PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4156, 16 July 1874, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, July 15. Tlie Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 o’clock. AUCKLAND AND MERCER RAILWAY. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,—“ What amount of railway plant has been ordered (in addition to that ordered in July, 1873,) for the Auckland and Mercer Kailway, and what quantity is on its way for that line. Also, whether it is a fact that it will require nine or ten engines to work the line ; and how soon it will be open to the public as far as Papakura or Drury.” He wished to claim the indulgence of the Council in giving his reasons for asking this question, and he hoped he would be allowed to quote two or three paragraphs from one of the leading newspapers of the Colony, which was generally considered to be a Government organ. He also begged to say that in asking the question he had no intention of annoying the Government in any way whatever, and that he did not do so in opposition to the Government. On the contrary, he wished to elicit information for the benefit of the public, and, rather than to check the Government in any way, to forward their operations. He would like to give one or two quotations from a newspaper. The Hon, the SPEAKER said the hon. member would scarcely be in order. Only so much could be said in putting the question as to enable the Hon. Colonial Secretary to reply to it. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN said he did not wish to introduce anything which would cause debate. He learnt that the Onehunga line was paying its own expenses, and even more than that—it was yielding at the rate of £B4OO a year surplus. That was equal to about £IOOO a mile per annum. Now, if that were the case, it could not but be desirable that the line should be opened to Mercer as soon as possible, because if the short line to Onehunga was paying at the rate of £IOOO per mile, the Mercer line, which would be forty-seven miles long, would return £47,000 per annum. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN asked if he understood his hon. friend to say that the newspapers said so ? The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN said it was what he had learnt. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN submitted, with great respect, that it was hardly fair to place him in the position of having to answer newspaper statements. The Hon. the SPEAKER intimated tq the hon. member that he must not introduce debateable matter. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN said he would content himself by simply putting the question. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN in reply, said he was sorry he had interrupted his hon. friend, because there was a portion of the question which, without some kind of explanation, was entirely unintelligible. He was not aware that he could say whether “it is a fact that it will require nine or ten engines to work the line.” Perhaps his lion, friend would be good enough to tell him what was meant by such a question ? The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN said he had been informed that there was only one engine on the way from .England, in addition to three which were already on the line ; and as it was contemplated to open the line at as early a date as possible to Mercer, those three engines could not possibly carry on the traffic of the line. He was desirous of knowing whether more engines were expected. He had been told that it would take nine or ten engines altogether to work the line from Auckland to Mercer. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said he had that day laid upon the table returns relating to these railways, and he was quite prepared, farther, to lay upon the table any returns of specific information which his hon. friend, or any other hon. member, desired. If he would in a motion for these papers, specify what it was he wanted, it would give him a much better opportunity of discussing even the opinions of newspapers than could possibly be afforded on the present occasion. He could not at that moment say what particular quantity of railway material was on the way for the Auckland and Mercer railway line. But he ventured to say this generally ; that he relied so entirely upon the admirable management of that department, by the Minister who presided over it, that he might venture without specific knowledge to assure his hon. friend, that if the contractors did their duty no inconvenience would result to the public through the’non-completion of the contract. Abundant material would be found for the completion of the line, if the contractors used sufficient expedition to finish the -work within the prescribed time. As to the question whether or not nine or ten engines would be required to work the line, he could only answer that in the words of Lord Dundreary, “No fella can tell;” it depended so much upon circumstances over which neither himself nor Ms hon. friend had any control. RAGLAN COAL DISTRICT. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,—“ If the geological survey which has been recommended to be made of the Raglan Coal District has been made ; and if not, when it will be made.” Last year he asked the Hon. Dr. Pollen whether it was the inteution of the Government to have a geological survey made of the same ; and what measures, if any, are intended to be taken in order to make it available! The hon. gentleman replied as follows : —“ There was no objection on the part of the Government to the production of the correspondence, from which it would be found that a geological survey had been recommended to be made of the locality in which the discovery was reported to have taken place.” The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said that the reason why the promised survey had not taken place was that the department under charge of the Geological Surveyor had been shorthanded during the present year, and that the time of Dr. Hector himself had been so completely occupied with other work that it was impossible for him to give special attention to that particular qiart of the country in the North. But he proposed to do so as soon as possible. TELEGRAPH TO RAGLAN. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN, it was ordered, —“ That all correspondence relative to a proposed extension of the telegraph system to Raglan be laid upon the table.” marriage' LAW. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said this was a very simple Bill, simply providing that all marriages performed in British possessions should be recognised as legal in New Zealand. He thought, and had expressed his opinion, that it was inconvenient that there was no uniformity of law on this question in Her Majesty’s dominions. It was only in accordance with the Imperial sentiment that marriages valid in one part of Her Majesty’s dominions should he so in all others. A different opinion degraded the prevalent idea as to the sanctity (if the marriage rite. If a man married in one Colony, could by coming to tMs Colony ignore his former marriage and marry again, and be uncompromiaed, it was not unlikely if this system prevailed that great social scandals would frequently arise. On that ground he brought forward the Bill, the aim of which he -wished to be regarded as of an Imperial nature. He must, however, remark that with reference to the objections of members of religious denominations, he could not believe anyone holding the catholicity of the Churches, could say that priests and members were prepared to ignore marriages duly performed in other countries in accordance with the of the country by priests of their own denomination. A man should not bo allowed practically to commit bigamy, without punisMuent. The Hon. Colonel BRETT thought the measure must remove any former unfavorable impression, dictated as it was by moral spirit, and not to be discountenanced. They all knew the horror of a man married in one Colony coming to this and committing a crime of so great enormity as bigamy without punishment.

