PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4151, 10 July 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, July 0. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. OAMARU HARBOR WORKS. The Hon. Mr. MILLER asked the Hon. tho Colonial Secretary,—“ If the Government have in their, possession any report by the Euginoor-in-Chief of the Oamaru harbor works ; and, if so, whether they have any objection to lay it on the table.” The work was so far advanced that it was really of Colonial importance. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said a report on tho subject had already been printed among tho Parliamentary Papers in 1871. Since that time’ no report had been made, but if desired one would be furnished. The Hon. Mr. MILLER said the report mentioned could not apply to this work, as it was not then in existence. LAND SALE REGULATIONS. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved,— “That, in the opinion of this Council, the mode of selling and disposing of lands under the New Zealand Settlements Act should be regulated by Act of the General Assembly, and not, as at present, by regulations made at the will of the Government of the day. That a copy of this resolution be forwarded by address to His Excellency tho Governor.” The mode of dealing with lands was one in which any amount of ignorance was deemed permissible, and the legislation on these matters was so confused that few cared to take trouble to find out the real position of affairs. The Hon. Colonial Secretary was the only member who really knew the subject fully. -The New Zealand Settlements Act threw no certain light on the subject. The regulations at different times were so contradictory that people must have some personal interest to enable them to obtain a correct idea. Although there were regulations, they had been opposed in practice, and the result was that in May, 1871, it was provided that all confiscated lauds prior to being sold should be surveyed, and then submitted to auction at a minimum price of ss. an acre ; but owing to the unbounded confidence placed in the Native Minister, these lands had occasionally been allowed to be dealt with contrary to the regulations. Reference was made in the Parliamentary Papers to tho transactions with Mr. Vesey Stuart, who had been negotiating with the Government for a free grant of land, which, however, had come to nothing. Still the Government had had the power, if it had to make a new regulation, to validate the transaction. In the case of Mr. Cox’s run of 150,000 acres, ■which had been leased for twentyone years at a rent of £3OO a year, no breach of faith had occurred, but the effect of it was, that without beiug profitable to Mr. Cox, it practically locked up the country which was well adapted to carry a large population, for the purpose of settlement, for eighteen years. It was necessary to its full development that it should be sold. There was no authority to make this lease, which was entirely illegal, but the Government were, of course, bound to keep faith with Mr. Cox. In the case of the sale of a large quantity of land in the Waikato, land had been sold at 3s. 6d. an acre to persons such as Mr. Russel], Mr. Taylor, and Mr. Murdoch, who would not enter into any doubtful transaction, but could only be expected in such a state of affairs to look.to their own profit. Thelandwas said tobemostlymarsh, and that capital was required to develop it. The agreement had been entered into, -not under the existing regulations, and it would be necessary to validate it by another regulation. When transactions could be entered into outside existing regulations, confidence in the administration of land was lost. There were about one and a half millions of acres of confiscated lands, and if they would not give tho power to Provincial Councils to deal with these lands, why should a single individual virtually have power to do it. He had brought the matter forward in the desire to remedy the defect in the administration of confiscated lands, and to prevent dealings being made without the public having full knowledge. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, who was almost completely inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say, that for all other purposes except actual sale of lands, the sale was settled by Statute. The Statute gave the Governor in Council power to make regulations for the disposal of lands, provided they were published in the Gazette, so that the public might see what was being done by the Executive. Seeing that a very large discretion was reposed in the Government during tho recess, he did not think they should he restrained in the manner proposed. It would not be advisable to give the Legislature this discretionary power. In the case of Mr. Cox’s land, tho lease was not made in contravention of any regulations, and was subject to termination by the Government without compensation. Tho regulations of 1870 provided for the issue of pastoral licences, terminable on two months' notice by the Colonial Secretary, The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said he was referring to an actual lease, not pastoral licenses.

The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said both came much under the same regulations. The Waikato land between the head waters of the Piako River was almost useless, and had belonged to a hostile tribe. A proposal was made to purchase this for .£IO,OOO, to be expended in making a road from the Hamilton to the Thames side, which would confer great advantages on the people. The arrangement was not made ultra vires, or in contravention to the regulations. He hoped his hon. friend would not press the matter further, as it would be impossible for the land question to be brought under one strict definition, and there were many other arguments in favor of leaving their present discretionary powers to the Government unaltered.

