THE POLICE COMMISSION.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 1746, 23 August 1905, Page 64

THE POLICE COMMISSION.

SITTING IN WELLINGTON. INTERESTING EfVLDENOE. SUPERVISION OOF THE FORCE. SOME SUGGESTED IMPROVEMENTS. The Police Commission, consisting of Messrs H. W. Bishop, S.M. of Christchurch, and J. W. Poynton, Public Trustee, of Wellington, appointed by the Government to inquire into the Dunedin police scandals, and, further, into the efficiency .or otherwise of the present system of control and supervision of the force generally, compienced its Wellington sitting at the Magistrate’s Court Buildings on the 14th inst. The Commissioner of Police (Mr W. Dannie) was present. WESTPORT CONSTABLE’S EVIDENCE. Constable Hugh Chisholm, stationed at Westport, said he joined the force in August, 1882. He was in Dunedin until 1884, being transferred to South Dunedin, and then- to Port Chalmers. Latterly, whilst he was in Dunedin, the sergeants could always be depended upon. In fact, on one occasion witness was reported for not meeting the sergeant on his beat. Witness never heard of any kind of theft by the police force whilst he was in Dunedin. Hflhe police there were almost strangers to him, and principally young men and in his experience there he never heard of anything wrong. M3r Bishop: On the occasion you were reported, what was the result? Witness: Inspector Pardy took the sergeant’s side. He asked the latter if he had told me to meet him, and he replied that he had. Mr Poynton: Was it the practice m Dunedin in your time for the sergeants to make appointments with the men? —Yes. , Witness i requested to 'be allowed, to state a personal grievance. Commissioner Dmnie raised an objection. Mr Poynton remarked that personal grievances did not come within the references of the Commission. Mr Bishop: The references are definite and prescribed, and it is perfectly Useless to attempt to take personal grievances, because we could not even report upon them. We did admit in Dunedin what have appeared to fie a personal grievance, but it bore distinctly and directly upon the supervision and control of the force. Witness: In Auckland there was a grievance between the inspector and sub-inspector. Mr Poynton: That might be said to have grievously interfered with the question of supervision. Witness: I have a great grievance to explain, but if you object' Commissioner Dinnie: I do not actually object. I think it unwise. Mr Poynton: Well, what is your grievance? -=■ _ Witness: A regular conspiracy. I was charged with being drunk or under the influence of liquor. Commissioner Dinnie: But that was 3k long time ago.—About two years. I have been twenty-three years in the force, and was never accused before or sifter that of any offence. Mr Bishop: The matter was dealt with at the time, was it not? —Yes, but only as a matter of privilege. I Want the black mark standing against me wiped off the records. Commissioner Dinnie: I shall he pleased to receive representations from the witness. Mr Bishop: That • is properly a matter for the Commissioner to deal with. He does not consider himself hound irrevocably by the action of his predecessor. From what I know of Mr Dinnie, I should say he would give your case proper consideration; Lay the whole facts before him, and let him deal with them on proper lines. ■ >% Witness: Very good. In answer to the Commissioner, the witness stated that the years he was in Dunedin when he thought there were arrangements between the sergeants and constables were from 1884 to 1893. There were then four or five boats, hut as to that his memory was not quite blear. He knew when the sergeant was likely to visit him. There were about three visits a night. A DEPARTMENTAL MATTER. Constable John McDonald, stationed at Westport, stated that he was transferred to the force from the armed constabulary in 1884, since when lie had been in Westland all the time. Three months ago the sergeant at his station (Sergeant Cullen) reported himself sick, and went home. During his absence a phi p’s officer reported four deserters, and witness left the station with a constable to search for them. a«d was out

until midnight. He then got a letter from the inspector asking him why he had left the station without leave. Witness considered he was in charge of the station, and was only doing his duty. He was not punished. Commissioner Dinnie said this matter wis purely a departmental one, and hardly in the terms of the Commission. SUPERVISION IN WELLINGTON. Sergeant Cullen, of Westport, said he joined the force in August, 1877. He was in Christchurch as Court orderly for nearly eighteen yeans. He was promoted to Wellington on street duty, and then went £o Westport. Mr Bishop: You were in charge of the night police whilst in Wellington?— Yes Are the beats here good?—They are very long. Too long?—Yes. I was often almost too tired to walk after going my round. How many times did you visit the men ?—Sometimes three times —sometimes more. Then to particular men you gave attention?—'Some men I had no trouble with. Did you have any hand in arranging the men on their beats? —Yes. The duty roll was made out by the inspector, but the sergeant had the option of changing a man if he thought proper. Were your visit's of such a nature that the men knew where to .expect you?—Oil, no. Then we might call them surprise visits ?—Yes. Did you never make appointments to meet the men? —Never. I have heard of it be : ng done in Christchurch. Would the use of bicycles in Wellington by sergeants he of any assistance? —Oh, yes, both as to. speed and because they are very silent. Can you teH us anything regarding tho supervision by the inspector and sub-inspector of the sergeants?—l have met the inspector on the streets at 3 o’clock in the morning. I have not seen the sub-inspector, hut have heard that, he was out. If the heats here are too long what remedy would you suggest?—The only ono I see would be to place an equal number of sergeants at Mount C'ook, and divide the city, i That would give them plenty of work; still, they would have more time to look after the men. Some men did not require it. Witness said that in recruiting he thought it would be well if M.H.R.’s would not recommend men for admission to the force. ! Mr Bishop: Do you know that M.H.R.’s do ©oP—Ok, yes. I have seen cases. But you wouldn’t object to a man having a recommendation simply because it came from an M.H.R. ?—No, not if it were given as from a private gentleman. What you want to say, only I suppose you scarcely care to, is that you would like to see political influence abolished? —-Yes. When you say that, you have no knowledge that it does exist. It is easy enough to imagine it does, but it is quite another thing to say it does.—— A man was takon from my district &nd T had no knowledge that he was on the list until he was in the Wellington force. This was about a year ago. Mr Poynton: Be might have had references from elsewhere. —I think inquiries should be made right up to date. , ~ Q Probably that is the practice now?— Yes. In reply to Inspector Ellison, witness said that when he was in Wellington there was no hard and fast rule to make specified visits at night. If he thought one man needed supervision, he would go to see to him, even if he had to neglect others for several hours. Mr Bishop: You had practically a free hand? —Yes. How often did you visit the watchhouse P__That would depend upon my visits to the men. Sometimes at midnight sometimes not till 3 o’clock. Then the watchhouse would be without supervision?—Yes, except for the watchhouse-keeper. And he is practically alone there?— Yes; I saw in the proceedings of this Commission that a proposal has been made to place a sergeant in charge of watchouses. That is a good idea. Supposing a constable should he brought .in drunk, it would be better for a sergeant to be there rather than another constable. It would also be better in case of a serious offence being committed. In further examination by tho inspector. witness said the night sergeant frequently dropped in at the watchhouse unexpectedly. INSPECTOR ELLISON’S EVIDENCE. John W. Ellison, inspector in charge of the Wellington district since April, 1902, stated that tho number of constables available in tho city for street duty, when there wore no vacancies, was twenty-four at Lambton quay, three at Mannere street, seven at Mount Oook, and three at Newtown (including the constable in charge). There were twelve heats worked from Lambton quay under one sergeant, and six beats on day duty. At Mount Cook there were two night-duty heats, and at South Wellington one. The total number of constables on the night-duty beats, when all the stations were full-handed, was fifteen. Mr Poynton : Are there sufficient constables in Wellington?—Probably not,