The Hon. Mr. HANTELL thought in so grave a question the Council should express no more undecided opinion than in previous sessions. Ho did not wish to vote for or

against the Bill, and would move the previous question. The Hon. the SPEAKER said that moving the previous question was not admissible in the case of Bills, which were generally disposed of by a motion to read them a second time at some indefinite period. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL would move that the second reading he postponed sine die. The Hon. Mr. STOKES, speaking to the amendment, said the effect would be to “ scotch the snake, not kill it.” The question had been decided last session emphatically. The reason alleged by Mr. Waterhouse for the change was the necessity for the assimilation of legislation on the subject. If it were passed, next session they would, have to pass a Bill legalising marriage .with a deceased wife’s sister, to which the present Bill was so great a stepping stone. As for the argument of Imperial sentiment, when the law was changed in England it would be 'time to change it here. The question was too deep to be entered on so lightly. He was afraid his hon. friend would find it a labor of Sisyphus—an “ endless work, a fruitless task, a labor in vain.” The Hon. Captain ERASER opposed the amendment. The Hon. the SPEAKER said the question was whether the word “now” should stand part of the question. If that were carried, the second reading would be carried ; if not, the amendment of the Hon. Mr. Mantell would be before the question. If the motion was negatived, the Hon. Mr. MantelTir amendment became the main question, and was open to amendment. The Hon. Mr. STOKES moved as an amendment, —“ That the Bill be read a second time this day six mouths. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE would state that the object of the BUI was not to legalise illegal acts. There was nothing about “ deceased wife's sister” in it. It was brought .forward on broad and general grounds, but had not been recognised as such. Hon, members had got it into their heads that it related to “deceased wife’s sister,” but there was no intention to ask them to discuss that question. He only asked that marriages legaUy performed in any part of Her Majesty’s dominions should be valid in New Zealand ; nay, he would go so far as to say that marriages legally performed in any part of the world should be valid in New Zealand. The Hon. Captain ERASER suggested the Samoan law, that if a man lived with a woman for a year and a day they became lawfully man and wife. , The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said that hon. members ought to have seen that the law in •Adelaide authorised marriage with a deceased wife’s sister, and also with his niece. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE denied the statement emphatically. An Hon. Member.- —His deceased wife’s sister’s niece. (Hear, Hear). The Hon. Dr. POLLEN would give his vote asamemher of the Council and not as a represeu--tative of the Government. They should not legislate partially on such a subject. One of the advantages urged for the BUI was that it would lead to social scandals. If there were any particular scandal in view—(Mr. Waterhouse : No.) — he did not think even then they would be right in passing the Bill. The terms of the Bill were not so precise as they should be. ■ The second clause said that all marriages “ performed” in any one part of Her Majesty’s dominions should he legal witMu the Colony of New Zealand. The performance of a marriage, as there stated, might be held to be the ceremonial act, and that would not validate the marriage here. The BUI would provide a law for the rich of which the poor could not avaU themselves. He did not desire to see such a law in operation here. If passed, the Act would encourage parties desirous of making such a marriage to go to another Colony and evade the law of New Zealand. Even in the Colony where such a marriage was consummated, it might be considered invalid on the ground that the parties were not properly domiciled. On all these grounds he opposed the BUI. The question was then put,—“That the BUI be read a second time this day fortnight.” On a division ten members voted with the ayes, and ten with the noes. The Speaker voted ’ with the “ ayes,” that the BUI might be submitted to the whole Council, which would then have met. burial grounds. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL gave notice that to-morrow he would move for leave to bring in a bill to regulate burial grounds in the City of Wellington. INSPECTION OP MACHINERY. The Order of the Day for-the committal of this Bill was discharged from the Notice Paper, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. PoUen. EXPLANATION. The Hon. the SPEAKER explained that on reference to the journals of the House he found that the Court House BUI had been discharged from the paper on the carrying of the previous question. OFFENCES AGAINST , THE PERSON ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The CouncU then went Into committee on this BiU. An amendment was proposed on the • sixth clause, to substitute the word “ shall ” for the word “ may,” to make it imperative on a judge, in place of leaving it to Ms discretion, to pass sentence of flogging in cases of indecent assault. The amendment was negatived by 14 to 3. The BUI was reported without amendments. The third reading was made an order for next day. JUSTICE OP THE PEACE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. TMs Bill was passed through committee and reported. The third reading was made an order for next day. The CouncU adjourned at half-past three o’clock tiU tMs day. ,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, July 14. CONSERVATION OP FORESTS. [We continue our report of Mr. Vogel’s speech in moving the second reading of this Bill.] He now came more particularly to the question as it affected New Zealand. Among the papers would be found a calculation by X)r. Hector, showing the per-centage ■ of forest land in New Zealand, and its rate, of destruction during the years 1860, 1868, and 1873. He might say that Dr. Hector does not consider these figures anything more than mere approximations, and in many cases it was impossible to give anything like the exact figures. The abstract showed that, in Auckland, the destruction of forest amounted in 1868 to 58'75 ; in Taranaki it was 10'0 ; in Wellington, 20'0 ; in Hawke’s Bay, 60'82 ; in Nelson, 16'6; in Marlborough, 12'5 ; in Canterbury, 10'0 ; in Westland,- s'o ; and in Otago, 12 - 34. During the next five years there was a further destruction, which amounted in Auckland to 27'27 per cent. : Taranaki, 11T ; Wellington, 25'0 ; Hawke’s Bay, 30'5 ; Nelson, 20 - 0 ; Marlborough, 28 - 57 ; Canterbury, 33'3 ; Westland, 21'05 ; Otago, 10 - 71. Whether correct or not, these figures are very suggestive of what he thought every hon member must know to be the case, although we have not the power to see the practical