as the Speaker, but as the member for Mataura—had not made an award, but only an expression of opinion. (Sir F. D. Bell: Hear, hear.) Sir F. D. BELL explained his connection with tho matter at some length. It was not for him, he remarked, to argue the matter from his point of view. He conceded to the Government that it was their right and their duty to refuse to carry out an arrangement which they did not think to be proper. His hon. friend at tho head of the Government would understand that he did not in tho slightest degree complain of the course he had taken. He desired to remind the House, however, that when tho matter was before them last session, ho was asked by the hon. member for tho Hutt to undertake the duty of inquiring into the whole subject. He knew at the time that the matter had been so often investigated, and with results bo unsatisfactory, that whatever ho did ho would bo landed in tho same difficulty. He was asked to make a recommendation. If at that time it had been said to him that the inquiry was to be limited, ho would not havo engaged in it, but ho would appeal to the hon. member for tho Hutt and to Sir Donald McLean to say whether they had not both urged him to deal with the matter as one of equity and of'good conscience. If it had then been intimated to him that ho was to bo restricted to tho one point of compensation, he would have refused to undertake the work. Towards tho end of tho last session both the Superintendent and the Native Minister knew that his opinion was that the claim for compensation had failed, and that he had intimated to tho House that in his opinion no claim for compensation could be sustained, though ho was of opinion that interest 1 should bo paid. It was then made the subject

of a resolution of the House, on the motion of the Superintendent, that if the Speaker should make an award during the recess in favor of the Province the Government should be empowered to pay the amount of it, the money to be taken out of the money to be given to the Province of Wellington for the purchase of Native lands, the House assuring the Government that in the following session they would make provision for the amount. If, after all this, he had thought that the Government would put words into the Act on the subject to restrict.lns action, he would have at once retired from the matter altogether. When the Premier considered all those circumstances he would, he (Sir F. D. Bell) thought, admit that it was hardly fa,ir to him to introduce those words into the Act. When he had completed his inquiry, and was about to make an award, he looked into the Act to see exactly what was required of him, and it was only then that he found the clause which prohibited him from making an award. His attention had not been called to it befor Having the resolution of the House before him, and thinking that he was bound to act upon it, he did not look into the terms of the clause proposed by the Government. He must still think that the House intended that he should make an award. He ought to have been informed of the views of the Government at the time. The other part of the subject which he desired to bring before the House was, that on the motion of the Government it was agreed that the money should come out of the money set aside for Wellington for the purchase of Native lands, should he make an award, and it was therefore not unreasonable for him to take the view he had done as to what was expected of him. The whole story of the purchase showed that both the General Government and the Provincial Government were wrong in the course they had taken with regard to the purchase of the Manawatu-Rangitikei block. The claims of the Natives had not been extinguished when the purchase was made. Both Governments afterwards took the best means they could to get out of the difficulty. If he had taken a mistaken view of his duty in the matter, his action was not open to the objection that he had not fully inquired into the whole subject. Mr. FITZHERBERT entirely joined issue with the Premier on his every point of objection to the award. Repudiating the recommendation of the referee, and quoting from the words of the act of reference, would be the action of a pettyfogging lawyer. He did not affirm so, but he thought it was open to the conclusion that, after the House became acquainted with the nature and large scope of the reference, and the Government were themselves acquainted with it, instructions were given to the Law Officer of the Government to draw out a Bill that would render the award nugatory. Prior to the Bill being brought forward, the case was virtually closed. The speech of the Premier was another proof of his disinclination to grant payment of the just debts of the Colony to the unfortunate and persecuted Province of Wellington. It would be exceedingly easy for him to enter into an argument which, according to his view, would utterly contradict the view taken by the head of the Government with respect to his criticism on the recommendation made in the Speaker's report. He would go further, and say that tlie Speaker had given against the Province its