PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4170, 1 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, July 81. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE brought up report of the Waste Lauds Committee, which was read. The Hon. Col. BRETT, by leave, moved that the time for bringing up the report of select committee on the Canterbury Public Domain Bill be extended to Tuesday, 4th August. Granted. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES asked the Colonial Secretary whether it was intended to plank the railway bridge over the Mataura, at Gore, for the accommadation of foot passengers. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that no provision had been made for the purpose of making the bridge fit for foot passengers. ‘ WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. WaterHOUSE, the Bill was ordered to be committed to a committee of the whole Council, on Tuesday next. CALL OP THE COUNCIL. The following members were absent when the Council was called over ;—The Hon. Messrs. Hall, Kohere, Maclean, Rhodes, Scotland, T. P. Taylor, Col. Whitmore, and Wigley, all of whom were excused, excepting the Hon. Mr. Maclean, who was summoned to attend _on Tuesday, 11th August next. The Council then adjourned for half-an-hour, to allow the Ward-Chapman Committee to examine a witness about to proceed by mail steamer. CONSTITUTION act amendment bill. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN was afraid that hen. members were alarmed at the terms of the notice of motion given—that they were afraid of changes in the Constitution Act. When changes or proposed changes in the Constitution Act were brought forward, the Council expresed itself very strongly. He would not say that the Council was not capable of improvement. No change, however, was contemplated in the constitution of the Council, but in its action. It might he urged that the cases contemplated by the Bill never occurred ; but they had very nearly done so. A quiet time was the best for such a purpose as that of the Bill. The political atmosphere at presentwas most serene ■, not even a cloud was to be seen. The House had no grounds of dispute, so that it was a most fitting time to introduce a measure of this kind. Some' time or other irrecoucileable differences might arise, resulting in a dead-lock He could remember that what he might call a “ shocking example ” of this had occurred in Victoria. In this Colony, and others possessing similar representative institutions one means of getting over such difficulties was by increasing the number of members of the Upper House, and ■ another way was by tacking clauses on to the * Appropriation Bill In a Colony so young as this questions of very great magnitude are seldom before the Assembly. There were no large questions affecting the outside world or vested interests at present. The questions that "give rise to differences were generally of a financial character—small, sometimes ridiculously small, and these created irritation. Time went fast in the Colony—time would not wait. The necessity was to provide some immediate means of removing the difficulty. The Bill provided such a remedy. It provided that the Governor, should he made a mediator between them. It provided that he should have the power of saying whether any particular measure should be submitted to the joint Chamber. The Council would see that they were not, invited to assent to a measure affecting its constitution. He would not, as he had done on former occasions, give them a synopsis of the Bilk The Hon. Colonel KENNY rose to move th e following amendment:—“That all the words after ‘That,’ be omitted, with a view to insert in lieu thereof ‘ the Bill be referred to a select committee, to be appointed by ballot, to consider and report to the Council upon the changes proposed to be made in the Constitution Act by the provisions of the Con- ' stitution Act Amendment Bill.’ The committee to report on "Wednesday, sth August.” Before doing so he would give his reasons. He would not go at great length into the merits of the BiU. Independent of the remarks of the Colonial Secretary with respect to the course he had pursued last session, it had been stated that hon. gentleman had made a statement that the Council summarily and contemptuously threw out the Bill, without a debate. Without saying anything offensive, he might state that such was not the case, for there had been a long debate, as reported in Hansard,, on a collateral question—the constitution of the Council. The hon. gentleman, last session, introduced a Bill to effect a change in the constitution of the Council—by election. ~ From a despatch from Lord John Russell, it " appeared that the Governor was prepared to make the change without taking the necessary preliminary steps. The hon. gentleman now brought forward a Bill of a different nature. He said no alteration in the constitution of the Council was intended—nice expression. The constitution of the Council might be defined in various ways, but the powers of the Council were altered by the Bill. That might be done by the -Council being outvoted. The hon. gentleman said that the political atmosphere was serene, and that the differences beween the two branches of the Legislature were upon questions of a financial character. This was an unfortunate expression. The most important debate that had occurred was one of last session of a purely political nature. The Council objected to conferences. He believed that the hon. gentleman most satisfactorily advocated, from a sense of _ duty, measures with which he, individually, did not concur. The Bill made the Council a voting