effect throughout the Colony, the destruction of timber had gone on at a most alarming rate. There could be no question that natural bush was not so valuable as planted forest. In the Otago report was the following remarkable statement as to the value of artificial grown bush :—“ Tire ad. vantage of full grown artificial plantations would be that every single tree could be turned into the proper stuff—not one nineteenth, as is the case with the natural growth.” Another thing that was very remarkable to his mind was the proportionate care given to the management of State forests : the people as they became accustomed to the value of forests also became sensible of the necessity for protecting them from fire. In Germany it would be com sidered as heinous to set a forest on fire as to set a house on fire ; but in New Zealand a man would have little hesitation in lighting his pipe or boiling his billy of water, and a whole forest, extending over many thousand acres. He was not at all sure that the timber of New Zealand was so valuable as some people supposed ; but that some of it was exceedingly valuable he had no doubt. An argument that might be used was that in some places there existed large quantities of timbeiv “Oh,” some people would say, “timber is

in such quantity hero that wo are not aware of any legislation being necessary.” But forestry to as much the utilisation of existing forests ns the production of fresh ones. In "Westland, Taranaki, and Wellington, it might bo argued that there was already too much forest land; and forests required to be cleared. Putting aside for one moment the impolicy of recklessly destroying forests, experience shows the rapidity of their destruction. It was rather difficult to realise large numbers. Let them suppose they had placed before them extensive figures which only underwent a slight process of exhaustion ; or let anyone bo placed in a room where there were 100,000 sovereigns, he would hardly suppose that such a sum could be expended; but if he was connected with the Government of the country, he would soon form a very different opinion. (Laughter.) So with our indigenous forests. When the House came to consider that in the State of New York alone, 50,000 acres were required each year for railway use alone, it would be easy to understand how futile it was to speak of forests being inexhaustible, unless something was done in the way of replacing them. He said this on behalf of those Provinces which were well timbered; not only for timber but for climate, and pleaded for them , some alienation—it would be very small—as a forest estate for the whole Colony. Before dealing with the question of the establishment of State forests, the chief difficulty in entering upon such a large question was to reconcile the peculiar circumstances and interests of the Colony in a comprehensive system of management. The first question arising was, how was it to be dealt with by the Colony without infringing and invading Provincial rights to an extent that would make it impossible to be sanctioned by the Assembly. He had before now practically evinced his desire, and had never failed to do justice to the right of the Provinces, and to the usefulness of Provincial Governments; but he had never hesitated to express his opinion, that where it was necessary to do so for the good of the Colony as a whole, the Provinces must give way. He was convinced that New Zealand would be found to be similarly situated as India in regard to this forest question, where it was found necessary that it should be dealt with by the Central Government, and not by the Provincial ones. It would be unfortunate if such a country as New Zealand were not able to obtain the best skilled assistance, and they certainly could not hope to do so if the various Provinces were to have a separate ana independent forest department, if they so chose. He was glad to see a disposition now being shown by the various Provinces to attend much more carefully to the matter than formerly. Notably, in Otago and Auckland, a large amount of attention had been given to the frPH-pl.aiit.inor question, and he begged leave to think with beneficial results. He had thought over many plans of dealing with this question. Of course, they could have no forests -without land; and land was a matter about which.the Provinces were particularly tenacious. If the Colony expended the money, and the Provinces provided the land, there would be such a demand for expenditure as it would be impossible to meet. On the other hand, if the Colony spent the money and had the land, there might be a probability of some rigid' rule being laid down. It became evident, after full consideration, that the only way of settling the matter was to deal with the Provinces rateably and by a per-centage. He concluded that the following conditions were necessary to carry out any plan which was likely to receive the support of the Legislature. These were—first, that the scheme should be of a Colonial character: f.e., that so far as State forests are concerned, the Colony should have the absolute control of forests that should be developed into State forests, but the Government will avoid any action with existent forests which would be liable to disturb existing industries by stopping the use of the timber of the country required for current purposes ; and if this system became as successful as they imagined it would be, means were provided for including other forests under the same management. Several large Provinces had not hesitated to show their willingness to grant bonuses to private individuals in the shape of land for planting trees, therefore there could be no objection to give land to the State—the Central Government. However, they proposed that some more absolute inducement might be held out, and they came to the conclusion that it would be desirable, in proposing to take a certain amount of land in each Province, to give such Province quid pro quo in exchange. Until lately it had been the custom in connection with New Zealand accounts to set apart annually a sinking fund —a practice that was very much objected to, and latterly the fallacy of sinking funds had been understood in New Zealand. With the exception of some cases, in which such a process was necessary, they did not agree with sinking funds, but in the present state of the law, Provinces had to pay sinking fund on the cost of the railways. This was necessary because the Colony was responsible for their debts. A penny invested annually as sinking fund at something like five per cent., would give in the course of thirty-five years something like 150 times the original amount. So, in the course of time, State forests would possess an enormous aggregate value, and would be available for the purpose of extinguishing the public debt of the Colony. Acting upon that principle, the Government came to the conclusion that the Provinces should hand over to the Colony three per cent, of the whole of their lands, to be set apart as State