PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4173, 5 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 4. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr. Rolleston, leave of absence was granted to Mr. Webster for the remainder of the session, on urgent private business. MATIAHA's CLAIMS. Mr. BRANDON asked the Native Minister, —" For what political reasons the grant of a piece of land on the Waiohine River, in the Province of Wellington, called Ahikouka South, to Matiaha and certain other Natives, who are declared by certificate of the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court to be the true owners thereof, is withheld from them.". Mr. McLEAN was understood to say that the reason why the grant had not been issued to Matiaha was the difficulty in determining whether he wa3 to be considered as the equitable owner of the land in question. The first judgment by the Native Land Court was against Matiaha ; then the judgment of the second sitting of the Court was to the effect that a certain portion of the land should be set apart for him, thus admitting his right to a portion of the land. The case was creating a good deal of bad feeling between the rival claimants of the land, and the Government found it necessary to send some eight or ten independent chiefs into the Wairarapa district to ascertain more fully and accurately what was the real state of the Native tenure. Their report was favorable to Matiaha'3 claim, and the Government felt that the best course to adopt was to ask the House to pass a Bill, granting another rehearing, so that ample justice might be done. TENDERS FOB KAIL WAY STOCK. Mr. MURRAY asked,—" How much of the expenditure of £729,-103 16s. 5d., mentioned in the Statement for Permanent Way and Rolling Stock in England and New Zealand, was incurred under tender. Have the lowest tenders always been accepted. If not, in how many case3,declined, and why." • Mr. RICHARDSON replied that only in exceptional cases, which were very few, were the lowest tenders not accepted. POUT CHALMERS RAILWAY DEBENTURES. Mr. MURRAY asked,—" Where in the Public Accounts is to be found a statement of the £20,000 worth of Port Chalmers Railway Debentures which the Premier intimated in a former session had been purchased." Mr. VOGEL was not aware of having made such a statsment. CABLE COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA. Mr. O'NEILL asked,—"When arrangements will be commenced by New Zealand, New South Wales, and Queensland for the construction of an electric cable between New Zealand and New South Wales, and from Normantown, in Queensland, to Singapore, in terms of agreement now ratified by the Parliaments of the three Colonies ?" Mr. VOGEL was understood to reply that the arrangements were expected to be completed very shortly. LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILLS. Leave was given to Mr. McLean to introduce the following Bills : —Whakataki Grant Bill; Native Land Act, 1873, Amendment Bill ; a Bill to validate certain Orders in Council issued under the provisions of the " Outlying Districts Sale of Spirits Act, 1870" ; Ahikouka Native Claims Rehearing Bill; Outlying Districts Sale of Spirits Act, 1870, Amendment Bill; and the Awahuri Native Grantees Bill. To Mr. Tribe—A Bill to amend the Gold Fields Act, 1866. ~ To Mr.RoLLEHTON —A Bill to amend tho Employment of Females Act, 1873;" and to Mr. Bryce—A Bill to Provide for the Election of Mayors of the Borough of Wanganui. FOREST CONSERVATION. The debate was continued by Mr. Murray, who opposed the Bill. Mr. MACANDREW regretted very much that lie felt constrained to vote against the proposal as it now stood ; and in doing so, ho claimed that he was as desirous as any member of the House of preserving and extending the forests of the Colony. But he could not see how this was the way to do it. The Bill proposed two distinct things—one to preserve the forests, the other to extend them. He could not see the necessity of removing the control of tho forests from the hands of those who had hitherto administered them. Tho right thing to do would be to define the powers of the various Waste Land Boards throughout the Colony, in relation to the forests, so far as these powers might be insufficient to onable them to guard against the wanton and reckless destruction of timber. That was tho practical thing to do. He was not looking at the matter in any narrow-minded Provincial spirit, but from a practical common-sense point of view. They had been treated daring this debate to a little of what might be termed " flapdoodle." They had heard a good deal of the people of the Colony as against tho Provinces, just as if there was any antagonism between the people of the Colony and tho people of tho Provinces. Why tho people of tho Provinces were the peopl* of the Colony, and vice versa, and he should say

