HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 1650, 14 October 1903, Page 60

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

MONDAY, OCTOBER 5. The House met at 7.30 p.m. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time : —Legitimation Act Amendment Bill, Interpretation Act Amendment Bill, Intestates’ Estates Bill. Commissioners Bill, Native Townships Amendment BillMILITARY PENSIONS. The second reading of the Military Pensions Act Amendment Bill was moved by Mr Seddon. The Bill provides for allowances being made to men who have received injury

in course of military service or illness directly attributable to such service ; or, in event of death, to wife, child, mother or sister. , The PREMIER stated that the Bill was necessary to meet an insufficiency in the Act of 1902, to grant pensions to those soldiers who had been incapacitated by wounds or illnesses received otherwise than in action. Mr MASSEY supported the Bill, but regretted that it did nob refer to veterans of the Maori war.

Mr JENNINGS agreed with the previos speaker. Mr JAMES ALLEN complained that the Bill did not go far enough, and that the Old Country was ahead of New Zealand in that respect. He blamed the Premier for not dealing with the colony’s soldiers as liberally as he should have done, and stated that Parliament was not doing its duty in this macter.

Sir JOSEPH WARD reminded members that no matter liow much they might wish to consider the men wounded or incapacitated by illness, there was such a thing as mistaken zeal. One would think that nothing had been done for the men who had fought for their country, when as„n matter of fact they were receiving double pensions, colonial and Imperial. It was the duty of members not to create a wrong impression abroad by an pin just attack on the administration in the matter of these pensions, or to make political capital out of any Bill dealing with them.

Mr BUCHANAN was one of these who considered the Bill did not go far enough.

Mr lIEKE thought it time some recognition of Maoris who had fought for Britain during the Maori war should be given. Many petitions had been made to the Parliament not for money, buc for land grants, and nothing had ever been done. Pie admitted that chiefs and leading men had received pensions, but what of those who had served, under them ?

The Hon J. McGOWAN sympathised with Mr Heke’s view of the question. He considered that the present Bill should have been supported wit hop t argument by .members on both sides of the House.'

The PREMIER, in reply, expressed regret that the question of party had been raised at all. The Bill before the House was merely to make effectual what he thought was the intention of the Parliament when the prior Act was passed. Proper provision should be made for those who had suffered, hut the door must not be opened too wide or there were those who would not scruple to take advantage of it. ‘ This colony was treating its sufferers more generously than the Mother Country was doing, and it was impossible to go farther with safety. The second reading was carried on the voices. FIRE PREVENTION. The second reading of the Fire Prevention Bill was taken. The Bill provides for the constitution of fire boards, consisting of seven members—one oil behalf of the Governor, three to bo elected by the insurance companies and three by the local authority of the district. The expense is to be borne in two equal shares by the insurance companies and the local authority. The local authority’s contribution may be raised by a separate rate. The duties of the board are to establish and maintain an efficient brigade and properly equip it. Every brigade existing in a fire district oil the commencement of the Act shall be subject to the control of the board, and the equipment provided for or belonging to the brigade (except in the case of a volunteer brigade) shall be the property of and vest in the board. The PREMIER said that fire brigades had asked Parliament to recognise their services and to put them on a better footing than they were at the present time. Whether he had gone too far or not far enough he would leave for members to say in committee. One thing must be avoided, and that was a clashing of the fire brigades with local bodies. He thought the measure was a long-felt want. Mr AJTKEN considered there was necessity for legislation in the direction that the Bill went, hut he did not think it would solve the difficulties that existed at the present 1 time. He contended that the creation of the boards proposed in this measure was not wise, as there would be far too many. He suggested that one hoard in each of the four centres was sufficient. As a matter of fact, he thought it a mistake to tahje the fire brigades from the control of the local authorities. The provision made for the insurance companies’ moiety to the expense of the board’s upkeep was an unfair one. Then, how could a municipality be expected to give up its brigade, buildings and plant to a board for nothing, as the Bill provided ?The Bill was not practicable. Mr WILEORD was satisfied it was time something should be done to bring fire insurance companies to a sense of their duty. Their position in regard to firo brigades hitherto had been a standing scandal. He was pleased to see the Government departments brought under the rating clauses. Mr J. O. THOMSON thought the Bill might be termed a Bill for the payment of higher premiums by the people of the colony for extinction of fire. It was an extraordinary Bill, and, as it stood, not deserving of the support of