claim for compensation with respect to certain portion of the thousand acres. He entirely differed from that, and could give arguments to his mind of the most convincing character. But he would not do so, because he thought the matter had gone beyond that stage. He had determined to abide ■willingly and loyally by any award that might be made. He would not be tempted to going into an argument with regard to the merits of the claim, not because he had not plenty to say, but simply because he thought the time had altogether passed for renewing such a discussion. None could speak on this question more impartially than himself. He neither belonged to the Provincial Government nor to the General Government when these disputes arose. The hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, the Native Minister, the member for Rangitikei, and Sir Francis, were all more or less mixed up with them. When called upon to assume office as Superintendent of Wellington his mind was left in an entirely neutral state as to these claims, and he declined absolutely to take up the case until he had the papers brought forward, and looked upon them in as impartial and indifferent spirit as he %vould have done had any abstract case come before him. Then he felt it to be his duty in justice to the Province to bring under the consideration of the House what he would call an equitable right. He admitted that technically and in a court of law the Province would not have a leg to stand upon : but the House was a tribunal which would take into consideration the equity of the claim, and, as shown by the Speaker, there ought not to be a single objection raised to payment. Indeed, it ought to have been paid during the recess. Mr. VOGEL observed that the question was now narrowed very much. The Speaker said he would not have undertaken the award if he had known that it was the intention of the Government to confine him strictly to the terms of the reference, and he seemed to think the Government had treated him disrespectfully. The SPEAKER did not want it to be understood for a moment that he had any feeling in the matter. The Government had not only the right, but it was clearly their duty to resist the award in any manner they thought it proper to do. Mr. VOGEL asserted that this matter was one that had caused a considerable amount of trouble and inconvenience. They looked upon the claim as inadmissible, which it would have to fight out in the fullest possible manner. The award was outside the terms of the reference, and the Government protested against it. If the House decided against them they would bring down a new clause to be added to the Advances to Provinces Act, increasing the amount to be advanced to the Province. Mr. FOX was sorry to hear the member for the Hutt using such remarks as the action of the Government resembling that of a pettifogging lawyer, and that the Government had instructed their law officer to frame an Act in such a manner as to enable them to evade the payment of any compensation that might be given against them. He would have treated such remarks, if they had come from another quarter, with all the contempt the forms of the House permitted. He could not do the hon. member, who had himself filled the highest offices in the Colony, the injustice to suppose that he believed any Government would be guilty of such acts. No colleagues of his (Mr. Fox) had done anything to lead him to believe that at any time they would be guilty of so base an act. Mr. FITZHERBERT could not understand what had called forth this burst of virtuous indignation from the member for Rangitikei. He did not say such things were done, but that the action of the Government was open to the imputation referred to, and he repeated that assertion. Mr. FOX said the matter had been put with more or less of the adroitness which the member for the Hutt was capable of using; he had not made a direct charge but an insinuation, the effect of which could not have been misunderstood. He regretted that the member for the Hutt should have allowed himself, from too much excitement of temper, to make such imputations as he had done. Referring to the award, he pointed out that the arbitrator had admittedly gone beyond the order of reference. He was desirous of seeing justice done to the Province, but not by doing injustice to the Colony. He would show to the House that the claim was no claim in good conscience, and was not equitable in that sense of the term. It was disingenuously put forward, and if made by a private individual would have been discreditable to him. The claim of the Province to any consideration was limited to a very much smaller amount than that which had been suggested by tho award. He was obliged to carry the House back to tho inception of the purchase of tho Manawatu block. In 1861, Dr. Featherston, at his own very urgent request, he then being Superintendent of Wellington, was appointed Land Commissioner under the General Government, in ordor to negotiate the purchase of tho block which was at that time, giving riso to serious disputes between the tribes of Natives who claimed ownership.