the people of the Provinces had far greater and a far more direct interest in the question of preserving and extending the forests, than the people of the Qolony. (Hear.) Such, at all events, was his opinion. And with regard to providing for the future, he was not by any means clear that the best way to do was by State forests. It was amatter that might be very well left to private enterprise; at all events, if the State did anything, it should be in the direction of obtaining seeds of suitable trees, and distributing them annually by the million at reasonable prices. That experiment had been commenced and been in practice for a couple of years in Otago, and was increasing year by year, and he had no doubt whatever that in the course of a few years more, the Province would have many thousand acres of land, now bare, which would be covered by timber. He knew several estates in Otago on which tree planting was looked forward to as one of the most profitable crops that could be put in. Looking at the principle of the thing, ho could not see what difference there was, if the State went in for growing timber, or for corn-growing or anything else. It seemed to him that there was no distinction whatever. In undertaking forest legislation there was the great danger of usurping the functions of individuals. They were going in that direction very fast—emasculating, as it were, private enterprise. He believed there was sufficient timber in the Colony to Batisfy all our requirements for centuries to come ; not only so, but to provide a local export to an enormous extent. Take Taranaki, for example. He believed that Province had over two million acres of timber, which, at a moderate computation, might be estimated as being worth at least fifty millions of money. (Hear.) That was a very moderate computation; all that was required was a harbor at Taranaki—(laughter)—to enable the timber to be shipped, and he hoped the Superintendent of Taranaki would succeed in getting a harbor. (Laughter.) He could not support the Bill because he believed the best way of conserving and preserving the timber of the Colony was by means of local administration. He believed the people themselves in the various localities were far more likely to preserve timber from waste. In the second place, he believed the future could be provided for infinitely better by the people themselves than by the State* There was. too much of the nursing process going on, and last, but not least, while not going into the political aspect of the question, the great reason why he objected to the Bill in its present shape was that by it we were entering into another permanent establishment, of which wc had too many already. Mr. O'CONOR thought Nelson _ would greatly benefit by the passing of the Bill. He could not understand how members, knowing the great necessity there was for meeting our growing requirements for timber, particularly where minerals abounded, failed to recognise the want of adequate provision being made for the future. The Bill would' work admirably as regarded Nelson. Mr. BTJCKLAND advised members who disbelieved in the measure, to oppose its second reading. He considered it pernicious legislation, and impracticable to work. Mr. ROLLESTON observed that up tothe present the debate had proceeded on the idea that the Bill would not become law this session, and that it was rather of a tentative than a positive character. It had been admitted pretty generally, and quite to the satisfaction of the Premier, that the time had arrived when it was advisable for the Colony to take some steps and to adopt some measure for effecting his twofold object of conserving existing forests and creating new ones by planting. For himself, those objects had his most cordial sympathy, but the machinery by which it was proposed to obtain them was one ivith which he could not at all concur. Not only was it sought to obtain those objects by inadequate means, but the Bill was mixed up with other subjects with which the ostensible object had little or no necessary connection whatever. As had been suggested in certain quarters of the House, the measure would press hardly by crippling a very considerable industry, and interfere with .private enterprise. Dealing with that part of the Middle Island a constituency of which he represented, he believed the Bill would pres 3 most unfairly. The provisions of the Bill would act most unjustly towards Canterbury, and the effect of its passing would be that the Premier would have power to take 240,000 acres of land, presumably suitable for settlement, and to take the revenues of that land for the purpose of obtaining revenue for planting purposes. It could not be contemplated within any reasonable time to take the land for the purposes of planting; and in the meantime, it would be very difficult to imagine that the effect of any such other course would be other than impeding the settlement of the Province. In that way the Bill would press unequally. Up to the present time it had not been recognised what was being done in Canterbury in the very direction in which the Bill went. He gave a few figures regarding what was done there during the last four years. Some thousands of acres had been reserved in different parts of the Province for the pur-poses of recreation, and as a means of recreation in connection with gardens tree planting was encouraged. Not only was such the case, but since 1870, 65,510 trees had been distributed and planted in these reserves, and in most eases were doing well throughout the Province. The Provincial Government had also established