The Hon. Col. KENNY asked if the circumstances of the case and names of the persons interested were to be furnished in the returns promised of all alterations. A very large purchase of similar swamps to that mentioned had been made at the name rate, and had been resold to a Melbourne firm at a much The Hon. Dr. POLLEN sard the request was somewhat mutsual. Such information could be called for in the usual way. With reference to the particrrlar transaction alluded to, it had greatly benefited all the people in the Waikato, and for Iris own part, he would like to see more lands bought by capitalists and turned to such good account rut these in the Waikato had been by the enterprising firm which had taken them up. Tire Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE, in reply, sard the mode of dealing with the lands should be so stringently lard down, that no option should ho allowed to the Government as to giving publicity, and as to the minimum price per acre. He was sure the Ministry only desired to advance the interests of public policy in tbe transactions they had entered into, but he could see no good reason for withdrawing his motion. The motion was agreed to. JUDGE WARD’S CORRESPONDENCE. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved,— “ That copies of all correspondence atrd telegrams which have passed between the Government and Judge Ward, in reference to His Honor Mr. Justice Chairman, bo lard on the table.” In consequence of the explanation given in another place, he did not wish to make any further remarks on the subject. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN sard the Government had no objection to comply with tiro motion. There being no more business on the OrderPaper, the Council adjourned at five minutes to three until the usual hour to-day. HOUSE OF REPRENTATIYES. Thursday, July 9, The Speaker took tiro chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITION. Mr. SHEEHAN presented a petition from Mr. Soall, of Auckland, on tbe subject of musketry instruction. PRIVILEGE. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD intimated that ho wished to consult Mr. Speaker on a certain point, and ho desired to know whether the practice of last session, of the reporters’ galleries being under the control of the Hansard Committee,

was to be continued during this session, because lie should like i;o take the opinion of the House upon a question. He had been informed upon very reliable authority that a certain man, who pretended that he was reporter for some small paper had crowded out the reporters from the gallery, which was a matter of very great inconvenience. Under disguise of being a reporter he had been sending telegrams, in reference to hon. members of that House, of a character that he (Mr. Shepherd) did not think would even be tolerated in America. (Hear.) If such conduct was to be continued under the auspices of the Hansard Committee, he trusted the House would restore to Mr. Speaker’s hands the control of the galleries, so that he might take charge of the privileges of the House. If such things were to be continued, no alternative would be loft hon. members but to purchase a few horsewhips at the earliest opportunity. (Laughter.) It would bo a very unfortunate position for any hon. member ■to have to carry a horsewhip about with him. He was sure if the control of the gallery was placed in the Speaker’s hands he would take steps to assert the dignity of members of the House.

The SPEAKER replied that the control of the reporters’ galleries rested with the Hansard Committee. With regard to what the hon. member had said, he (the Speaker) thought it right to say that the hon. member had shown him the telegram, purporting to come from the correspondent of a newspaper outside Wellington, and the terms of it were so offensive and insulting to any member of Parliament, that were the gallery now under his (the Speaker’s) control he would most certainly exclude that person from it (hear), because he hold it would be at least duo to any member of that House that they should be protected from the insolence and license of persons who did not pay the respect due either to the House itself, or to members of it. At the same time, the House having been pleased last year to place him (the Speaker) iu an unsatisfactory position, he did not feel called upon to himself recommend any change. THE MAEREWHENUA DIFFICULTY. Mr. STEWARD asked the Premier, — “Whether the attention of the Government has been directed to the difficulty which has arisen on the Maerewhenua Goldfield, Province of Otago, and the case pending as between Messrs. Borton and MoMaster and Howe and party on the subject of the pollution of streams by mining operations; and whether it is the intention of the Government to bring forward a Bill during the present session dealing with the question of riparian rights.” He had adopted the plan of asking a question, as likely to save time as compared with the form of motion, which would have