PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4155, 15 July 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, 14th July. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m". question. The Hon. Captain FRASER asked the Government, —"Whether complaints have been made to the Agent-General with reference to faulty Railway Material passed by the Inspecting Engineer in London." The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said the Government were always thankful to have pointed out to them abuses of this kind, and his answer would be that railway material received in the Colony had been exceptionally good. Some complaints had been maole, and the attention of the Inspecting Engineer had been called to the particular cases mentioned by the gallant Captain. INDEBTEDNESS OP THE COLONY. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved,— "That this Council would seo with regret any increase to the general indebtedness of the Colony, except for the purpose of completing undertakings already authorized, until such time as the works now in progress are so far completed as to enable a reliable opinion to be formed as to the capability of the Colony ,to meet the annual expenditure thereby required, without having recourse to a degree of taxation which might injuriously affect the industrial resources of the Colony." In moving the motion, he would not support it by arguments of a sensational character, nor would he introduce any matter of a debateable character, or bearing in any degree on party politics, but would apply himself to the consideration of this large question in the spirit of a business man looking to his own financial position. In considering this question he would first of all direct the attention of hon. members to what were the ideas which influenced them up to four years ago, in giving effect to the Public Works policy, and then to consider to what extent these ideas had been fulfilled. They must all remember that the proportions in which the Public Works policy presented itself originally, appeared too large, and it was the universal feeling that if they gave effect to that policy and incurred the amount of indebtedness which it contemplated, they would be incurring the extreme of indebtedness consistent with prudence and caution. But when the Premier (Mr. Vogel) announced this scheme, he stateol that he contemplated that the Legislature would authorise an indebtedness, exclusive of immigration purposes, of £8,500,000. He contemplated borrowing to this extent, and he stated that this sum should be expended over ten years, at the rate of £850,000 a year ; but he further contemplated that there would be a considerable reduction of this amount by giving effect to a policy of reserving certain Crown lands. The Legislature did not view these proposals without some fear, and when they expressed so much, the Government agreed to reduce the proposed railway expenditure by two millions, proceeds of a sale to be made for the purpose of three and a half million acres of land. It would astonish hon. members to find that they had sanctioned loans to the full extent, and rather more than was originally contemplated, for they had voted £9,516',000 in seven years, and instead of 1,500 miles of railways had only about 1,000. In addition, the general and Provincial indebtedness, exclusive of sinking fund,, amounted to £9,2C5,000, so that they had a total indebtedness of more than 17 millions. As business men, and more or less entrusted with the interests of the country, the cpiestion they had to ask themselves was whether this amount of indebtedness was beyond their bearing without the imposition of an amount of taxation which would counteract the goool effect of the public works for which the debt was incurred. Still he had always supported the original public works scheme, and still felt that the indebtedness to which they stood pledged in connection with the public works was not one to be regarded with alarm as it stoool, but only as one to be increased with great caution ; at the present time they hardly regarded the real weight on their shoulders, for three reasons. First, that the Colony is now passing through a period of almost uuprecedenteol prosperity. Secondly, that in consequence the full burden was not felt inasmuch as they had determined to keep the interest due over until their railways were in working order, and thirdly, because they -were not paying the full burden imposeol upon the Colony in consequence of their relations with the Native race. With regard to the first, they had in three years passed through a period of great depression to, a period of great prosperity. Three years ago there wa3 a oleficienoy in the revenue of £130,000. With regard to the Natives, £160,000 had been transferred on account of defence fund to loan account, and this was an abnormal expenditure. There .would be large expenditure on the Native question, anol this should be borne out of the public revenue. The inference of his arguments was, that the country haol not aolvanced in its indebtedness further than it was able to bear; but regarding the possibility of another period of depression, or even of war, it had gone as far as was consistent with prudence and caution. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said Mr. Waterhouse had assured the Council that he was speaking in no party strain, but other members could not but feel he had done so. He. would remind the Council that the Public Works policy was no longer the policy of an individual, but the policy of the Colony of New Zealand. There was no uncertain sound in the appeal made to the country in 1869, after the initiation of that policy, which had now received a thoroughly colonial stamp. But if he were to follow his hon. friend's arguments he woulol be obliged to disclose the financial policy of the Government, a statement of which was more properly maole not in the Council but in another place ; indeed, under the cirenmstances, were the motion to be passed it might very well be regarded as an expression of want of confidence. (Hear, hear.) Ho moved the previous oraestion. After some remarks from Colonel Kenny, deprecating the moving of the previous question, The Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said that they haol no authoritative statement on which to base a financial discussion. They could very well consider the substance of the motion when Bills affecting to ask for increase of indebtedness were before them. If they did not approve such Bills, they could adopt the same course as they had adopted last year in the case of the provincial borrowing Bills. He was glad to hear, the railway spoken so well of. When the main lines were completed feeders could be brought in, and grain and other produce carried to an outlet for«3d. and 4d. a bushel, instead of la. as at present, and the difference would in effect, be so much more money kept in the country. Mr. WATERHOUSE in reply, said he had not expected to find the Colonial Secretary taking the ground he did, and had felt inclined to withdraw his motion after hearing him ; but he would take the decision on the voices. The previous omestion was then put and carried, thus virtually disposing of the motion. CALL OF THE COUNCIL. The Hon. Major RICHMOND, C. 8., moved, —"That as an important question connected with the constitution of the Legislative Council will arise during the present session, it is expedient that there should be a Call of the Council, and that the same should be fixed for the 31st clay of July." Agreed to. REGULATION OF MACHINERY BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of this Bill, explaining its provisions in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission of Enquiry into the subject, previously laid on the table. Agreed to. SECOND READINGS. The Offences against the Person Act AmendI ment Bill, and Justices of the Peace Act Amendment Bill, were read a second time. IMPREST SUPPLY BILL. The Imprest Supply Bill was passed through all its stages, leave having been given to do so previously, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen. The Council adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock until the usual hour to-day (Wednesday).

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, July 14. leave of absence. On the motion of Mr. J. C. Brown, leave of absence for ten days was granted to Mr. Pyke on account of urgent private business. KANGIORA AND OXFORD RAILWAY. Mr. J. E. BROWN asked,—" Why the construction of the Rangiora and Oxford Railway has been suspended." The inhabitants of the district were strongly in hopes that the line would have been finished long since, it having been one of the earliest commenced. Mr. RICHARDSON replied that in this case the contractor for- the section of the railway from Cust to Oxford, was also contractor for another branch line in Canterbury. On the latter he was behind time, and on receiving notice to proceed with it .or the penalties would be enforced, took his men off the Cust-Oxford line to enable him to complete the other line. The contractor considered he was well able to complete the Cust-Oxford contract within contract time, but the Government would give him notice to go on with the work, which in all probability would cause him to do so on receipt of that notice. THE WARD-CHAPMAN CORRESPONDENCE. Mr. VOGEL, in laying on the table the above papers, said the telegrams were produced as received, and not as forwarded, but the inaccuracies were very slight. WARDENS ON NELSON GOLDFIELDS. Mr. HARRISON asked,—" If the Government will lay upon the tablo copies of any correspondence that may have passed between the Provincial Government of Nelson and the General Government, upon the subject of a reduction of the number of wardens on the Nelson South-West Gold Fields? Also, if they will lay upon the table copies of correspondence between the Provincial Government of Westlancl and the General Government; respecting the payment of the salaries of the Resident Magistrates who are also goldfields wardens in that Province 1" Mr. O'RORKE replied that the papers would be laid on the table to-morrow. BALCLUTHA-MATAURA RAILWAY. Mr. THOMSON asked,—" Into how many contracts the Government propose divioling the formation of the Balclutha and Mataura line of railway ; and when they propose calling for tenders for the contracts." Mr. RICHARDSON replied that it had not been finally decided into how meny contracts the work would be divided ; but it would be satisfactory to the hon. member to know that everything in connection with the contracts, plans, specifications, &c, were prepared. Careful watch would be kept on the labor market as to the time for calling for tenders. DESPATCHES TO THE AGENT-GENERAL. Mr. T. B. GILLIES asked a question of the Government, without notice, in regard to the following telegram which appeared in the Southern Cross of July 8 :—"Very severe despatches to Dr. Featherston have been sent by the last mail, which will be laid on the table in all probability to-morrow." It might be that this was a pure invention on the part of the correspondent, who wanted to