a nursery, which, in addition to the distribution of those trees, had now 103,000 trees for distribution in future years. Canterbury had clearly shown that it did not require to have this subject forced on its notice. It had fully appreciated the necessity for it by setting aside reserves, by distributing seeds, and by appropriating considerable sums of money. During the present year Canterbury had appropriated for the establishment of plantations throughout the Province £13,000, a sum larger than the Premier proposed to adopt for the whole Colony. He also objected to the Bill because it took powers out of the hands of the Provincial Governments and placed them in the hands of the General Government, and because power was given to individuals of dealing with certain interests in a manner which ought not to be permitted. With the otherrepresentatives of the Provincehavingbcen elected to maintain intact the administration of the waste lands by the Provinces, it was his duty to speak his mind in reference to, and to oppose any interference with, the administrations of waste lands without the consentof the Province. He would prefer to see what he thought might bo properly done this session, and to tliat end ho would gladly support a vote for the purpose of obtaining commissioners, as proposed by the Bill, to give advice as to what was most advantageous to be done, so that the House at a future session might more wisely and more maturely consider the subject. Experience should show the Premier that there would be no difficulty in obtaining the cooperation of the Provinces in a mutter where the interests of the people were so considerably involved as in this. He could answer that Canterbury would have no hesitation in offering such facilities for following up the subject as might be desired by the Colonial Government, but the people of the Province would not approve of their members supporting any proposal to take away from the Province, in the manner proposed by the Bill, its lands for revenue purposes. The Bill aimed at another object than forestry, and its effect would bo practically to cripple private interests in a way he held to be deleterious to the people of the Province and of the Colony. Mr. BLUETT was understood to doubt if the member for Avon, in speaking as he did, really represented the wishes of the people of Canterbury. He asserted without fear of contradiction that a Bill of this kind would be very beneficial to tho people of Canterbury. If trees were planted at proper intervals along the Christchuroh plains the productiveness of the soil would be increased fifty-fold, and an end put in a groat measure to the destructive effects of the N.\V. -wind, which blew out thousands of acres of grain, besides withering and drying up many thousand acres more before they came to maturity. The people of Canterbury would thank the Premier if ho passed the Bill now before the House.

Mr. BUNNY said it was not his intention to give the Bill his cordial support. He cautioned thoße who wished to defeat the measure not to allow it to pass its second reading, because were they to allow it to do so they might have considerable difficulty in stopping its further progress. He yielded to no one in a desire to see the forests conserved, but the present Bill utterly failed to accomplish that object. Had there been anything m the measure to benefit the Colony it would have had his most cordial support; but what was really meant was to confiscate the land, particularly that of the North Island. Mr. T. Kelly, Mr. Johnston, Mr. Hunter, and Mr. Reid opposed; and Mr. Andrew and Mr. Luokie supported the Bill. Mr. VOGEL said that he had not a very easy task to reply to the many speeches that had been made upon the subject, because they had been of a very discursive nature, and the objections various in their kind. In many cases the objections had really resolved themselves more into questions not affecting the Bill or its objects, but affecting other matters, particularly the great question of Provincialism. He would, however, refer to some of the speeches, and first of all he would endeavor to reply to those made last week. Those made to-day did not contain very much new matter, but were merely a repetition of those made on the previous occasion. The objections of the member for Wairarapa were a mild edition of the speech of the member for the Hutt. He was glad to find the first mentioned hon. gentleman less bitter, and speaking in a better temper than the member for the Hutt, but the burden of their song was the same : the measure was one of confiscation, it was proposed by it to make away with a quantity of land, and Wellington was the particular Province most affected, and Wellington was to lose 210,000 acres. By and bye he would have-a great deal to say.upon the City of Wellington question. And before proceeding further, he must say that it seemed a rather good joke to try to place Wellington in the position of a martyr, when 220,000 acres were two years ago voluntarily relinquished by the House to Wellington, over which the Colony had' security for the construction of its railways.. This was the result of allowing a portion to be taken back of the very large estate which