FEDERATION COMMISSION

New Zealand Mail, Issue 1514, 7 March 1901, Page 16

FEDERATION COMMISSION

OPENING SITTING IN WELLINGTON. The Federation Commission, for the purpose of obtaining evidence for and against federation with the Australian Commonwealth, commenced its sittings in Wellington on Monday the 25th in the Legislative Council Chambers. Lieutenant-Colonel Pitt, chairman of the Commission, presided. The Hon. W. Rolleston, being engaged in attending the University Senate at Auckland, telegraphed offering to furnish a written statement of his views of the question. It was decided to accept the offer. Mr Gresley Lukin asked to be excused from giving evidence. It was decided to ask Mr Lukin to attend this afternoon. Mr James Izett forwarded a written statement of his views. It was decided to ask Mr Izett to attend on Friday. A MERCHANT’S VIEWS. Mr Nicholas Reid was the first witness called. He had been, he said, a merchant in Wellington for the past forty-two years, and was at one time president of the Wellington Chamber of Commerce. He was opposed to federation, believing that the loss of selfgovernment would outweigh any advantage in its favour. Under federation there would, if sugar were admitted free, be a loss in Customs revenue of £160,875. If the Federal Government reduced the duty on tobacco there would probably be a loss-of £IOO,000 on tobacco. There would also be an increase in the amount of Australian spirits imported, which would involve a loss of about one-third on that article, while the revenue from Australian wines would also suffer. The revenue from sef; goods, boots and shoes, leather and other products would also be reduced. Another reason for objecting to federation was that it would cost this colony £600,000 for the management of the State. With regard to exports, the Australian colonies had a large surplus of wheat and flour, which * could be sold at 10s a ton less than in New Zealand, and the North Island would import, much cf its flour from Adelaide or Victoria, and;' that would strike a blow at the New Zealand milling industry. The manufacture! of jams and preserves would ,be destroyed. Hops, preserved milk, bacon and cheese would bencli, but the biscuit and confectionery trade would be wiped out. New Zealand had lost the trade with the South Sea Islands, which had gone to Sydney. The benefit to the timber trade was doubtful, the boot, and shoe trade would be ruined, and in a short time the export of oats from New Zealand would cease. Replying to the! chairman, witness said New Zealand foundries would not be able to compete against Australian foundries. At present there was only a small export of agricultural implements, and that would soon die out. Thought that a “White Australia’* was impossible, and that the Queensland sugar industry could not be continued without coloured labour. In reply to other questions, witness said he gathered that the Federal tariff would -be moderately protective. Victoria was anxious for federation, because it would increase her markets. Australia was becoming more self-sup-porting every year, and but for the drought New South Wales would have had a surplus of a quarter million bushels of wheat. Believed the expense of administration of the Commonwealth would he greater than anticipated. Did not think that climatic influence would enable New Zealand workmen to turn out more than Australian workmen. The price of land was less than in New Zealand, and labour and railage were also cheaper. Did not think that New Zealand would get any return in the shape of public works for her contribution of £600,000. There would be a difficulty in getting a- reciprocal treaty with the Commonwealth in regard to sugar, but he thought they would succeed in regard to wine. The loss to. the revenue had been put down at £500,000, which would have to be made up by direct taxation. The cost of cultivation and harvesting was much less in Australia than in New Zealand. Including the loss in the Customs revenue and the contribution to the Commonwealth, federation would cost New Zealand £1,100,000. The value of trade between Australia and New Zealand ■ was about level, therefore the Australian Commonwealth would notbe interested in putting on a protective tariff against New Zealand. Did not think New Zealand had anything to fear from a protective tariff. EVIDENCE BY MR S. BROWN. Samuel Brown, coal merchant, president of the Wellington Industrial Association, said the association liad not collectively considered the question of federation. Personally, he was not affected by the question. If this colony federated with the Commonwealth, the workers in New Zealand would be affected, not so much by Australian competition as that from Germany and America. From an industrial point of view, New Zealand needed Australia more than Australia needed New Zealand. New Zealand might need Australia if its workers were to maintain their present comfortable standard of

living. Thought the tendency would he to raise wages in Australia. On equal terms, he Relieved New Zealand workmen would j induce more than workmen in Australia. Thought the result of New Zealand’s federating would be to level up wages, hot to bring down New Zealand wages. A small colony like New Zealand standing alone would have no influence in making a tariff with one of the gTeat European Powers. He thought New Zealand would suffer in the expenditure of public money. It might cost Australian manufacturers a.s much to produce goods in their large factories as* it cost the New Zealand manufacturers, as the conditions of labour in New Zealand and Australia were not similar. He thought New Zealand would suffer from the competition of Germany, America and the East. Had no opinion to offer as to wnether it would be advisable for New. Zealand to federate. He was quite indifferent on the subject. MR MARTIN KENNEDY’S EVIDENCE. Martin Kennedy said he was largelyinterested in the industrial interests of the and had had commercial connections with' Australia for over twenty years. His opinion was that it would be better for this colony not to federate, and he believed that the colony would do better under present conditions. Our constitution was sufficiently elastic to develop our resources, and be thought that our federation with Great Britain was sufficient. What New Zealand wanted was population, manufactures and land settlement, and he failed to see how federation would promote these objects. Did not tliink federation would have much influence on our leading industries. The revenue from oats would be neutralised by flour, which we imported from Australia. He believed federation would have a most disastrous effect on the industries of this colony, because Australia -was more de--ye’o'c.od than this colony, which would be made the dumping ground for their -surplus. The finances of this colony would suffer. The first thing that would have to go would be our old age pension system. Sentiment entered largely into the consideration of such subjects, and the influence of New Zealand in Commonwealth affairs would be so small that the colony would suffer. It would fce fair to assume that all fat Government billets would be given to the stronger party in Australia. There would be some advantage—there would be no necessity for examining the luggage of travellers. Federation would not be of much advantage to us, as it was very little chat. Australia took from us. In reply to the chairman, witness said he did not think the Commonwealth could borrow money cn better terms than this colony ; Did not think the Commonwealth would ever be able to borrow on as good terms as British consols. Had exported malt to Sydney. In that colony they paid ten per cent, more for English barley than for colonial. In New South Wales they grew quite as good barley as they did in New Zealand. They had greater facilities for production in Australia, and the price of land was much lower than in New Zealand. Ninety-two per cent, of our produce was sent Home, and only eight per cent, to Australia. Did not think Australia would enter into reciprocal relations with this colony. Reasoning by his experience in his own country, 'the tendency would be to fill the public offices with people outside New Zealand. Did not think the question of distance would handicap this colony. As to defence, he did not think New Zealand would gain any advantage, as Australia and New Zealand had interests in common in that matter, Each would help the other in case of necessity. He would prefer reciprocity to federation. The malt industry would be injured, but not ruined. Labour conditions in New Zealand were better than in Australia, but he thought the latter would adopt those riding in New Zealand. The immediate effect of federation would be that our manufactures would be adversely affected. New Zealand was in a much more prosperous state than Australia. The progressive legislation of this colony had contributed to that prosperity. If it were true that in event of federation the land and income tax of this colony would have to be quadrupled, it would be a very serious thing. MR T. G. MACARIMx’S VIEWS. T. G. Macarthv said he had been- :' thirty-six years in this colony and ten m Australia. Until the questions of freetrade versus protection and the racial difficulty in Northern Australia had bec-n settled, this colony should not federate. Some of our superior working men might be attracted to Australia, and if the tariff was made about similar to that of New Zealand this colony would be injuriously affected. He thought this colony should remain as it is. The financial result would be disadvantageous to this colony. The close identity of the interests of Australian, States and the Federal Parliament would be prejudicial to this colony. It was absolutely i ecessary that coloured labour should be employed in the sugar industry. The distance »of this colony from Australia would nob he a disadvantage. A “white Australia” could not be earned. The Commission adjourned at one p.m till ten o’clock next morning.