£ho House. He strongly objected to any further rates being placed on the people's shoulders. The Bill was too vast for the colony, and the powers for borrowing money would have disastrous results. Mr DUTHIE thought it would be . bettor to leave the Bill over for another session. The insurance companies would protect themselves, and if half the cost of maintaining 'these boards was put upon them, the public would have to pay in the end. He saw no necessity for -the boards at all. The rating was to be on land, and as land was on© of the things that would not burn, he failed to see where the connection came in. As far as Wellington was concerned, the citizens woud be unwilling to any change in the present system. It was undoubtedly a public conviction that insurance companies should contribute to the maintenance of fire brigades, although he thought it somewhat of a fallacy himself. Mr FOWLDS felt certain that the public wanted a Bill of the kind, but some of its clauses would bear alteration. For instance, he considered the proposed small districts should be replaced by provincial areas. . If the Hill was carried a rise in premiums would undoubtedly follow. He thought that if fire brigades and plants were to be taken over, it should be done at valuaMr TANNER, whilst favouring the second reading of the Bill, thought that after exhaustive debate it should be allowed to stand over until next session. This Bill would create eighteen new local bodies. . .. Mr ELL believed strongly in the Bill, but he thought/ it should bo held over until local bodies had had a chance to discuss it. 1 . Mr SIDEY supported the Bill, but he thought borrowing powers should be limited according to the size and power of the nruncipalicy. Mi BUDDO admitted that the scheme was one that might fit the larger cities, but these were already well equipped in the fire brigade line. He believed the insurance companies should bear some part of the cost of up-keep of bp 1 gad os, but he was not at one with the proposals on the subject in the Bill before the House. Mr HOUSTON was doubtful as to what effect the Bill would have on scattered districts. ' Mr BARBER considered it was unfair to those local bodies which had. already provided up-to-date fire brigades that, they should not receive some compensation for the outlay incurred by them on handing over their duties to these boards. Mr HOGG, whilst in favour of the objects of the - measure, pointed ouc that the Bill proposed to take the control of the brigades from responsible bodies and place it in the hands of another body over which the ratepayers had no control whatever. His main objection, was that the Bill had not received sufficient consideration from . those most likely to be affected by it. Mr E. G. ALLEN said the Bill was in the right direction, and wouid do a great deal of good. Mr BAUME, whilst approving of the principles, had. many objections to its general clauses. Mr BUCHANAN said the consensus of opinion seemed to be that the Bill should not be proceeded with this session. ' . Mr DAYEY maintained that the Bill was a crude one. and would operate very unfairly upon the large centres, whilst it could not possibly cover the country districts. He could not vote for ics second reading. Mr HANAN thought valuable suggestions had been made during the debate whiclfc, would prove useful to the Select Committee to which the Premier intended to refer the Bill. Mr KIRKBRIDE suggested that the Bill should be dropped this session, to enable the local bodies to be consulted during the recess. Mr ALISON agreed with the view expressed by the last speaker. The Bill meant there would b& 102 boards with 714 members and 102 secretaries. He did not think the measure would conduce to fewer fires. Mr VILE considered that the local bodies were now doing the work efficiently, and hoped the Bill would nob be proceeded with. * Mr WITTY had no sympathy whatever with the measure. Mr BENNET thought a simpler Bill should be brought in to give more encouragement to fire brigades. The PREMIER, in reply, said, in his opinion, under this Bill there would be no necessity for more than nine or tea boards in the colony. There was no intention of creating all the scattered idis* tricts fire districts. To cities like Wellington the Bill would be an advantage. No district would be brought in unless \ra the application of the local body. Ia regard to the objection taken to existing plant being handed over, he had particularly avoided bringing m real estate. Probably there ought to be some limit to the borrowing powers of the boards, and he was quite prepared to meet that point, though in debate it was not suggested how the borrowing should be limited or on what basis. As to the argument used that the Bill would result in increased premiums, he did not think there was anything in it, in view of the check placed upon the companies by the creation of the State Fire Insurance Department and the