power, instead of a deliberative body. There was no corresponding proportion between the members of the two Houses, so that the Council would be outvoted. In reference to Clause 9, he might observe that hon. members might be summoned ; and it might be found that the joint chamber consisted of very disproportionate members. The only remedy for this would be a call of both Chambers. The Council never dealt, and never had dealt with money Bills that-came within the peculiar scope of the other Chamber. Referring to Clause 13, the Bill interfered with the powers of the Council. With regard to the amendment, ho would observe that in the consideration of this matter they might be carried away by their feelings, and say things that they might have to regret. He believed the fate of the. Bill would be that it would be in a minority. He thought the .committee should draw up resolutions showing cogent reasons why the Bill should not be passed. They would then have something more than Hansard to refer to, as an expression of their views. An attempt had been made to alter the constitution of the Chamber, and it behoved them to bo on tbeir guard. In deference to the views of the Council, be had chosen the ballot instead of nomination. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON did not see the utility of referring the Bill to a select committee. Hon. gentlemen could give their reasons for voting as they felt disposed. The Hon. Colonel BRETT hoped that those who intended to vote against the Bill would vote against the amendment also. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN deprecated the system of referring Bills to a select committee, when set down for second reading. The Hon. Mi’. BONAB was prepared to vote for a committee, but it now appeared to him that by voting for the committee it would seem to express an ' opinion that change was desirable. The Hon. Mr. MBNZIES addressed a few observations to the Council which were inaudible. The Hon. Dr. GRACE thought the Bill was one of too great importance to receive a « happy despatch!’ from tho Order Paper. He thought Government, in bringing forward the measure, had made some important cessions to the opinion of tho Council. He thought if they rejected tho Bill they ought to do so for certain specific and well-defined reasons. Tho Council ought to appreciate tho compliment intended to be paid them by extending to tho Council tho power of altering money Bills.

The Hon. Mr. PATERSON was much inclined to support the amendment. He had no ivish that the Council should give the Government reason to complain of their action. The Council had expressed their opinion before. He thought the best way would be to draw up in a concise form tbe opinions of the Council on the measure. It would save a long debate, and that continual “nagging” which tends to injure its influence. He should vote for the Bill being referred a select committee. The Hon. Mr. ..MANTELL thought that after the distinct expression of opinion'last session, it would have been a wiser plan to have appointed a select committee at the beginning of the session, to take the subject into consideration, and suggested that the second reading should be rejected, and then a select committee appointed to take into consideration the best means of preventing “ dead-locks. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY suggested that, as the Bill would have to be discussed in committee, there was no reason to refer it to a select committee. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES said that as there were forty-five members of Council, and seventy-five in the House of Representative, the Council would he outvoted. The remedy for this was the insertion of a clause that at no future period should the number of members of tiie Council be less than two-thirds of the other Chamber.

The Hon. Mr. GRAY should vote for the course indicated by Colonel Kenny, in order that they might not lay themselves open to a charge of discourtesy by throwing out the Bill.

The Hon. Mr. HART said that as it had been assumed that it would be discourtesy to vote against the motion, without stating the reasons for doing so, he would briefly state his. Up to the time tif His Excellency opening the present session, he was not aware that there was any ground of complaint. He thought that the Constitution had worked so well, it would be undesirable to alter it. No reason bad been given for the introduction of this BiU. He suggested that it was not competent for the . Governor to put in clauses in the Appropriation Act foreign to the general policy. Should the amendment be carried, instructions should be given to tbe Committee to ascertain tbe number of petitions or the amount of demand on the part of the Colony for such measure.

The Hon. Dr. POLLEN suggested that the Council should pronounce their opinion. Let them say “Aye,” or “Nay.” Let them pass the second reading, then appoint a select committee. Let the Council say openly what their opinion was, and not seek to evade such expression by referring it to a select committee.