the Colony had very liberally provided, .and he failed to see any cause for this martyrdom' that had been so obtruded before their eyes. Of course, there came from the member .for Wairarapa the same complaint that was always heard from the "member for the Hutt, of not being allowed to spend as much money as he could borrow, and of borrowing as much; as he could. The question that might be very fairly considered' was, whether it was desired that all the land might be disposed of and no portion kept for the Colony, or whether some part of it should be reserved. The member for New Plymouth took exception to some of the figures. It must be borne in.mind that it would be impossible to bring forward figures..that would be absolutely correct; all they did was to present an aspect of thesubject from which hon. members might draw their own deductions. These figures, however, showed beyond question, that without some step in the. direction proposed our forests, at no very remote period, would be entirely destroyed ; and he could not see how any *one approaching the subject with an unprejudiced mind could arrive at. any other conclusion. The hon. member for New Plymouth in the same breath that he told the House of the immense , forests of Taranaki, and, therefore, that it was unnecessary to preserve them, also told the House that they were comparatively useless, because the Minister for Public Works would not allow them to be used for the timber required for the railways. It seemed to him if those forests were comparatively useless was it not a strong argument to endeavor to keep some small portion—and 3 per cent, was a small proportion—not only for present use, but for use in the future. The member for Manawatu gave the Bill a lefthanded support. That hon. gentleman also came forward with his usual characteristic complaint about people not being allowed to make enough money, and being unjustly deprived of a great deal of money by having to pay so much Customs duties, and so much of other things. He (Mr. Vogel) thought the general opinion would be that the people of New Zealand were getting quite sufficient money, and were very fortunate in being in that position. But there was such a thing as being too greedy. Among those who were benefiting by the prosperity of the country, were some who, a few years ago would not have dreamed of carrying on the businesses they were now carrying on ; who now in a single week did an amount of business which they had not hoped to carry on in a month before. They should be content, even if we had to pay more money for the support of the Government of tho country. One result was the very large returns which that expenditure brought in its train. No doubt, with no public works there would have been less expenditure, less cost, less laxation, and perhaps less amounts would have been required ; but he thought if a balance was struck it would be found to be a profit for individuals. The hon. member said he would vote for the Bill, because he looked upon it as a means of upsetting the compact of 1856. He could not congratulate the hon. member on the reasons that induced him to give that vote ; nor did he think, if the hon. member would allow him to say so, that he would have felt proud of the character of a firebrand: The hon. member not only came down and endeavored to j ersuade hon. members that the policy was such as should disturb the compact of 1850, but went a step further, and assumed that that must be the result ; and at once gave the Bill his vote. He really wished the hon. gentleman would not give his vote on the ground stated by him. The member for Wellington City (Mr. Hunter) voted against the Bill on the ground that the Colonial Government has its hands full enough already. That hon. member did not want the Provinces and Provincial Governments to be interfered with. He (Mr. Vogel) had before stated in the House that it was desirable the Provincial and the General Governments should each perform its allotted duties. But there might be a boundary line beyond which it might be found more easy for the General Government absolutely to take charge itself, than to ; be substantially performing all the duties. He had only to cite Wellington to cause the reflection in every hon. member's mind whether or not it would be more easy for the Government to perform the duties of the Province of Wellington than to have to watch the conduct of the Province and be constantly on the alert against demands of a class that it was very difficult to deal with. For his part, he would rather undertake the duties of a constable than of a detective. When the General Government got drawn into tho position of having to perform both duties, the question naturally arose which of the evils should be chosen. B.ut he would have more to say on this question anon ; he only referred to it now because it naturally arose in replying to the hon. member for Wellington City's remark-that the Government had got quite enough to do. He (Mr. Vogel) agreed that it had quite enough to do, without havin"- to look after Provinces which should bo abfa to look after themselves. The Superintendent of Otago (the hon. member for Port Chalmers) also opposed the Bill, but purely on tho Provincial ground that the Provinces could take charge of tho matter, and were better able to do so. This was an argument the House had often heard before and upon somewhat similar occasions. He (Mr. Vogel) had often stated before that if they had been only dealing with the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury he might have been able to agree with very much of what the hon. gentleman had said, as to the aid which those Provinces could exercise. But they were dealing, not with one or two Provinces, but with the whole Colony ; and this Bill was essentially proposed in tho interests of the. Colony. That there was occasion for alarm that hon. member was propared to admit; and he (Mr. Vogel) thought there was evidence on the point beforo the House.