The Federation Commission resumed its sittings at ten o’clock on the 26th. ■ v Messrs J. Bisslay and S. Kirkpatrick, Nelson, wrote, stating that it would be inconvenient for them, to give evidence in Wellington that day. It was resolved to take Mr Bissley’s evidence on Thursday, and that of Mr Kirkpatrick at a future date. Mr JY R. Blair asked to be excused froin giving evidence, on the ground that as the question of federation had not entered into practical politics, he had not given the subject much consideration. Mr-J. W*. Kays. Wellington, wrote offering to give evidence. It was decided to hear him. LETTER FROM MR JOHN ROSS. Mr John Ross, of Sargood, Son.' and Ewen, asked to be excused from attendance, but forwarded his views shortly on thei subject in writing. * Mr Ross wrote: —ln common with inost of our people, on the first flush the sentiment of federation seemed to me f ‘fetching,*’ but on reflection, and looking at the matter commercially, I came to the conclusion that it would place us at a disadvantage in many ways. New Zealand is a self-contained colony, with a grand climate, numerous resources, fertile soil and a vigorous and robust race; hence it is quite capable of standing alone and working out its own destiny.,. whilst any advantages to be gained 'by federation are distant and .problematical. _ In fact, I am of opinion that for a considerable time at least our manufacturing industries would suffer severely; ’ even now we find it difficult to hold our own in many lines, and with a low, uniform tariff, competition would be still keener and lead to an all-round reduction in workmen’s wages > so as to assimilate with the low rates ruling in congested cities like Sydney and melfeourhe, not to speak of the Home Country, America and Germany. I am strongly in favour of workmen getting a fair wage for a fair day’s work, but it must be obvious even to -the;

unions that a fixity for a reasonable •period and at a rate that permits of fair competition is imperative, as uncertainty as to price of labour, constant chopping and changing and asking for more—like 'Oliver —hinders progress, locks up capital, opens thd door to outside competition and spells ruin to existing. industries and to the workmen themselves. Progress should be on the principle of ithe three F.’s—fair wage, fixity of tenoire, freedom of contract. The latter would give merit a show against the dead ilevelism which unions impose on their ..members. Nor do I see that our agricultural productions would advantage much \by federation, as it is only when hard pressed through droughts, eke., that Australia buys of New Zealand. Hence .under, similar circumstances they would not shut, their doors against buying in the nearest and cheapest market in the future, simply because; New. Zealand declined to enter the Commonwealth. A point worthy of consideration is that .New Zealand . holds a unique .position ..among the colonies—apart from her' climate, resourceful\and racial advantages -—-in that her advanced legislation, grappling with and giving effect to solutions of political and social problems for the ...betterment of humanity, has brought her prominently and favourable before

the world as eminently progressive. There is no reason why she should sacrifice this proud position. Only now is ’. New Zealand beginning to reap the frill ''"fruits and advantages of years' of' hard ~;tbil and much expenditure by the early settlers,, and' wise legislation by . many “able! statesmen at the helm, since its imftiation as a colony. We should riot, therefore, lightly barter our independence, right of self-go vernment, and marge and lose our identity in that of the Commonwealth of .Australia. I further hold ' that in the interests of Australia and

' ; New, Zealand they should not federate, "'as a healthy; friendly rivalry acts as a and will aid the progress of both politically, commercially and socially; "and should outside trouble arise, they -Will loyally stand by each other. Recisprocity should meet all that is required, t Finally, 'the importance of this question . of federation will be a* sufficient excuse, for 1 my venturing- to offer a’suggestion to the d Royal Commission; namelv, : that to my -mind it' would greatly facilitate their Jwork of inquiry if the people w ere edu-

cated in- advance-of the Commissioners’

sittings, by publishing in the newspapers 4 the'.nature and scope.! of their inquiries, and giving a short 1 synopsis of the salient Xpoints, 'of. the Federal .Constitution the basis upon which Ne'w 'Zealand would be arid stand; its' power and representation ipythe' Federal-Parliairieht, .' and the p 6 weir the . Federar Parliairierit ; holds of taxing .the various , States to defipiehcips in the federal rey'.ehue,- and for levying money < toy carry ~!ori federal,works,; etc.,.in all State's, y. To federate wi th our 1 present limited c, knowledge, of. commitment it too . risky, . bearing in. mind that;, once wedded, djsyorce would; ‘be difficult, r fßettfer wait developments by; the Australian, Federal Parliament, even if it costs us niore’ito .. join later on. . ? 5 - A PUBLIC OFFICER EXAMINED. Mr James Mackay, chief clerk iri the -Labour Department, producedboiripara--Ltiveyretfcariis '--of• the wages' paid in N'bw , Zealand and the r colonies'- of Australia in the leading trades and' industries • ~ The .. .average wages; were: much? higher iri ’New ’ Zealand, and the, hours of labour dess ■ the! course of " tune he ; believed.Ahah ; 'conditions of laThd'ujyirif 'Australia -wopld - com e more into iT 'lihe with those obtaining in New Zea- * land. . To Mr Leys: The factories m. Austra-

