New Zealand Times. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 1874.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4173, 5 August 1874, Page 2

New Zealand Times. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 5, 1874.

The adjourned debate in the House yesterday on the State Forests Bill was resumed by Mr. Mukrav, who thought there were other members of the House who deserved to share the credit of having called attention to the important subject embraced in the Bill before the House. He thought the statistics adduced were unreliable, and suggested that the Bill should be made still more comprehensive than it was, and entrusted to the Provincial Councils or the Koad Boards to carry out. There was no hurry for the Bill, for the timber in some provinces was estimated to last from 250 to 400 years. If Government supplied seeds, and encouraged the formation of private nurseries, that would be all that would be required to ensure a supply of timber. He did not anticipate an active demand ifor timber for export. The Bill would create a, double set of land regulations, while the country was over-governed already. He hoped the House would not agree with that proposal. The system of confiscation proposed by the Bill was too ridiculous to be commented upon. The worst feature of the whole Bill was that which mixed up the forests with the public works and loans of the Colony. The project in that respect was neither just nor prudent. He would, however, like to see measures taken to preserve the forests and encourage new plantations. Mr. Macandrew regretted that he felt constrained to vote against the Bill, though he was as anxious to preserve the forests as any member. Preservation of existing forests, and creating new forests, were separate things. Ho saw no reason for removing the control of the forests from the hands in which they were placed at present, and thought the best course was to issue better regulations for the assistance of the various Waste Land Boards. He, too, was convinced that the best course was to distribute tree seeds extensively, and leave the creation of forests to private hands. The tendency of matters for some timo had been to emasculate private enterprise. The forests, he thought, would be found more valuable than the gold. In Taranaki, for example, there were two million acres of timber, worth at least £50,000,000. A harbor only was required to enable it to be shipped. Ho did not desire to see another permanent establishment created. There were too many already. Mr. O'Conor thought the passing of the measure would be a very great benefit indeed, and could not understand theargumehtthat noproviaion should be made for the future supply of timber for mining and other purposes. His experience in the Province of Nelson, and on the goldtlelds there, showed him that the planting of young forests should not be left to private hands, but should be taken up by the Government. He was convinced that the Premier's calculations would be realised. The Bill, as regards the Province of Nelson, would work admirably. If Otago did not wish to come under the Bill, let it be left out. Before long it would desire to be brought under the ! operation of the Act. Mr. Buokland thought the Bill vicious and impracticable, interfering too much with private enterprise. The Premier should not take upon himself and the Ministry work that should be left to the public themselves. The Premier had undertaken large liabilities, which he sincerely believed would be overcome ; but that would only be done by trusting to the energies of tho people themselves. In this Colony the forests were so distributed that they had but little climatic influence. Tho great Westland forests had no influence on the bare plains of Canterbury. What was wanted was hedgerows and clumps of trees scattered over the plains. The crowded state of the wharves of Port Chalmers and Port Lyttelton was due to the treeless plains of Otago and Cantorbury. The destitution of the port of Nelson was due to the fact that the hills of that Province were covered with timber. Let the forests be cleared.away to make room for grass. The natural forests—the kauri gum, for example—grew upon soil worthless for agriculture ; but the Government proposed to take away the best lands to form nurseries. Even in Auckland, where moro timber was being utilised than in all the rest of the Colony besides, more young timber was now being grown than 'would supply the place of that whioh was being cut down. He ridiculed tho idea of a College of Forestry—why not also a School of Agriculture and a model farm ? Tho Promier, no doubt, thoroughly believed in his policy, but believed the Bill would have been allowed to drop but for tho speech of the hon. member for Timaru. The Press in this matter did not represent the feeling of the country. Tho Premier would have quite enough to do to carry out the great scheme he had already initiated, and if he did so he would establish for himself a name second to none in the annals of New Zealand. Mr. Kollestox remarked that the debato had proceeded on tho supposition that the measure would not bo pressed forward this session. The twofold object of the measure had his entire concurrence, but he could not agree that the means proposed were adequate to the end in view, whilo objects wore mixed up which had no connection with each other. The measure would press hardly upon some portions of tho Colony, especially in tho Province of Canterbury. ft would empower tho Government to take 240,000 acres which were now available for settlement in that Province—lands which were not likely for a very long time to be converted into plantations. Slnco 1870 not fewer than 05,500 trees had been planted in those reserves ; it had also established nurseries which now contained 103,000 trees fit for distribution. During the present