given rise to considerable discussion. There was no doubt a difficulty had arisen on the goldfield referred to ; and the question, which was at present local, would extend to almost every gold mining operation in the Colony. If decided in favor of Borton and McMaster, gold mining on the Maerewhenua would be entirely put a stop to. Mr. VOGEL replied, that search had been made in the offices and no trace could be found of any papers on the subject. RIVERTON HARBOR. Mr. McGILLIVBAY asked,—“ Whether the Engineer-in-Chief has made any report upon the harbor at Riverton, which he visited during the recess ; and if so, whether such repoi-t will be laid upon the table of the House.” Mr. RICHARDSON replied that the En-gineer-in-Chief had recently visited Riverton, and would have reported on that harbor, but was informed that the Provincial Engineer of Otago had been instructed to report upon what works were necessary in that harbor, and therefore did not consider it advisable for him to make any report upon the subject. He had, however, informed himself sufficiently to enable him to make a report if the House desired it. COURT AND CUSTOM HOUSE AT HOKIANGA. Mr. WILLIAMS asked, —“ If it is the intention of the Government to have a new Court House and Custom House erected at Hokianga.” Mr. RICHARDSON replied that when the expenditure for public buildings was brought down, the Government would be prepared to make the necessary provision for these buildings. ' THE REPRESENTATION. Mr. O’NEILL asked,—“Whether the Government dm-ing this session intend to introduce any Bill to amend the Representation Act, 1871.” Mr. VOGEL replied that the representation should not be interfered with except on good grounds, and after careful consideration of what had resulted from the very large changes that had occurred in the Colony. The mere fact that a certain amount of inequality existed did not to his mind create a necessity for dealing with the question, and so far as the Government were concerned they did not inten I to propose legislation on the subject this session. BILLS. Leave was given to the Hon. Mr. O'Rorke to introduce a Bill to amend the Conveying Ordinance ; to Mr. Reeves to introduce the Canterbury Public Domains Act, 1872 ; to Mr.CuTHBEBTSON to introduce a Bill to Extend the Time for the Registration of Births in certain cases ; and to Mr. Seymour to introduce a Bill to amend the Marlborough Waste Lands Act, 1807. RETURN OF IMPORTS, ETC. Mr. C. PARKER moved, —“That returns be laid on the table of the House showing the general exports and imports between New Zealand and Tasmania for the years ending the 30th day of June, 1870, 1871, 1872, and 1873.” Mr. REYNOLDS suggested that the motion should be withdrawn. If the hon. member would call upon him at hie office he would be most happy to go into the matter with him. A return that would be laid on the table shortly would give the desired information. Motion withdrawn. NAPIER DISTRICT JUDGE. Mr. SHEEHAN moved, —“ For a return of all business transacted by the District Court, Napier, since the appointment of the present judge to the 30th June last.” The statement he made last session, when the appointment was under consideration, that there was not sufficient work to warrant it, had been borne out by facts. He understood the officer had little or no work to do ; certainly not sufficient to justify the continuance of such an office at such a salary. Personally, he believed the Government had made a very good selection for the office ; and he believed he was correct in saying that the officer himself had informed the Government of the fact of his having such a small amount of business to do, aud had suggested cither some sort of combination of judicial offices or an increase of the jurisdiction of the Court over which he presided. Mr. YOGEL had no objection to furnishing the return asked for. He took that opportunity of saying that the Government propose to extend the district over which the District Judge presided to Tauranga, ho believed. It was very much to the credit of Hawke’s Bay that the District Judge had so little to do. Major ATKINSON said when the matter wca being discussed last session a pledge was given that the gentleman who filled the position of District Judge would also fill the office of Resident Magistrate. He himself brought under the notice of tho House the successful working of that system on the Taranaki side, where tho District Judge performed the duties of Resident Magistrate. In this case, it seemed that something liko double the salary was being paid and only half tho work performed. Mr. VOGEL ; I am not aware of any such pledge. Mr. T. B. GILLIES hoped the Government would not carry out the proposal to extend the district of the District Judge to Tauranga, which in all respects was much closer to Auckland than to Napier. It would ho taking the Napier judge greatly out of his way to take him to Tauranga, which was within three miles of tho nearest judge in the Province of Auckland.