- (The hon. gentleman here read an extract from Mr. Innes's report.) He went on to say that when introducing the Bill he distinctly stated that the idea of the Government was not to undertake the charge of forests that were being worked ; and that they strictly endeavored and desired to guard them-

selves against any interference with the timber interests of the country. The idea was to obtain and set apart for future use a small portion of the country in the shape of State forests, which would be ' of value and use to those who came after us. He denied altogether that they wanted to interfere with the licenses to cut timber, annually granted by the Provinces, and that they wished to rob the Provinces of any revenues they obtained from persons who were allowed to cut timber in the forests now being worked. Many of those who objected to tho Bill were either not able, or were unwilling to draw the distinction between bush which it was desirable should be cleared away, and forest land which it was desirable should be preserved. He could only say that in the absence of that distinction, they were arguing about different "things. He was not at all an advocate for preserving useless timber, and so preventing the settlement of the land ; but that was widely different from destroying valuable timber that had taken centuries to mature. A favorite argument was that the industries of the people should not be interfered with ; and it was used to some extent by the mrmber for Manawatu. Those who used it were quite prepared to allow the State to interfere with many questions they deemed practicable, and particularly with interests they favored. Then- objection was a theoretical one, but the moment it .got beyond that, they saw ample reasons for the thing. Those who really complained were amongst those who supported such a policy which gave a denial to any abstract theory on the subject. After noticing the speeches of the member for Rodney, Mr. Vogel observed that a speech that called for his warm acknowledment was that delivered by themember forTimaru. To the statement that had been made that that speech was the cause of the Government urging on the Bill beyond the extent to which they originally intended, he gave a denial. The Bill was brought down under circumstances that left no doubt in hon. members' minds that it commanded the very warm support of the Government. At the same time he stated that the question was of such a very large nature that it was possible the House might not see its way to go on with it this session. (Hear.) He had no idea of coming down with the Bill merely to amuse hon. members ; nor was there any amusement in going to the trouble of preparing the Bill or the papers that accompanied it; but it might have been quite possible that hon. members who might have been favorable . to the Bill would have preferred giving to it a longer consideratipn . than the present session -—(hear) —hence the remark he made upon the subject. But as in the interval members had given it a great deal of study, ' and there appeared to be a strong party in the House to support the Bill, the Government were anxious if possible to produce the best measure, and he hoped members would see their way to assist the Government. There was much said by the member for Timaru with which he agreed. That hon. member said, even if the House did not 'agree with the details of the Bill, it ought at anyrateto commit the Colony to undertaking the establishment of State forests. The preamble of the Bill expressed in a few words the whole principle upon which the Government deemed it a necessity to ask the House to look upon the question as one of urgency and importance. The Bill was prepared with the greatest possible care, though it dealt with the difficult question of dealing with a Colonial matter in a manner that would be satisfactory and pleasant to the Provinces. It was after long consideration that the plan adopted was adopted —a plan that seemed most free from those objections wMch he was quite willing to admit it would have been impossible to avoid altogether, viz., the objections of those who take an extreme view upon the Provincial question. He agreed with the hon. member for Timaru, that the real opposition to the Bill had proceeded from those who adopted extreme Provincial views. (Hear.) One hon. gentleman went the length of saying that he would support the Bill because he saw £IO,OOO would be spent amongst the Provinces. The