but the greatest trouble here is the want of accommodation both at Lambton quay and Mount Cook. Have you made representations on that subject?—Yes; I have made them ever since I came here. If Mount Cook Station were properly provided with accommodation and equipped, there should be more men there on night duty. At present the accommodation was the worst that could possibly be conceived. Twelve men. and one sergeant in charge were hardly sufficient for complete supervision. The. sergeant had to work very hard to' carry out his duties. One or two Wellington sergeants used their own bicycles. If this were a regular thing, they should not be expected to pay for the bicycles. There were five real beats. The others were patrols, or long beats, taking from an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half to get over. When witness first came to Wellington, he saw a suggestion of visiting by sergeants at regular intervals, but he stopped it. He did not think it was going on now. He told one sergeant he would rather have one good visit than three pre-arranged ones. Witness considered that sergeants had the making of constables in a manner. There was, however, a great diversity in the men. If some were worth 7s a day others were worth £1 at least. Mr Poynton: It has been suggested to us that if men were taken into the force on probation, they could be got rid of if necessary.—Yes. I find that sometimes when we get rid of a man we get a worse one. What class of men are offering now? —Not the class who take to the force through a desire to be policemen. You can’t make a policeman unless the man wants to be one. What is the reason that a better class of applicants does not obtain ? Some say that times are too prosperous in other walks of life. Regarding your own duties?—The clerical work at the station is the greatest possible incubus. Work is piled on to the police by all departments. In fact, you are quite a clerk? —Yes, the sleeves of ray coat are worn out. The clerical work is double what it was fifteen years ago. The Railway Department. alone will sometimes keep two of our men going looking for lost parcels. That makes it hard for the inspector ? —Yes, hard for him to look after the force as he should do in the interests of the district. What can you recommend? —Well, it is a large question. A great deal of my work must go to the sub-inspector —a lot of it not bona fide police-work—-and I take it that as long as I am inspector I am responsible for it. Could not you and the sub-inspector bo relieved in a great measure by some internal arrangement in the office? — I think the district clerk should attend to a great deal of the work. My clerk has as much as he can do. Can you suggest anything?—Only that another inspector should be appointed, and that one of us should do the clerical and the other the outside work. What about a station-sergeant? Mr Bishop: Of course, he would he specially selected as suitable for the duty. Witness: I think station-sergeants are absolutely necessary, and I thought that when sub-inspectors were appointed there would he station-sergeants. Witness had been on street-duty practically every night since he came to Wellington. He stayed out until neaily 11 oclock, and thought that long enough. He put in on an average thirteen hours a day, and so did the sub-inspector. He visited out-stations as often as lio could, but not as often as he ought to. He knew of one man who was admitted to the force who had twice been convicted for offences. The constable who made inquiries on this man’s application was perfunctory. Witness always tried to give these matters his personal attention. Mr Poynton : We have had statements that thieving by the . police is going on in other places. Have you heal'd any rumours of it here? —No, nor any suggestion of it, and I don’t think it at all probable nor possible that it could go on either in Wellington or Christchurch—or in Auckland, either —at present. . Mr Bishop: Oh, one who was a thiet was in Christchurch. —I heard of one constable there putting his hand in a window and stealing some apples. From what I knew of him at the time, I believed that man would prove to he McDonald.