By the Native Lands Act of 1862, special exception was made of the Manawatu block, and some other blocks under negotiation at the time. The negotiations were continued up to the years 1866 or 1867, when they were so far advanced that Dr. Featherston ventured to pay the purchase money to the members of the Wo tribes who had agreed to sell him the block. But in addition to those who sold there were interested in it a small number of Natives who refused to sell, and received no share of the purchase money. . In consequence, it became necessary to take the case into the Native Lands Court, for the purpose of deciding the titles of the Natives who refused to sell. That fact was ascertained' after two long sittings of the Court. Up to that year the General Government was in no way responsible for any delay that had occurred in the acquisition of the district. . In 1869 the Court limited the ownership of the refusing Natives to about 6000 acres. Dr. Featherston, as Superintendent of the Province, called upon the General Government for. possession of the land, and the Government by the document to which Mr. Gisborne's name was appended nominally handed it over to the Provincial Government as Provincial lands. As a matter of fact, it was absolutely necessary before any progress could be made towards occupation of the lands to reserve the 6000 acres awarded to the non-sellers. That function was put into the hands of Dr. Featherston and Mr. Buller, but the General Government could not be considered responsible for that. Delays occurred through the Natives resisting the execution of surveys, and the matter was hung up for a period of eighteen months. The Native Minister, at the earnest solicitation of the Provincial Government, undertook, if possible, to satisfy the non-selling Natives. He went up to the district, and without great difficulty or great stretch of liberality induced the Natives to acquiesce in the decisions of the Court, handing over to the Natives the reserves made by the Court, which he increased by 2000 acres. From that period he (Mr. Pox) could see no indications of delay or any action on the part of the General Government for which they could be held responsible as having kept the Province out of possession of the land. Nor was there up to the time that these reserves were made any other dispute between the General and Provincial Governments than that relating to the additional quantity of land given to the Natives, the loss of which, the Province urged, should be borne by the Colonial Government. The only period during which compensation could possibly be claimed for delay was between the time of the proclamation by Mr. Gisbome declaring the land to have been handed over to the Province and the Province being put into possession of the land. That might amount to £IOOO. There might also be a small sum due for surveys, which the arbitration had not taken into consideration. But there were no grounds for any other claim. How did the matter stands. The Manawatu Block contained about 240,000 acres, subject to the award of' the Land Court, and the special reserves which Dr. Featherstonmade; the quantity that came to the Province was 230,000 acres. Fi-om that j quantity would have to be deducted the 6000 or 8000 acres more, awarded by the Native Minister to the dissenting Natives, and the result of all this trouble, of many years negotiation, the personal labors of the Native Minister, and even risk to the General Government, was that the Province got possession of 220,000 acre 3 of the finest land in the Colony out of 240,000 acres, and of which they had already sold £IOO,OOO worth, as was stated in a petition he had presented to the House. Out of it had been carved the noble Feilding Block of 100,000 acres. Yet the Province turned round and said the Colony must give it £15,000 for its sufferings and delays. Had it been the case of a private individual he would have said it was a case of the utmost greediness and grasping avarice he knew. Having a personal cognisance of all matters connected with the subject, he had endeavored to state it to the House on its real bearings. If the claim of the Province was to be satisfied, he suggested that the Manawatu-Kangitikei district, which had been a splendid nest-egg for the Province for the last two or three years, and which had been badly treated, should have <3ome~small return made for the large amount of money which had been taken from it. (Hear.) The petition he had presented to the House from the residents in the Foxton and Sandon districts, alleged that the Provincial Government had received £IOO,OOO from the district, and only returned them £BOOO. If the Provincial Government would guarantee to expend the £15;000 on a railway from Foxton to Sandon, he would withdraw all opposition to the motion. Sib Cracroft Wilson, and Mr. Rolleston supported the motion. Sir D. McLEAN narrated the circumstances' of the settlement by him of the Manawatu dispute. He said that, in the first instance, when he was solicited to undertake the duty of a settlement, he declined, because he was not prepared to undertake it on account of the question being such a difficult and complicated one. The attempts of the Superintendent of Wellington did not succeed, and though afterwards he found a disposition on the part of the