Mr. SHEEHAN, in replying, said last session it was promised that the District Judge should he also Eesideut Magistrate ; and the present Eesideut Magistrate be removed ; but that promise had not been carried out. From Napier to Tauranga was a three days’ journey

by coach ; Tauranga was entirely out of the line of steam communication with Napier, while it was approachable from the Thames in thirty hours. He was desirous instead of maintaining those who were termed “ the great unpaid,” to substitute competent men, aud to give them good salaries. He would take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the subject by motion. Motion agreed to. THE LICENSING ACT.

Mr. FOX moved, —“ For copies of all instructions issued to Resident Magistrates or Licensing Boards, and all correspondence with either, relating to the introduction and action of the Licensing Act of 1873.” The Government intended to introduce a Bill to amend the Licensing Act of last session, but he was not aware of the character of the measure. He was also aware that the Act of last session had failed to a very great extent to carry out what should have been reasonably expected of it. The causes of that failure were apparent to him, and were chiefly to be found in the extremely late period at which the proclamations constituting licensing districts were made. Those proclamations were made at such a late period that it was impossible for the greatest portion of the communities to know in what district they resided. Some of the districts were created in an extremely inconvenient and injudicious manner. A number of those brought under his own personal observation had been recommended by the Resident Magistrates, and limits recommended were such as to render it impossible to put the machinery of the Act in operation. If the magistrates in the case she had alluded to had been publicans themselves .or iu the interests of the publicans, which he did not suppose for one moment, they could not have devised better boundaries to secure a continuance of the existing state of things and to prevent the operation of the Act. It was very desirable to know what instructions were given iu reference to the points he had alluded to. Mr. VOGEL was sure the House would agree that the hon. member was fully entitled to receive all possible information upon a subject in connection with which he had taken so very much trouble. He might inform the hon. member that to carry out the Bill of last session was no light matter ; aud no modern measure had entailed so much trouble upon the Government. It was very desirable that the information should be laid before the House, in order that it might consider what steps should be taken to remedy what appeared to be obvious defects in the machinery of the Act. He might state that the Government proposed bringing down a measure to cure the defects which had shown themselves iu the Act, leaving to the House the consideration whether any other legislation would be necessary. He trusted to be able to lay the Bill, which would be a tolerably brief one, before the House at a very early day. Mr. SHEEHAN brought under the notice of the House the enormous cost for advertising which the Act necessitated. In the Province of Auckland several hundreds of pounds had to be expended, the cost being from 10 to 50 per cent, more than what had been previously paid. He saw no necessity for such expenditure, aud hoped some better provision would be made iu the amending Bill.

Mr. SHEPHERD drew attention to a fact which, he was informed, occurred in_conneotion with a Licensing Dench. In a certain Province, he was informed on reliable authority, a convicted sly grog-seller sat as one of the Licensing Bench, which was a very improper thing, and he could not believe it took place in consequence of the instructions from the Government. He trusted the hou. member for Rangitikei, who took so large an interest in this matter, would take care to exclude the class of persons referred to, who were not fit to sit upon the Bench in such cases. Sir J. C. WILSON What was the Province ? Motion agreed to. THE COLONIAL HANDBOOK. Mr. WAKEFIELD moved; “For a return of the cost of producing ‘The Handbook of New Zealand,’ as laid on the table—• distinguishing the amount of money paid to each contributor, of any that have been paid for their services, the cost of setting up the type, and that of striking off and binding the copies published in the Colony ; also, to state whether the type has been kept up or distributed.” On the voices, the return was refused. Mr. Wakefield then called for a division with the same result, the ayes being 9, the noes 29. Mr. VOGEL intimated that the Government had no reluctance to give the House information on the subject. The return, if made now, would be imperfect, as only some two or three payments to contributors had been made, and they did not know what claims might be made. He did not know whether the cost of setting up could be ascertained. The other information would be given in the course of two or three weeks. Mr. WAKEFIELD said if the Premier had given that information at first, he would not have pressed the motion. ‘ REPORTING DEBATES. Mr. VOGEL moved, —“ That a Reporting Debates Committee be appointed, to consist of Mr. Curtis, Mr. Luclde, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Cuthbertson, Mr. Steward, Mr. Beeves, Mr. Harrison, the Honorable Mr. Reynolds, and the Mover." Carried. JUDGE