Where did you hear of it ?—At Christchurch.. n AX From a member of the force: It did not come from what I considered a reliable source. The reason 1 thought it would be McDonald was because I mistrusted him, as he had previously been caught drinking. It has been stated by four constables, all stationed in Christchurch in your time, that it was common talk that thieving was going on there amongst tho police.—l never heard ot it. Mr Poynton: Doors are frequently left open in Wellington, are they not. —-We occasionally find them open. Are any warehouse keys left with the police?— There are two in our charge. I may say that a number of shopkeepers leave goods outside their shops, and these are brought to the police station and restored. Asked by Mr Poynton how many men

he could take on without alteration t® present accommodation,. Inspector Ellison replied that it was already necessary to rent a house for twelve mean Not only Lambton quay, but Mount Cook station wanted enlarging. I® a few years it would be absolutely necessary to have proper accommodation. At the present time the lack of it interfered a good deal with supervision of the men. As to whether the creartion of the office of sub-inspector had been advantageous, to the force, witness said the sub-inspector was doing the work formerly done by two men. In addition to his other duties, the sub-inspector had a lot of extra work thrown on him in the way of correspondence. The inspect ox* had got to see all that was going on in bis district. But there was a lot of formal correspondence which could be attends ed to by. someone else. He would suggest that the district clerk, should only forward to the inspector important correspondence at his discretion, keeping back valueless matter. He thought the district clerk shouid. be a sergeant. Witness did not favour general classes for the instruction of constables in their duties, as he considered one practical lesson was better than fifty theoretical ones. . Mr Bishop: Have you found.it advantageous for the chief-detective to prosecute in Court ?—Decidedly, yes. It is a good plan if you have a capable man. You should not have a man as chiet detective if he is not capable.—But we have a capable man here. . It is not done in Dunedin. —I was not aware of it. . '* The relations between the sub-mspec-tor and yourself are cordial, I suppose? Oh, yes. I never had a quarrel with any sub-inspector or anyone else. But where friction occurs you think it should be remedied? —It would be very unpleasant. It is not a question of unpleasantness. It is a question of the efficiency of the f orce . —Well, I’m the best of friendswith the sub-inspector and the men. If witness knew that sergeants under his control were in the habit of paying visits so that the men could fairly accurately expect when to see them, he would very likely lie in wait. If he absolutely knew it was going on, he would report it to the Commissioner. He did not, however, believe in proxy evidence. He had spent many late nights in looking into complaints of men in the station, and always personally thrashed out any important matter reported to him.

To Commissioner Dinnie: Witness knew Mr Dinnie was not responsible for the transfer of McDonald from Christchurch to Dunedin. Two extra sergeants were needed at Mount Cook. He was frequently short of men, so much so that one constable often had to do two beats. Wellington needed two more sergeants and four more constables. The probation system might work all right if on dismissing a man at the end of six months they could get another suitable one. Extra supervision was necessary in Wellington if the staff was to be increased. If not, he could do no more. There was such a thing as having too much police. You don’t believe in such a thing as too many ranks?—No. When a man alleges he has been assaulted and a complaint is laid against the police in the matter, what would you do?—lf the complainant was satisfied for me to deal with the matter, I would institute full inquiries. If not, I would refer him to the Courts., As to incompetent men, witness thought inspectors ought to report them, but they wanted an accumulation of circumstances in such cases. They should be able to say definitely that a man was hopeless before reporting him. v Then they should report him at once. The inspector and sub-inspector here had a great deal more to do than in Christchurch fifteen years ago or in Auckland eight years ago. WORK OF A SUB-INSPECTOR. John O’Donovan, sub-inspector for the Wellington district, said he had filled that office since 1892. In addiction to station duties. Me had office duties to perform, the latter being very heavy. His first duty in the day was to attend to cases brought in the night before, and to the out-stations. Ho had to be at Court at 10 o’clock every morning, and was sometimes there all day, but the usual time he left on the three Police Court days was about noon. After the Court-, he was engaged in office work for "the greater part of the afternoon, and in attending to citizens of all classes, who were calling all day long. Very few of these could he attended to by the watch-house keeper. In the evening the correspondence seemed to be never-ending. Also people then found themselves free A and seemed to think it the most suitable time to call at the police station. Owing to callers, it was sometimes impossible to touch his correspondence until half-past nine at night. His work averaged thirteen hours a day, and it was very rarely that he could o-et on to the streets. Again, it was inconvenient that he should he out at the same time as the inspector. If a station-sergeant were appointed, a great many of witness s duties could pr o to that officer, namely, the constant supervision of prisoners, and of the watchhouse-keeper, attending to matters the watchhouse-keeper could not attend to on account of callers, to tho