Natives that the matter should bo referred to him, he still declined. Then his colleagues solicited him to undertake it, but he did not hold out any sanguine hopes of being able to accomplish a settlement. He found the discontented Natives unwilling to cede the territory, and the Natives..,*ho had sold and received a considerable portion of the purchase money, acting under European advice, desired to repudiate the whole transaction: - The Province was in a greatly despondent state, and great pressure was ; brought to bear on the member for Kangitikei and the Colonial Secretary for the time, to induce, him (Sir Donald McLean) to accept the task. Having done so, ho gave unremitting attention for a period of six weeks to one of the. most disagreeable duties he had ever had in the Colony. The Natives brought to him verbal promises by the bushel, which they said had not been fulfilled ; but after much expostulation and a great amount of trouble he succeeded in inducing them to come to something like a reasonable settlement. He had no means, no money at his disposal, and was only actuated by an earnest desire to' serve the interests of the Province. He felt considerable disappointment that the Province did not even notice the difficulties he had had, nor in the least thanked him for his exertions; on the contrary, there was an attempt to make him the scapegoat of the whole transaction. The member for the Hutt came to the consideration of the question with a considerable amount of impartiality, when all the facts had been placed before him, and, from him he had received a great deal of co-operation. He was sorry the hon. member opposed the Bill to ratify the contracts. The effect of that was this, and the committee should know it: The Natives on hearing that the Provincial and General Governments were not in accord in reference to this settlement, and hearing that it was possible the award would not bo ratified, made up their minds to try to break through their obligations. ' He told them that it was utterly impossible for him to overlook public engagements entered into in broad daylight; engagements made by him would be observed, and he expected similar observance on their part. That prevented the Province from being kept out of the land for an indefinite time, and he was now very glad to see abundant settlement in that part of the country. With reference to what had been said about, the resolution in the Cabinet, he was certain that the Cabinet would not retract from any promise or anything that had been said about this transaction. It was quite true when the member for the Hutt moved* his resolution he (Mr. McLean) added a clause that the sum should be defrayed out of the land purchase money devoted to the Province of Wellington. If the 'money was to be paid at all that was the legitimate source from which it would como. He went on to argue that Dr. Featherston and the Superintendent of the Province had never claimed for anything' beyond the excessive reserves, and the first intimation the Colony received of any other extraneous claims was the intimation by Mr. Speaker. He considered that the Province should be very well satisfied with the arrangements which had.been concluded in its interest. He would be glad to find some solution of tills matter, which, while it constantly occurred, had no good influence

either inside or outside the House. He would never undertake the settlement of such a question on any terms whatever. Mr. FITZHERBERT corrected the Defence Minister by stating that he had supported the Bill of last session, referred to by him. He also alluded to the remarks of the member for Rangitikei, and observed that it ill became that gentleman to administer a rebuke to another hon. member, when he himself indulged in language stronger than that complained of. Mr. JOHNSTON regarded it as an extraordinary proposition that the Province should not receive the award, because it had made a large profit out of the land. The compact of 1856 gave authority to the North Island to purchase lands from the Natives, and sell them at a profit. Mr. ANDREW had been sorely exercised about the vote he would give in the matter, and rose to point out a view of the case which had not been noticed. It seemed to be admitted on all sides that the decision of the arbitrator was outside his reference, and to adopt such a decision would be to establish a very dangerous precedent. The claim should be brought forward separately and independently, and, if shown to be good, he would vote for it but, as it stood, unless he had something more in reference to it, he would be doing his duty properly by voting against it. Referring to Mr. Fox's argument that the money, if voted, should be spent in the Foxton district, he said that a great many years ago, Sir F. D. Bell, then being Land Commissioner in the Province, obtained cash for a quantity of land on the East Coast on the condition that roads and bridges would be formed. No roads had yet been formed, and if the. money were voted, he suggested that the House should make a condition that it should be spent on the East Coast. After some further discussion the question was put, and on a division there voted—Ayes, 29; noes, 25. The motion was consequently carried. Mr. VOGEL pointed out that the award was a mere indication of the