year £13,000 had boon voted for the purpose of plan tatioiis there—a sum larger than the I'romior proposed for tho entire Colony. Tho Bill interfered too much with the powers of Provincial Governments, and placed an extent of power that might be mischievous, privately and pnblicly, in the hands of tho Conservator of Forests. Tho Bill had his sympathy, but its provisions had not his concurrence. Ho felt bound to oprioso the Bill. Ho should bo glad to join In obtaining tho services of an experienced Commissioner to advise them as to what steps should bo proposed in another session. The country, ho confessed, was altogether ovcrgoverned. Ho disapproved of tho Bill because it aimed at another matter than forestry; its effect would bo to cripple Provincial institutions. When the question arose as to the propriety of doing away with those institutions ho would be ready to discuss the matter. ' Mr. Bluett believed tho Bill would enormously benefit the Province of Canterbury. He believed (ho plantation of forests at Intervals on tho plains of Canterbury would increase tho produce of tho soil fifty per cent. These plantations would neutralise tho destructive effects of tho north-wo3t winds and the hot winds now experienced. Ho had not tho. slightest doubt as to tho beneficial effect of forests on the climate of a. country. Ho had been for years desirous of seeing an Agricultural Collego established, and thought such an institution might be worked In with a collego of forestry. Something might at tho

same time be done for the youth of the Colony, whose opportunities at present were limited. He would give the Bill his warmest support, and believed; the people of the Province of Canterbury throughout its length and breadth would thank" the-Premier for introducing the measure. Mr. Bunny did not intend to give the BUI his cordial support, and warned the House not to consent to the second reading; for If it were read a second time it might be found difficult to stop it afterwards. He did not oppose theßill from Provincial motives, but because it was one to confiscate the lands of the North Island. To apply it to the Province of Wellington would be unjust and oppressive. We want to disforest the greater proportion of the waste lands, and settle people on the soil instead. The best way to preserve the forests was to sell them, and then plant new forests where they were required. Mr. T. Kelly remarked that in Germany, Prussia,. and some other forest countries, the average proceeds of the forests was only 03. Bd. per acre ; in Austria, only 4s. The Government should, he thought, enable the Provincial Governments to open up the forests as soon as possible. In Taranaki the forests wer» worth at least £20,000,000; but that amount could not be realised unless the Province had the means of shipping the timber. If German forests only paid os. Bd. per acre, the Government scheme would yield still less in New Zealand, where wages were so much 'higher, and faggots would not form an item of revenue as it did in Germany. He did not concur in the idea that great waste was going on in the forests. The papers laid on tho table stated that sinco 18GS the extent of forest wasted in Taranaki was 200,000 acres. He was certain it did not exceed five thousand. No part of the forest had been burned—the forest, in fact, would not burn. If less rain would fall if the forests were partially cleared, that was exactly what they wanted, for at present they had too much rain. He concurred in the idea that the best way would be to distribute tree seeds cheaply. The Bill should not be proceeded with. Mr. Johnston thought that the Premier's alarming speech in introducing the Bill had not been sustained by the evidence. He observed that some oj; the most fertile countries in the world were those which had the least forest as waste land—such as Great Britain, Holland, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland. Countries situated as Ceylon, Mauritius, Nineveh, Babylon, &c, could not be compared with New Zealand. The Premier told them that England had two millions of forest lands. If that was enough for England, six millions should be enough for New Zealand, fie saw no necessity for the introduction of the Bill, and thought the Premier's ideas, of profits were purely visionary. Ten millions of forest lands in Prussia only produced £1,000,000, or two shillings an acre, though a million and a half was expended in their nominal management. He thought the nominal objects of the Bill were not its real objects, but that tho Government wanted money. They had said a year ago that they did not require a penny, and yet in the ad valorem duties khoy had filched £100,000; and now he saw a proposal to raise more revenue through the excise duties. . The eighth clause of the Bill would enable the Government to seize, upon the shipping places on the West Coast, and so prevent the establishment of private saw-mills, while clause 20 enabled them to lease lands, and clause 21 to form townships and sell sites for buildings. They were endeavoring to secure still more money through their schemes for increasing the amounts that might be deposited in post-office savings banks and Government assurance, swlule the Bill would enable the Premier to obtain and sell public lands. The Government wanted money, and for that reason he would support the Bill. He approved of the proposal to make the railways a Colonial charge as a first step to malting them a Colonial property. When the railways were first proposed it was argued that they would tend to obliterate Provincial boundaries. This Bill would be a first step to that end, and therefore he should support it, but he regretted that those objects had been cloaked over in a very unnecessary way. Mr. Luckie supported the Bill, and again expressed his preference for Colonial over Provincial institutions. ■ .