men going out on their boats, or com,{ngr in, to escorts, and. to emergency calls at the station. If he were thus relieved by the appointment of a sta-tion-sergeant, witness would foe able not only to conduct cases in Court, but to control the mein on the streets, and at the out-staitions also. At present he could do practically nothing of this. It was essential to have station-ser-geants. An extra sergeant was also required to take charge of the station at night. This was essential for the safe discharge of police duties' in big cities. Two of the Wellington sergeants were first-class men —excellent disciplinarians, and just the type that was wanted. The third was a comparatively new arrival. As far as he could say, the system of supervision and control in Wellington was perfectly satisfactory, having in view the shortness of men. Witness proceeded to refer to the necessity for the inspector and himself living near the police station, and the difficulties accompanying the situation✓ He had, he said, had to make two moves, and pay the-expenses out of his own pocket, to get near. He paid rent equal to a quarter of his whole salary, namely, £72, whilst his house-allow-ance was £36. He was thus paying double what he drew for the purpose. Mr Bishop: Do you think the subinspector should live near the station ? —Yes. Regarding open doors referred to by the previous Mr o’Donovan said the invariable practice was for a sergeant to go next day with the constable to the particular premises where the door had been found open, and get an assurance that all was correct. If a station-sergeant were appointed, witness would willingly instruct the men. He could, for instance, give them a proper and necessary knowledge of all the city by-laws, and instructions for conducting small cases in Court. If, however, extra accommodation were not provided at Hamilton quay, nothing could be done. It was, he found, no use making Representations on the subject. Mr Bishop: You could not have a more perfect opportunity than this for full publication of the facts. There was, continued witness, no reason in the world to suppose that any thieving was going on here by the police. The only case of the kind he could recollect in Wellington was in 1884, when a constable was found with a pair of gloves in his pocket at a fire. The man was promptly dismissed. To Commissioner Dinnie: Was certain that with a station-sergeant he could exercise more supervision over the men. An educational class would, he considered, be beneficial to young constables, and drill would be advisable, if they had room for it. Mr Bishop: Th&re is a tremendous lot of slovenliness in the force all through the colony. Seme of the men seem to be unable to stand up. Commissioner Dinnie: A little drill .would shape them up to it. Mr Bishop: It would. Commissioner Dinnie: You find Wellington an expensive place to live in?— Very. Your allowance is not large enough? —I should like a little more. You ought to draw the attention of the authorities to the facts. —It might then happen that I would be shifted, which would not be convenient to me with, my family. I think inspectors and sub-inspectors at least should have free houses. Mr Bishop: Ah, hut that might also apply to. other branches of the public service. Commissioner Dinnie (to witness): I daresay the Commissioner feels the same on the subject as you do. Your system of supervision here is so good that no thieving could go on?—We can't make mp»n honest any more than banking or other institutions can. Mr Bishop : But you can have a perfected system of control. We have found that in Dunedin men were able to be off their beats all night, and that the watchhouse-keeper could leave the station without anyone being the wiser. Witness said there was nothing to prevent the watchhouse-keeper being inattentive to his duties, to say the least, even though there was more supervision now than years ago. A Bergeant ought to he in charge of the watchhouse. Sometimes they found a constable and watchhouse-keeper had a difficulty in deciding what offence a man had committed. Mr Bishop: The constable surely knows what he has arrested a man for? —Not always. That is ; he does not know what to charge him with. Mr Bishop: Oh, purely a technical difficulty. Inspector Ellison t No matter what supervision you have on night duty, is it not necessary that you should have energetic sergeants?—Yes. Are they not the back-bone of the supervision of the force ? —They certainly are, especially the one on night duty. If there were a school of instruction or drill, you would have to take the men off duty to attend? —Yes. Only night duty men could he sent to drill. That would mean that they would bd practically working overtime for an hour and a half at least?—Yes. You and I get on very well, I suppose ?—Very well. Mr Bishop: It is quite refreshing to

find some people getting on well together. Witness: The only cause of friction here is the amount of work. Mr Bishop; Yes. You haven’t time to quarrel, I suppose? Inspector Ellison: "'Just what I was going to ask. Witness: There is no cause for quarrelling. A SURGE ANT S LOT. Sergeant George Hastie, now stationed in Wellington, stated that there was too much work at night for one sergeant with twelve men, the watch-house-keeper to look after, and the beats to go round. He rede a bicycle—his own—and found it very convenient. Them were only two men on beats on the Thorndon side of the police station, all the rest being on the other side, up as far as Ingestre street. Witness paid 18s for house-rem:, ana was allowed 10s 6d, and then had to live a long way from the station. As sergeant, he got 6d a day more than before promotion, but was actually Is a day worse off than on a country station, and was harder worked. THE EDUCATION TEST. Sergeant Douglas Gordon, in charge of the Mount Cook training station, said he gave seven weeks’ instruction to recruits. He would insist upon a man passing the Fifth Standard before coming to the depot at all. The majority of the men Who came to him were of inferior education. Mr Bishop : Would there be any ci. culty in getting men of higher education ? —I think so. The men are very much underpaid, considering that the class of men we want must be honest and thoroughly reliable. The recruits you teach are mostly young colonial-born men, are they not ? —Yes. And is that the result, in your experience, of our colonial national education ? —Yes. That is an extraordinary statement to make.—Well, that is my experience. Mr Poynton: It would seem that no effort is made to induce Sixth Standard men to join the force. Commissioner Dinnie: I suppose the men would pass the Fifth Standard examination on leaving you? Witness: No. The majority would only be lit for the police examination, as far as I can see. Commissioner: Dinnie: What should be done with applicants for the force? —Full inquiries should be made, and the inspector should be held responsible if a man turned out a bad character. He should report himself to the inspector first. Mr Bishop: That wouid not give you his life history.—Very often his appearance would tell you what he was. Mr Poynton: Moses and McDonald were men of good appearance. Commissioner Dinnie: You think if we made it compulsory for a man to pass the Fifth Standard we should get a better class of men? —Well,-we might try it. The present system has not been a success. Inspector Ellison: Are there not men who would make excellent constables even though they could not do a sum in arithmetic? —Probably, but the chances would be better if the man had education. EXPENSIVE PROMOTION. Sergeant Routledrre, of the Wellington force, corroborated the evidence of previous witnesses as to the difficulties of sergeants in carrying out their duties, particularly at night. He complained that as sergeant he only drew 6d per day more than the men he controlled. Yet it took him eighteen years to attain his present rank. He paid £1 for house-rent, and drew 10s 6d. so that he was out of pocket through promotion. Constable Michael Murphy and Detective 'William Edward Lewis gave evidence as to the efficient work done by the Wellington sergeants. ARE ROMAN CATHOLICS FAVOURED? Constable William J. Simpson, on being called to give evidence, put a new complexion on the proceedings by bringing up the question of preference in appointing commissioned officers. He stated that there was a grievance amongst certain members of the force regarding control and administration, namely, that preference had been given to Roman Catholics. Mr Bishop: Are you speaking of Wellington?—Of the colony in general. It is a very serious allegation you are making.—l can give you facts. In 1878 there were 311 Protestants and 222 Roman Catholics in the force, and of these seven Roman Catholics and two Protestants were appointed inspectors. It is felt that that is not a fair proportion. Mr Poynton: But supposing the Protestants were not qualified for the positions ?—Then it speaks badly for the brains of the Protestants! Mr Poynton: The reason why there are so many Irishmen in the colony is that there are no manufactories in Ireland. The men who would otherwise work there come over here and drift either into hotel-keeping or the police force. The majority of the Roman Catholics here may be men of superior education. —No, there is a strong Roman Catholio influence. Mr Bishop: And what is the cause of itp—l don’t know. Protestants have told me repeatedly that they feel sore