provide material for a sensation paragraph. But if there was any foundation for this statement, he trusted the Government would take measures to find out how telegraphic information leaked out in this way in regard to information which was not in the possession of hon. members. (Hear.) He asked whether the statement was correct; whether such despatches had been sent by last mail, or were in preparation for being laid on the table of the House ; and if that were so, whether the Government would take measures to find out how information concerning these despatches leaked out from one or other of the departments, as it must have done in that case before it was laid before the House, which was entitled to receive the information first. (Hear, hear.) Mr. VOGEL was not aware that there was any foundation for what appeared in the paper, neither was he aware that any very severe despatches had been sent to the AgentGeneral. Certainly there was no desire to keep back any correspondence from the House. Matter was in preparation in continuation of the papers already laid on the table, and would be presented as soon as possible. BILLS. 'Leave was given to Mr. Curtis to introduce " A Bill to Consoliolate and Amend the Waste Land Laws of the Province of Nelson," and to Mr. Reynolds to introduce " The Presbyterian Church of .Otago Lands Bill" and " The Dunedin Gas and Waterworks Loan Bill." SUPPLY. The Imprest Supply Bill was passed through all its stages. WESTLAND LOAN BILL. The second reading of this Bill was agreed to. ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the second reading of this BilJ, Mr. LUCKIE said he thought the last clause a very objectionablo one, and an infringement of the liberty of the subject. It was one which should not for a moment be accepted by the House ; anol his only surprise was that it should have been brought forward as a Government motion. Clause 7 provided that negligence should be taken for granted on the part of any persons who unfortunately, by accident or otherwise, olid olamage to the telegraph lines. Not only did it seem to be an attack upon the liberty of the subject, but it gave into the hands of anyone who might be sufficiently malicious the opportunity of gratifying a severe grudge against any person. He trusted the Government woukl see the propriety if not of withdrawing this clause, of certainly making such modifications of it as would deprive it of the detrimental effect it would otherwise have. Mr. SHEPHARD concurred with the remarks of the member for Nelson City. Ho also complainoxl of a heavier penalty being awarded to a person for resisting anyone acting in execution of the ninth section, than to a person guilty of the actual offence of damaging the lines. Mr. VOGEL said he had not yet had an opportunity of ascertaining the opinion of the Attorney-General upon the two clauses suggested by the hon. member for Rangitikei. But the suggestion made in the course of the discussion on the Bill, which struck him most forcibly, was that made by Major Atkinson, with respect to posting telegrams instead of preserving them. He had thought it his duty to enquire into the possibility of that proposal, which was at once so simple and went so near the desired end of making the telegraph mere machinery for carriage, as was the Post-office, that it seemed precisely the thing, if there were no objections to it, that it was very dosirableto carry out. But the proposal that telegrams should be posted by the clerk receiving them was not feasible, where a large number of messages were sent, for the operator with his instrument in hand coulol not leave it to post telegrams. More especially did this objection apply to the smaller offices, because, were the proposed course adopted, there would be no means of cheeking the receipts of those offices, or of ascertaining whether the messages were accurately sent or not, tho original messages being sent to the head office at Wellington, where proper abstracts were made, anol it was ascertained if the charges were accurate. But the proposal seemed quite feasible in regard to dealing with messages that had been passed through the ordinary review of ascertaining that they had been properly sent, and that the charges were fair. It would bo quite possible to post those messages from the head-office insteaol of storing them as at present ; but that course would entail a considerable amount of expenoliture. There were at present 70,000 original telegrams monthly examined at the head office. Tho mere clerical labor of addressing those telegrams and sending them away would be considerable. It was not safe either to send them to tho person at once to whom they were addressed ; it was desirable that every address should be checked. Roughly estimated, anol taking into consideration that the work would be done through office hours, five or six clerks. would bo required. He thought it would be expedient to employ females ; in which caso a very oxpensive staff would not be recmired. Probably the cost wonld bo £I2OO a-year, including envelopes. Except in regard to expense, he did not think there was any vital objection to the proposal, and whou tho Bill