more complete equipment of fire brigades, resulting in less risks from fire. It was the heroic services rendered by firemen that demanded a Bill of this nature. Firemen had a legal status in other colonies, and we should give them a similar status in New Zealand. After listening to the debate, he did not think there was any objection that could not be reasonably met. He was prepared to submit the measure to a Select Committee which should he able to evolve a Bill that would give satisfaction to the colony. The second reading of the Bill was carried by 30 votes to 11, and it was then referred to a Select Committee. The House rose at 1.30 a.m. TUESDAY, OCTOBER 6. The House met at 2.30. TESTATORS’ FAMILY MAINTENANCE. The Testators’ Family Maintenance Amendment Bill was taken in committee and reported without amendment. POLICE OFFENCES. The Police Offences Amendment Bill was considered in committee. Mr J. ALLEN objected to billiardrooms in licensed lionises being exempt from the provisions of the Bill. _ The MINISTER of JUSTICE exthat the Licensing Act dealt with billiard-rooms in licensed premises. Somo exception was taken to subsection 2 of clause 3, which provides that any person found in a billiard-room after hours and fails to give his name on demand, the constable may, without warrant, arrest him and take him, as soon a,s practicable, before a Justice of the Peace. Members - wanted co know what powers the Justice would have. Eventually, on the motion of the Premier, it was decided that the clause should be altered to enable the Jtis- ■ tice to detain in custody until the sitting of the Court any person refusing to give his name and address and to release on bail any person giving his . name. Clause 6, relating to riding or driving animals, or riding a bicycle or vehicle, or wheeling any carriage, etc., on a footpath, unless the offender could satisfy the Court t-hat thereby no danger or obstruction had been caused, was struck out on the motion of: the Hen Mr McGowan. The object of the clause was to amend the present Act by removing the onus of proof of danger or obstruction from the prosecution and making the defence disprove such danger or obstruction. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. Tho House resumed at 7.30. The debate, in committee, on the Police Offences Act Amendment Bill was continued. Clause 7, on the motion of the Minister, was altered to read, “Every person is liable to a fine ndt exceeding five pounds who removes any stone, sand, on boulders from any foreshore, to the danger of any existing road or land.” Foreshore, for the purposes of the Bill, means that portion of the

beach lying between the high and low water marks at neap tide. Sir WILLIAM RTJSSELL, by proxy, moved n.s an amendment that the principal Act be amended to permit the spraying; of noxious weeds with poisonous liquids for the last eight months in any year. This was carried by 38 to XZ. Sir WILLIAM STEWART* moved a new clause providing a penalty not exceeding £2O for the disfiguring of natural objects by painting, carving, or otherwise affixing or displaying any letters, works, figures, or devices. The MINISTER did not think the present Bill was the place for the clause, although he was in sympathy with it/ Sir JOSEPH WARD explained that he intended to make provision to deal with the trouble in the Municipal Corporations Amendment Bill. The motion, however, was carried on the voices, and the Bill was reported as amended. v GENERAL ASSEMBLY LIBRARY. The committee next considered the General Assembly Library Bill. The Bill was reported with minor amendments. MENTGIPAL CORPORATIONS. The Municipajl Corporations Act Amendment Bill was next considered in committee. Mr AITREN objected to the increased number of councillors provided in the Bill for councils in large boroughs. Ho moved to reduce them to not less than twelve and not more than eighteen. Sir JOSEPH WARD hoped the amendment would be lost—not Jess than fifteen and not more than, twentyfive councillors were not too many. Air BARBER’S experience was that the larger the council the longer it took to get through the business. An increase to twenty-five would be cumbersome —eighteen would be sufficient. The PREMIER also hoped the House would not accept the amendment. He looked forward to boroughs around the, large duties being brought into one body, and preparation, for that should be made while the Act was being handed. Mr AITKEN said ‘Wellington was finding no difficulty with it® business

under the present number of councillors (fifteen). The committees were working admirably. The PREMIER: It takes the publio all its time to hold on to its reserve, all the same. Mi* ATFKEN: “No, sir, it does not.” The Council was practically unanimously against the proposal when it came from tho Reserves Committee. Mr TANNER -.pointed out that those councils that did not want twenty-five members were not forced to have them. Mr DAVEY suggested that members of councils should be elected on a population basis—the minimum to be nine and the maximum twenty. Mr BAUME considered. that hoards of aldermen should he formed in the big cities, composed, say, of ex-mayors. This would retain the services of many good men for the cities’ benefit that would otherwise be lost. Mr WILFORD supported him, and hoped the ajdcrmen would be allowed

to use tho uniform of the office. Mr AITKEN’S amendment to reduce tho minimum number of councillors from fifteen to twelve was carried by 31 to 30. His amendment to reduce tho maximum to eighteen was carried by 32 to 28, but he obtained leave to insert tlio word “twenty-one” instead of eighteen. Mr FIELD moved as a new qlause that the section of the Municipal Corporations Amendment Act, 1902, dealing with the open spaces around dwell-ing-houses ’be amended so that where tho side boundaries of any site are not of the same length, the mean length of such side boundaries shall he taken as the dept-li of the site for the purpose of defining the distance across such open space. This was agreed to on the voices.

A proposed new clause by Mr Ell, providing for the compulsory acquisition of gasworks by municipalities, was ruled out of order, on the ground that it was not competent to amend a local Bill by public Act.