The amendment was lost by 23 to 10. The Hon Mr. MENZIES resumed the debate in the evening. He thought the object of the Bill would be to neutralise the opinion of the Council by the greater number of members of the House of Representatives, as the question did not state the proportion of members of either Chamber. The result would be that the Council would not be able to maintain its own opinion. The remedy for the dead-lock as proposed by the Bill was to disarm the Legislative Council. After what had occurred last session, he fancied that had the Government contemplated any change, the idea would have taken a different shape. The most important function of the Second Chamber was to check hasty legislation. When a dominant power did exist in representative institutions it was right that the State should have a check upon it, and he thought that the Council should not give up one jot of its powers. It appeared to him that the Bill was calculated to undermine the influence of the Council. If after resisting a Government measure one session the Government could summon a joint Chamber they would be outnumbered. He did not consider the Council incapable of improvement, and he for one would concur in any measure to effect any improvement that was thought desirable. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE did not view the Bill with the same feelings of apprehension as many members seemed to do. Its effect would be the reverse of what was anticipated. He looked upon the Bill as a piece of “bunkum” wherewith to make political capital. There had been no resolution against the Council, but on the contrary, the Colony at large, and the Press in particular, appreciated the action of the Council. The fact that the measure was not introduced until two-thirds of the session had elapsed was sufficient proof that Ministers were not sincere. In two succeeding sessions there had been only one measure rejected by the Council that had been passed by the other Chamber. That was not a sufficient reason for endeavoring to bring about great constitutional changes. He should vote for the amendment of the Hon. Mr. Campbell. The Hon. Ur. thought he must have been particularly unfortunate in his attempt to describe the policy of the Bill. Ho single member had attacked that. He had narrowed the discussion as much as possible. He had shown that the Bill did not interfere with the constitution of the House, but only its action when a contingency that had ncv,er occurred should arise. He observed that there had been what he might without offence call a selfish view taken. Hon. members seemed to think of nothing beyond the House. Notwithstanding the serenity of the political atmosphere to which he had referred, if a case of difference arose the majority would be very small The unanimity of the Council was remarkable, and were it not known that the measures passed by them might be rejected by the Council, this would be the case in the other Chamber. They had heard much about the quorum. In order to provide for the conduct of business it was necessary that a certain number of members should be present, but before a question could be decisively settled a certain number would have to vote. All this might be altered in committee. He was not in the habit of dealing in bunkum ; when he spoke he addressed himself to the Council, and not to anyone out of doors. It is quite true that there had been no public expression of opinion on the subject ; but he held that the time best suited for introducing the measure was one of political quiet like the present. On division, the amendment was carried by 25 votes to 8. DECEASED WIFE’S SISTER MAURI AGE BILE. The Hon, Mr. WATERHOUSE was convinced that the fate of his motion would not be arrived at by any arguments he could adduce, but by “ hard voting.” He had tried all kinds of arguments with hon. members, but they had failed. The only argument that he would adduce was, that after a measure had passed the popular Assembly several times they should defer to its opinion. The Hon. Mr. STOKES moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months, and hoped Ids amendment would be carried by such a majority as would for ever extinguish the probability of its being brought forward again in that Council. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON in a few J}rie£ observations seconded the amendment. The Hon. Mr, GRAY thought the arguments in favor of and against the measure were very fairly balanced ; but as this measure was in the direction of liberty, he should vote for it. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL had supported the measure and would do so again, and although prejudice would have to bo overcome, the time would come when the measure would pass. The Hon. Colonel BRETT had promised his dear wife that he would vote against the measure as she had a handsome sister of whom she was jealous. (Laughter.) The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said they were bound to reflect that there was a strong public opinion, the growth of centuries,' against the object of the Bill. Ho was persuaded that if the Colony wero polled from one end to the other there would be a largo majority against it. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES entered at length into the Scriptural arguments against the Bill. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE briefly replied. On division the amendment was carried by 18 to 11. The Council adjourned at nine o’clock to the usual hour on Tuesday.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 31. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. ' leave op absence. On Mr. Gillies’ motion leave of absence for ten days was: given to Major Atkinson. Leave of absence was also given to Mr. Pyke. DISTRICT COURTS BILL. Mr. MERYYN, for Mr. White, asked the Premier, —“Whether it is,tbe intention of the Government to introduce this session the District Courts Bill, which passed this House last session.” Mr. RICHARDSON replied that there was no intention to introduce the Bill tins session. PATRICK BROWN’S PETITION. Mr. SHEEHAN asked,—“ Whether the Government will give effect to the report of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of Patrick Brown, reported on during the present session.” Mr. MoLEAN concurred with the latter part of the committee’s report, and the Government would give the petitioner compensation to the extent of £3O, on account of his selection being two acres short. PORT CHALMERS RAILWAY. Mr. MURRAY asked,—" Why the sums of £84,578 15s. and £6,398 19s. lid., mentioned in the tables attached to the Public Works Statement under the head of Dunedin and Port Chalmers RaUway, appear as payments which cannot be classified. Also, whether the payment for the purchase of the Port Chalmers Railway was made in cash, or in what other way ; and what is the amount now outstanding of the debentures originafiy issued for the construction of the fine." Mr. RICHARDSON was understood to reply that the reason why the amount of £84,578 and the smaller sum of £6393 had not been classified, was that the purchase of the railway was a matter of negotiation, and at the jn-esent time it would be mere presumption to classify them. No doubt, hereafter, when the Government had more time, it would be done. The smaller item was partly for interest and partly in reduction of some bonds which, according to the way they wore issued by the company, had to be drawn ‘ for every year. The railway was paid for partly in cash and partly by becoming responsible for the bonds issued by the company. He was not in a position to answer the latter part of the question further than to state that the Government had received information by cablegram that the whole matter was settled, by which he presumed tbe company had carried out its part of the arrangement, and the Government were now in a position to pay off the whole of the bonds. Mr. MURRAY enquired what provision there was for paying off the bonds ? Mr. RICHARDSON : By annual drawings of 21 per cent. LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILLS. Leave to introduce Bills was given as follows ;—-Mr. Steward— A Bill to amend sections 22 and 95 of tbe Bankruptcy Act, 1867, by providing for the appointment of additional provisional trustees, and authorising clerks of District Courts to preside at meetings of creditors ; Mr. White— A Bill to amend the AVestland Waste Lauds Act Amendment Act, 1873 ; Mr. Sheehan —Borough of Thames Mining Tramways Bill ; Mr. Richardson — Auckland Harbor Docks Bill ; Mr. V ogel —A Bill to amend tbe Regulation of Elections Act, 1870 ; a Bill to amend the Harbor Boards Act, 1870 ; and Mr. Sheehan —Highway Boards Empowering Act 1871 Amendment Bill. THE HONORARIUM -QUESTION. Mr. VOGEL moved, —“That a select committee be appointed to consider and report on the subject of members’ honorarium ; five to be a quorum. That such committee consist of Mr. Curtis, Mr. Cuthbertson, the Hon. Mr. Fox, Mr. G. B. Parker, Mr. McGlashan, Mr. Ormond, Mr. Pearce, Mr. Studhohne, Mr. Wales and the mover.” Agreed to. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT ABOLITION BILL. This Bill was recommitted to consider a number of additional clauses. Mi - . VOGEL explained that the power was given of committal to prison for a term not exceeding three months, oruntilpayment of the sum due of any person who makes default in payment of any debt or instalment of any debt due, from him in pursuance of an order of any of the Courts. Power was given to deal in respect of debts both over and below £lO. Except in tbe case of the Supreme Court, the power of committal was to be subject to the following restrictions ; fa.) Be exercised only by an order made in open Court, showing on its face the ground on which it is issued. (b.) Be exercised only in respect or a judgment or order not exceeding, exclusive of costs, such sum as is within the jurisdiction of tho Court or other tribunal to which application for committal is mado with regard to the recovery of debts. (c.) Be exercised only as respects a judgment or order of a District Court by a District Judge or his deputy, or by ft Resident Magistrate's Court or Court of Petty Sessions or two Justices exercising jurisdiction under the Resident Magistrates' Act, 18G7, or any Act amending tho same. (dj Be exercised only as respects tho judgment or order of a Resident Magistrate's Court or Court of Petty Sessions or two Justices of the Peace, exercising jurisdiction under tho Resident Magistrates’ Act, 1807, or any Act amending tho same, by a District Judge or hia deputy, or by a Resident Magistrate's Court or Court of Petty Sessions or by two Justices, exercising jurisdiction under tho last-mentioned Acts. In cases where judgments or orders of the Courts remained unsatisfied, power was given to examine on oath the debtor as to his estate and effects, and as to the property and means he has of paying, satisfying, and discharging such sum of money; as to tho disposal he may have made of any property; as to his intention to leave the Colony without paying such money as is still unsatisfied, or to depart elsewhere within tho Colony with intent to evade payment ; and as to the mode in which the' liability the subject of such judgment or order was incurred. The Court could order payment of the debt by instalments; committals were to be to the public prison; imprisonment was not to operate as extinguishment of the debt; and power was given to the Judge making the order of committal, “ if under the special circumstances of any particular case the Court or Judge shall think fit to do so,” to discharge from custody the person committed. The Bill was then reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed. STATE FORESTS. In resuming the debate on the above, Mr. SHEEHAN observed that the delay that had taken place in considering the Bill had somewhat damaged the prospect of the measure becoming law. He was convinced that the subject was of such importance as to justify the time and attention that had been given to it by the Premier. There was no question that tho problem of providing timber for the future was very important, and could not afford to be complacently left for a future generation. Some of tbe information in tbe papers presented to tho House was very valuable ; but a good deal of it was of no practical importance whatever. This Colony was many centuries ahead of some of the nations of Europe in its method of moving and carrying timber, the removal of logs, and in the matter of economically and more speedily converting trees into timber for local sale. Any member who was at all acquainted with tho method pursued in this Colony, and compared it witli the European system as disclosed by the papers, would admit the truth of his