hon. member for Waikouaiti • wished to employ criminals in preserving the forests, and wished to bring science to the aid of bushranging; or wanted to learn bushrangers forest-ranging. (Laughter.) One notable exception in respect of the opposition given to the .Bill, was that given by the hon. inember for Auckland (Mr. T. B. Gillies)—opposition that could not be said to be open to the objection that it was based on Provincial grounds. It was not statesmanlike to refuse to see any merit in any proposal made by an adversary; and in this respect the hon. member for Timaru was notably distinguished from Mr. Gillies. The latter's annoyance was not at having to oppose the Bill because it was his duty to do so ; but at not knowing on what grounds to oppose, and he did so by opposing its character. The only substantial opposition was on the ground that there was some occult or mysterious design. The most curious feature of the discussion was that the Bill should have been opposed by mining members, who never seemed to be tired of seeking the assistance of the Colony as against the Provinces. He now came to the speech of the member for the Hutt. Although that hon. member was not in the House, he (Mr. Vogel) would certainly not consider himself precluded from speaking freely in his absence, as no doubt some kind "friend would convey to him what he (Mr.. Vogel) was about to say, and anticipate his remarks appearing in Hansard. He was sorry that the bitterness shown by the member for the Hutt, when he addressed the House on the Bill, should not have been discharged on some more suitable occasion. The hon. gentleman considered the Bill as an attack upon the Province of Wellington, and sneered at the' idea of looking forward to thirty years hence, saying that we should all be dead by that time. (Laughter.) It seemed to him (Mr. Vogel) that when the hour come for all men the feeling would be one of less satisfaction if public duties had been performed without leaving any legacy to those who came after us; but on the contraiy there would be greater satisfaction if those public duties left behind them their trace or mark. The commencement of public works must have been made in a few years, whether in 1869 or 1879 ; the country could not be left without public works, but the destruction of timber and the failure to provide other in its place was not a matter that could be remedied even after any long period of time. This was a question that affected the future much more intimately and to a much larger extent than the question of hurrying on public works. That was his own feeling, and he thought many hon. members would agree with him. The extent of laud asked for by the Bill had no doubt been cai-efully calculated by the member for the Hutt; it amounted to about two million acres. The Province of Otago, in the brief space of about six weeks, about two yeara ago, appropriated for a variety of purposes an extent of country larger than was asked for State forests for New Zealand. The member for the Hutt noted that the Bill was an insiduous attempt to obtain 216,000 acres of the best laud of Wellington. That hon. member appeared to be so accustomed to AVays that are dark and Tricks that are vain that, without apology, he took it for granted that the Government were actuated by motives like himself, and assumed that the Bill was not what it purported to be, but intended to deceive the House and the country. There was some excuse for the hon. gentleman having such an opinion ; we were to prone to judge other people by ourselves. The proposal of the Bill was not to take within Wellington or any other Province any land that had acquired exceptional value, but merely land suitable for state forests, and lands suitable as endowments for state forests. And in respect of the desire o£ the Government to rob the Provinces of their heritage, the Government did not want to take one acre that had not been purchased by the Colony and made over as a free gift to the Provinces during the last three years. It was not very difficult to trace tho opposition of the member for the Hutt. It proceeded from the very painful duty of the present Government to restrain him in the exercise of his Provincial powers. The policy of the Superintendent and Provincial Secretary of Wellington was to do their best to got tho Province into financial difficulties, and then to come to the Assembly for assistance. There was no possible excuse