Mr ELL moved as a new clause “The council of a borough may submit to a poll of the electors of such borough a proposal on any matter or question affecting tho interests of the_borpugh, and upon which the council may deem it desirable to ascertain the opinion of the electors; and, further, the council shall take a poll within thirty days after the presentation to' any such council of a request in writing, signed by not less than 10 per cent, of the electors of such borough, demanding that a, poll be taken upon a proposal contained in such petition.” The mover and Mr Barber, in support of this clause, instanced' tho case/ - of Miramar, 1300 acres of which, under such a clause, could have been acquired to tho great advantage of the people. Mr TAYLOR also supported the clause, pointing out that it would enable the Wellington ratepayers to settle the question of taking a tram-line through the Basin Reserve. Sir JOSEPH WARD said it was possible for councils to get an expression of opinion by the ratepayers cun any subject now, but on questions such as Miramar it wcjuld not be of the slightest use to them, because in that case legislate enactment was necessary. The clause was rejected by 4G to 14.

Mr E. G. ALLEN moved a new clause to give Municipal Councils the same powers to make by-laws for the regulation of vehicular traffic with regard to the weight of lead, the width of tire, etc., as are conferred on County Councils by tlie Counties Acc. Carried on the voices. Mr ALISON moved a new clatuse, providing that no dwelling-house shall be erected in any borough within five feet from any boundary of the allotment. He explained that lie moved this in order to obviate over-crowding, and instanced cases of this nature at Devonport. Sir JOSEPH WARD could not accept the clause, as there were places in the colony where, if such a law were put into operation, it would practically render some sections valueless. Air AITKEN pointed out that if this became law, to allow five feet would mean in this city a great hardship. In many of the districts here where dwellings were now being erected land was selling as high as from £3O to £4O a foot. Five feet allowance on either side meant at £4O a foot £4OO, which was much too heavy an imposition upon any private individual. The clause was rejected on the voices. Air LANG moved a new clause to provide for Mayors coming into office on the day they are elected. Rejected by 28 to 23.

Sir JOSEPH WARD moved a new clause, that the Mayor shall come into office on the first Wednesday in May following his election, and the appointment of committees of the Council shall not be made until the new Mayor has taken office. Carried on the voices. Mr KIDD moved to amend section 33 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1902. in the direction of enabling boroughs to transfer any surplus from the waterworks account to the general account. At present the Act only allows the transfer of a surplus from the gasworks or electric lighting account. — Carried on the voices. Mr BAUME' moved a new clause that the minutes of the proceedings of the Council shall be open for inspection without fee during office hours.—Carried on the voices®

The Bill was reported with -tne-al* ments. The House rose at 1.40 a.ra. WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7. The House met at 2.30. NEW BILL. The Fisheries Encouragement Act Amendment Bill was introduced by Governor’s message and read, a first time. THIRD READINGS. The fallowing Bills were read a third time:—-Testators’ Family Maintenance Act Amendment Bill, Police Offences Act Amendment Bill, General Assembly Library Bill, Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill. Tho House adjourned at 5.30. The House resumed at 7.30. INTESTATES’ ESTATES. Tho Legislative Council having disagreed with the amendments made in tho Lower House in, the In testates’ Estates Bill. Sir JOSEPH WARD mo-ved the appointment of managers to a conference with managers from the Legislative Council. Mr BAUME moved as an amendment that the Lower House did no* insist upon the amendments in question. The Bill as originaflly brought down provided for interest at the rate of 4 per cent., to be charged by a widow on her intestate husband’s estate where it exceeds £SOO. The House reduced the rate to 3i per cent. The amendment was lost on the voices. SEA FISHERIES. The Sea Fisheries Act Amendment Bill was considered in committee. The clause relating to the licensing of fishing boats was altered to require only those boats engaged in taking fish for sale to be licensed. Clause 5 was amended to read, “It shall bo unlawful for any person to open and bottle oysters for sale on any oyster bed.” On the motion of the Hon Hall-Jones two new clauses were inserted providing that nothing in the Bill should affect Maori fishing rights, and that owners of licensed sea fishing boats and. fishcurers sha!,l make returns to the Marine Department of all fish caught or cured. fA .penalty of ten pounds is liable to tollow failure to furnish the returns. On the motion of Mr Houston a new clause was added to provide that the open season for rock oysters shall be from May 31st to October 31st. Tno Bill was reported as amended. WATER POWER. The Water Power Bill was taken next in committee. The Hon HALL-JONES stated, /n reply to Mr Keke, that Maoris would be compensated for the usurption of any of their water rights. On tho motion of the Minister, the clause giving power to the Governor to construct dams and reservoirs, and divert the water of any river or stream, and giving ingress and egress over the lands adjacent to such river or stream was struck our. Cl arose 4 was amended as follows: — “Nothing in the Bill shall affect the right to the use of water, for the irrigation of agriculture or pastoral lands, for tlie supply of water for stock.” A new clause was adcled, on the motion of the Minister, giving power to grant to- any person or company the right to use water from any fall, river, or stream for the purpose of generating electricity for lighting for certain purposes.