lia were much larger than those in New Zealand. The proposed labour legislation in New South Wales did not go so far as that existing in New ZealandThe Victorian wages did not range much lower than those in New Zealand. The Wages Board there seemed to have! given satisfaction, as wages had been raised since it was initiated. In the event* of federation, he believed wages in New Zealand would he lowered. By Mr Beauchamp: There lias been a decided increase lately in the number of factories and employees in this colony. By Mr Millar: If the Commonwealthpassed an Arbitration 'Act to apply to the whole of the States, it might prove detrimental to New Zealand. The condition of trade largely influenced the decisions of the Arbitration Court. AN EDITOR’S VIEWS. -; , Mr J. L. Kelly said he was engaged m the literary profession, and was. editor of the “New Zealand Times.” He had studied the question of federation for the past ten or twelve years, and his conclusions were adverse to this colony entering the Commonwealth. As far as finance and trade were concerned, there would be possible advantages in federation. The “pooling” of the loans would give, us cheaper money, while Customs' union would give freedom of interchange of goods between the States, and as.far -as these .consideration's were concerned, the colony might gain. The disadvantages, however, would, he believed, outweigh the- advantages. There were thirty-nine subjects of legislation remitted to the Commonwealth Parliament, and we would suffer under most of them. On general grounds he objected to federation. It would dwarf our national life and retard the progress of the colony. We would he swamped by Australia. Imperial unity was sufficient for our needs. By Mr Beauchamp : He believed the Commonwealth would be able to borrow more advantageously than individual States. He could not see what advantage the trans-continental railway would be to New Zealand. He favoured a direct system of taxation as against an indirect system. The country would benefit more by developing its resources than by trade.

By Mr Luke : In case of the necessity arising for defence of the colony, he believed the Empire would act unitedly. Our best course was to' train our young people for the defence or the colony. His view was' that by federating, New 1 Zealand would lose its identity, and would be sunk to the level of a. mere province. New Zealand, he thought, was large enough to stand alone, and form a portion of the larger federation of the British Empire. The colony possessed everything to support a large population. He believed that our industrial population could individually turn out more work than the workmen in Australia. This country, he thought, would be a. mere cypher in the Commonwealth. He did not think that the Gammon wealth would agree to a reciprocal tariff if New Zealand did not federate, but- he thought there would ultimately be an Imperial Customs union, which would be of more benefit to New Zealand. That union would be more likely to be attained .if New Zealand stood out of the Commonwealth.

By the chairman: He attributed the progress that Great Britain had made -to the fact that she stood aloof from any European Power. Her insularity had been her strength. He did not attach much importance to the question of the distance of New Zealand from Australia. New Zealand would develop into an important maritime country, and the shipping laws of the Commonwealth might detract from such a possibility. Our law’s as to aliens might also be over-ridden, and the coloured labour question would cause trouble. EVIDENCE BY A BARRISTER. Mr Martin Chapman, an English barrister by profession, ! residing in Wellington, said he had always been of opinion that federation would be good for the colony. History showed "that it was an advantage to- belong to a large State. Australia was necessary to Nbw Zealand, and the latter would not have attained its present importance.;.blit for Australia. If we remained outside, we would, have to face a hostile tariff. There would be some' loss of legislative .independence, but that would hot prove detrimental. He. did not think- that New Zealand would be swamped in the Commonwealth. He did not think the diversity of laws would be a difficulty. With regard to a Court of Appeal, he thought there should be ah appeal to ' the Privy Council. There were objections to the ‘ Commonwealth constitution, but not of sufficient importance to prevent federation. As to the question of distance, New Zealand was just as close to Australia as Ireland was to England one- hundred years ago. . t By Mr Roberts : He was distinctly of opinion federation should be set about •as early as possible. J .yv • - - By Mr Beauchamp He believed that the .Commonwealth} would impose protective duties against New Zealand. He did not think two of the most prominent. States would combine for the purpose of dominating the other States. It was a blot on the Commonwealth constitution that Maoris would .not lie allowed to vote. He was, inclined to take the Bill with all its blots.

By Mr Luke: He thought the Federal

Parliament might be trusted not to undertake works that would be of benefit only to. one State. . Federation would be an advantage in the enforcing of Court judgments. Regarding exclusive Jaws, such as marriage and divorce, he thought the facilities for divorce in New Zealand were greater than in most other countries. Uniformity as to hereditary laws, and in regard to solicitors, barristers, doctors and others would be very desirable. He believed that under the Commonwealth Act There was no right of anneal, but onlv the right to app:y .lor -leave to appeal; This country would have to bear its share of the cost of such works as the trans-continental railway, irrigation, etc. He did not think the people of this colony would be prejudicially affected in regard to appointments in the Civil Service. -By Major Steward: One very strong guarantee that the ’interests of the smaller States would not he sacrificed by the combination of New South Wales and Victoria was, he thought, the mutual jealousies of these colonies, which would prevent them combining. TESTIMONY BY A MERCHANT. Mr David Nathan, merchant, of Wellington, said his firm did business with Australia, but it had no branch there*. He believed that the advantages of fede-ration-were purely speculative, and that the ccst". to the colony -would run into several hundreds of thousands- of pounds. The market, • for colonial : produce was England, so that it did not -matter much whether Australia had' a protective tariff. In times of drought Australia would have to take our produce. New Zealand did very little trade with her, and Australia could grow most, of her own prodded. New Zealand, he thought, could hold

her own in the manufacturing line. Most of the sugar consumed in New Zealand came from Australia, and the loss of revenue from that source would be very considerable. . „

By Mr Beauchamp: He thought it would be better to. form an Imperial zollverein and for New Zealand to join that, instead of federating with Australia. He thought that a reciprocity treaty would be entered into. OPINIONS OF PATENT AGENTS.

Mr E. S. Baldwin, patent agent, said the question had been discussed at the •conference of patent agents at Melbourne, when the conclusion arrived at was that federation would be disadvantageous to New Zealand. From an An-glo-Saxon or Imperial point of view, federation, he thought, was advisable. THE QUESTION NOT URGENT.

Mr Malcolm Macpherson, general manager of the New Zealand Loan and Mercantile Agency Company, said be did not think the question of federation was urgent, or that . the colony would reap any special advantages thereby. It would cause larger taxation, owing to the additional expenditure which fede-ra-tifin would entail. He did not think, however, that it would be desirable that certain New Zealand affairs should be managed from Australia. -Although New Zealand and Australia had many interests in common, there weire ethers that would lead to conflict. * The trade with Australia was not such an important one as many people thought, and he believed, that if Australia wanted our produce she would get itj duty or no duty. Australia, howevdr, was now less in need of our produce than it had been in the past. This colony had to look tc Europe as its market. . As to manufactures, he thought those of this colony should be able to ' stand upon their own bottom and compete with Australia. He believed in the federation of the Empire, biit thought New Zealand npght as well federate with British Columbia as with Australia.