for the Province of Wellington being in difficulties, except the restrained power of expenditure without reference to payment. It was only three years since that the Colony discharged all the debts of the Province then disclosed.; paid off the bank • overdraft, and liabilities arising from the Province appropriating the funds of the Saving's Bank depositors, through not keeping a separate account, and paid off the liability in respect of the small farms that were never purchased. (Laughter). In addition to these the Colony paid off the arrears on surveys, and paid half the survey staff for a considerable time afterwards. There had been no failure of revenue to account for the Province getting into such difficulties. In . 1871 the land revenue was £14,400; in 1872, £26,000; and in 1873, £51,000; and the revenue from ordinary sources in 1871, £13,600, in 1872, £19,800, and in IS'73, £30,000. With this increase of revenue what excuse was there for the Province coming to the House complaining of the cruelty of the General Government and the Colony. It was the duty of Provincial Governments to carry on their works in proportion to their means, but if the policy was to be recognised that no matter what is their position the means of Provinces are to be exhausted, then we would simply have a repetition of the policy of the Colony with Wellington. He was rather amused the other day on reading the report of the Wellington Education Board meeting, at what a member of the Board, also a member of the House, suggested—that the Board should postpone the consideration of how to meet its undischarged liabilities until after the Colonial Treasurer had made his Financial Statement. (Laughter.) Then there was another,meeting of the Board yesterday, when it was explained that so much was coming out of the loan to discharge the Board's liabilities, but the Chairman said all the advance obtained would be required to repay the bank overdraft. - If they were thus going to deal with Provinces like Wellington, with increasing revenues, it would be very much less trouble for the Colonial Government to take charge rather than have to look after the matter in this way. (Cheers.) He would like to apply a metaphor to the Superintendent of Wellington. There was a tree, a most valuable and useful tree, not sightly or savoury, but with peculiar properties; no other tree could grow near it, for it was so ravenous and ferocious. This was the blue gum. His lion, friend, the member for the Hutt, was pa r excellence the blue gum of New Zealand. "(Loud laughter.) There was a small tree alongside him, which was represented by the member for Wairarapa. He told the member for the Hutt that the Bill was brought down lona fide and in the full belief that the House had again and again expressed a wish that the Government should deal with the subject, and in the strong belief that it was one that demanded the imperative and most earnest consideration of the Legislature of the country. To the conduct of the Provincial Government of Wellington during the recess and the speech of the member for the Hutt, might be attributed any consequences that might arise in the opposite direction to what that hon. member advocated. Since they were put to it, the Government would have to consider Wellington and the North Island asawhole (hear),—to see whether it was not possible that the Government might be more relieved by being directly responsible for the good government of the Province, than indirectly responsible, as now. (Cheers.) He held in his hand a statement showing the amount of the expenditure of the General Government on the Province of Wellington during the years 1809 to 1874, five years ; and hon. members would be startled to know that the total expenditure by the Colony, or by means provided by it through loans, had been no less than £770,939. As the return of the revenue of Wellington was only made up for three years he would compare the three years. The Provincial amounts were—received from land, £92,000 ; from Provincial revenue, £63,000, or a total of £156,000. During three years the Colony spent in Wellington as against £156,000 provided by the Province itself. The peace of mind of the members of the General Government had also to be considered, for he could not conceive a more disagreeable position than living in a city where the lesser Government makes it its business to do all it possibly can to teach every man, woman, and child in the place, that the Colony was their natural enemy. He knew of a case where some small sum — £5 or £lo—was asked for by the Provincial Government, and the reply was, "Really, we have, no doubt about your claim. Mr. Vbgel is doing all he can to make the Province bankrupt, and we must be just before we are generous." (Laughter.) Just fancy living in a town where this kind of thing was going on ! If they were to have the extra duties to perform, they had better do them; but he would rather be a constable than a detective. He would rather know what duties he had to perform, than to be constantly under a sense of painfulness about what was really taking place around him. After what had been done for Wellington, it was shameful ingratitude on the part of the Superintendent of Wellington to come down and make such charges against the General Government and the Colony which had done so much to advance the interests of the Province. Let them look at these things. He had a statement of the expenditure on immigration. Up to June 30 last, £162,000 had been spent, of which amount Wellington obtained £83,000, against £79,000 for the rest of the North Island. Then £5,575,000 was altogether voted for railway purposes, of which Wellington, with about one-tenth the revenue and a tenth of the population of the Colony, had already been voted £044,000 for railways; besides which the Government had asked £112,000 for the line to Wanganui, £30,000 for the Masterton and Poxton line, £50,000 for the Patea-Wanganui line ; and provision would have to be made for