Mr. Hunter resented the reiterance of the ideas of the lion, member for Nelson City (Mr. Luckic). If the Provincial authorities did not enjoy the confidence of tho people they would not be there' to defend the interests of the people. He reminded the House that every attempt to attack Provincial institutions had hitherto failed; and they would fail again and again. He believed the people had in Provincial institutions the best safeguard of their liberties. As to the papers before the House and the speech of the Premier, they all referred to tho experience of old countries.' which were placed in an entirely different position from that of a new country of the character of New Zealand. In the South Island planting, and in the North Island clearing were required ; but the operation of the Government would materially interfere with a most important trade now going on. He would vote for the employment of a thoroughly efficient staff to report upon the forests of the country. Sinking funds ho thought an absurdity in the case of a country which was still a borrower. He objected to the Bill also because it Interfered with the present arrangements for the management of the lands. The Bill was not called for at the present time, and ho thought tho General Government had their hands full enough without taking the forests in hand. Mr. Andrew supported the Bill for the reasons stated by the hon. member for Mauawatu; and in a learned and humorous speech argued from the experience of Europe that the disforesting of countries had not altered their character from what they were centuries ago—when the sugar cane was first introduced into Spain and the vine into England. Mr. Donald Reid, in stating his intention to vote against the second reading, expressed his regret that many extraneous matters had been introduced. He failed to see why Provincialism should be mixed up with a Bill referring to forests. Ho asked what was meant by tho remark of the hon. member for Timaru, that he would like to hear moro of the people and less of the Provinces. It was impossible to leave out of consideration the interests of the people when they dealt with questions which affected districts whether known as provinces, counties, or road districts. They all represented the people. Whatever they might think of the scheme before the House, they must thank the Government for having given attention to the subject of the forests, for they must all admit that the time had come when this subject should receive consideration. He had certainly formed the opinion, however, that the Premier, when he introduced the Bill, did not intend to carry it beyond the second reading this session. After remarking that the subject divided itself into two, he took exception to the statistics as to the destruction of tho forests that had gone on. He excused the action of tho earlier settlers in cutting down the timber somewhat recklessly, but said these days were now over; tho people now knew the value of the timber, and took greater care of it. The forests in Otago were now well cared for, as well, indeed, as tho General Government could do, and at a tithe of the cost. He did not agree with those who thought the best way to deal with the forests was to dispose of them. Ho thought I " conservation" meant that the forests should be used, properly, for the good of the country; and suggested a plan for that purpose, an outline of which he gave. How could the Provinces, he asked, provide for the protection of the forests, as was now proposed ; for the powers to enable them to do so were denied to them. Whatever body had to deal with tho management of these forests would find themselves greatly embarrassed by the privileges ihe people of the Colony had hitherto been permitted to enjoy as regards them. Passing the Bill would not enable the Colony to furnish all the timber that would bo required for the railways, partly from the inaccessibility of much of the timber, and the high current rate of wages.' He agreed with the Government in tho object they had in vie x, but repeated his belief that the conservation of the forests could be best undertaken by the Provincial authorities. At the same time it would also be neces : sary that information should be obtained as to where, and to what extent, new plantations were desirable. Let Government do this, and bring. down another measure next session. He must, however, oppose tho Bill in its present state. How was it that tho necessity for this groat change had only been discovered within tho last few months ? What would have been the state*of tho country thirty years hence if the Premier had not made a tour in the South during the summer? Ho hoped the Government would allow the measure to stand over till next session. Mr. "Vogel replied to the numerous speeches that had been made. Theso had been of a very discursive character, and affecting matters not at all connected with the Bill. The speech of the hon. member for Wairarapa (Mr. Bunny) was only a repetition of the speech of the hon. membor for the Hutt, though delivered in better temper. The charge was that the Bill was one of confiscation ; but the idea was hot a littlo amusing when it was remembered that the extent of land proposed to be taken back was only a portion of what tho Colony gave to tho Provinces two sessions ago. Not an acre would bo taken from any Provinco of tho North Island which was not a part of the lands given to tho Northern Provinces by the Act of