By the Chairman : The extra taxation involved in federation could be made up by taxing articles that cornu not be produced in the colony. He did not think that the agricultural interest would be detrimentally affected by federation. . Letters were read at this stage from Mr W. H. Mill ward, general manager of the ’Gear Company, and Mr- Gresle3 T Lukin, editor of the “Evening Post,” requesting to be excused from giving evidence.—The Commission agreed to grant both requests. A PAPER BY A JOURNALIST. ~ Mr James Tzeti, journalist, submitted a paper on the,, question of federation, which the clerk read. The . paper argued that New 1 Zealand' could riot be free from the influence of the. larger community adjacent to it-.., .New Zealand, being rich m harbours, and standing ip the highway ,bet weepy America and' Australia, would produce in this colony a sea-going and great maritime race. The writer went on to show that from the experience of the past there were good .reasons to believe that important changes would from time to

time be introduced into the Commonwealth constitution. There- could be no finality in human laws. He contended that the love of country manifested by the old colonists would not be as easily merged in a federal spirit as" would be the case in Australia. He was ail ardent believer in Imperial federa-, tion. The question; of defence wasMost practical,while other matters weremostly sentimental. A COACHBUILDER’S IDEAS. ; . Mr Henry Hurrell, coach builder, op-, posed, federation on the grounds that, the conditions of labour were more fa-.y vourable in New Zealand- than in Australia, the wages in this colony being higher and the hours of labour 1 shorter.. He believed that freetracle w-ould be seriously adverse to New Zealand’s, trade. He said there were no OLina-r men engaged in the furniture factories in "Sydney. He did not believe that" wages in New Zealand were too high,but the effect of federation would be to reduce wages. He believed that federation would be generally injurious to the prosperity of the colony. A SUPPORTER. OF FEDERATION. Mr Peter Robertson Russell, saddler, favoured federation-, • because the largepopulation of Australia would afford extended markets, while it would enable New Zealand to convert her-'loans with Australian at a lower rate of interest. By Mi* Leys : He did not think that manufacturers in New Zealand had anything to fear from Australian manufacturers, and he believed that in the course of -a, few years the balance of trade would be in favour of New Zealand. Men in New Zealand were able to turn out more work than those m Australia. He was of opinion that the industries of the colony would progress under federation. - By Mr Beauchamp : He was of opinion that the tariff, that would .be imposed by the Commonwealth would be protective in its character. He believed that the safeguards provided in the Act were sufficient to prevent the interests of this colony being sacrificed. ',7 By Mr Millar: If New- Zealand cud .not federate, he thought that Australia would import grain and other produce from. America and other countries. In the event of federation, he thong,it. ,the colony would be able to convert it s loans on favourable terms and - a considerable saving. * Whne m xavour of federation, he would not agree to .this colony entering the C ob mo my e a it. i under the present constitution. MS JOHN DUTHIE’S VIEWS.Mr John Du,t hie, merchant, Wellington, said he thought- one advantage of federation would he that they would have more stable legislation. Be thought, however, that the question of distance was a barrier, and he also thought that* this colony would aevmqp . .national characteristics of its own;. «•©. thought the best attitude towards the question was for New to stand out until it was seen how federation • worked. He had not had sufficient Uipe to study the financial aspect offthewmbiect. His opinion was that the that would be imposed by the Federal Parliament would be largely for. revenue purposes. As to the amoun, ot produce taken by Australia; frond/New Zealand, there was a cdnstaevable amount of misunderstanding w tnesubject. A good deal of the exports - -t o ’ Australia were transhipped from there to other parts of the world. The market, he thought, was over-rated, i lie effect of New Zealand’s standing cmt of the Commonwealth would, in nis opinion, press hardupon' some;; 'of our industries; As to the effect üboif qur agricultural industry, he did- not . think that it would be- .greatly injured, as the market our produce' was - Londom -.;He.did not think that- i lohal y administration would be curtailed, but that on; large questions Australian influence would *. predominate. - The, Federal Parliament would not take, much /interest in New Zealand, affairs. There’ was a great desire in Australia . That. New; Zealand _ .shojild join' the Conimonwealth; 7 / , .thought there' was so;;little to exchange between Australia ' aha New Zealand that there was scarcely .aiiy;. necessity for a reciprocal treaty... .-• >••'/' 7. A ... By. Mr". Luke ; He did not 'think ; a “white. .Australia”, was .possible; aiid; the q uestiou of distance' was, a. fatal': objec- • ti-0ii,,.. .." ' » r ..-. 7/ Y1,.- tsi ~T . OPINIONS OF A WHOLESALE: "d " CHEMIST. : : ; r: " :'• ' Mr John Kays, wholesale chemist -. (Sharland and Co.) disapproved of' the • Commonwealth Act in its present form.

It was not adapted to New Zealand s wants. lie believed -New Zealand would benefit by trade with Australia under a moderate tariff. He did not think a moderate tariff would injure New Zealand industries. Goods from Australia would be superior to shoddy from America. The present exports to America would, under, .federation, be transferred to Australia. Speaking broadly, he believed New Zealand would benefit by federation with Australia. He thought the condition of the working classes in the neighbouring' colonies inferior to that of these in this colony, but. a reduction of wages in many classes of industry in New Zealand was inevitable. though it would not be hastened bv federation. By Mr Luke :. He believed that the Federal Parliament would act justly towards the small States. By Mr Beauchamp : He felt that the commercial houses in .New Zea land would -Hot suffer in competition with the larce • Australian houses. The tendenev would be to level up wages to the New Zealand standard. The .Commission adjourned at 0.30 p.m. till 10 o’clock next morning. The Federation Commission resumed its sittings at Parliament House on the 27th. A LABOUR VIEW. Thomas Lynch, wharf labourer, a representative of the Trades ana Labour Council, said the Council, at a meeting, was almost unanimous in the opinion that it would be unwise for New Zealand to federate. They looked at thel question /from this standpoint, ■Would federation raise the wages or lower the cost of living to working men? He thought that federation v/ould do neither. Then, by federation they would lose control of their representative s, which would be a bad thing. If we could make better goods and siell them cheaper, the outside world would buy from us—there was no sentiment in business. It was quite possible for men to turn out more work in eight hours than in ten, as men were in the shorter time able to devote more energy to their work. The white man had no reason to fear the competition of China and Japan, ui-less the letter tv ere furnished with proper tools}. He considered that trade combinations were good for the manufacturers, but bad for the -workmen. It wouldj he considered, he better for this colony to remain as it is y this colony had nothing to gain and everything to lose by federation. By Mr Beauchamp: Wages were lower in Australia than in New Zealand. Employment in Australia was scarce, and people flocked to the large cities. To obviate that, facilities should be given for placing people oil the land. He considered that no Conciliation and Arbitration Act would raise wages if there were two men looking for one man’s billet. As compared with New Zealand, wages in America were not so high; in the latter country wages had been reduced greatly during late years. By Mr Luke: Witness objected to trusts and combinations, as they were monopolies. In his opinion, if a white man were given proper conditions he could work where a black man could. He was satisfied! that it would be against the interests of New Zealand to federate: *. By Mr Leys: In this country we could guard against the formation of trusts. We had a better grip of our Parliamentary representatives in New Zealand, and could jump on them. He was an advocate .of freetrade, and was not afraid of Chinamen coming to the colony. A MILITARY WITNESS. - Major William Madocks, staff-officer to the Commandant of the New Zealand Forces, said he did not think New Zealand would derive any benefit to its defence by joining the federation. With the assistance of the Navy, he thought New Zealand could protect itself. The Navy was the first line of defence, and whether New Zealand joined the federation or not, it would still have the protection of the Navy. In the event of the colony's federating, its forces would be under Australian command, and would be administered from there, and our system would have , to be assimilated. to that of the Commonwealth, whether the conditions suited us or not. In case of emergency, Australia would be engaged looking after itself, so that this colony would not receive any assistance from her troops. On the other hand, it might be .that fifty years hence Australia would have a navy of its own, the benefit of which we would not participate in unless we federated. By the Chairman : He did not think the cost to New Zealand of defence would be greater under the Commonwealth than it was at present. Assuming that we hadl the protection of the Imperial fleet, he thought our land forces could be made effective for defence of the colony. By Major Steward: In the event of Britain’s being at war with another .Power, Australia and New Zealand would, he thought, be alike objects of attack. He was of opinion that New Zealand had nothing to gain in the way of defence by federating. By .Mr Leys: He could not see that the Australian transcontinental railway would be any benefit to New Zealand m the event of an attack being made upon New Zealand. As to a standing