statement. The view taken by tho Premier of the pernicious effects of timber cutting was of too alarming a nature. His reason for believing this was because they had it in evidence that at one time all Eranco and tho greater part of Germany had been covered by dense forests, while they knew by statistics, by their own reading, and other sources of information, that tho effect of tho removal of those forests had been very much benefit to tho climates of those countries. Tho countries of Europe that contained tho smallest proportion of timber supply in proportion to their total area, were Italy, Greece, and Switzerland, which were looked upon as having the most favored climates. Ho questioned very much if climate was altogether affected by the timber supply of a country running short, and ho felt hound to express his conviction that the estimate that had been made of the rate of destruction of colonial timber, now going on, was very much overestimated. If he remembered rightly, it was estimated that from 1830 to 1861 or 1865 58 per cent, of the total timber

area of the Province had been destroyed, and from 18G4-j5 to the present time 27 per cent had been removed. He took leave to say that that was an exaggeration of from 300 to 400 per cent of the actual facts. Possibly he might not be putting the matter clearly ; then he would. use figures. According to the estimate of the Waste Land Commissioners of the Provinces, there were last year about four million acres of timber lands nothin the Provincial boundaries ; but, according to the figures in one of the papers laid on the table, there would have been at least twelve million acres of timber lands out of a total area of seventeen million acres. There were plenty of living European witnesses in the Province that such a state of things did not exist. He had not been an unobservant traveller through the Province of Auckland; and he felt bound to express his belief that a very small portion of the timber area had been removed within the last thirteen and fourteen years. It was just possible that there might have been similar exaggerations in respect of the figures and statistics relating to other Provinces. The scheme was to preserve the native forests and to plant new. He took leave to say that any attempt to preserve native timbers would result in failure. The thing was impossible. He did not profess to be able to explain the reasons why the law which seemed to operate when the white and brown races came into contact, that the brown must sooner or later give way, operated also in the case of Native timber. The moment European settlement approached, so soon as cattle got access to, or European plants penetrated the original bush, the native timber decayed. He could not imagine for a moment that any experiment for the preservation of native timber could result satisfactorily, unless, indeed, they either fenced in all the native forests or made the people running cattle and sheep on the face of the two islands keep their sheep and cattle within fences. Let them take the larger alternative first. He made bold to state that any law by which proprietors of sheep had to fence the animals out of Government forests would have a disastrous effect. Take the other alternative, the proposal for fencing in native forests would certainly require a larger amount than £IO,OOO to cover it. Another feature of attempting this matter on a large scale would be its immediate effect in restricting the large timber trade of the Colony—a matter that more concerned the North than the South Island. He felt certain that in any attempt to interfere to a large extent with the present forests, to cut off the supply of the timber market for a few years, the effect on Auckland would be much as if the public works in the Province were now stopped. The effect of placing restrictions on using our native timber would lead to this result amongst others, to cause other Colonies, America, and the larger islands of the South Pacific, suclr as .New Caledonia, or where timber abounds, to send their timber here and sell it at prices which the local timber dealers would not be able to compete against. While he was most desirous, and trusted that steps would be taken to prevent the destruction now going on, yet he thought any Bill which would have the effect of preserving our timber at the expense of a large industry, that was the means of giving employment to a great many persons, employed a large number of vessels, and supported a considerable export trade, would be a very questionable benefit indeed. While he was second to no member of the House, to admit the importance of the subject, and in expressing his sense of the thorough earnestness with which the Premier had brought himself to the task, he could not share theopinionthatran through the Billand the proposals accompanying it, that the prospect of the total destruction of our Native timber was so imminent as to necessitate the talcing of steps to prevent such destruction on such a scale as this Bill proposed. He would give an instance of one of a number of mills in the Province of Auckland, where it was usual in the course of a week to turn out a quarter of a million of feet of timber. At these sawmills, kauri logs were converted into planking and scantling in a very short time, yet near that mill was sufficient bush for a thirty-five years’ supply of timber; and other mills were similarly situated. And ovey. and above that, there remained ah immense percentage of the acreage of the Province covered with timber of that kind. That being the case, he took leave to say that the time had hardly come, in respect of Native timber, to enact a measure of this thorough-going and sweeping character. Speaking .of the North Island and the assumed effect of the destruction of timber upon the climate of the country, he said he believed the fern, ti-tree, and other- scrub which had covered the face of the country had more effect upon the climate, in causing rain, retaining moisture, and preventing floods, than our large timber, and the destruction of that low growth and scrub had a far greater, effect upon the climate than the destruction of the forest timber. It was not too soon to take measures to preserve our forests to a certain extent, but the question remained to what extent ? He was prepared to admit that up to the present time the Provinces that had vast timber lands had