last session. The hon. member for Taranaki, while he spoke of tho large extent of forests in his Province, admitted that at present it was useless. The hon. membor for Manawatu also came forward with a characteristic complaint that the people were not permitted to make tho best use of their monoy. But there was a possibility of being too greedy, and it was no moro than fair that they should be asked to contribute a littlo moro to meot tho expenditure of the country. Ho should prefer not to have tho voto of tho hon. membor on tho ground he had put it. The hon. member Mr. Hunter opposed the Bill on the ground that the, General Government had already enough to do. It might bo that there wa3 a boundary lino beyond which the General Government should not go ; but he thought it would be moro easy for tho General Government to discharge tho duties of tho Provincial Government of Wellington, than to play the watchdog. Ho would, ho must say, rather play tho part of constable than of detective. As to tho remarks of the hon member, tho Superintendent of Otago, he might say that if the Government had only to do with tho Provinces of Otago and Canterbury, thoir task would bo easier ; but they had to do with tho Colony at large. In a report of that hon. member, itwas admitted that the forests were in course of rapid destruction ; that they should bo preserved, and that steps should at once be taken for that purpose. Hon. members had misunderstood the object of tho Bill. It was not contemplated to interfero with tho present arrangements for tho .forests, or tho regulations of the Provincial authorities; it was only contemplated to obtain a small per ccntage of tho forest lands, for the benollt of tho future population of tho Colony. Clearing away tho bush for settlement, and destroying the forests, were two different things. Hon. members, like tho hon. member for Manawatu, wero porfectly willing to permit tho Government to do such works as the railway to Wairarapa, or tho telegraph to tho north, but let them go beyond theso things, and then they interfered with private enterprise I In reply to tho observations of Mr. Sheohan,. lio quoted from tho report of Captain Walker, to show how far some provinces of India wore in advance of Auckland in tho modo of removing certain kinds of | timber; and asked tho hon. mombcr (Mr. Sheohan) to do for him tho simple rule of three of proving that if Germany was three hundred years behind Auckland, how far Auckland was beiiind India. , Tile modosty and self-complacency of Young New Zealand, as exhibited by tho hon. member forltodncy, wero things he looked upon with somo dread. It was a proof that tho forestry of Auckland was not quite perfect, that.a, company was now being' formed in Melbourne to import kauri timber in a moro markotablo stato than that in which it was at present sont to market. Tho speech of tho hon. member for Timaru deserved his warmest acknowledgments. He denied, howover, that tho speech ho referred to had anything

to do with the determination of tho Government. He did not bring down the Bill to amuse lion., members, and there was no amusement in the preparation of it, and the doouments referred to in. connection with it. He hoped then, and still' hoped, that the hon.' members who supported the Government would see their 'way to pass this Bill. There were reasons which induced the Government.to think the measure an urgent one. These were embodied in the preamble ; and it was thought that the Bill should be passed for the purpose of committing the Colony to the policy of the Bill. The Bill had been prepared with great care,., but it Was not., pretended that it was free from objection, especially from those who adopted extreme Provincial viows. If hon. members would review tho speeches that had been made, they would see that that was the only real objection made to tho Bill. He reminded the House that in the last session .tho hon. member for Auckland City West said that he abjured Provincial institutions ; and took the liberty, as a young politician addressing an older one, of suggesting that ■ ho should not refuse to see any good in a suggestion made by one to whom he was opposed. His " annoyance," he thought, was due to the fact that he felt he should support the Bill, and did not know on what ground to oppose it. But the hon. member seemed to feel that he was always bound to vote to order against anything proposed on the other side—especially in great matters affecting the general good. Nine-tenths of what had been said in the House against the Bill seemed to be due to the same feeling. The mining members, he thought, should have felt themselves bound to support the Bill, for it was impossible that mining could be carried on without a proper supply of timber. He regretted that the hon. member for tho Hutt was not in his place, but he should not therefore refrain from speaking very freely of his speech. It was of a singularly bitter character. It was evident there was then in the inindof the hon. member many other subjects than the Forests Bill. The hon. member (Mr. Fitzherbert) reminded them they would all be dead in thirty years. If so, it surely would be a not unsatisfactory reflection that they had done their duty in their day, and had prepared a future for those who were to come after them. The extent of land the Government applied for was, as the hon. member had estimated, two million acres; but that amount was not so large as the Province of Otago