at having to “play second-fiddle” to men not superior to them in ability. •; Mr Poynton: A man is not a judge of bis own ability. Can you give us more facts? —Yes. . Well, do so. —An inspector, now m the force, was appointed a first-class constable in 1893. Shortly afterwards he was promoted and sent to Hastings, and he is now an inspector. Perhaps he was a capable man. —I don’t know where he shone. Protestants only want their fair and just due. Wouldn’t you say the best men should be appointed? If this question of religion were to be gone into it would-' be very awkward. —The seven men I refer to can he produced, and I am sure there is nothing extraordinary about them that they should have been given preference. Give us more facts. If there are such i suspicions abroad amongst members of the force, they should he allayed if possible.—ln 1896 Messrs Pratt and Cullen were appointed inspectors. They are both Roman Catholics. In 1899 Messrs Ellison and Gillies were appointed. They are Protestants. In 1900 and onwards Messrs Ryan, McDonnell, I Kyley, Wilson, and Mitchell were ap-j pointed. The last five are Roman Catholics. But that doesn’t go to show that these men were not the best available. —I have known them all intimately. Mr Bishop: Have Messrs Ellison and Gillies shown ability?—l don't know. They are very good policemen, the whole lot of them! Mi* Poynton: If all appointed happened to he Roman Catholics that might give rise to suspicions, but it does not say they were not the best men.—lt must be admitted that the Roman Catholics have got the best proportion of the best positions in the force. The Commissioners: That doesn’t prove anything. . Mr Bishop: It would be highly improper to consider the religious persuasion of any man, in the police force or any other public service.—l have told you facts, and given you the names of the men. Yes; but we have only got your deductions. Mr Poynton: Inspector Cullen did remarkable service in connection with the detection of sly grog-sellers in the King Country. No other man had been able to do what he did.—Mr Cullen is a very good policeman. Mr Bishop: But do you think there are better men? —I haven’t been far in the colony. . . Mr Poynton: In Auckland it was said that Inspector Cullen exercised his influence on behalf of a Roman Catholic, but the Commissioner has undertaken to prove that that is wrong. Mr Bishop: Do you say there is a f general impression in the force or* Eie _ ines you mention P j

Witness : Yes. Commissioner Dinnie: Can you mep^ 1 tion the names of the constables whd think Roman Catholics have had undub preference ?—I would not like to d<K that. Have you made representations to me on the subject ?—No. Why not?—Well, I knew the Oonir mission was coming here, and, it m'ght have been considered pre» sumption on my part as an inferior! officer. . . , By the regulations, it was your duty to mention the matter to me. Yoil -have a little grievance of your own 1 , have you not ? —No. You applied for promotion once when in Taranaki? —Yes. • You were transferred to Taranaki r Yes: Was there a reason? —There was. .. If I show you a return proving you? statement to be incorrect, would it clear your mind of those impressions P< Yes. It would be a good thing tb so disabuse the minds of those who have suspicions. None of the -constables in Wellington told me this. I Where, then?—Oh, in Canterbury. | Sub-Inspector O’Donovan proceeded to cross-examine witness, naming several prominent officers in tile force, and calling upon him to declare what their religion was. The witness wab at sea as to most of them, though he classified one or two as Protestants, and some as Roman Catholics. No preference was given to Roman Catholics in joining the police force. He thought the ventilation of this subject would do good. ... The sub-inspector: Do you think it will do good to ventilate it without proofs? I consider it will do harm. Mr Poynton: A clamour was raised in New South Wales over the same supposition, ai 1 investigation, proved it to be wrong. If it is wrong here, it is our duty to bring facts to prove it so, and if right, we should come at the truth. Mr Bishop: I deplore, personally, the raising of these questions—l have no sympathy whatever with them. If suspicions do exist, and a man has the courage to come fonvard and say so, the matter should, however, be thrashed out in the interests of the service. Sub-Inspector O’Donovan asked that Commissioner Dinnie should be requested to furnish a record showing the appointments of commissioned officers in the force. Commissioner Dinnie: How far back shall I go for this return? The sufo-inspector: To 1870 would do. Mr Bishop: This only l’aises a question that can absolutely benefit no one at all. I have been for over thirtythree yens in The public service, and for twenty-five years a Magistrate, and have come into intimate contact with the police. I know both Roman