Wanganui-Manawatu, one of the gaps not yet completed, for which something lik« £300,000 would have to be voted this or some year. And that was the manner the Colony was assisting this poor Province that all were so inclined to sit upon. This was the Province the House was asked to shed tears over, and the condition of which the member for the Hutt so pathetically described. (Laughter.) Then on North Island roads there had, up to June last, been expended £368,000, of which £IIS,OOO was spent in the Province of Wellington. This was not provincialism as understood in the great Provinces of the Middle Island. With the armed constabulary in Auckland, and that Province looking to the Assembly for help in the matter of education, what remains to be done by the Colony which it would not do as well as the Provinces ? These were reflections forced upon them when these complaints were made, Taking the North Island question altogether, he found that the Colonial allowance for Provincial purposes—the expenditure in the North Island by the Colony—for the five years ended June last was £3,389,000 ; and during the past three years £2,387,000,whi1e the total revenue raised by the Provinces in the Island during that tune was £448,000. If these figures were not suggestive, he would be very much surprised ; at any rate, they were eminently so to his mind. When he was told that the establishment of State forests in the North Island was inconsistent with the maintenance of Provincialism in the Island, it seemed to him to be necessary to abolish the Provinces. (Loud "hears.") The country suffered very much from three disturbing causes, and the sooner they were settled by Act the better. One was separation ; the other, the seat of Government; and the third, the compact of 1856. It was necessary that these should be settled ; that it should be clearly understood that the coinpact of 1856 was one which, under no circumstances, could the Colony honorably depart from—(cheers) —and the sooner it was ratified by Act, and not left to depend upon a mere resolution, the better. They were placed before their eyes as very tempting morsels, and there was a desire to seize them. The separation, question was a chimera such as nurses used in their Btories of bogies and ghosts. There was no prospect of separation in our time or by our aid. (Hear.) He stated now, as he had not been afraid to state in Auckland, that he looked upon the seat of Government as settled. He was one of those who were dissatisfied with the removal of the seat of Government from Auckland, voted against it, and would do the

same again if the same question came over again. "He always held that the Wanganui war was one of the causes of the removal ol the seat of Government. But there was now no remote or possible contingency of the matter being re-opened, nor did he think the Colony desired to have the seat of Government removed from Wellington. After dealing with some other matters, the I Premier went on to refer to the Bill, and saiil much ridicule had been cast upon the Government for their idea to spend £IO,OOO a year on two million acres. He was sorry if he had not been sufficiently explicit at the former -sitting. The two million acres proposed to be taken was of a mixed character. They did not ask for land of exceptional value on account of its position, or which would be required for immediate settlement. He objected and argued strongly against the Colony being outlawed from dealing with a small portion of the lands for this work, when the Provinces were able to make large gifts for quasi public purposes. In conclusion, he said that as the Government did not desire to prolong the session, unless it met the views of members, he was willing to propose some alterations in the Bill He proposed introducing what the member for Timaru said they should, a clause to commit the House to the establishing of State Forests, by a yearly payment for that purpose, and authority to the Government to obtain skilled assistance, ami power given to manage the forests. He was willing that the Bill for this year should be like Hamlet with the part of the Prince of Denmark left out out. .The Act should appear precisely as it was, but the proportion of land to be comprised in State forests should be taken out. He did this to give the Provinces an opportunity of showing what they would do on their own behalf. He did not hesitate to say that if the Provinces failed to provide State forests it would be the duty o£ the Colony- to insist upo» the acquisition of: them. ... The second reading was carried on the voices. NAVAL TRAINING SCHOOLS. Mr. REYNOLDS moved the second reading of the Naval Training School Establishment Bill. Mr. T. B. GILLIES heartily supported what he considered to be a well-drawn Bill; and the Bill was read a second time. The second reading of the Harbor Works Bill was opposed by several members, and, on the motion of Mr. Sheeha.v, was adjourned till Friday. The Christchurch Drainage Debentures Bill was made an order of the day for AVednesday ; and the second readings of the Inspection of Machinery Bill and of the Oamaru Harbor Board Loan Bill were made orders of the day for Friday. The House was adjourned at half-past eleven, o'clock.