Another new clause was added, giving power to the Governor-in-Council to limit the operations of the Bill to certain streams. COASTWISE TRADE.

The Coastwise Trade Bill was considered in committee. The PREMIER moved to make the elapse dealing with coastwise trade by ships of certain foreign ebuntries, operative only so far as treaty obligations entered into by the King will permit. He had found this necessary owing to there being a treaty with Greece. Air DUTHIE moved to make the prohibitions and restrictions of the clause apply to passengers as well as goods. The PREAIIER thought that would be going too far, but if it was the law to place restrictions on passengers in other countries he was prepared to accept the amendment, on condition that if it w*as found that the law was not so in other countries it should be strpek out. Mr BUCHANAN moved that the powers of the Governor-in-Council he made mandatory and not permissive. This was carried on the voices. Air FOWLDS moved' to delete the words in the clause imposing restrictions on vessels carrying goods from any port in New Zealand to any port in any other part , o-f the British possessions if they countervail the disadvantages to which British ships are subject. The PREAIIER objected to Air Fowlds’s amendment, as it -was only complicating matters. Air ELL wanted to know how labour on the coast was to he protected? It was absolutely a waste of time to discuss the measure. Mr AIASSEY regretted that the San Francisco service seemed to be mixed

,up f.i the Bill, and he blamed the Premier for it. . Mr BAUME denied that the San Francisco mail service had anything to do with his objections to the Bill. Mr Fowlds’s amendment was lost by. 38 to 23. , The PREMIER moved to amend the operative clajuse, so that restrictions and prohibitions would he imposed upon ships carrying goods from any port in New Zealand to any other part of the British possessions where similar provisions prevail. The Premier’s last amendment was carried on the voices, anti the Bill wa* reported as amended. MILITARY PENSIONS. The Military Pensions Act Amendment Bill was passed through committee without alteration. Progress was reported, and the Hous® rose at 1.25 a.m. THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8. Tlie House met at 2.30. THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third! time: —Sea Fisheries Act Amendment} Bill and Water Power Bill. COASTWISE TRADE. The Coastwise Trade Bill came on for its third reading. Mr MASSEY thought there was no necessity to take the Bill seriously. It would never receive the Royal assent. The Premier always wanted an advertisement from the Imperial point of view. Mr DUTHIE said the Bill was a presumptuous piece of legislation by wo would make ourselves a laughingstock. In regard to the proposed confiscation of vessels contravening th>9 Act. one could scarcely have believed that the Premier, with his knowledge of public affairs, would have introduced suck an extraordinary proposal. He did not think there was any hope of ' the measure being approved by the -King. Mr MILLAR claimed that the Bill ■was the commencement of a movement which, it was hoped, would be carried throughout the British world, and was

necessary to save the Empire’s preeminence on the sea. Air BAUME said Sir Joseph Ward had promised that the Bill would apply only to the New Zealand coast. H© did not think the colony had power to make laws for the Empire, and that was really what was being done. Mr WILFORD thought a foreign ship should he amenable to the' laws of tho country just the same as a foreigner landing on the shores. Mr HFRRIDIS would have supported the Bill if it had applied only to the New Zealand eoasw It was farcical 1 passing a measure that the Imperial authorities would not accept. What should have been done was to have made representations to the Imperial Parliament that legislation should be passed dealing with the coast trade of all the colonies. He thought the Bill would have been readily passed if it had been a protection only of our own coast from the cheap foreigner. Mr J. ALLEN supported the Bill, and said it was one step towards a general adoption of measures that would check disadvantageous naviga<tion laws of foreign nations. If the colonies and the Mother Country, adopted such a measure the American and German restrictions would have to he repealed, and that was an end to be striven for. The coast-lines of all the world should be open to free competition by all the nations. Mr MANDER considered we had & perfect right to preserve our coast-wise trade. Mr VILE opposed the measure. It > would bring the colony into conflict with big nations. Mr J. C. THOMSON expressed the opinion that the Bill was a step in tlie right direction. Foreign competition was becoming disastrous to Britain, and retaliation, although regret-* table, was necessary. The PREMIER, in reply, was satisfied with the way the Bill had so far passed through the Legislature. We were quite within our constitutional rights in passing such a measure, and he was surprised that Mr Duthie should have referred to it as “a piece' of impertinence.” The Imperial Conference was practically unanimous in favour of such a Bill as was before the House. In reply to Mr Baume, he denied there had been any. deviation ' by Sir Joseph Ward from the original intentions of tlie Bill. The Bill bad emanated from New Zealand, arid should be gone on with. This colony, at any rate, had done its duty, and must lead the Mother Country to do hers. Meeting the charges of self-ad-vertisement, he claimed that the colony had not suffered owing to its socialistic legislation. What had'been done was advertising of a :ckaracter that had lifted New Zealand to the highest pinnacle of fame, and there was no part of the British possessions thought of so highly as New Zealand. If we made one more step in this direction by the passing of a measure of this nature. then a worthy object had been served, and there should be no hesita-

tion on the part of honourable members in supporting it. The third reading was carried by 41 votes to 23.