was in Committee it would be competent for hon. members to express their opinion upon it. The second reading was then agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be committed on Friday. OTHEK BILLS. The second reading of the Supreme Court Judges Bill and the Municipal Reserves Bill was also agreed to. ; I'OHESTS BESEBVES BILL. Mr. VOGEL, in moving the second reading of the above Bill, said hon. members would recollect that at the end of last session the Colonial Industries Committee brought up a resolution recommending the Government ascertaining through the Provincial Government all the information that could be obtained upon the subject of forest lands, and in obedience to that recommendation a circular was writteh;'by the Colonial Secretary to tho Superintendents, and some of them in reply had furnished interesting information, which would be found in the paper which had just been laid on the table. He was aware that the proposal which the Bill started with, viz., to definitely establish a system of State forests, was a step in advancement of merely obtaining information, and that the subject on which he was about to speak was a new one, and one to which personally he had not given much attention until very lately. During the visit which he paid to the Southern parts of the Colony during the recess his attention was first called to the subject, when he was forcibly struck by the large demand which had arisen for timber for railway and telegraphic purposes, and also . by the injury which arose from the reckless destruction of forests. For these reasons the subject was one which demanded urgent attention ; it was one which not only affected this immediate generation, but would make itself felt in years to come. It was a question of the most importance, if not the question of questions for tho Colony. He must admit that since he had studied this subject, his views had very much modified. In the first instance, it seemed to him that it would be desirable to keep distinct the question of planting new forests from the conservation of old forests ; but from what he had gleaned on the subject, and from what he had seen of the fallacy of attempting a division, the more he felt that forestry comprehended just as much of making the best use of existing forests as of creating new ones. In all probability, much that he would say that evening would be already familiar to many hon. members, and he hoped to be excused if he travelled over the ground which had brought him to the conclusion which would describe the object of the Bill. The paper laid on the table contained all the information on the subject of State forests that could be found available not only in reference to the forests of other countries, but also as to what had been done in this country. One part of the paper contained reports of debates on the subject, that had taken place in the New Zealand Assembly ; another part contained reports which had been presented to the House at former times, which he considered it desirable to collect under one volume. And again, there was tho report, which although very bulky, and its contents considerably lengthy, yet he begged leave to think hon. members would consider very carefully. He alluded to the report of Captain Walker, of Madras. This report, a copy of which had been sent to him from India, had attained a world-wide celebrity. Another paper he had laid on the table was recently presented to the United States Congress by the Association for the Advancement of Science, and not only had considerable references to Captain Walker's works, but contained considerable extracts from it. The American report he had only received within the last two or three days, and therefore, had not been able to have it printed. Captain Walker's report was well «*orth reproducing, and preserving in the state in which it was now presented. Although he had not paid much attention to the subject until very recently, it would be unfair to allow it to be supposed that it had not already occupied considerable attention in the New Zealand Assembly. It had attracted considerable attention, not only among present members of the House, but among those who had ceased to be members of it, and in past sessions had taken a great deal of interest in it. He considered it right to refer to Messrs. O'Neill and Stafford, amongst present members ; and as past members to Mr. Travels and to Mr. Potts of Canterbury. All those gentlemen had taken very great interest in the subject, and had spoken on the question in its various aspects, especially upon the effects of the destruction of forests on the climate of the Colony and in the production of floods. The Legislature at various times .had shown a disposition to deal with the subject ; and, indeed, to some extent had done so by the various Acts which had been passed, and by giving bonuses for private planting. He did not mean to say that this system had not anything to recommend it, but it had not, to his mind, much weight, as the establishment of State forests, conducted by the State, should mean their preservation with the utmost care. If the State waa to pay for planting it was only reasonable that the result should belong to the State. However, under the proposal whHi he ■was about to explain, it was not at all intended to interfere with previous legislation. Private planting would be left in the same position as it now stood*. He referred to the valuable reports which were bound up in the paper he had alluded to, especially to those from Otago by Mr. J. P. Thompson, Mr. McArthnr, and Mr. Pearson, who, he believed, had spent time and took a very large interest in ■■ the forest question. The Press of New Zealand, he was happy to say, had taken a very large interest in this matter, and notably the Otago Daily Times had shown a very large and deep interest in it. He would ask hon. members to direct their attention to the question of the importance of preserving the forests and to the injurious effects