forests ; and in return they would relieve the Provinces of interest and repayment of principal on the cost of constructing the railways. He thought it would be found on reckoning up the amounts which the railways would cost the Provinces, and the amount of the annual payment of one per cent, for sinking fund, that the exchange will be a very profitable one for the Provinces. He thought further that the proposal came particularly well from them to hand over State forests to those who came after them, and to say to them, “ We have borrowed money, by which we have covered the country with railways, and endeavored to create homes for a large population. We have taken care not to injure the climate, and we now hand to you these forests, which will more than pay the liabilities we have devolved on you.” It was very much the custom to compare what they did in this Colony with what was done elsewhere and it was an assertion that was amply borne out—and he believed that this Colony, as were other Colonies, was in a better position to deal with this question than many of the large countries of the world. Here we had land belonging to the State, entirely free and unencumbered, while the difficulties met with in Europe, and notably Germany, were in extinguishing various rights over the soil, and in the latter place large sums of money had been expended in purchasing land which interfered with the proper management of State forests. The object and scope of the measure he was proposing was to take land which was absolutely free, for State forests, and to apply to them in the best possible manner the benefits that experienced skill could devise. He would now direct attention to the provisions of the Bill. They proposed to take £IO,OOO a year from ! the Consolidated '.Revenue, to devote to, tree planting; and proposed to have the right to select three per cent, of the lands throughout the Colony for the purpose of conserving and creating State forests. The selection would be made under conditions which effectually—as it appeared to him—prevented the alienation for such a purpose of lands of exceptional value, or in approximation of towns. Among other things, provision was made for establishing towns in forests. No doubt, if the system came to be the success which it was desired to be, one of its most useful purposes would be to establish in connection with the forests of the Colony towns similar to those which had been so successful in the European countries to which he had referred. The whole of the money proposed to be taken from the Consolidated Revenue—£lo,ooo annually—would be placed at the disposal of the department for the purpose of planting and maintaining forests, and the department would also hold the revenues arising from the whole of the forests. With one exception, it was not proposed to expend any money without the authority of Parliament. The exception was in regard to the selection of the chief conservator of forests

and it was necessary to give the Governor power to appoint him for five years, and to appoint his two subordinates, because it was not possible to get men of sufficient knowledge and experience unless they were able to offer them more or less lengthy engagements. _ THs was the solitary exception. The provisions in the Bill preventing unfair selection, wou.d commend themselves to the minds of bon. members. Further, the Bill absolutely released the Provinces from all payment on account of sinking fund for the railways now being constructed under the Public Works and Immigration Act. Power was given, of a purely voluntary character, to arrange with Provincial- Governments for the management and acquisition of larger forests than those included in the area to be taken absolutely. This pari of the Bill depended much on the success attending the establishment of forests, as he had before said, and to that pari of the Bill there could not, he thought, be any valid objection. The hen. gentleman then spoke as follows ; I hardly think I need apologise for detaining the House so long. What I have to apologise for is inadequately dealing with the subject—dealing with it having very little real knowledge of it, except what I have by laboriously culling the knowledge and opinions of others, hut I desire to plead on behalf of New Zealand that whilst we are developing and improving the Colony by means of great public works, we should not lose sight of its great natural features, without which we cannot make attractive use of the country nor make it attractive as homes for the industrious. It is quite possible the House may not consider it desirable to decide this question this session. I admit it is one of a very large nature, but while the Government are anxious that it should be dealt with this session, we must feel almost a sort of pride and gratification if this Parliament, which has done so much in favor of the construction of public works, would make provision not only for those public works but for the means . of repaying them, and endow the future with what would no doubt be a most magnificent property,— more valuable than the railways themselves — which will not only preserve the value of the country, but provide means in the future for an industrious population. Whilst I cannot help thinking that it -would be wise on the pari of the Colony to deal with the question at once, the House may possibly think it desirable not to do so ; at any rate, no harm can come of the subject being ventilated, and some portion of the session, however short it may he, may be devoted to this very important question. It is the question of questions for New Zealand, so much so, that it is fairly a question whether in the absence of a system of replacing and taking care of our forests we ought to allow a single foot of timber to leave the Colony. We have enormous need for timber in the future ; are we to use and to forget that we are exhausting ? If we do deal with this question, let us be content with nothing but the very best plans, the most scientific treatment—that treatment which experience shows to he the soundest. I claim for New Zealand in this matter a something to cling to for generations, which shall shape its future, decide its climate, its adaptability for settlement, its economical value, its beauty, its healthfulness, its pleasure-bestowing qualities, I claim for it in this matter the best, the very best that we, its founders, can initiate. I see that between the rough-and-ready idea of unskilled planting, burning off stumps, and setting out nursery plantations—and that scientific care of forests I have indicated, including the planting, thinning, cutting, and transport of timber, con--struetion of roads and bridges, changing from one cultivation to another—in short, a disposition, not of the hour nor of the day, but of the generations, the ages, as in Germany and Scotland— as much difference as between the paper boats of boyhood and the grand ships with which Great Britain controls the commerce of the world. Recognising the vast gulf which separates the different modes of treatment, shall we allow the Colony to abide under the worst conditions, when it is in our power to favor it with the- best ? That is the question which this Bill asks you. (Cheers.) Wednesday, July 15, 1874. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. CANTERBURY TO WEST COAST RAILWAY'. Mr. J. E. BROWN asked,—-‘lf the Government had had a survey made to ascertain the best course for a railway to connect the West Coast of the Middle Island with the northern part of the Province of Canterbury : if not, when it was likely to be made.” Mr. RICHARDSON said the Government had not been able to undertake the survey of a line, for all the available engineering strength of the department had been so occupied that they could not attempt it. It ivas their intention, as soon as they bad a staff at their disposal, to survey a line through the Amur! Pass. AUCKLAND AND WAIKATO RAILWAY. Mr. WOOD in asking the Minister for Public Works—“ Whether it was the intention of the Government soon to open for general traffic the finished portion of the Auckland and Waikato Railway between the Penrose junction and the village of Otahubu” —said it was a matter of considerable importance that the line should be opened as early as possible, and it bad been finished for a great many months, Otahubu was not a mere roadside station, but a very important agricultural centre, and if the line were opened to that district, the traffic on the Auckland and Onehunga line would be nearly doubled. He supposed there was some very good reason for not having opened the line he had referred to, because the advantages of having it open were so very manifest. Mr. RICHARDSON would inform the bon. member that it would be exceedingly inconvenient that a portion of the line should be opened, owing to the ballast required for other portions having to be taken over miles of it. It would be impossible to commence traffic on it at once owing to the want of engine power, but be was not sure that the engines were not in the harbor of Auckland. If bo, when they were landed it would be a question whether arrangements could be made with the contractor of such a satisfactory nature as would warrant the Government in opening the line. If a satisfactory arrangement could be entered into, the line Yvould be opened shortly. IMPORTED MATERIAL. Mr. • MURRAY asked the Minister of Public Works, —“ When a return -would he laid on the table, showing the specific amount and costs of goods procured by the General Government in Europe.” On the 27th August last year he moved for a similar return, and the Minister for Public Works stated it would be impossible to furnish it during the session, but that one might he prepared during the recess. Ho withdrew the motion on that understanding, and he trusted the hon, member would be able to lay the return on the table within a few days. Mr. RICHARDSON reminded the hon. member that last session a return was laid on the table, giving the amount of material and cost of it, as imported by the Public Works Department; and a similar return was now in course of preparation, and would be laid on the table. He was rather at a loss to understand to what the question referred, and it would be bettor for the hon. member to make a specific motion, stating exactly what he wanted, and if it could be provided in any sort of reasonable time the Government would be glad to lay it on the table. OTAGO RAILWAYS. Mr. MURRAY asked the Minister of Public Works, —(1.) “ When the Dunedin to Clutha, and Tokomairiro to Tuapeka, Railways would be open for traffic. (2.) Had the owners of land taken for these railways been compensated; if not, why? (3.) Had provision been made to plant thorn quicks in the railway fences.” Perhaps the Minister for Public Works would also state what portion of the line would bo opened before the whole line had been completed. Mr. RICHARDSON thought the question was put in a very inconvenient form. The date fixed for the completion of the Dunedin and Clutha line was the Ist September, 1875 ; and for the Tokomairiro to Tuapoka, June, 1875; and ho had no reason to doubt that both would be completed within the contract time—the Dunedin and Clutha probably before the tweified date, It would be impossible to say

whether any portion would be opened, for absolute contracts had been entered into for their whole construction. Hie Government were only too anxious to have any lines made remunerative as soon as possible, and when any portions could be opened they would be. The owneis of the land taken had been compensated, io far as he knew, and those on the Clutha line bad been paid. On the Tokomairiro line arrangements had been made with most of the proprietors, but a good many of them were waiting for the completion of surveys, for they could not give transfers until they got titles. With respect to live fences, he would say it bad not been considered r ight to plant live fences until the line had been opened, on account of the great care the quicks required at first. WEBB’S PENALTIES. Mr. MURRAY asked the PostmarterGeneral if the penalties had been recovered from Messrs, Webb and Co. for non-fulfilment of the Californian mail contract. Mr. YOGEL said the penalties had not been recovered. When application was made for them Mr. Webb refused to pay, and the person to whom Mr. Webb had assigned the contract was said to be not able to pay. A s to whether any or what steps would bo taken, he Yvas not able to state positively, and he was waiting to ascertain from Mr. Thomas Russell, who had a personal knowledge of the matter, what proceedings it would be advisable to take. He might say the Government would not have any hesitation in enforcing the penalties if possible, but there was a question as to whether there was a reasonable prospect of success, and whether it w’ould be Yvorth risking the money an action for their recovery would cost. SETTLEMENT OF IMMIGRANTS. Mr. MURRAY moved, —“That, in the opinion of this House, Crown lands should be reserved or resumed in suitable localities for townships on -which to locate married immigrants ; that, where possible, commonages should be attached as an inalienable municipal estate ; that cottages should be erected in such townships ; and that sections, with or without cottages, should be open for purchase by immigrants on deferred payments.” He had been induced, he said, to bring the subject forward after a good deal of consideration, and the decision he had come to as to its desirableness had not been arrived at without a considerable amount of observation. He was glad to say that the gentleman at the head of the Government had, by a different way, arrived at the same conclusion. Seeing that the Government bad expressed a view similar to that which appeared in the motion, he trusted the resolution Yvould be looked upon by the House as strengthening the bands of the Government in the conclusion they had arrived at, which, if properly given effect to, would be of