Following is the division-list: — 'Ayes—Messrs E.~ G. Allen, J. Allen, 'Arnold, Barber, Bonnet, Buddo Garroll, Colvin, Davey, Duncan, Field, Flat-man, W. Fraser, A. L. D. Fraser, Graham, Hall, Hall-Jones, Hanan, Hoke, Houston, Lawry, McGowan, It, McKenzie, McLachlan, Millar, Mills, O’Meara, Parata, lteid, Remington, Rutherford, Seddon, Smith,** Steward, Symes, Tanner, J. O. rhomson, Ward, Wilford, Witty, Wood. Noes Messrs A 1 ison, Bedford, Bollard. Buchanan, Duthie, Ell, Fowlds," Harding, Herdman, Herries, Hogg, ,Kidd, Kirkbride, Hang, Lethbridge, Lewis, Mander, Massey, T. Mackenzie, Taylor, J. W. Thomson, Tile. Pairs —For*, the Bill: Messrs Major, Sidcy. Willis. Against the Bill —Sir W. Russell, Messrs Lewis and Ait-ken. On the motion for the adoption of the title, “ Coastwise Trade,” Mr Fowlds moved that the title be “ Coastwise and Other Portions of the British Empire Trade.” This was lost by 44 votes to 18. The House resumed at 7.30. LOCAL BODIES' LOANS.

Tho second reading of the Bocal Bodies’ Loans Act Amendment Bill was taken. Tho PREMIER e-aid the Bill dealt with technicalities almost entirely, and had been found necessary in the interests of the local bodies and the latepavers generally. Tlie rate of interest in the Bill was fixed at 4 per cent, for 32 years, but he intended to make an amendment to loan money at 3|r per cent, for forty-one years. Mr MASSEY expressed the opinion that there was apparently a,n attempt to interfere with the Government Loans to Local Bodies Act, and that the Bill was a retrogressive step. Tho present system of loans and rate of interest was quite satisfactory to local bodies. - , Sir JOSEPH WARD said the local bodies could have the option of borrowing the money at the low or high rate of interest. The present system must be discontinued. Last year alone over £257.000 was loaned to local bodies, and so far this year the amount loaned exceeded that. It was impossible for the Government to borrow money at 3 per cent., and an adjustment must be made to meet the requirements of the time©. The State had a right to ask a fair and reasonable rate of interest for the moneys loaned to local bodies. Air J. ALLEN thought the present law should bo left a® it was, or that an alteration should be made to continuo only so long as the present high rate of money continued. The cheapest possible interest should be charged. and local bodies’ work would be more efficiently done. The Hon Mr McGOWAN considered tho Government should be commended for the proposed alterations. Local bodies’ loam should result in no loss to the country, but again and again there had been loss to the colony by tho carrying out of local bodies’ schemes with money borrowed from the Government. Mr T. MACKENZIE urged tho set-ting-up of a Commission of competent and independent men to arrive at some proper system of allocation of public moneys, and ©b remove the unfair political distribution that was going on at present. Mr W. FRASER, was satisfied that any money borrowed by local bodies had been paid for at the rate the Government had paid for it, and, in addition, had had to increase their interest payments to provide for a sinking fund Mr REMINGTON had no blame for the Government in introducing tho Bill when money was at such a high rate of interest. Mr ELL thought it cool to ask the Government to keep to the old system—to let money out at a rate of interest that under the present tightened market would result in a loss to the colony. The great hulk oi the people would support the Bill. Mr R. McKENZIE believed the Bill to bo nece>3sary —money was going up all over t-lie world, and the general taxpayer should certainly not be asked to bear any burden for tho benefit of tho local bod'es. Mr HERRIES complained that it was not the country districts that were getting the public money. He asked tho Government to reconsider its proposal to increase tho rate of interest. Mr BUCHANAN deprecated tho paltry saving of the extra £ per cent, on the amount of money let out to the local bodies. Ho hoped that the system of Government grants would be done away with, the money marked as loans to local bodies. Mr WILFORD said the Bill, if passed a.s printed, would interfere with local authorities that had gone so far as to take and carry -a poll for a special 3oan. The different rate of interest Would nullify such vote, and injustice youkl follow. Mr HOGG would rather not- see the Bill passed this session, although he