Catholics and Protestants amongst 4-lhVfm and, in my experience* there are teood 5 men in both creeds, .and they discharge their duties to the best or hheir ability. If this feeling exists, it does so on the part of some man who —though he may not care to mention it—has a grievance. I do not believe that in this democratic country there is preference given in appointments m the police force, and I shall be very pleased if Mr Dmme can prove the statements that have been made to be ■wrong. Commissioner Dinnie undertook to furnish the information required. -The Commission adjourned until halfpast ten next morning. WELLINGTON SITTING CONCLUDED. COMMISSIONER DINNEEPS EVIDENCE. DUNEDIN INSPECTOR CRITICISED. NO INFLUENCE OF VALUE TO CONSTABLES. The Police Commission, consisting of Messra H.. W. Bishop, S.M., and J. W. Poynton,'resumed its Wellington sittmg «£ the Magistrate’s Court buildings on the 15th instant. THE AUCKLAND SUB-INSPECTOR. Mr Bishop called 7 Inspector Ellison, Stating, that he had. received a telegram from Sub-Inspector Black, of Auckland, requesting him* to ask the inspector to to the Commission his opinion of Mr Black as a police officer. Inspector Ellison said he knew Black as a sergeant in Wellington, some years sgo, also, in Auckland and Dargaville. He had always looked upon him as a very hard-working, zealous, man, who never shirked any work that was put upon him. Mr Black went to Christchurch as- sub-inspector four or five months; after witness went there. They got on very well. Had always found him a careful, honest, and hard-working man. DUNEDIN? SUPERVISION. Sergeant W?illiam Lyons stated that he had-been in Wellington for five years past,, having, formerly been stationed in all centres m the colony. From his experience in Dunedin it would probably have been better if irregular visits by the sergeants had been the rule. It would not be passible in Wellington for the men to giet together on night duty and go round robbing places, as was done in Dunedin. In Dunedin, although the sergeants talked about the difficulties of supervising the men working the beats, they did not draw the attention. of the authorities to the fact, and things went on until the scandals occurred; To Commissioner Dinnie.: Probably the petty larcenies would not have gone On had. there been proper supervision in ifrunedin. THE APPOINTMENT OF MOSES. Sir William J. Steward, M.H.R., was called, Mr Bishop informing him that it had come to- the knowledge of the Commissi on that, he had. on; one or more occasions recommended Moses for admission. to ther force. Witness stated that about two years ago* Moses came to him in Waimate, and inquired as to joining the police. Hta showed witness proofs that he had been serving in. South Africa in one of the contingents, and his papers were

quite satisfactory. Physically, he looked a very good recruit. Witness knew that Moses* parents lived in his electorate. He did not know them, but had never heard anything against them. He gave Moses a form to fill up, and forwarded bis application in the usual way, as he had hundreds of others in the thirty years he had been an

M.H.R. Moses also produced evidence from a clergyman (the Rev Mr Brady) as to character. Some months later witness again applied for consideration of the man’s application. He submitted he had every possible reason for sending him forward under the circumstances. He had written to the department regarding a number of other candidates. Francis McParland, who also recommended the man Moses, stated that he did so on account of knowing him in the artillery force. He knew nothing against Moses, and from his appearance he thought him a very suitable candidate for the force. MR T. E. TAYLOR PROVIDES AN INTERLUDE. At this stage, Mr T. Taylor, M.H.R., rose, and said He wished to know whether the Commission had power to listen to a matter he wished to bring forward. Mr Bishop read the reference of the Commission for Mr Taylor’s information Mr Taylor: I beHeve, after hearing the reference, that the matter I wish to refer to-—dealing as it does entirely with- the Commissioner himself and his administration—-is not in the scope of the inquiry. I only came here because I thought it would have saved a lot of trouble. However, I will now deal with it on the floor of the House. Mr Bishop said lie had received several letters from Mr Taylor and others, and he had in each instance inquired into them with the view of stopping any abuses, and had in some cases been successful. A SERGEANT’S GRIEVANCE. Sergeant Thomas Griffiths, stationed at Manners street, stated that he had done night duty in Dunedin. He had reported to Inspector O’Brien that the beats there were unworkable through being too long. No change was made. As to whether, with proper supervision, the thefts could have taken place, witness defied any sergeant to control dishonest men. Thieving could, in his opinion, go on in Wellington if the men were dishonest. There was no discipline at all in Dunedin. Everything was at sixes and sevens. The inspector had himself to blame for that. Witness went on to allege that certain constables had conspired against him because he was straight and strict. “ I believe,” he said, “ that my affair caused the Dunedin scandals, because through their conspiracy against me they combined. And these are the men that are now in gaol, whilst I see another of them in Court.” (Witness indicated an ex-constable who was sitting in Court). “He is here to give evidence against me.” Commissioned' Dinnie: You have a grievance against Inspector O’Brien?— Oh, I have, sir. Witness wanted the regulations amended, so that in case of complaint against a member of the force, such individual might have the same privilege as the inspector of choosing either the Commissioner or two Justices to hear "the evidence. There would, he contended, never be discipline in the New Zealand force until this privilege was granted. His own case was sufficient. He had been reduced in rank, and on his oath he swore .he- was never guilty of the' charges which led to his reduction; Witness thought there ouedit to be an Appeal Board for the police; Both the Railway and Telegraph Departments: hadi one. He asked to be allowed to mention the. treatment he had received in Dunedin, which, he said,, struck at the root of all discipline. The Commissioners ruled that witness having been reinstated the matter was closed. Ex-Constable Juriss: May I speak? Mr Bishop: No. You had a full and; fair hearing in Dunedin and a lawyer to assist you We fail to see why you. should speak here. At Juriss’s request, Mr Bishop info: med witness that Juriss never said a : word reflecting on witness, but had said, on the contrary, that the latter wts in no way responsible for the oleav.aga in the police force at Dunedin. COMMISSIONER DINNIE’S STATEMENT. Walter Dinnie, Commissioner of Police for New Zealand, then gave evidence. He said the system here was that the Commissioner remained in Wellington during the Parliamentary session, and during the recess he visited as far as he could the various districts and stations, so as to obtain a knowledge of the working of the force. This he considered essential. Witness’s work kept him on duty from 9 til! 5 every day, the correspondence being somewhat voluminous. As a result of his tours and interviews with officers in charge, witness was certainly not satisfied with the system of supervision, Consequently he had had a conference with the different inspectors. The result of this conference was that he drew up certain requisitions to the