allowed themselves to be deprived of their estates by private speculators, at rates utterly below their proper value. In the Province of Auckland until lately any person could go into a bush, upon payment of £5, and cut, as many trees as he Uked, when many of .the single trees cut down were worth £5. It seemed almost incredible. And he believed a somewhat similar system prevailed in other Provinces for some time past. He was happy to say that another system now prevailed in Auckland in reference to disposing of its timber lands. He intended to vote for the second reading, but if it were intended to carry it through committee he should have voted for a considerable number of the clauses as they now stood, reserving to himself the right to vote against others. He suggested that the Premier should be satisfied with having submitted such a large proposal to the consideration of the country, accept the House agreeing to its second reading as an assurance that it was prepared to work cordially with him m carrythrough the Bill next session, and postpone further consideration, before the second reading, till next session. Mr. TRIBE opposed the Bill, thinking General Government interference with the matter unnecessary. Mr. CUTHBERTSON hoped the Government would not push the measure through this session. Mr. CARRINGTON supported the second reading, and suggested that the best means of arriving at information about the forests in the Provinces would be to send the Bill to the Superintendents of Provinces—(hear) —who should be called upon to furnish to the House the fullest information, together with a map showing the existing forests, and to suggest what forests should be reserved. Mr. Bryce and Mr. Gibbs opposed, and Mr. O'Nf.ill and Mr. Wales supported the Bill. EXPLANATION. Mr. WOOD, on the House resuming in the evening, called attention to a letter by Mr. Creighton, M.H.R., in that evening’s Post, and gave his authority for stating what he did of Mr. Creighton in the debate on the Qualification of Electors Bill. When he returned to Auckland last session there was a great deal of feeling manifested by many of the electors of the district of Eden, which Mr. Creighton represented, and of which constituency he (Mr.. Wood) was a member, with regard to Mr, Creighton not having been present during a considerable portion of last, year’s session. Mr. Barton Ireland, a gentleman well know in Auckland, and also a member of the constituency, who, in 1871, nominated Mr. Creighton, said to him that it was the intention of himself, and the gentleman who seconded Mr. Creighton, to write to the latter upon the subject. That gentleman also told him, that ho had -written to Mr. Creighton, asking what course he intended to adopt. Some time afterwards, he met Mr. Ireland, and asked him if he had received any answer from Mr. Creighton, and'he replied that that gentleman’s answer was, that he had no intention of resigning. He thought that quite sufficient foundation for what ho had said in the debate the other evening. STATE FORESTS —RESUMED DEBATE. Sir J. 0. WILSON supported the Bill, and Mr. McGILLTVRAY said the work of conserving forests should left to the Provinces,

Mr. STAFFORD observed that, with one exception, a universal meed of praise had been offered to the Premier for the diligence with which he had got up the subject, and the manner in which he had brought it before the Assembly. At the same time with two exceptions, so far as he was aware, hon. members expressed that they merely wished to see the Bill read a second time, and then allow it to pass away like a peaceful slumber, as a Bill should do that merely pleased a hobby of the person who introduced it, and would have no practical result. He could not think that would be satisfactory to the hon. gentleman; and he took leave to say that it would not be satisfactory to the country. Either those members who advocated that course were not in earnest, or they were playing with the subject in a manner that was not worthy of their position as representatives ; nor was it a course that the constituencies had a right to expect from members when a very large and important national question was affected. When he heard hon. gentlemen say that the Bill should be read a second time this year, and not be proceeded with further, but that on some future occasion, when it had more information before it, the House would then be prepared to consider the subject further, he asked, knowing the habits and positions of mumbers, whether they believed that the Legislature would on any future occasion be better informed, or be better prepared to consider the subject than at the present moment. If they waited for a few additional months, they might get a little local experience of what was going on before their eyes, though some members lived almost out of sight of forests altogether, while other members lived in the neighborhood of the natural woods of the country, but there would be no further information than what they already had, even if they kept their eyes open to the fact that whilst there was a very great and marked destruction and disappearance of timber, there was nothing like a detailed process in operation to replace the timber that was now disappearing. While ho was convinced of the advisability of some such measure as this being put on the Statute Book of New Zealand at as early a day as possible, he was quite prepared to admit for the sake of argument that every clause was susceptible of amendment and improvement after at least some months, if not a year or two's, experience of it at work, yet he was prepared to carry the Bill exactly as it stood, accepting it as the basis of a statute. He believed our national wealth could not be guarded unless by means of some such measure as was now before them. They were expected to jump Minerva-like full grown, with experience which was never to be had unless they began to try what could be done in this matter. This Bill enabled them to commence that trial; and why not do so now? Why be contented with attempting to soothe the feelings of the Premier,-for bestowing so much attention on the question, by merely allowing the Bill to be read a second time, with the avowed intention of not proceeding further. He trusted that was not the intention of the hon. gentleman himself, and he could hardly think it could be. Having given so large attention as he had evidently