army, he saw no reason to suppose that 1 such an army would be necessary. Australia would need its troops for its own defence, but he thought that New Zealand would get some assistance from Australia, whether we were federated or not.. By Mr Bowen: What New Zealand had to fear was a sudden raid _by an enemy. By Captain Russell: So long as England was the chief naval Power, he would not expect that a larger force than 10,000 men could attack the colony, but so long as New Zealand remained part of the Empire it would be quite as safe as if we federated . THE ENGINEERING TRADE. William Cable, engineer, Wellington, president of the Engineers' Associartion, said the association asi a body had not considered the question of federation. From a trade point of view federation, he thought, was not desirable. Wages in New South Wales were ten per cent, lower than in New Zealand. The result of federation would, in his opinion, be that wages would be lowered in New Zealand. Coal was much cheaper in Australia, and raw material could be obtained at a cheaper rate than in New Zealand. He did not see that New Zealand would gain any advantage by federating. By Captain Russell: New Zealand was a progressive country, and capable ot maintaining a large population. Ho had not considered what effect federation would have on the colony twenty years hence. By Mr Roberts: He did not think a New Zealand workman could do as much woik in eight hours as a workman m Australia, with lejss could do in ten hours. ’ By Mr Beauchamp: If New Zealand federated, there would be greater competition with Australian manufacturers. Ly Mr Luke : Witness thought a man could do more work in ten hours than in eight with machinery. J. P. Luke, engineer, said he was strongly against federation, but not from a trade point, of view. The condition, of the workers in New South "Wales ivas much better than in Victoria, -which he attributed to the protective tariff of the latter State. It was the free, strong character of a people* that made a nation successful, and he believed that the population of the colony had that character. He was opposed to coddling industries. New Zealand could not compete with Australia in iron-working. If an industry could not be carried on without protection he thought it would oe better that it should go to the wall. By Captain Russell: He believed that it was only a bogey to say that our manufacturers would be shut out of the island trade if we did not federate. He had nothing to fear from keeping out of the federation. By Mr Roberts : We don’t fear the competition -of Aus fcralia. By Mr Beauchamp : Witness was a freetrader. -Tha iron manufacturers of the colony were not a wealthy people, and had enough to do to get along with moderate comfort. If the manufacture of iron was to be undertaken, it should be done by the State. One of his strongest objections to federation was that a great deal of money would he sent out of the colony, for which we would get no equivalent. We had a superior youth in the colony, and' when a young man was turned out of a New Zealand engineering shop he could get a billet anywhere. By Mr Leys : In witness’s opinion federation would reduce wages in this colony. William Crabtree, engineer, Wellington, said he believed federation' would be a good thing for the colony, as it would give us a larger market. For all the outlying parts of Australia New Zealand could compete against Australia. He attached no importance to the sentimental aspect of the question. The population of this colony was too small to enable large industries to be developed. In the course of a few years there would be a large population in Australia, which, ande!r federation, would prove a market for the colony. By Mr Leys : Victoria was no better off in manufactories than New Zealand. He did not see how Australian manufactures oould swamp this colony. If we were not federated, he thought the tendency would be for our population to go to the larger field in Australia. By Mr Beauchamp: He did not think the tendency would be, in event of federation, for boot and clothing manufacturers to swamp the New Zealand market with these articles. Generally speaking, our industries would not suffer by federation, and the colony would reap advantages which it would not otherwise gain. By Mr Millar: He was certain that New Zealand could compete with Australia in engineering works. Federation with a large State was advantageous to a smaller one, but he would not favour federation unless we were to he put on an equal footing with other States. David Robertson, engineer, said be thought we had everything to lose and nothing to gain by federation. The result would be to injure all the industries of the colony. He was of opinion that there would be a difficulty in raising the wages in Australia to the same level as those in New Zealand. A MINISTER’S VIEWS. William Albert Evans, Congregational minister, said he had considered