of destroying them; effects which were very serious upon our climate with respect to rainfall. There was no end of authorities to show that the effects of the removal of forests' wa3 to 'Seriously prejudice climate, to cause floods, to destroy original water-courses/ and to wash away soil; and it was an accepted fact that many old countries which had taken a large part in the history of the world had been literally destroyed and rendered ahnost unfit for occupation by the de-i struction of their timber. As much of what he had to say would be in the shape of extracts from various papers which he had read upon the subject, he .would place the House in possession of their contents. Most of those extracts were from, official sourceß. [The hon. gentleman here read extracts from the official report on agriculture, despatches from Governor Gregory upon the destruction of timber in Ceylon, from Dr. Hooker's report on the same subject, and from the annual report of the American Association for the Advancement of Science on the effects of the destruction of timber on climate; on rainfall and floods, from Professor Mavarel, a French writer, who is considered a high authority on the same subjects.] The next branch of the subject to which he invited the attention of hon. members, was the fallacy of supposing that the timber supply of the world was inexhaustible because forests were large. Any conclusion as to the extent of forests must be very speculative. Of course it must not be supposed that the term forest was convertible into tho supply of useful timber. Indigenous forests untended and uncared, produced nothing like so useful or prolific a supply of timber as forests reared for the purpose. Still, as a matter s of interest he had ascertained, and only in the vaguest possible manner the extent of forest lands in different countries. If in countries where it was thought the forest land was inexhaustible, and still it was considered necessary and desirable to inaugurate a system of careful management, what must bo the case in a country where the supply was limited and the forests comparatively small t Brown estimated for Britain 2,000,000 acres of vroodland, equal to about one-twentieth part; all Europe, 500,000,000 acres of woodland, equal on average to nearly 20 per cent. ; Prance, 18,000,000 acres of woodland ; Russia, 3,000,000 acres, equal to 30 per cent. ; Switzerland, 1,500,000 acres ; Norway and Sweden, 80,000,000 acres; Spain and Portugal, 6,000,000 acres, equal to about 5 per cent. ; Netherlands, 570,000 acres; Germany, 50,000,000 acres; Belgium, 1,400,000 acres; Denmark, 500,000 acres ; Turkey and Greece, 10,000,000 acres ; British North America, 000,000,000 acres;

United States,' 560,000,000 acres ; South America, 700,000,000 acres. Reutzsch, a German writer quoted in the American report, gave the following per centages of woodlands : —Norway, 61 per cent. ; Sweden, 60 ; Germany, 61J ; Sardinia, 12£ ; Holland, 7'l ; Spain, s£; Belgium, 18& ; France, ICJ ; Switzerland, 15 ; Denmark, and Portugal 4J. The same report gave as by the census of 1870, the area of woodland of the United States as 380,000,000 acres, or about 15 per cent, as against 25 per cent, in the previous instance. But these were not all State forests. Some of the information in reference to forests, especially the German forests, was very interesting. The science of forestry owed very much of its development to Germany. The forests of Hanover, which were under State management, were over 900,000 acres in extent; and the annual yield from them for four years was 45 million cubic feet; the annual receipts, £300,000, and the annual expenditure £162,000, of which little more than half went for working expenses, the balance being for establishments, land tax, rent, &c. Bavaria had purely State forests 2,318,000 acres., the receipts from which were £1,071,000, and the ordinary expenditure for establishments, working charges, planting and construction of roads, £446,000, extending, buying up rights, £47,000, or profits, £596,000, to which was to be added the value of rights, or given away, nearly £200,000, making the total profits £755,000 per year. In 1871, the Prussian State forests yielded 214,700,000 cubic feet, the income being £2,100,000 ; disbursements, £1,200,000, and the profit little less than a million. It was impossible to avoid trenching upon the cognate subjects of importance of maintaining forests and the disastrous effects of their destruction, although he had referred to them separately, and to the enormous demand for timber. Brown, in his "Forester," estimated that in 1869 Great Britain required annually 40 million cubic feet for mining operations, there being 4000 mining establishments in the country. This was a significant fact, for New Zealand promised to become a great country for mining operations. It was also estimated that Great Britain required for 14,000 miles of railway, 20 million cubic feet annually. [The hon. member here read extracts showing the extent of the forests of the world, and their destruction.] It was now important to understand what the art of forestry meant. He had heard of large forest departments established in different parts of the world, especially in India, the officers being allowed to travel; but he had no conception of all that the art of forestry really meant, or how universally, to all climates and countries, the great principles of forestry were. [The hon. member here read Brown's definition of practical forestry.] There seemed to be a growing feeling throughout the world of the necessity for dealing comprehensively with this huge matter. At the International Congress of Land and Forest Culture, held at "Vienna last year, the following resolutions were addressed to the various Governments of the world :