done, as appeared by the papers—papers that would be taken up in the future as the basis of text-books on the subject, so well had they been got, up—he could not think that the Premier had done so merely for the purpose of pleasing a few members who would allow the second reading, with the intention of doing no more with the question. What had been the great objections raised to the measure ? They might be summed up -under three heads, and one of them was that it interfered with the Provincial authorities, and the word—Province—had been drawn in as if the Provinces were some little God Almighty inherent power for the interests of the people of the country. He took leave to say, as he had done on several occasion before, that the less they heard of the Provinces and more of the' people of New Zealand, their legislation would be more beneficial to the inhabitants. (Hear.) The Provinces, by which he supposed was meant Provincial Governments, had large and useful functions, but hitherto they had almost markedly refrained taking any action in regard to this question. There was only one of them—and it had been that Province amongst Provinces .which was most distinguished in taking action to the advantage of the bulk of ’the inhabitants—the Province of Otago, that had shown itself at all alive to this question. Otago, in answer to the Colonial Secretary’s circular, had supplied valuable information on the subject, accompanied by a large array of statistics and figures as to the acreage and character of the forests of the Province ; but the other Superintendents had somewhat dismissed it as a kind of impertinent suggestion, which they were bound to reply to contemptuously. One Province (Wellington) dismissed the question by saying that the best mode of conserving the forests was to alienate them at once, in order that the timber might be brought into the market. And with regard to the word conservation, he thought a great misapprehension was felt in regard to its meaning as used by the gentleman at the head of the Government. , He did not believe that the Government intended that no timber should be cut. There was a difference between conserving forests as a whole and allowing individual portions of forests from time to time to be brought into the market. The papers laid before the House gave minute accounts of the process, in Germany, and showed that while conservation of the forests went on there, there was produced a regular supply for the market, and he begged leave to say that that was the mode of conserving State forests! intended by the Premier when he used the words conservation of forests. The member for Rodney, with a boldness and pluck creditable to young New Zealand, said the sawmills of Auckland were in advance of Germany in everything. (Laughter and cries of “ No.”) Mr. SHEEHAN explained that he mei-ely said Auckland was in advance of Germany in the conversion of timber into' a marketable article.

Mr. STAFFORD did not pretend to have the local knowledge tho member for Rodney might have of the mode adopted in tho Province in which he lived, but he was prepared to admit that if there were more improved appliances in 'Auckland for transferring the timber into a marketable value than were in use on the continent of Europe, arid particularly in Germany, then they were more advanced in that part of tho Colony than ho was prepared to expect. (Laughter). Tho fact was that in Auckland as in other Provinces, the great object on the part of those who had approached our natural woods was to get all the timber they could into the market. Had they taken any means whatever to supply a growing stock to replace the timber removed? (An hou. member ; No.) The “no” he heard was perfectly unnecessary. They all knew that, and did not care to be assured of the fact. They knew that the forests had been out down recklessly as regarded the future. He was free to admit that it was to the pecuniary advantage of those who cut them, as regarded the present. The object of the Rill was not merely the present pecuniary advantage to the people now in the country, but to supply New Zealand with timber in the future ; to create forests where they did not exist, and to maintain to a certain extent where they did, exist woods so distributed and disposed as that the future inhabitants of the country might have the climatic and commercial advantages which a large and liberal supply of growing woods invariably bestowed on any country where they existed. Ho was perfectly convinced that if tho Legislature did not make provision in tho direction this Bill contemplated, those who hereafter lived in the country would find districts largely destitute of timber where timber was desired. The two objects of the Bill were—one to maintain to a certain extent existing forests ; the other to create new woods. The hen. member doubted tho practicability of creating now woods. Without affecting any experience on the subject more than a purely theoretical knowledge, he believed that it was very much easier to create now woods than to maintain indigenous woods. (Hear.) Objection had been taken to having the forests scientifically treated. Ho said the whole measure would be a failure without it. He know the prejudices members might have in favor of what were called practical men, whose knowledge went very little further than the length of their

noses, and whose experience might enable them by rule of thumb to carry out a course of practice, the scientific reasons for which they were utterly unable to trace. Something more than that was wanted. He wanted to know whether our hill-sides and valleys, as in other countries in nearly the same condition, would not maintain a large source of natural wealth. But, even assuming that it was found from experience, which he was not prepared to admit, that it was impossible to use for commercial purposes our indigenous forests, there were certain portions of the forests that it was highly necessary should be conserved, if only for climatic reasons. These forests, it was desirable to conserve if possible, though they did not desire a single shilling's worth of advantage from them. The Bill ought to be passed this session, because there was really no other important question occupying attention. He did not want it passed in such a shape as that it would remain permanently upon the Statute Book, but in a shape that would be the ' basis for future action of a beneficial character in the direction in which the Act contemplated. He could only believe that many hon. members who had spoken had either not read the papers, or did not believe in them. Ho hon. member who had spoken said he did not believe in the statements therein contained ; but on one or other of the horns of the dilemma must they be. Either they were bound to say they rejected the papers as being not sufficiently trustworthy, or else they had not read them at all. He ventured to say there was to be found most conclusive evidence of the beneficial working of such a system as the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, very largely to his credit, had attempted to introduce into this country. They were told that it would interfere with Provincial Governments. He said it would be an unfortunate thing for the Provincial Governments if, upon a question that on its own merits would be for the advantage of the people of New Zealand, they stood in the way of those advantages being obtained. (Hear.) It would be an unfortunate and an unwise position for them to take up. And if able and willing to take it up, would they do so ? Why had they not done it hitherto ? But they knew very well without askingwhattheProvincialjGovernments thought on the subject; they knew that some Provinces could unquestionably take it ; but that other's could not, not from want of inclination but want of means. Otago and Canterbury having pecuniary means were well able to establish the administration that might be necessary to conserve a portion of the state forests, hut they knew just as well that other Provinces were no more able to do so without the assistance of the country as a whole, than a new-horn child. A system which, from the largeness of its character, should be national and effectual, would lead to isolated and intermitten action if undertaken by one or two of the Provinces only. He was not going to argue details ; many parts of the Bill were susceptible of improvement, and he felt perfectly certain that, if placed on the statute book in its present shape, it would, after a few months’ or a year's working, be found that considerable amendments could be made; but what he wanted was to see a beginning. He trusted the Premier would inform the House at the earliest possible opportunity whether he really wished to proceed with the Bill this session. There had been growing up a feeling-—he did not know how it originated, or that there were any grounds for it—that the hon. gentleman would be pei'feotly satisfied with the Bill being read a second time, and not proceeding further with it. He hoped that would not be the case, because no very large question was proposed by a Government, unless it strongly felt it desirable that effect should be given to it. The hon. member should take the earliest opportunity of assuring the House that he was in earnest in wishing that some such measure should be placed upon the statute book. If the Government was not in earnest the House was only wasting time, and it would be better to proceed to the next question on the Order Paper. Mr. VOGEL observed that in his remarks in introducing the Bill, he said it was possible the House might not be inclined to proceed with the Bill this session, hut he expressed a most earnest hope that such would not be the case ; and that the House would be inclined to proceed with the Bill He had now to state that the feeling with which the Bill had been received, not only in the House, hut in the country, and the evidences he had had of the warmth of the feeling in favor of the establishment of State forests throughout the Colony, the Government desired most earnestly that the Bill should become law during the present session (hear) and would use every exertion to obtain that end. Mr. STAFFORD said the Premier’s reply was indicative of the earnestness of the Government in submitting such a large question for -consideration. He trusted the Government would proceed with the Bill, and not be too sensitive as to any amendments that might be proposed, assuming the amendments were bona fide and with the intention of carrying out the intention of the measure. He trusted also the Premier would be quite prepared to consult with and invite the' co-operation of the Provincial authorities in the matter. If the Provincial authorities were sincere their co-operation would bo most valuable to the General Government ; on the other hand, if they showed themselves antagonistic, then it would be for the House to consider what its position was towards Provincial Governments in respect of any measure that affected the good.of the people of the Colony. But ho had every hope the Provincial authorities would be found most earnest co-operators in giving effect to a measure of this sort. He had no doubt of the ultimate result of the scheme. Although it might require £IO,OOO to be expended in ten years without any return being received, they would not lose anything like so much, because long before the expiry of the ten years, provided there had been due management, the product of the forest would have considerable marketable and commercial value. We were engaged in large railways, and had to import foreign timber for sleepers. Then they had been told that there was no necessity to create forests, because there were millions of trees going to waste. There was a great deal of timber wo could not avail ourselves, of because either of its inaccessibility, or not being of of great commercial value, but he believed ■with proper management of the woods already in the country, we might depend upon it altogether for many years to come, especially for hooping our railways in repair. The member for Wanganui said “ Let the people alone,” but it was that leaving the matter to private persons that resulted in our having to go to Oregon for railway sleepers. The hon. member concluded by saying that in attempting to conserve our forests we must have the assistance of men with the scientific knowledge which some hon. members affected to despise. The Bill was eminently fitted to carry out the object in view, and if for five or six years £IOO,OOO was wasted, still the experiment was one which it was of that Legislature to attempt. (Cheers.) Mr. Reader Wood and Mr. Pitzherbert spoke in opposition to the Bill ; and, on the motion of Mr. Murray, the debate was adjourned till Tuesday.