WARD’S TELEGRAMS. Mr. J. L. GILLIES moved, —“ That copies of all correspondence, telegraphic or otherwise, in relation to complaints made by Judge Ward against Judge Chapman, be laid upon the table.” It would be unnecessary for him to say one word in support of his motion, after the straightforward and courteous reply which he received from the Premier yesterday. He would only remark that it was out of no idle curiosity that he had brought forward this matter, but from a sincere desire to have the true state of the question placed before the public, so as to set at rest the feeling that existed in the public mind in reference to the telegrams and correspondence referred to. Mr. VOGEL would express the hope that the time would come when this scandal—he could hardly call it anything else—would be forgotten. He therefore hoped it would not he deemed necessary to have the papers published in the appendix to the journals of the House. (Hear.) He would place the papers on the table on the earliest possible opportunity. Mr. FOX remarked as to the quarrel between the two judges—and a pretty quarrel it was as it stood—that he did not think there was any occasion for anybody else to meddle with it. Perhaps the residents in Otago might feel dissatisfied with the position in which the two members of the Bench were placed by the matter alluded to ; but the two Judges were not sitting on the same Bench, and were not likely to come into collision. The quarrel had no character which demanded the grave attention of the House ; it was not likely to disturb the current of justice and it might be safely left to vanish into obscurity. But there were one or two aspects of the matter which demanded the serious attention of the Government and of the House. The principal of these was that it was rather difficult to learn by what means the Daily Times became possessed of that which, if not a correct representation of the contents of the telegrams, it was yesterday admitted by the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government bore a close resemblance to them. It was perfectly evident that there must have been either very gross negligence on the part of somebody, or else gross breach of faith as to the negligence being with either of the individuals engaged in the quarrel, in their private capacity. The House had understood from the hon. gentlemen at the head of the Government that that was denied by each of them, therefore it might bo safely imagined the contents of the telegrams were not obtained through that channel. How, then, did they reach the Daily Times ? The only other channel was through the Telegraph Department; and that was a conclusion which he would bo very loath to arrive at. During a long and pretty close acquaintance with tho department, ho had never had any reason to believe otherwise than that the most strict and honorable course had been pursued in reference to such matters by tho operators or other people in the service. But there might have been in tho department cases of negligence which might have placed persons outside in

the way of seeing the contents of telegrams which were transmitted through the Government machinery. Cases of the bind occurred in other countries; and he believed in this. There was one in America a short time ago, in reference to the Presidential veto of the Currency Bill, when a person by listening through a wall, took down a message, and was able to use it on the Stock Exchange. That was one method of surprise into which the Telegraph Department was sometimes inveigled. Other cases were sometimes possible. Strangers might have been permitted to visit officers, and so messages might have leaked out sometimes. Another way was that parties sending telegrams might have left copies lying on the outer table of the Telegraph Office. There was a variety of ways within the oversight of the servants of the Government, in which the contents of a telegraph message might escape, and it was of the utmost importance that the public mind should be perfectly satisfied tbat it did not escape in this case through any oversight on the part of the officers of the department, or by any gross negligence which liad been overlooked by the controlling officer of the department. He thought it extremely desirable, if there had been a channel of communication between the telegraph and the newspaper—which should not have existed—that the House should take some steps to ascertain what that channel was. The head of the Government thought it impossible to discover it, and spoke of it being like the story of Junius’s letter or the history of the man with the iron mask ; but he (Mr. Eox) was free to express bis belief that if the right steps were taken they could tear the iron mask from the brazen face. The contents of telegrams were supposed to be absolutely secret in the hands of the Government. The House would recollect an instance when he was in office of an erroneous copy of a telegram sent 1 by him to one of the departments, he being in Otago at the time, appearing in the Wellington correspondent’s letter of an Otago paper. It was never absolutely ascertained bow that telegram was allowed to escape. A crime was committed, and the terms he used in condemnation of the person’s conduct, though made in the heat of the moment, he had never since regretted. The language he used in describing the conduct of the writer of the letter he referred to was certainly strong ; and that individual