We recognise the fact that, in order to effectually check the continually increasing devastation of forests which is being carried on, international agreements are needed, especially in relation to the preservation and proper cultivation (for the end in view) of those forests lying at the sources and along the courses of the great rivers, since it is known that through their irrational destruction the results are a great decrease of the volume of water, causing detriment to trade and commerce; the filling up the river's bed with sand, caving in of the banks, and inundation of agricultural land along its course. We further recognise it to be the mutual duty of all civilised lands to preserve and cultivate all such forests as are of vital importance for the well-being—agricul-tural and otherwise— of the land, such as those on sandy coasts, on tho sides and crowns as well as on the steep declivities of mountains, on the sea coasts and other exposed places, and that international principles should be laid down, to which the owners of such protecting or " guardian" forests be subject, thus to preserve the land from damage. In France, the greatest attention %vas devoted to the subject of forests ; America was awakening to the necessity of interference, but was hardly yet able to realise the effects of the destruction of forests, which had been so long regarded as hindrances to settlement rather than as a most valuable resource. In Austria, the management of forests had recently been transferred from the Minister of Finance to the Minister of Agriculture. In Switzerland, the subject was of such immense importance that the remodelling of the Constitution was hfiingf ocmoklovoj, with (to vi<w of the Federal Government assuming control of the forests. In ' Canada there had been a large amount of legislation on the subject, directed rather to making provision by which restrictions were imposed on those who obtained licenses and used forest lands. In Sweden the laws were most stringent. Private owners were required to plant and protect from cattle, two timber trees for every one cut down; owners of private forests were strictly prohibited or regulated as to cuttingtrees ; a proposal was to be considered last year—lie did not know with what result—preventing owners of private forests from cutting down trees of less than a stated diameter ; in fact, the Government were endeavoring by every means possible to buy up the forests already alienated from the Crown. Victoria had ' done little more than recognise the enormous magnitude of the question and the need for action. Under the Land Acts the Governor had the power to reserve lands for state forests, and to regulate the mode of using such forests. But nothing like a comprehensive system had been adopted. All that could be said- was that they had succeeded in very much lessening the destruction of forests, and that on a small scale they were treeplanting. In South Australia, the importance of the question had been recognised; but as yet nothing had been done. After referring to Mr. Calcutta opinion, that if £IO,OOO were properly spent in planting, the trees would in thirty years have a market value of a million sterling, he alluded to the calculations of Mr. Goyder, SurveyorGeneral of South Australia, who recommended that a reserve of 300 square miles, equal to about 200,000 acres, should be made. His estimate of the first year's expenditure was £14,000 ; second and each subsequent year, ,£10,500. According to that scheme, the results of which he (Mr. Vogel) thought Mr. Goyder was too sanguine in estimating, but the figures showed the enormous, profits of treeplanting —five years must elapse after commencement of operations before any return on the outlay could be expected ; from the sixth to the ninth years, £35,000 would be realised ; from the tenth to twelfth, £70,000 ; and this .latter would continue to be realised until the end of the seventeenth year, when it would again decrease to £35,000, that was, at' tho end of the twenty-fifth year, when the country would be in possession of 300 square miles of matured forests. [At this point we must; break off our report, and will to-morrow give Mr. Vogel's explanations of tho Bill itself.] Mr. SHEEHAN thought enough had fallen from the honorable member to show them that this would be the largest question before the House this session, and he thought members should have more time to consider it. He moved the adjournment of the debate until Friday. The adjournment was carried. CIVIL BEItVICE BILL. Mr. MURRAY thought some provision should be made for their families, as well as for tho annuitants themselves. Mr. SWANSON objected to the indefinite wording of clause 3, and would like to see the name of the person meant insetted. Ho held that the real cure for the pension question was that the Government should insist on provision being made for every Government servant's family in the Government Annuities Office. He believed that that practice would also greatly extend the business of the office. He would be very glad to see the practice prevail all over the Colonv. The Civil Service were too fond of insisting on their rights, but ho would like to see them pay for them as other people did. Mr. VOGEL having answered the objections raised at some length, the second reading was passed. The House adjourned at 10.30 p.m.