supported it. He was satisfied the country settlers had no wish to see the Government lending money at a loss. Tho PREMIER, after further discussion, said the original intention of the loan legislation had not been followed. The poorer local bodies had been unable to take advantage of the legislation. Tho . question of letting money at 3.V per cent, had not been overlooked, but lie was not very favourably impressed with tho idea. It would take fifty-five years to pay such loans back at that rate. They should also consider the" advisability of lending money to local bodies that had money lying at interest at tho banks or to local bodies that had not rated up to their fullest extent. As a matter of fact, ho intended to he guided by that in futuro allocations. There was no doubt tho new districts had been hampered, and he considered tho wealthy oities should borrow money for their luxuries tho same as the Government did, and not increase the indebtedness of tho colony by heavy loans through tho Government. Tho Bil,l was read a second time on the voices. OOOIv AND OTHER ISLANDS. Tho Cook and other Islands Government Act Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. Mr WILFORD regretted that there was no clause in the Bill to prevent intoxicating liquors being taken into the islands and traded to the natives. Air ELL was equally sorry. Steps should bo taken immediately to put a stop to the practice that existed at present of importing liquor. Only one clause of the Bill was passed beforo progress was reported. Tho House rose at 12.30 a.m. FRIDAY. OCTOBER 9. Tho House met at 2.30. THE ESTIMATES. Further consideration of the Estimates was taken in committee. Lands and Survey—£lo9,4lo. Mr MASSEY com plained that members were hampered in consideration of tho Estimates by the fact that the land report was not yet down. The PR rj-.vj.JL ER explained that the great amount of work in the department had preventea the report being compiled. Mr Vv ITHEFORD hoped that northern Crown land and native land would bo dealt with on a better system than in tho past and more facilities would be given for young New Zealanders taking un holdings. The MINISTER for LANDS, in reply to Air Witheford, stated that every facility had been given for the taking up of land. He had had extra survey parties sent out, and the cost entailed amounted to £33,834. \ Mr HERIRI.ES complained that large quantities of the land open for settlement had not been surveyed, and there were no roads. Mr HOUSTON moved the item “Auckland district salaries, - £B4GO” bo reduoed by £l, as an instruction to the Government that reform is necessary in tho Auckland Land Board. He had no hesitation in saying that the Board’s administration was hampering settlemoat-. Air HARDING quoted instances of tho manner in which settlers were harassed by the Auckland Board. He drew the attention of the Alin is ter to tlio fact that Crown lands, more particularly bush lands, were being sold without any reserves being made. All* FOAv LDS reckoned tlio Board should bo cleaned right out. Absurdities were being perpetrated by it everyday. All* FLL supported the charges against the Board. Tho AITNISTER for LAND 3 replied that ho had given instructions that reserves should ba made, and he would see that the directions were carried out. Mr AIASSEY thought it was not right t-o encourage people to come from England if the charges made against the Board wero correct. It was not the personnel of the Board that was at fault, and the trouble would not be overcome until Crown tenants were directly represented on Land Boards of the colony. All* KIRKBRIDE also believed Crown tenants should be given direct representation . Tho PREMIER thought that some method of reform shots,ld have been pointed out by the mover of the motion. His opinion or the Auckland Commissioner was that lie was a conscientious and able man. There had been no more complaints from Auckland than from any other district, but there had been a ooniiict. for years between Air Houston and the Board. Air T. A!AOKENZIE’S opinion was that a weak case had been made against tho' Board. At the same time it was necessary that all members of Land Boards should be elected by tho people. Air HOUSTON’S amendment was lost by 34 to 15. All* SYIvIES then moved that the same item be reduced by £1 as an indication that Crown settlers should be represented on Land Boai'ds. ■Air HERRIES moved as a prior amendment that the item “Temporary surveyors and parties; £41,004” be reduced by £l. He wanted more information concerning surveyed lands. He drew- attention to tho large areas of

unsurveyed lands, and asked the Alin-ist-er how he expected land settlement to go on. The AIINISTER for LANDS said there was any amount of surveyed land for the requirements of intending settlers in every district in tho colony. Air BUCHANAN regretted that the methods of cutting up lands and roading them had not been in the interests of settlement.

Air HOGG wanted information regarding the sales of unsurveyed land, Ho thought lands should he roaded beforo being thrown open ; at least tracks should ho laid down. Air HERRIES thought tho survey of land had outstripped the demand, and he submitted that survey expenditure might with fairness be curtailed, and luoro attention paid to the reading of blocks of land already surveyed. Tho House adjourned at 5.30. Tho House resumed at 7.30. THE ESTIMATES.

The discussion in committeo on the Department of Lands and Survey nas continued. Air Herries’ amendment was lost on tho voices. Air LANG wanted to know why only £4OO had been spent out of the £2OOO voted last year for the eradication of noxious weeds on Crown lands. Air KIRKBRIDE urged that the whole £2OOO should he expended. The lands wero in a terrible state.