very great advantage to the country. It was very desirable that provision should be made for the permanent location of respectable body of immigrants. At present they were, to a great extent, dependent on a class of men who worked for two or three months and, on receiving a large amount of money as wages, went to the first hotel or shanty and spent their earnings on drink. Such a class of immigrants were of no advantage to the country, and of no benefit to themselves. He bad heard it stated that such a course of conduct was rather an advantage than otherwise, as if they did not spend the money iu the way indicated they would be buying land, employing labor, and keeping up the rite of Yva"es. He bad no sympathy whatever with such an opinion. He commended the subject to the attention of the hon. member for Raugitikei in preparing his new Licensing Bill. He trusted the House would agree to the motion, and thus strengthen the hands of the G ovemmeut in furtherance of this very much needed improvement. Mr. VOGEL opposed the motion, which, after brief discussion, was withdrawn. CLAIMS OF MIDDLE ISLAND NATIVES. Mr. TAIAROA moved, —“That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report on unfulfilled promises to Natives in the Middle Island ; three to be a quorum ; with power to call for persons and papers, and to report in three weeks. Committee to consist of the Hon. Mr. McLean, the Hon. Mr. Box, the Hon. Mr. Pai-ata, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. J. L. Gillies, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Williairs, Mr. Swanson, and the mover.” Mr. RICHARDSON intimated that the Government, while not opposing the motion, would propose the addition of some names to the Committee. The debate was adjourned till Wednesday next. Wanganui Bridge. Mr. BRYCE moved, —“ That there be laid on the table a copy of the report on the Wanganui river made by Mr. Blackett during the recess, together with all correspondence on the subject between the General Government and the Provincial Council of Wellington.” Agreed to. RETURN. Mr. McGILLIVRAY withdrew his motion for a return of the quantity of Coiouially distilled spirits on which duty had been paid or in bond from the commencement of Colonial distillation to March 31, 1874. SELECT COMMITTEES. Mr. O’RORKE moved, —“ That during this session Select Committees shall have leave to sit on days on which the House does nit sit.” Agreed to. CONTROL OF THE GALLERIES. The SPEAKER mentioned that the Reporting Debates Committee had requested to be relieved of the control of the galleries. THE WARD-CHAPMAN TELGRAM3. Mr. J. L. GILLIES moved, —“ That a committee be appointed to inquire it.,to questions arising out of the charges contained in certain telegrams and correspondence between Judge Ward and the Premier, laid upon the table of this House ; and further, to inquire into complaints that have been, or may be, made in regard to the publication in the Olayo Daily Times of 22nd May last of what professed to be copies of telegrams from Judge Ward to the Hon. Mr. Vogel; with poiver to call for persons, papers, and" records ; to report withm fourteen days, and that four of the committee be a quorum. The committee to consist of the Hon. Mr. O’Rorke, the Hon. Mr. Eox, Mr. Richmond, Major Atkinson, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Brandon, Mr. T. B. Gillies, Mr. Studholme, Mr. Wales, and the mover.” Mr. YOGEL asked the House to consider whether or not it was desirable that this select committee should bo appointed. There were two points which it ivas intended the committee should examine : one into the question of how the Daily Times procured certain telegrams ; the other as to the conduct of the judges. Ho believed there was some ’sort of ‘ apprehension that the inquiry would also comprehend the right to make accusations against a Judge ; that was to say that some penalty should attach to any person for making such a charge against a Judge, ivhich he was not able to prove. But that point might be at once, dismissed. The charge was made by Judge Ward as a private citizen, who complained of a certain line of action which affected him personally. It had nothing to do with his official position of District Judge; therefore, ho (Mr. Vogel) did not think official cognisance could bo taken of the fact of such charge having been made, even supposing that.it Yvas altogether without foundation. They could not possibly shut up a person holding an official position from exorcising his rights and privileges as a private citizen, and no punishment could bo imposed for action of that kind With respect to the aspect which was the most important one, as bearing upon Judge Chapman —did the House seriously wish this investigation to be made ? He thought it would be a great mistake. The Government had considered the matter very carefully, and came to the conclusion that the charge was so vague, that there was no need for any action being taken upon it. If the House determined otherwise, it would bo a sort of reflection on the course taken by the Government. He could not see, although the whole matter was a very sad one, and as was abundantly proved by the telegrams a very great mistake, any ground whatever for an enquiry. The matter should bo allowed to rest where it was, because even if an enquiry was made nothing more could bo elicited by the Select Committee. The House knew the charges that were made, that an order was issued by Judge Chapman ;

that Judge Chapman had a son who practised in Dunedin ; and that he was godfather to a child. These were the things got out, and was it desirable that a' Select Committee should form an opinion upon them. The House could do so for itself at once ; therefore, in his opinion; an examination of that part of the matter was unnecessary. He would also ask the House to pause, in respect to enquiring into the manner in which the Daily Times became possessed of these telegrams. He ridiculed the idea of blame being attachable to the Telegraph Department for the telegrams getting into the possession of the Times, and observed that there could be no doubt that primarily the information came from Judge Ward to himself. Subsequently it was telegraphed to Judge Chapman, and to a number of Ministers, the matter being the subject of a considerable amount of telegraphic communication. In fact, there were many ways in which the information could have leaked out, without blame being attachable to the Telegraph Department. Was if justifiable for the House to appoint a select committee with the extreme power of bringing the Editor or some other person connected with the paper to Wellington to appear before it, and saying to him that it was insisted that he should say who furnished the information to the paper ? It might be justifiable in some cases, but it was not in this. He would soouer let this public scandal, which every hon. member must regret, drop : any ulterior action could not possibly make the matter better, but might make it much worse.