Minister for Justice. These he had not submitted, because in the meantime the Dunedin matter cropped up, and witness went there and made investigations. The recommendations he had. drafted, however, he now handed in to the Commission, with one or two additions made since it had sat. Mr Bishop read the recommendations, in the form of a letter to . the Minister, as follows: — RECOMMENDATIONS. The Hon. the Minister of Justice,— I have the honour to submit for your favourable consideration and approval a recommendation for certain changes in the organisation of the police force which I consider absolutely necessary In order to provide for the proper, super vision and control of the force, t e tection of property, and effective performance of police work generally. Since my appointment as Police Commissioner, I have embraced all opportunities of visiting nearly the whole ol the police stations in the colony, devoting special attention to the four centres and obtaining a thorough knowledge ot the system of supervising the men, and executing the general work appertaining to the department, and, as a result, 1 tmd that owing to the great increase of the population, and consequent increase or general police work, a better system _ot supervision and method of performing the general work is now indispensable with the view to the efficiency of the force. . . The Boyal Commission on the police force was held in 1899, and subsequent provision was made for what was then considered necessary for the proper supervision and efficiency of the force, •but since then, although the population has largely increased, and the police work accordingly, no change has been effected with the view to cope with the additional work accruing to the offices of those in charge, and responsible for the supervision and: control of the men in the various police districts, hence in cities their whole time is engaged in clerical and Court work, and the supervision of those under their control is much neglected. The approximate increase in the population of the four centres, and additions to the strength of the force since March 1899, are as follows: — Population. Police. Auckland and suburbs ... 8.3T9 25 Wellington and suburbs 10.688 10 Christchurch and suburbs 7,372 15 Dunedin and suburbs ... 9,446 7 35,825 57 The statistical returns for the year ended March 31st last, as compared with March; 1899. shows an increase of all offences dealt with by police of 4201; and ; all other police work has grown to such an extent that the inspector and sub-in-spector in charge of city districts have little time to devote to the supervision of the men being fully engaged in the executive work of the department. It is obvious that officers in charge of city districts should be in a position to make occasional nocturnal surprise visits to their subordinates as well as daily visits, as too much reliance cannot' be placed in sergeants, some of whom shirk their duties and permit the men to take advantage of their neglect, and with this view, assistance must be rendered to those in charge to enable them to be relieved from part of their clerical and Court duties, and pay more attention to the supervision of their men. I consider the duties- which have at present to be performed by sub-inspectors more onerous, exacting, and of more importance than those accruing to inspectors in. charge of out er districts, and it is of the utmost importance to secure the

services of the best qualified officers for city work, as at present some of the subinspectors are not equal to the police work and supervision required in the four centres, and are not giving- satisfaction in the performance of their respective duties. I also consider it was an error of judgment to equalise the salaries of district inspectors in charge of outer districts with those in charge of large centres, a* there is no comparison as regards the responsibilities and police work appertaining to the two positions. With the view, therefore to provide for the necessary supervision of the force and proper execution of the increased general work, I strongly recommend the following changes which I am satisfied will meet all present police requirements, and will ensure the efficient performance of all police work, the additional cost being inconsiderable. . (1) That in future the four centres instead of being supervised by a district inspector and sub-inspector, as at present, should be supervised by a district superintendent, an inspector, and station sei> geant, as follows: — (2) That four district inspectors be selected for promotion to the rank of district superintendent with a salary of <£4oo per annum, rising by annual increments of <£lo to ,£450. Their duties to consist of the general supervision of their districts, the charge of all outer stations and police work connected therewith, to deal with all defaulters, correspondence and accounts forwarded to and emanating from headquarters, and to pay occasional daily and nocturnal visits to the sergeants and men stationed in cities, as well as visiting outer stations. (3) That four inspectors be selected to take charge of the four cities and suburbs. and be responsible to their superintendents for all police work arising therein, as well as the supervision of the men, to conduct prosecutions when necessary in special eases, and to pay varied nocturnal surprise visits as well as visits during the day to their subordinates; all night visits to be recorded. (4) That the pay of all inspectors appointed hereafter be <£3oo per annum, rising by annual increments of <£lo to <£3so, in lieu of <£3oo to <£4oo as hereofore. (5) That the rank of sub-inspector, which has proved unsatisfactory, be abolished, and that of station sergeant substituted. (6) That a specially selected station sergeant be appointed to each of the four centres to assist the inspectors

in the general work of the department, to conduct all ordinary prosecutions so as to relieve the inspectors and enable them to pay more attention than hitherto to the supervision of the sergeants and men under their charge. (7) That the station sergeant appointed to this dnty receive an extra allowance of Is 6d per day in addition, to his pay. (8) That each of the four centres be augmented by one sergeant and six constables for ordinary relief duty to provide for the necessary reduction in the size of the beats, the protection of property and the proper supervision of the men. _ . The present supervision is unsatisfactory, some of the beats are much too large, and it is practically impossible for one sergeant (as at present) to pay the necessary surprise visits to the men during the night, whereas with two sergeants, the visits .could be made alternately so that one of the sergeants could be constantly at the station and could attend to any important matters arising there. (9) That the position of district clerks be that of sergeant instead of constable as at present to improve their status, provided they have over ten years' service, as the men so employed are of superior education, and have important and trustworthy duties to perform. It is also desirable they should hold that rank at outer districts where only one relief sergeant is stationed, so that they could -give instructions in the absence ©f the relief sergeant. (10) That a weekly instruction class be formed in each of the four centres, superintended by the station sergeant, with compulsory attendance until members have over twelve months' service, the object being to instruct young members in educational knowledge and general noliee work.