Sir WILLI AA! RUSSELL told tho Minister that hundreds of acres of native lands on the East Coast wero being quite overrun with noxious weeds. The MINISTER stated that he was doing his utmost to deal with the trouble and with the vote provided he hoped to be able to.cope with it. There would have to be something done by holders where the weeds existed, or trouble would follow. As far as native lands wero concerned, there was a lot of difficulty. Mr HERDAIAN, speaking to Air Symea’s amendment on the subject of electivo Land Boards, thought the Boards were not carrying out. tho administration satisfactorily. Grave mistakes had been made, and he instanced in particular the grazing run leases situated at a high altitude in Central Otago. Air AIASSEY maintained that the relation of Crown tenants to the Land Boards of the colony was far from .satisfactory. There were over 20,000 Crown tenants, who under present conditions wero at tho mercy of men who did not understand the requirements of the tenant©. They should have proper representation. All* HARDING averred that there was not a man in his district who was not in favour of electivo Land Boards. The PREMIER said the fault was nob so much with the Land Beards as with the defective laws they had to administer, and they should, therefore, not bo blamed for their desire to properly interpret those laws. This proposal was out of place in the present debate, and should bo dealt with when the Land Bill was before the House. There was much to be said against elective Boards, and the election of irresponsible men who might oome into conflict with the Alinister and Parliament itself in their ideas cf land administration. The MINISTER for LANDS opposed tho idea of elective Boards. Sir WILLIAM STEWARD objected to the whole of the administration being placed in the hands of the tenants. The Government, also, should be given proper representation. bodies and Crown tern ants should return their representatives on the Board. Air HOGG characterised the member for Waitaki as an extreme Tory in advocating such a proposal, which was class legislation of tho worse kind. Such a Board would administer the laws in the interests of those who had elected them, not in the interests of the cqlony as a whole. All the lands would bo converted immediately into freeholds. Mr ELL pointed out that the land belonged to New Zealand, not to those wtio happened to lease it, and the colony would bo far safer under the present; system than it would be under the one indicated. Sir WILLIAM STEWARD pointed out that what he wanted was fair representation for Crown tenants on Boards. Under his suggestion there would be four Government nominees, one Crown tenant nominee, and two local bodies’ nominees. The PREAHER asked why local bodies should have special representation on Land Boards? He objected to the idea, and thought it was not democratic. All* SYAIES’ amendment was lost by 35 to 25. Air DUTHIE moved as an amendment that the item “Payment to the Land for Settlements Account of the capital values of reserves in Hekeao Estate, £3O” he omitted. He' considered such charges were not legitimate on tho Consolidated Funds.

The PREMIER, replying to Mr Duthie, explained that the payment of rates by Government on certain estates acquired was necessitated through unforeseen circumstances. The settlers, and particularly those at Hatuma, had gone on the land at a bad'time of the yeai*; practically before getting on the land they had been liable for the rates.

Tho law, however, had since been altered, and local bodies would now be able te recover from the original owners. If they saddled the unfortunate settlers with these charges they would give them a very bad start. Mr HOGG could not understand why tho charges should be made against the colony. He considered that they should have been made against the estates. Mr DUTHIE withdrew his amendment, not that ho considered the Govern men t’s system a right and proper one, but that was not the right moment to press his objection. He was not, however,, satisfied with tho Premier’s explanation, and moved by way of protest the elimination of the item “Payment of rates on Hatuma Estate, Waipawa County Council, £373.” Air WILFORD then moved the reduction of the item in the “Payment to lands for settlement account of the capital value of reserves, Epuni Estate, £269,” as an indication that it was unfair to make tho settlers suffer for a wrong estimate nn. D.y the department in respect to the carrying out of certain wefrks. The PREMIER said tho tenants got the advantage of tho wrong estimate. If the roads had been made through tho estate the tenants would have been charged 5 per cent, on the work. Air WILFORD withdrew his amendment. (Mr Duthie’s amendment was lost by 37 to 17. Air VILE moved to reduce the next sub-item by £l, on a similar contention to Air Duthie’s. Lost on the voices. All* HALT! moved an amendment that tho item “Providing a domain for the city of Wellington, £500,” be omitted. Ho wanted to know., why public money should be exponded on a wealthy city. Lost on tho voices. Tlio vote was passed unaltered. Tho following votes also passed without alteration: —Valuation Department, £23,419; State Forests Department, £29,751; Stato Coal Mines, £OG,525 ; Land for Settlement, £7000; Public Trust Department, £24,855; Government Insurance Department, £53,3G5; Government Accident Insurance Department. £8530; Advances to Settlers Department, £106,329. Progress was reported, and the House rose at 1.15 a.m.