direction in which it would have been had the Speaker been at liberty to make an award, and that the amount was based simply on accounts supplied by the Provincial Government. The amount had not been verified or checked by the other side. The course the Government were inclined to adopt would be to add the sum to the loan to the Province under the Advances to Provinces Act. Mr. FITZHERBERT objected to the proposal. Of course the Government as a Government could do what it liked ; if, after the decision that had been come to, the Government refused to take a hint, it could not be helped. PUBLIC WORKS ADVANCES. Mr. VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it gave effect to the proposals contained in the Financial Statement. It contained provision for' an advance of £40,000 to the Province of Auckland. During the recess it was so forcibly represented to the Government that the Province would not be able to carry on its ordinary services without assistance, that the Government took upon itself the responsibility of agreeing to make advances at the rate of £6OOO every three months, commencing from the Ist of July last, to be recouped out of half the proceeds of the land revenue. By this Act, it was proposed to ratify that agreement. The next provision dealt with an advance to the Province of Wellington. After considerable negotiations with the Provincial authorities, who were desirous of borrowing a considerable amount of money, the Government had agreed to grant an advance of £66,000, to be secured on various blocks of land, to the extent of 80,000 acres, which were to be thrown open, and sold upon the terms embodied in correspondence laid on the table. The Provincial Council were invited to vote this amount, and had done so in a manner which left the Government no option but to propose that £6OOO, which had been defined should be taken, not from the money authorised to be raised for public works and immigration, but from consolidated revenue. The £6OOO was payment for lunatic asylums and educational purposes, which the' Government did not think a legitimate charge upon the Immigration vote. The balance of £60,000 had been placed to the Immigration vote. Since the arrangement wasmade an appropriation had been taken by the Provincial Council under the head of " Contingent vote." The Government had taken up £15,000 of the amount proposed to be expended by the Province, arid agreed to charge it to the vote for North Island roads. That £15,000 would be expended on metalling the road by the Gorge, so that there would be £15,000 more available to the Province than had been voted by the Provincial Council. They proposed that the £15,000 —in fact, the whole amount—should be expended on works approved by the Provincial Council, under the supervision of, by agreement with, and with the approval of the Minister for Public Works. With respect to the vote of £15,000 just agreed to, it would be for the House to consider whether it should be a further loan to the Province, or whether it should be included in the amount mentioned in this Bill. It seemed to him that the remarks made by the member for Rangitikei, in the course of the debate just concluded, that if the loan were granted, the Province should be bound to expend the money for the benefit of the block—a ' suggestion that met with a general echo throughout the House—was one well worthy of consideration. It might be prudent that the amount proposed to be expended should be confined to works for the benefit of those who purchased land in the Manawatu Block. There was also provision made to dispose of the land. The next provision was to enable an advance of £4OOO to be made to Marlborough for the construction of a bridge over the Clarence River; and there was a provision to enable Nelson to expend £50,000 on public works. In the case of the latter Province, there was a Provincial Ordinance disposing of £250,000, which it was proposed the Province should borrow. The Government considered it so difficult to give £50,000 out of £250,000, that probably the proper course would be to allow the Provincial Council specially to apply that sum. Provision was made that the purposes to which the loan should be devoted should be subject to the approval of the Minister for Public Works, and expended under his supervision; or else by agreement between him and the Superintendent, and in the absence of any such specific agreement, the Provincial revenue should be charged annually at the rate of 6 per cent, on the moneys advanced. In respect to Nelson it was to be said that it had uniformly abstained from exercising its borrowing powers to the extent other Provinces had done, and therefore it had peculiar claims in asking for the consideration of the House for borrowing for public works. The next provision was for special allowances to the various Provinces, as proposed in the Financial Statement. He believed they would require these amounts for the purpose of carrying on the present system, and hon. members must be aware that, so far as the Province of Auckland was concerned, if the resolution proposed yesterday were carried, it could not be supposed that this would be a recurring charge.