the question of federation, and thought it would not be wise for New Zealand to federate, as New Zealand was separated by sea from Australia, and had a geographical character of its own. The insularity of the colony tended to develop a different intellectual and social character. Not being a contiguous part of Australia it had not tire same inducements to federate. By Mr Luke : He could not see how our federation with Australia would affect the question of bringing about an Imperial federation. By Mr Beauchamp : He did not think that we would have such progressive legislation in this colony if the colony joiqed the Commonwealth. He did not think the time was opportune for federation. By Mr Millar: He did not see howt some parts of Australia, could get along without coloured labour. A TIMBER MERCHANT’S TESTIMONY. "William Booth, timber merchant, Carterton, and a director of the Wellington Meat Export Company, said he had given some consideration to federation. He thought New Zealand should not federate except for defence purposes. New Zealand was too far from Australia to make federation a success. New Zealand was a country that could stand alone. If we federated the restrictions to tlie development of New Zealand character would be more harmful than the injury to trade. The effect of federation would he to make the feeling unfriendly between the Commonwealth and New Zealand. Federation would be m favour of the trade of this colony, but not to such an extent as to warrant federation. The effect- of federation upon the agricultural industry he had not considered. If the loans of this colony were not raised upon as advantageous terms as the Commonwealth’s loans, that would be the fault of those in charge of its affairs. He did not think the timber trade would he affected", as it was principally white pine that was exported. His impression was that federation would not he advantageous to New Zealand. He did not mean that there would be any intentional unfriendliness to New Zealland, but that would he the result. The advantage in matters of defence would be in the combination which the Commonwealth would be able to effect. He was not an expert on defence, bub thought that wit'li the navy as a first line of defence we would be able to defend the land. By Captain Russell: He did not think that federation would assist us in our land defence. He thought that Imperial federation would be the best for New Zealand, but he did not think it wise to precipitate that; it would be better to let the sentiment grow. The fact that Australia, was continental and New Zealand insular would, he thought, tend to develop a better type of character in New Zealand. The development of a race depended largely upon the environment. He hoped that Australia, would draw a line of country Avhere coloured labour should be located. Before the coloured race question was decided' by either Providence or destiny, the question would become a burning one with white settlers. He believed that if the white man determined that Northern Australia should remain unproductive rather than that it should be occupied by coloured people, the law of man, not that of nature, would prevail. By Mr Beauchamp: Did not think that England would ignore our defence in the event of our being threatened. The question of intercolonial freetrade was one! that he did not think would detrimentally affect this colony. By Mr Luke : He did not think that, standing alone, New Zealand would, by its insularity, develop a contracted view of affairs and lose the advantages that the wider fieild of the Commonwealth w T ould offer, New Zealand could evolve its own destiny by standing alone. THE AGRICULTURAL INTEREST. Robert Kilpatrick Simpson, a farmer, residing in the Rangitikei, said he had leanings in favour of federation, but he preferred waiting until he saw how it worked out on the other side. If the Commonwealth imposed a protective tariff, it would injure the agricultural interests of this colony. Arthur Edward Russell, farmer, residing at Palmerston North, said he had not given the subject of federation much consideration. He was opposed to federation. It might beneficially affect this colony’s agricultural interest during some seasons, hut whether we federated or not Australia would take our produce in times of drought. He'"was afraid that if we federated this colony would be the “back block” of the Commonwealth. He was also opposed to federation for racial reasons. Myer Caseflherg, manager of the Wairarapa Farmers' Association, said teat from his knowledge of the Australian market, New Zealand’s agricultural industry would not be benefited by federation. We could only export a few oats. As to timber, it was only white pine that was efxported, and he doubted if that was an advantage, as we -would require all that timber for our own use. There was no advantage to be gained to our trade—oni the contrary, everything to lose —by federation. As to defence, in any case we would have to protect ourselves. As far as he knew, the farmers

looked at the question from a practical point of view, as to whether or not they would benefit by federation. By Mr Beauchamp : His opinion was that even if it cost the colony more to join the Commonwealth later on, after having seen ho ay it AAorked, it AAould be better. The colony was, lie thought, sufficiently self-contained to work out its OAvn destiny. By the Chairman : Federation would, ho believed, have a prejudicial, effect on the administration of the colony. ANOTHER LABOUR VIEW. Andrew Collins, baker, one of the Trades Council’s representatives, said that from a labour point of vieAv we had nothing to gain and everything to lose by federation. We had better pay and shorter hours of labour, and had solved the boy-labour question. He objected to federate with any continent that employed black labour. If the sugar industry could not be carried on without coloured labour, the industry should be Aviped out, but he believed that the industry could be carried on by white labour. The cheap labour in Australia would cause unfair competition in this colons'. We did not want to compete with Chinese labour. The labour party was not in favour of the Commomvealth. Bill. There AA r as also a tendency to form trusts andj combinations in Australia, and A\ ; here\’er thely existed they Avere inimical to the workers. The Union Company had not done much for the Avorkers, but in keeping up the fares it hacL prevented this colony from being SAvamped by Sydney unemployed Bv Mr Leys ; He did 1 not think that the fact of New Zealand’s federating would tend to raise the Avages of workers in Australia, as NeAV Zealand s influence AA'ould be too small to effect ieiBy Mr Beauchamp: We fear the cheap boy labour and sAveating competition of Australia and Chinese. A POLITICIAN'S OPINION. Patrick Joseph O’Regan, journalist, and late member for Inangahua, said he had given the subject of federation consideration. He thought the arguments against federation were based on imperfect information. He did not think this colony Avould lose its identity if it federated. He quoted from returns which he had compiled, showing that during the pash four sessions of Parliament, out of 288 Bills passed, only fifteen Avould have had to come under tho review of the Federal Parliament. Some measures passed by the Parliament of NeAV Zealand it A\ r ould have been better to have referred to the Federal Parliament. For instance, our expenditure on defence would have been kept Avithin judicious bounds. In. his opinion the number of troops Ave bad sent to South Africa had been over large, as be did not believe in depleting the colony of its young men. Criticising the Federal Bill, Avhile he Avas in favour of federation, it was upon the assumption that in some respects the- constitution Avould be amended. He did not think the question of dis. tance was of any importance. As to the racial question, he quoted Canada as a case where two distinct races combined. As to the trade view of tee subject, he quite admitted that New Zealand could live without Australia. No doubt Ave AVould have* to give up something. The question of freetrade versus protection would have to be fought out, and until that question was settled Ave could not come to a - conclusion on the financial aspect of the case. As to the better position of the workers in this; colony’, he said the reason Avhy labour was in a worse position, in Australia was because of the aggregation of population in the large cities He believed -that had New Zealand been represented at the Federal Convention the exclusion of Maoris from voting would not have taken place. By the Chairman: He thought that the Federal Parliament would alter the constitution to meet the circumstances /of New Zealand. Until the federal tariff had been fixed, we could) not tell how, far New Zealand finances would be affected’. Assuming that federation would cost the colony half a million per annum, the money would have to Be made up by direct taxation, which, he thought, would be a good thing, asi it would lead to more economical administration. He admitted that the tendency of centralised governments wajs to increase, their powers. By Captain Russell: He did not think that our State rights \rould be overridden. He could not accept the present constitution of the Commonwealth, but he thought it would be altered to meet the necessities of this colony. He did not , think that olimatic conditions would pjreventl {white people from working in Northern Australia.. He would sooner see Northern Australia occupied by ooloured people than that it should become a desert. The distance of New Zealand from Australia would not prevent that fusion and intercourse of the people that Avas desirable in a federation. By Mr Bowen: He believed that the danger from coloured laboui* was magnified. . By Mr Millar: If there was no practical advantage to the workers by federation, there would be no use in joining the federation. . By Mr Luke: He had no faith in reciprocity, end did not think that the colony would suffer from centralisation in_ Australian States. Regarding protection, ho expressed the opinion