Mr. LI7CKIE tmsted that no attempt would be made by the House to place itself in a position which would amount to seeking to disclose the private arrangements or otherwise of newspaper proprietors, and at once lead the House into the position occupied by the Victorian Parliament not long ago, when it was really defeated, as in most cases Parliament was. The matter between the two Judges had to some extent taken a legal position, and was already under consideration. Surely if it was imder the consideration of the Court the House was going largely out of its way to interfere. In matter's of the kind the law was always open, and it was well to let it take its course. Major ATKINSON had listened with considerable pain to the explanation of the Premier. He was astonished to hear the hon. gentleman say that one officer high in the public sendee could make a charge against another officer also high in the public service in his private character as a citizen. He would like to know if it was possible, for instance, if Mr. Judge Ward, Mr. Justice Chapman, or Mr. anybody else committed theft in his private capacity of citizen that he could tell that House that he did it merely in his private capacity, and, therefore, that it could not apply to him in his official capacity. The ground was entirely cut from under the Premier’s feet. The charge was either true or false. If true,. Judge Chapman must retire from the public service ; if false, Judge Ward must retire. Judge Ward understood perfectly well what he was about when he made such charges; he knew the value of words and the value of evidence. It would have been better to have had a Royal .Commission, even if men were obtained from Australia or England for the purpose, to investigate the charges ; but, after the reply of the Premier a Select Committee must be obtained. He hoped, however, that the Premier would reconsider his decision. Mr. VOGEL : The telegrams would have no influence upon Judge Ward in his official duties, and therefore he was of opinion still that they should be looked upon as exclusively from a private individual. Perhaps the hon. gentleman would be kind enough to allow him to say that when an officer makes an accusation against another, the officer who is accused can be required to make explanation. Had it not been for the publication of the telegrams, the House would never have been aware of the fact of their having passed, and he could not think they should be regarded in any other light than those of a private individual. Major ATKINSON said it seemed to him to be misleading the House, when they were told that a telegram signed officially could be sent in the capacity of a private citizen. They must accept the statement that Judge Ward, a District Judge, had made a most grave charge against another Judge. The Government, he considered, had not taken prompt enough action. The right course, ho thought, would have been to have sent for Judge Ward and told him he must either prove the charges, or retire from the service ; and appointed the Chief Justice or a Royal Commission to go into the whole charge. Either one of these Judges must retire from the service. Judge Ward knew what ho was doing, he knew the value of words and evidence. He thanked Mr. Vogel for allowing him to withdraw his telegram, but stated that to every word he had written he held. He (Major Atkinson) must confess his astonishment that any Government should advise the House to let matters remain in the state in which they were. The charge must be either true or false; if false, Judge Ward could not remain in the service ; if true, Judge Chapman must retire. The Government were bound in the interest of the public, and in the interests of justice to appoint a commission to inquire into the matter. 1 He believed a Select Committee would bo very unsatisfactory, (hear, hear), but after the declaration of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government they, had no hojie but to move for a Select Committee. He hoped the hon. gentleman would now state to the House that the matter would be investigated, that people might not say, “ that although one Judge had been charged with gross impartiality by another, the Government had held it was better not to inquire into it.” The inevitable inference was that the charge was true, but that the Government did not wish to be unkind to Judge Chapman. He hoped they would have a Royal Commission of investigation. Mr. VOGEL said that it was questionable whether Parliament would be right in handing over the examining of the charges to the puisne judges. He doubted whether any person outside the Government had the right or the position to inquire into a charge against 1 a puisne judge. Major ATKINSON said, his hon. friend raised technical difficulties, but the Government had power to introduce an Act to appoint, a commission of enquiry ; it would be worth while to get a Commissioner from England if : so they could conserve the purity of the administration of justice. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD disapproved of the motion of the hon. member for Waikouaiti. It was a motion entirely for the Government, and they were responsible ; it was their duty to take any action they thought fit. He thought the Premier had acted very judiciously. Anyone who read his telegrams in reply could not but endorse everything ho said ; he (Mr. Shepherd) would not be surprised to hear on a future occasion, that Judge Ward had been called upon to resign ; for such accusations, could not be brought with impunity against the Judges of a superior Court, who sat in : appeal on the decisions of a District Court Judge. What accusation did Judge Ward 1 bring against Judge Chapman? That he had granted an order for the producing of telegrams, a moot point even in England. J udge : Chapman, seeing he had made an error of judgment, rescinded his order. There, was no Judge in the Colony who enjoyed more public confidence than J udge Chapman. There could he no two opinions about the telegram of Judge Ward, which was most improper. He would support the Premier in stating this motion was not a proper way of dealing with the question. Mr. STEWARD said the hon. member at the head of the Government was crying “ Peace, peace, when there was no peace.” The news had been published in the daily paper that morning, and the country would never be satisfied until the question was fully inquired into. If a judge were proved to be partial he must bo removed, however much the House might regret the necessity for so doing. But if on the other hand a charge of partiality was made without grounds, the accuser must he removed. With regard to the publication of the telegrams, it had been said that it would be interfering with the privileges of the Press in endeavoring to discover by what means the telegrams were obtained. But it could bo ascertained through an entirely different channel how those telegrams came to light, and he thought it was desirable that the country should be informed whether any pressure had