threatened him (Mr. Fox) with an action for libel. He (Mr 1 . Eox) at once defied him to bring his action ; because he was satisfied if be got the correspondent of the Daily Times into the witness box, it would not have been long in ascertaining from him, by means of an oath and cross-examination, how it was that telegraphic information escaped from the Government offices and reached the Daily Times.. But his lawyers saw, he (Mr. Eox) supposed, that the case was a disreputable one, and threw it up. He was informed subsequently that the person consulted another lawyer, who, he had reason to believe, saw that it was almost impossible to carry it to a successful result ; consequently the action ■was never brought, and he (Mr. Eox) was never given the opportunityin the face of the Supreme Court of the country of ascertaining how that telegram leaked out. That it was obtained by surreptitious and disgraceful means there could not be a shadow of doubt, but who was the guilty party, or how many were the guilty parties, was not within the knowledge of the Government at this moment. The Government nearly broke up the department, scattering it in various places, but it was never discovered by what individual, and by what particular channel, the telegram was exposed. Through some gross complicity with some person outside the office, bis telegram was surreptitiously and fraudulently communicated to a person, who was enabled to make use of it in the newspaper for his pecuniary reward, for newspaper correspondents were paid. He had called the person a “ doubly dyed character,” for it involved first of all the act of deliberate breach of confidence with the Telegraph Department of what occurred there, or on the other hand was a deliberate fraud. Therefore he deliberately used the expressions he did use, and had never regretted having done so. They hardly represented the character of the transaction. The action then taken had had a very good effect, for it prevented the repetition of such a betrayal of the official confidence of the country from that to the present time. He was sorry another instance had occurred of the same paper apparently manifesting a breach of confidence of a similar character, which it was requisite should be enquired into by the Government or a committee of that House, He hoped when the papers were laid on the table, as the Premier had freely and promptly agreed to do, the hon. member for Waikouaiti would lose no time in moving for a Select Committee to enquire into the whole subject, and enable the Government and the House to trace to the foundation a breach of confidence or gross want of ordinary precaution on the part of the department. Another point he wished to refer to, and in reference to which the Government had as yet made no sign, arose in connection with the case of Macassey v. Bell. The order made by Judge Chapman for the production of telegrams was highly unconstitutional and improper. He wished to know whether the Government intended to introduce any legislation this session to prevent the occurrence of such unconstitutional proceedings in the future. Such legislation was absolutely necessary, and the public would demand the inviolability of telegrams which passed through the hands of the Government. He saw no reason why copies of telegrams should be kept any more than copies of private letters. Mr. T. B. GILLIES said that there was more involved in these telegrams than mere personal feeling; they seriously affected the position of the administration of justice in the Colony, and as such were to be considered of greatest importance. The real subject was not so much a charge of favoritism made by one judge against another, nor yet how the telegrams became known to the newspaper. As for the statement of the hon. member for Kangitikei, as to keeping copies of telegrams, he could only say that it was often necessary to keep copies of important telegrams, or when the telegrams were sent by one person in the name of another. He should be glad to see the Bill promised brought in, and the whole question thoroughly inquired into.' Mr. J. L. GILLIES, in reply, said he concurred in the suggestion that a committee should be appointed to investigate the matter. The motion was agreed to. members’ telegrams.

Mr. MUKKAY gave notice of his intention to move a motion to tlie effect that members should have the use of the telegraphic department at Press rates during the session. NELSON LOAN BILL. The House resolved itself into committee of the whole to consider of giving leave to introduce a Bill intituled “ An Act to authorise the raising of a Loan of Two Hundred and Fifty Thousand Pounds for the purpose of constructing certain works of public utility in the Province of Nelson, and for charging the sums so borrowed against the said Province.” Agreed to. SUPPLY. The House resolved itself into a committee of the whole to consider the motion, —“ That a supply be granted to Her Majesty.” The motion was agreed to to the extent of £IBO,OOO. MESSAGES PROM THE GOVERNOR. Messages were read from His Excellency the Governor, transmitting drafts of the following Bills :—Supreme Court Judges Amendment Bill; State Forests’ Bill J Civil Service Act Amendment Bill; "Westland Loan Act, 1873, Amendment Bill; Post Office Saving Banks Act, ISC7, Amendment Bill ; New Zealand University Act Amendment Bill, which were considered In committee and reported. The House adjourned at five o’clock, p.m.