that if industries could not stand competition in the open market, they should go elsewhere. By Mr Reid: He thought the Federal High Court would be a better Court of Appeal than the Privy Council, as it would be cheaper By Mr Leys: He believed_that the collection of the Customs would be done more economically by the Federal Government than at present. If the effect of federation was to restrict borrowing it would be a good thing for the colony. _ . The Commission adjourned at o.ou till ten o’clock next morning. The Federation Commission resumed its sittings at the Parliamentary Buildings at 10 a.m. on the 28th. Messrs E. Hannah, boot manufacturer, and W. Ferguson, secretary to the Harbour Board,' were excused from attendance. LETTER FROM MR C. PHARAZYN. Mr C. Pharazyn gave bis views in writing. He summed up bis conclusions in one word, “ Wait.” He was a strong advocate of the principle of federation, but lie thought it was very much like the question of matrimony—marriage was desirable in itself, but any prudent man attached great importance to the question as to when it would be wise for him to choose a wife. There was one important difference between matri- * many and federation —that in the former state the bond would certainly be broken fiy death, and possibly by divorce, . but with regard to the latter the step, once taken, was irrevocable. He thought the Stages would experience great difficulty before they got everything to work smoothly, and that these difficulties would be much increased if the peculiar conditions of _ New Zealand were allowed to complicate, the problem. The wise course for New Zealand to adopt was to wait events in the most friendly spirit, making it quite - clear that we had every wish to join when it became desirable for all concerned to do so. In the meantime, there were a number of questions on which common action with the Commonwealth could be- easily arranged, such as defence, posts and telegraphs, and possibly finance. If that could be clone" in a friendly spirit, we might gradually grow together. PRUDENT TO WAIT. Mr John Duncan (Levin and Co.) was also excused from attending. He also gave his views on the question in writing. He said he had not . devoted much attention to the question, of federation, but he thought it would be prudent to wait until such time as the regulations cf the Commonwealth had been drafted, so that it might be seen clearly to what we were committing ourselves. But if the figures given to the Commission by Mr Nicholas Reid were correct, then it was difficult for us to see how we could avoid pledging the country to federation at. as short a date as possible, if the object of their considerations was to advance the in- - terests of the greater against the lesser number. Mr Reid indicated that under. federation there would be a reduction of duty on sugar, salt, tobacco, boots, etc., to the amount of about £650,000. In other words, a. reduction of the duties on the necessaries of life to the extent named. Now, this boon would be reaped, almost entirely by the small farmers, the artisans and labouring classes, and would represent a. very large saving in the cost of their living. For some years past it had- been given as .a reason why wages should be higher in New Zealand than in Australia that the cost of living here was considerably more than in the other colony, and, admitting that to- be correct, they would see that if such a reduction in the cost of living was made as was indicated by Mr Reid, the argument above quoted would cease to have effect, and whether there was’a-levelling-up of the Australian rates of pay or a slight levellingdown. in the case of New Zealand, they might hope to secure an equal wage in ' the entire federation. That would do away with all the difficulties which they 'had had; in securing an outside market for the labours of their artisans, and give equality of .wage and equality in • cost of living. He saw no reason why • New Zealand should have anything to dread in joining the federation. In point of fact, with its better climate, its more productive, soil, and better 1 type of settler, lie should think it would be a mere question of time when it would be able to take a leading position in the federation.. A POSTAL VIEW. Mr W. Gray, Secretary to the Postal Department, thought that the postal and telegi’aph services of this colony could not be so economically administered under federation. These services were relatively managed on _ a cheaper basis here than they were in Australia. The head office would bo 1200 miles- away. That covered the general ground of objection to federation. It was also probable that our revenue would suffer. As to penny postage, he thought that would be adopted in Australia shortly. He saw no advantage in federation, except in uniformity of administration. The classification of the service would have to be reviewed. He did not think there would be any saving in the cost of oversea mails. There was a difference in the rate of salaries in New Zealand and Australia. Except in the higher grades, the rank and file of the officers were lower-paid in Australia than they were in New Zealand. By Mr Beauchamp: The net value

of the profit made last year in the Pest * and Telegraph Department was £1)4.000, and if he toon into consideration the work done for the Government, it would amount to over £200,000. The Post and Telegraph Departments would be taken over by the Federal Government. He read a comparative statement of the receipts and expenditure of the various States on these services, showing that the revenue in New Zealand from these sources was relatively greater. The telegraph service-in New Zealand was cheaper than in the Australian colonies. ONE OF THE NATIVE-BORN. Pierce C. Freeth, journalist, said he had studied the question of federation from the point of view of one of the native-born. Shortly, he was in favour -of a. Commonwealth of our own. He maintained that this colony could provide all the necessaries of life, and that its people were peculiarly adapted to nation-making. His observations in the Australian colonies led him to believe that the Australians differed from us in character, disposition and sympathies. and that the probame tendency would be to widen the gap in that respect. The Australian was not of the same robust, moral, vigorous type as the New Zealander. His reason for saying so. was that the Australian tendency was to crowd into the cities. On the other hand, the tendency of New Zealanders was to spread out and take a strong hold upon the soil. The climatic influences and natural conditions of this colony tended to- foster industry, shrewdness, thrift and the spirit of self-help. Australia was not necessary to New Zealand,- but frequently New Zealand was necessary to Australia. For the sacrifice of national liberty, we would get Australian trade, which we ■% could afford to dispense with if its price was the loss of our autonomy. As for defence, Australia would not help us very much in that. He was satisfied that if the workers permitted the sacrifice cf the colony’s autonomy, they would never cease to regret it. In his opinion the trend cf future action should be in order to- strengthen our position, to encourage State control of all essential public services; to counteract all attempts at the forming of trusts and combines ;to arrange periodical conferences (in camera) of the heads of Government and a given number of leading business men, as to the best method of exploiting foreign markets ; to increase the facilities for settling the sons of colonists upon the land ; to cement the Imperial connection ; to recognise volunteering as a disciplinary measure from the schools upwards; to encourage horsemanship and rifle-shoot-ing, but discourage militarism and wasteful expenditure on orthodox military training, permanent forces, and coastal defences ; and to administer cur defences and public services with sympathy, judgment and. efficiency. By Mr Leys: From his experience of Australia, he believed that the condition of the people in New Zealand was better than that of the people in Australia. The tendency of the congestion ■of people in the large cities in Australia .was to deteriorates character. By Mr Beauchamp: He thpuglit the tropical region of Australia was no place for a white man to .do manual work in. He had made up his mind that- we could develop our own resources and find markets for our produce independent of Australia. EVIDENCE OF A DRAPERY IMPORTER. Albert Arthur Corrigan, manager of the D.1.C., said he had not considered the question of federation. Anything •that would upset the industries of the colony would be objectionable. He believed that federation would tend to lower the status of the people or New Zealand 1 , and he did not think the manufactures of New Zealand could compete with. those of Australia. He thought it would be inadvisable to federate, because we would simply be absorbed by Australia. By Mr’Beauchamp : He believed that in the event of a financial crisis New Zealand ivould be made simply a dumping ground for Australian goods. A POLITICO-LEGAL OPINION. Thomas William Hislop, barrister, said he had been a member of the Legislature and a Cabinet Minister. He gave the subject of federation some attention some years ago, and he then formed the idea that federation ivould solve problems that could not be dealt with under our present system of govB eminent. Certain questions could be better dealt ivith by a confederation ‘ than by individual States. With respect to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act, and other labour laws iu force in New Zealand, the Federal Parliament would deal ivith suclv mat-* ters, but he thought the New Zealand statutes dealing with such matters would be adopted. He did not think that shorter hours and high wages meant less production; nor did he think that tho cost to the colony of government under the federation would be so great as had been stated. As to the question of railways, there was provision for charging to- the State benefited the interest on the cost of such railways. As to the federal tariff, if it proved the mean between that in Victoria and New South Wales, it would be about the same as that prevailing in New Zea. land. By the Chairman : He would not look upon it as a calamity that the legislation of this colony would be restricted under the Commonwealth, as we ivould