- It might be asked to what extent he meant such to be the case. There were certain services for each of the Provinces which the Colony had a right to insist upon being properly earned out. He was not in a position to como down with a financial statement upon the Provincial services of this island, and he could only judge of their indication by the general view he had had of the finances, which led him to suppose that, by the substitution of a systematic form, and using their own staffs throughout the country, so much saving would be made, and much better services given. There was also provision for Treasury bills, £BO,OOO, on account of the advance to be made to the Provinces out of tho Consolidated Revenue. These proposals contemplated £6OOO to Wellington, £40,000 to Auckland, £4OOO to Marlborough—altogether £50,000 out of Consolidated Revenue. _ He was not prepared to say whether the additional £15,000 to Wellington, recommended last night, should comeoutof Consolidated Revenue. Certainly ho did not think it should come out of the loan for tho purchase of land in tho North Island, when it was expended on other 1 purposes. Therefore he asked power to issue

Treasury bills for the full amount to be charged to the Consolidated Revenue. Mr. T. B. GILLIES pointed out the mode in which the advances were to be made. They seemed to be on different schemes, and on different terms to different Provinces. £40,000 was to be advanced to Auckland "on such terms and on such security as have been or may hereafter be agreed upon between the Government of the Colony and the Superintendent of the Province." This was a very large power to leave in the hands of the Government. The sum of £60,000 is about to be advanced on the security of 80,000 acres ; but a dangerous provision was attached, for it gave the Governor power to deal with that land a 3 he pleased, to sell it or do otherwise with it. As to Nelson, the money was to be lent for public works, and no security was to be taken. That was the best way of dealing with the Provinces. It was arranged, in short, that those who were facile with the Government would have good terms, and those who were not facile would not have good terms. It was also provided that the Colonial Treasurer should make terms for repayment, &c, with the Superintendents. He presumed that the Superintendent with the advice of his Executive Council was meant, but as the Bill stood the Government would be able to arrange directly with the Superintendents of Auckland, Taranaki, and Wellington, who were not bound by the advice of their Provincial Councils. Mr. GIBBS hoped the Government would adhere to the terms of the measure as submitted by the Premier. He did not see how £50,000 could be fitted into a scheme for the expenditure of £250,000; and thought the Council should be consulted. Mr. LUCKIE agreed with the hon. member for Collingwood, under the changed circumstances of the finance proposed for Nelson. Mr. J. SHEPHAKD thought that if Mr. Luckie had still been a member of the Provincial Council of Nelson, he would, not have expressed the opinion he had just done. He supported the suggestion made by Mr. Curtis. He thought the Government should append a schedule'to the Bill to set forth the works that could be carried out in Nelson. Immigrants were now landing there, and it was necessary that the public works should go on. Mr. VOGEL thought the objections taken might be considered in Committee. As to Nelson, the difficulty the Government were in was this : The Government had been asked to prescribe the works; but it was thought more desirable the Provincial Council should meet and do that. The sum was large, and it seemed to be worth the while of the Superintendent to call the Council together. However, if the Superintendent would call the Nelson members together, and. submit a schedule to the Government, it might be adopted. As to the 80,000 acres in the Province of Wellington, it was proposed to sell land in alternate blocks, under deferred payments, so as to enable people at once to settle on the land. .- Mr. LUCKIE said it had been arranged that the Nelson members should meet to-morrow morning, and they would afterwards communicate with the Government. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. IMMIGRATION AND PUBLIC WOHKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. VOGEL moved the second reading of this Bill, the objects of which he briefly explained. Amongst its provisions was one to prevent the interference of outsiders, when arrangements had been made between the Government and the Natives for the purchase of Native lands. It provided f ;r the expenditure of £60,000 on roads in the North Island, and an equivalent sum for the South Island. It contained a clause to enable the receipts from railways in the hands of the Government to be used for railway purposes. When the system was more advanced, there would be an annual appropriation proposed for railways, as was the case with the other branches of the public service. He moved the second reading of the Bill. Mr. BOLLESTON said that as the clause stood relating to leases of Native lands it gave a pre-emptive right to purchase. He thought it should be made more definite, and translated into the Native language. Sir DONALD McLEAN said there would be no objection to that course. Mr. TRIBE asked whether the charge of maintaining the road from Hokitika to Christchurch would be made a first charge on the allowances to Canterbury and Westland. Mr. SHEEHAN said the Government were doing well in obtaining leases of Native lands in the Province of Auckland. The SPEAKER said he should direct that the clause referred to should be translated into the Maori language. Mr. VOGEL, in answer to Mr. Tribe, said he desired to seethe road between Christchurch and Westland put in proper order. The importance of the road would be recognised both in Canterbury and Westland. He should wish to see the Superintendents of those two Provinces in consultation on this subject. In answer to Mr. Taiaboa, The SPEAKER said all the clauses relating to Native lands would be translated into the Native language for the information of the Native members. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. EAILWAYS BILL. In the absence of Mr. Richardson, Mr. VOGEL desired to advance this Bill a stage. Its object was to enable the Government to extend the system of railways and to carry out works already authorised. It provided a sum of £14,000 for the railway between Kaipara and Riverhead, £112,000 for the Wanganui and Manawatu line, including the convorsion of the tramway into a railway, the large traffic now being carried over the tramway showing that the conversion was desirable to be made at once. £30,000 was to be taken to extend the Wairarapa line in the direction of Manawatu. It would form a portion of the main line of .railway between Wellington and Napier, and would open up a valuable tract of bush land. which began within three miles of the present terminus of the Wairarapa line. Great difficulty was at present experienced in getting suitable timber for the railways, and the extension of this line would be important to the Department in that respect. It was also provided that the railway between the Bluff and Oriti (Winton), should be obtained by the General Government, and provision was made for the transference from the Provincial authorities of Canterbury of thoße portions of the Provincial railways which still remained in the hands of the Provincial authorities. The Bill also would enable the Government to make arrangements with the authorities of Nelson, and also for the provision of a colliery reserve at Westport. He moved the second reading of the Bill. Mr. CUTHBERTSON supported the measure, and gave a number of statistics as to the Southland railways, to show its value, arguing that it also should be taken over by the Government. After some observations from Mr. Sheehan, Mr. MURRAY said he remarked that the railways of Otago were to be paid for by the Colony with lands which were already the property of the Province. Mr. MERVYN suggested that surveys should be made in the Clyde district of Otago, to ascertain the best route for the main line. The railway works now in course of construction chiefly run along the sea-board, and opened up very little country. They were designed to meet the wants of the settled districts, but the time had come when the country Bhould be opened up. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD blamed the authorities of the Province of Otago for not encouraging the oxtension of railways to the goldfields districts there. Mr. PITZHERBERT observed that the . Bill authorised the Government to contract with the Provinces of Canterbury and Otago for the purchase of certain Provincial railways there. He approved of that policy. But it was only two or three years ago that'he endeavored to sell certain public works in the : Province of Wellington, and the Premier then covered the idea with ridicule. He was glad to Beo him thus reversing his opiaioiiL.'^SltigiSa

Mr. J. E. BROWN said the proposal to purchase railways, and the proposal to purchase such works as the hon. member for the Hutt alluded" to, were totally different things. He suggested an extension of the schedule as regarded the Canterbury railways. Mr. VOGEL, in reply, said that the great work the Government had in view, was to carry forward the great trunk main lines—from Auckland to Wellington, whether by the East or West coast had not yet been determined ; Nelson with the West Coast, and Marlborough with North Canterbury. These must first be carried out, and the branch lines, such as that from Tokomairiro to Lawrence —referred to by the hon. member for Dunstan—would then be dealt with. Already £2,065,000 had been voted for railways in Otago, out of a total sum of £5,575,000 authorised by the House. The Port Chalmers and Dunedin line had been bought, because it would form part of the main line, and it would not have been a proper thing to do to construct a rival line. The purchase had not been a, bad one, for the Government had already been offered an advance of 10 per cent, on their bargain. The branch lines should be a charge on the Land Fund, for they immensely enhanced the value of the land they traversed. The main lines of railway would of course be in the management of the General Government. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. HAItBOB WOHKS BILL. This Bill was committed, considered, amended, and reported, the report to be considered on Tuesday. THIED READINGS. The Employment of Females Act Amendment Bill, and the Wellington Burial Ground Bill, were read a third time and passed. The House then adjourned at 11.10 p.m. till 2.30 p.m. on Monday next.