(11) That a system of drill at least once a month be introduced in the cities with the view to improve the appearance of the men, some of whom are somewhat slovenly in gait and slow in action. Some arrangement might possibly be made with the Defence Department to provide a drill instructor for this purpose. (12) That the following police stations be included in the Auckland instead of the Napier district, as they are mucn more accessible and much more easily supervised from Auckland, and mail communication is more dircet viz.Kati Kati, Opotiki, Omaio, Rotorua. Te •Whaiti. Tan ran ga, Te Puke,’Whakatane. (13) That the Nelson police district, including the Port, Collingwood, Richmond, and Spring Grove be attached to Wellington instead of Westland police district, as the means of communication with Wellington are much better, and the supervision of Nelson could be more easily administered from that centre than from Greymouth. I have already applied for five sergeants twenty constables for ordinary police duties, and if this scheme is approved and the augmentation sought authorised, the additional annual expenditure will be as follows, viz.:— Increase. j —' <£ Four inspectors to be. superintendents— One inspector now receiving ,£4OO, increase to .£4lO ... 10 Two inspectors, each receiving ,£375, increase to .£4OO ... 50 One inspector now receiving .£350, increase to £4OO ... 50 Four sub-inspectors to be inspectors— One sub-inspector now receiving £270, increase to £3OO ... 30 Three sub-inspectors, each receiving £260, increase to £3OO 120 Four station sergeants at 9s 6d A per day, plus Is 6d allowance ... ... ... ... 803 Fourteen constables at 7s per day 1788 Total £2851 Witness said, despite letters of recommendation from M.H.R.’s and others, he always selected the most suitable men for the force, and the Minister for Justice had told him to do so, and supported him. The inspector should be made responsible for reports on candidates, and under him, the sergeant of the district where the inquiry was to be made. The lives of candidates from the time they left home should he inquired into. As regarded the admission to the force of ex-constable Moses, inquiry was made as to his character in

the artillery. During the time he was in South Africa and in the permanent militia here his character was good. Menses’ papers were sent both to Christchurch and Waimate for inquiry. The constable at the latter place reported that Moses was very highly spoken of as honest, sober, and straightforward. As a result of all this, his name was put on the list in February, 1903 (before witness came here), and remained on the list until March Ist. 1904, on which date he was selected and sent on to the drill ground. In the meantime Sir William Steward wrotfe recommending the man. Witness did not think he himself would have placed Moses’ name on the list on the strength of the papers in question. Mr Bishop: At that time, was it understood that troopers who had served in South Africa should have preference?

Witness said he believed it was. These troopers had not given tion; they were not up to the average. Moses’ appointment was not got by influence. Witness, on receiving news of the Dunedin thefts, went down to investigate. He first interviewed the police . officers and men. After their conviction he interviewed the prisoners. Acted on the statements so far he felt safe to do so. A number of men—twelve or fifteen—had left the service since, as a result of the inquiry, but there might possibly still be some in the service who might have been, in some slight way, connected with those larcenies.

Regarding supervision, witness considered the inspectors were responsible. Inspector O’Brien (Dunedin), when his attention was called to the fact that his sergeants could not do their work properly, because of the long beats, did not take the proper course. He should have examined the beats and have applied to witness for more men. Witness was. satisfied these larcenies were going on for a number of y'-ars. For the lack of supervision in Dunedin the blame could only rest upon the inspector and sub-inspector. Witness next touched upon the question of religion that had been raised. Inspector Cullen (Auckland) had, he said, been accused of recommending a Roman Catholic for appointment. He (Mr Dinnie) handed in a v list of Mr Cullen’s recommendations since 1899, which would, he said, show the case to be quite the reverse to what was alleged. Mr Bishop (after reading the list): Yes; that certainly puts a differentcomplexion upon it. Witness then submitted lists of officers taken over from the Provincial Government, and of those appointed by the State Government, also a list of the whole force, showing the religion and rank of each, and giving the separate districts. He proceeded to review the various suggestions made during the course of the inquiry, dealing with the question of probation (which he did not favour), district clerks, etc. Coming to the friction in Auckland between the inspector and sub-inspector, witness said the latter seemed to have imagined things, and worked himself up to such a pitch that he could n,ot control himself. He knew witness was investigating the matter, and that he wpu Id be transferred. -He was very unwise to bring the matter before the Commission, and witness could not imagine why he had done so, unless it was that he wanted to “show up” the inspector. At a Later stage, Mr Bishop asked how the Commissioner intended to deal with the matter. He hoped he would lose no time in separating Inspector Cullen and Sub-Inspetcor Black. Commissioner Dinnie: I am told they’ are now good friends again. Mr Bishop: Then this Commission has justified its existence. Witness, in reply to Mr Bishop, said he would he very glad if members of Parliament would refrain from urging the appointment of men to the force. Of course, they had a perfect right to recommend them, but it was pressure that was not desirable. Witness had interference from M.H.R.’s on many occasions, and he would be glad if it could be stepped. Asked by Mr Poynton what his opinion was with regard to employing men according to their religion, witness said he never paid any attention to that. He wanted the best men irrespective of creed. Mr Poynton i-ead from the return

handed in by witness figures showing that when the force was taken over from the Provincial Governments there were eighteen Protestants and six Roman Catholics. Now it happened that there was a majority of Catholics, but probably as time went on the Protestants would predominate again. He also said .that the statements made to the effect that Inspector Cullen, of Auckland, had used his influence to get a Roman Catholic appointed were incorrect. The return handed in by Mr Dinnie showed that out of twenty of his recommendations, only four were Roman Catholics. He had recommended three for promotion as sergeants, and all were Protestants. Thie (Commissioners examined Com- ‘ missioher Dinnie on other matters of detail, the proceedings closing at 5 p.an., thus terminating the sitting.