have a voice in the settlement of larger questions. He did not think the Federal Parliament would abrogate our Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act without putting something equal to it in its place. He did not approve or disqualifying Maori voters. As to the matter of distance, it would be a disadvantage in some respects and an advantage, in others. Newfoundland was also an insular community, and refused to join the Canadian Confederacy, nut its progress had been very slow, and capital did not flew in towards its development. -He did not think that the centralisation of power in the Federal Government would be to the disadvantage cf the States. By Captain Russell: A difficulty might arise in the future with regard to ihq, occupation of Northern Australia, by a coloured people, but the difficulty could not arise in a year, and when it did arise he thought the federation could meet it. Assuming that millions of Asiatics occupied the territory, he did'not think that it would alter the characteristics of our race. By Mr Millar: He did not see how the labour of this colony would be injured by federation. He thought we should look at the question from a national point of view. He did not think that federation ivould retard the development of this colony, or that it would reduce the colony to practically the level of a road board. By Mr Beauchamp : The Commonwealth Bill, he thought, required amending in some respects, to suit New Zealand, and if it were not so amended, he thought it ivould be better to wait. He did not admit that federation ivould be detrimental to the character of our population. For the next fifty or hundred years New Zealand would hot, in his * opinion,' be able to pay off any of its debt. By Mr Luke : He did not think the colony would sacrifice its independence by entering the Commonwealth. By Mr Jiteid : He saw no objection to the constitution of the Federal judieiary. By Mr Leys : He thought the risk of the Federal Parliament passing legislation antagonistic to New Zealand was very small. By Major Steward : If New Zealand joined the federation it should be on the basis of an original State. EFFECT UPON THE WOOLLEN INDUSTRY. M. G. Heelets, manager of the "Wellington Woollen Company, said he entirely endorsed the views given by Mr John Ross, as published in the "-New Zealand Times.” By the Chairman : He did not think that we could compete with the lowpaid labour of Australia. His and other "companies had tried the Australian market, and had failed to make it pay. THE JAM INDUSTRY. Simon Kirkpatrick, jam, coffee and spice ■' manufacturer, Nelson, said that federation would very, seriously affect those industries. Freights' to Sydney were much lower than to- New Zealand, and labour was not so highly paid. Then there ivere different factory- laws in New Zealand, which rendered competition against Australia difficult. For the same reason, he believed that all other industries would suffer.. By the Chairman : He saw no advantage to this colony from federating, and thought the legislation of. the. Federal Parliament ivould not be suitable to New- Zealand. In case of war, he did not think that Australia, would be able to assist New Zealand. Bv Mr Leys : The fruit-preserving industry in the colony was a progressive one. By Mr Beauchamp : New Zealand was a good fruit-growing country, if the industry was properly carried on; and the industry was on the increase. He Bud tested the London market, and found that it did not pay to export pulp. ANOTHER LABOUR VIEW. A. H. Cooper, bootmaker, Wellington, president of the Trades and Labour Council, said the Council had considered the question of federation, and had practically unanimously decided against it. He considered that if the barriers of protection were thrown down, it would result detrimentally to the labour of this colony. A FARMER’S VIEWS. J. S. Dalrymple, farmer, Rangitikei, said he had considered the question of federation, and thought it would be to the advantage of the producers of the colony to take a step towards freetrade. Australia might be a competitor for the supply of wheat to the northern portion of this colony, but that was only one item. By Mr Leys: He would be quite prepared to pay double the! amount of land tax if freetrade prevailed. THE FURNITURE TRADE. Henry Fielder, furniture manufacturer, said he had come to 1 the conclusion that if we federated with Australia we would be giving away our birthright. He thought that New Zealand manufacturers cc.uld hold their own with fair houses, in Sydney, but not with Chinese and sweaters. " There were upwards of -1700 Chinamen in various departments of furniture manufacture in Sydney. It would never do for freetrade to prevail in New Zealand. The manufacturers in Sydney imported raw material cheaper and the cost of was much lower there. He believed that the engineering, furniture, bootmaking and clothing factories in this colony would be injured if we federated. New Zealand labour laws

hampered very_ much the industries cf the colony. \V e were only allowed cue boy to five men. ’ What was to be done with the other twenty per cent ? Federation, he also thought, would tend to attract a very undesirable class to New Zealand. New Zealand mechanics were looked upon as better than those in Australia. In the higher class of goods our workmen could excel the Australian manufacturers. By Mr Beauchamp: Our furniture trade was protected to _ the extent of twenty-five per eent. First-class workmen in Australia could earn as much as they could in New Zealand, but in general the wages werei lower in Australia than in New Zealand. By Mr Leys: The labour laws were restrictive to his trade. If he chose, lie could, under the regulations, employ more boys, but be could not get the right sort. By Major Steward: Th. quantity of furniture imported into New Zealand was small, and generally of an inferior class. -- At 3.30 p.m. the Commission adjourned