been brought to bear upon any officer of the Telegraph Department to disclose the contents of any message. He was unable to see how the telegrams of Judge Ward could in anyway he construed as the telegrams of a private individual. They were charges made by him officially, as his signature testified. Mr. EOXsaid; Judge Chapman has been one of my best friends since his arrival in New Zealand (in the same ship with you, Sir, some thirty-four years ago), and Judge Ward has also been a most intimate friend of mine. Judge Chapman bears an irreproachable character, and Judge Ward has in his various appointments very much distinguished himself, especially for his conduct in sweeping out the nests of bankruptcy on the West Coast. It will be with very great pain that I shall see the House discussing the complication which exists between these two deserving men. These quarrels will arise between the best of men, and charges be made under false impressions, and it would be very desirable if on such occasions the matter could be allowed to slide quietly into oblivion with the concurrence of the community at large. Whether it would be a wise course as regards the administration of justice or the interests of the parties themselves the House has to consider. The hon. member fer Waikouaiti spoke to me on the subject after his arrival in Wellington, and impressed upon me the great importance of a Parliamentary inquiry. I told him the subject had created much sensation in Otago, but that if any inquiry should take place, I thought it must include the more serious question how the telegrams escaped. The lion, member agreed to this, and I promised to support the motion, on condition that it should confer full powers to inquire into the telegraphic part of the question. I feel bound in honor to vote with the hon. member on this occasion, but reasons have since suggested themselves to me which have very much induced me to think that this inquiry is not in a position to be satisfactorily disposed of by any committee of the House. I am sure that we shall be going beyond our legal and constitutional powers in making such an inquiry. The hon. member for Auckland City; West has reminded us that the power to remove Judges of the Supreme Court is vested in us by the Supreme Court Judges Act; the House of Commons has the same powers, and therefore the precedents on this subject will apply to our action here ; and these precedents show any lawyer that we are exceeding our constitutional powers. I beg to call your particular attention, Sir, to whether we are not attempting, in such cases as the present, to go too far hy making it the subject of investigation by a select committee, and I will quote Mr. Alpheus Todd’s “Parliamentary Government in England” in support of my argument. [The hon. gentlemen here read several extracts.] It will rest with you, Sir, to rule whether this is legal or constitutional, and I have no doubt that your larger power of comparing precedents will enable you to- do so readily. As to the practical question, lam sure it will be seen to he of very grave importance, and I hope the hon. member will cease no exertions to let it see the light. No one could doubt that the telegrams ns published were impudent forgeries, for if compared with the originals, three lines only were found to be alike, and there were some telegrams from Judge Ward included in those published in the Otayo Daily Times which were not in those laid before the House. Though they are so manifestly inaccurate, and contain so many things not really in the telegrams, yet the Editor of the Otayo Daily Times says positively in the issue of 27th May that he transcribed Judge Ward’s in what is called a local. And there is one feature in the telegrams which seems to suggest that the sanctity of the defendant has not been preserved ; there is no other way of explaining the divergence in the telegrams, except on the ground of complicity in the office. A very strong case is made out that these telegrams were fraudulently obtained from the office. How did they find their way into the public press ? After some observations by Mr. Shepherd and Mr. Sheehan, The SPEAKER ruled that it was competent for the motion to be put, but expressing his individual opinion on the matter, said he did not consid»r the telegrams from Judge Ward were of such a character as to necessitate any action in the way of an address to the Crown for his removal, and therefore the committee was not necessary. The motion was then carried. LIGHTING EOVEAUX STRAIT. Mr. CUTHBERTSON moved,—“That in the opinion of this House provision should be made in any general scheme for lighting the coast of the Colon}, for such light or lights in Eoveaux Strait, in addition to the light on or near West Cape, promised last session of Parliament.” Mr. REYNOLDS said that in the general lighting of the coast Eoveaux Strait would not be forgotten. Motion agreed to. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time :—Taranaki Waste Lands Amendment, Canterbury Public Domains Amendment, Municipal Corporations Gas, Conveyancing Amendment, Qualification of Electors, The Westland Loan Bill (passed). DUTY ON COLONIALLY DISTILLED SPIRITS. Mr. REYNOLDS’ motion in reference to the above was made the first Order of the Day for Friday. MEMBERS AND THE TELEGRAPH. Mr. MURRAY moved,—“That in the opinion of this House telegrams sent by or to members of the Legislature when attending Parliament should be charged Press rates.” Mr. VOGEL opposed the motion, advocating that the honorarium question should be placed on a more satisfactory basis, and intimated that if a desire was expressed by the House the Government would bring down a proposal on the subject. The motion was withdrawn.