had in a few weeks.lately set apart for Athenaaums, and other objects. The hon. member probably supposed that tho. authors of the Bill were animated by feelings which might perhaps have animated himself. He was wrong, however, in saying it was proposed to wrong the Province of Wellington of its percentage. The Government did not want so much land as they had voluntarily proposed to relinquish to the Province as security for the payment of their railways. Tho policy of the Superintendent and Treasurer of Wellington was simplv to get into financial difficulties, and then come'to the House for relief. There was no excuse for the mismanagement of the provincial affairs of Wellington. The hon. member recounted what had been done for Wellington in the discharge of its debts within the last two or three years. There was no excuse for this state of things, because the revenue of the Province for 1873 from land was £51,000, as compared with £14,400 in 1871; and apart from land £30,000, as compared with £IO,BOO in 1872, and £13,000 in 1871. The policy of the Provinces seemed to be to spend as much as they possibly could, and then complain of the cruelty of the General Government in not allowing them to spend more. He noticed only the other day that the Education Board desired,that the engagements with them should be carried out by the Provincial Government;. but that the matter was delayed until the Colonial Treasurer should make his financial statement! The- blue gum had the peculiarity of appropriating all that was good in. the earth around it, and he thought ie might say that the Superintendent of Wellington was the blue gum of New Zealand. Tho Bill was brought down in all earnestness, for the objects expressed in its preamble ; if it brought about more, the hon. member for the Hutt and the hon. member for Wairarapa were to blame. As to cruelty of, the General Government, he might state that in the last five years £777,939 had been spent by the Colonial Government on roads, &c. In the last three years £623,000 had been so expended, as against £156,000, the proceeds of the Provincial revenue. There ttas also the peace of mind of the Government to be taken into account! Of £102,000 expended in the North Island, £83,000 had been expended on Wellington. Of £5,575,000 sanctioned for railways, £044,000 had been apportioned for Wellington. Of £308,000 for roads in the North Island, £IIB,OOO had been given to Wellington. Of £3,359,000 expended •in the North Island in tho period of which he was speaking, £2,387,000 had been by the Colony from Colonial funds, and only £448,000 from Provincial revenues. There were three causes of constant discontent that should be disposed of. One was the question of separation , and it should at once be set down that thero was no possibility of separation of the two islands. As to tho "seat of Government; he had voted against Wellington, aud in the same circumstances would do so again, but he regarded that question as irrevocably settled, and that the compact of 1856 should be ratified by Act of Parliament as soon as possible. As to the question raised as to expense of managing two million of acres, the Government did not propose to select lands that were all-of superior class, but they did expect to obtain some land which would yield a revenue. It seemed to him absurd that they should not receive tho assistance of the land fund to pay for railways that were to immensely increase the value of the lands of tho Colony. Every institution in tho Colony received endowments of land —why should the Colony be outlawed from thelProvinces and receive no such assistance. 'To hear people talk it might be supposed the Genctal Government meant to rob tho Provinces ; and it might bo a matter of comfdaint in a Province that it was. to lose some of its and, but it would be a matter of congratulation to others that the land in question -was to be used for the amenity of tho whole Colony. He denied that New Zealand was not exposed to the climatic influences which affected other lands. Three per cent, of the forests of the country for the Colony will not interfere with the efforts of private enterprise. Ho did not believe that the best skill in forestry could be' found in the Colony ; the Provinces separately coidd not find that skill. It could only be found, as it was In India, by the Colony at large. He did not desire to prolong the session ; but he did not disguise that he wished to see the House committed to the principles of the Bill: and to that end would be content to pass the Bill with the provisions as to the land left out. He would accept tho Bill much like the play of Hamlet with tho part of the Prince left out. He proposed to reduce the Bill to twelve clauses, leaving tho amount of land to be taken up to be left to the determination of the General Assembly ; to leave it to the Provinces and Provincial Superintendents to invite the Governments to take up specific forests as state forests ; and if the Provinces should fail to do so, then the Government to be empowered to interfere The power of destruction was more powerful than the power of construction ; and the public works now in progress would bo a curse rather than a blessing if no provision was made for the future of the forests of New Zealand. The question, he repeated, was the question of questions of tho Colony. The second reading of tho Bill was then agreed to without a discussion, and it was ordered to be committed on Friday.