FEDERAL CONVENTION.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 993, 13 March 1891, Page 31

FEDERAL CONVENTION.

(By Electric Telegraph—Copyright.)

(per press association.) _ Sydney, March o. Sir G. Grey, although benefited by the trip, is still very weak and not able to more about much. He remained in attendance at the Convention all day yesterday. Lord Jersey, Governor of New South Wales, met Sir G. Grey before the Conference began sitting, and had some conversation with him. Sir S. Griffith’s speech yesterday was thoroughly diplomatic, and gave members an Insight" into a few of the difficulties that may lie in the path of Federation. The speeches are likely to touch more on general principles than on details, in consequence of Sir M. Parkes’ remark that it was intended to move the Convention to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the resolutions piecemeal. New Zealand is the only colony which has not sent a native born delegate to the Federal Convention. New South Wales and- South Australia have sent four each. Out of 45 delegates present, 16 are natives of A Robertson has announced his intention of returning to political life, m order to lead the opponents of Federation. Mr Munro, Premier of Victoria, resumed the debate. He said the most unportant question for consideration was that the Union should take place under the British Crown. There Bhould be one Legislative Exeoutive Government, and the latter must be such as to enable it to carry out effectually its own decisions and requiremeats. He traversed the speech of Dir Samuel Griffith, contending that the latter had raised difficulties or puzzles without attempting to indicate the solution. It was, he said, the duty of the Convention to establish a Btable form of working government, and if they did not intend to do this they would probably formulate institutions somewhat like the Congress which existed in America before the present Constitution was oreated. If the power of dealing with finance was equally divided between the Senate and the House, the result would be the absolute inability to carry on the business. He took exception to the first part of the resolutions, which to his mind were not clear enough. He considered the Customs duties should be uniform, and that the House should have the power and authority to enforce such duties, subject to revision of the Senate. . : ~, .. Mr Munro, in continuation, said he could not permit the minority to govern the majority on the question of finance. lney must be just to the whole ot the Colonies while erecting a Government which would prove effectual. , , Mr Playford (South Australia) regarded the resolutions as the ground work for their proceedings. It was quite an error to suppose that free intercourse between the Colonies should begin before the Federal Parliament arranged the tariff. They must continue as at present until the Federal Parliament was in a position to formulate a tariff. The greatest difficulty would be in adjusting the finances between the Federal and present local Governments. The method by which Canada solved the difficulty was already well-knowm If the Federal Government took over the defences they would undoubtedly have to take over the debt. South Australia would certainly expect the Federal Government to take over her forts and pay her for them. That the whole of the Customs revenue could not be civen back to each Colony might be taken for granted. They might be able to give back part. Referring to the form of Government proposed, he said there was no doubt the colonies would object to the Upper Chamber amending money bills. If both Houses were to have co-equal powers respecting money bills, then unmistakably a deadlock would result. Ons House must rale with money bills. ' The Senate might be invested Witn power to reject a Bill, but nothing else. «• Raney,” he said, * * two Houses having to pass the tariff. They would never be able to come to a conclusion. Take the Estimates. If you give the Senate the right to veto any particular line it. may choose, see what a state of confusion would result. You cannot graft responsible government on the Amencan system and give the same powers to a Senate as they have present time. There were ways of strengthening the Senate and preventing the House ridinguroughshod over the Senate. In regard to the tariff, it the Senate objected they could throw it out, but they could not otherwise interfere with the power of veto which is supposed to be exercised by the Queen. They should do all in their power to abol-sh this right as far as possible. So long as any law was within the Constitution, the veto should be abrogated. It was very little exercised now, and it was time it was done away with altogether. In the event of a law being passed which was objected to by the minority, then the measure should be referred to the process of the Referendum, and if the constituencies decided m favour of the Bill, it should not be subject to veto. In regard to the Executive, Victoria and New South Wales might have a majority, and select the whole of the Government from their own representatives, and otner Colonies would thus be unrepresented. Every Colony should be represented. He was prepared to give way to the will of the majority, whatever decision might be arriVsfr T*. Mcllraith (Queensland) thought if the resolutions were carried Federation would be formed whether all the Colonies came in or not. He regarded the commercial aspect as the chief thing. There was no question in his mind but that the resolutions implied Freetrade among the Colonies, and protection against the world. He believed in Protection against the world. If the question were referred to the Colonists It would meet with universal support. In the event of Freetrade they must consider the position the colonies would be in with no manufactures. The mere fact of Proteotion against the world would mean Federation. He argued that the Senate represented the people quite as much as the House, and he saw no reason why the sole power should he given to the Lower House. They must provide some method of dealing

with the separation of parts of the different Colonjies which might arise- Queensland for instance —and how they may be reoeived into the Federation.

Captain Russell (New Zealand) said, jt had been supposed that the Federal spirit did not exist in New Zealand. Owing to the fact that he bad merely to fill in the time to the luncheon adjournment, he did not intend to go fully into the broad subject opened up by the resolutions. l'he great question was whether the Australian Colonies would form themselves into a Btate to which all the Colonies unrepresented could eventually attach themselves. The great object in the Federal Constitution should be to frame a Constitution that remote Colonies could join when they saw fit. It had been said they should have entire power. That was a truism which had almost become a fetish. On every ques tion power rested with the majority, and that majority was often bare or narrow. Power should rest with the people. .He ventured to affirm that the Senate might more properly represent the people of Australia than the House. They were speaking for a large territory now unoooupied, and if they said the sole power should rest with those representing the colonised portion of Australia, how could they have true federation ? They must give the Senate full power to numerically represent the whole of Australia. They must bear in mind that if they adopted the present system of responsible government—and he might remark, by the way, a large section of the New Zealand public were beginning to doubt the benefits of responsible government - great public questions would be often subordinated to personal popularity and to who was to be Premier, &c. Stone walls would be set up periodically, he might almost say perpetually, to prevent the majority giving expression to their views. Under responsible government they had failed to get a true expression of the will of the people. If they gave considerable power to the Senate that state of affairs would bo diminished. So soon os Australasia developed nationality, so soon would it become a power dealing with foreign powers. The system of turning out Governments, and the constant shuffling of the cards, would become a great inconvenience when they had Ambassadors. Ibis would interfere with the foreign, policy of Australia, and it would, therefore, bo necessary to introduce some cheok. The reason why he thought they should have a system of Federation, as loose as possible, was that all the more outlying portions must be allowed to work out their own destiny. They in New Zealand practically had a foreign policy having to deal with the Native raoes. The Conveutlon must agree that they would require to be safe-guarded in that respect before they committed themselves to a Federal policy. If Australia went in for New Guinea the people on that Island would require to be dealt with with the greatest care. There was nothing in the resolutions to show that any foreign race was intended to be dealt with. Again, in regard to what was known as a social upheaval, every Colony must be left to deaf with the matter in their own way. In matters like that, men would appeal to the municipalities rather than to the Federation. Australia, in the plenitude of its power, should have such a Federation as would attract by its centripetal force all remote parts. In the time to come when the Islands of the South Seas become a power themselves, if we are the centre of power these islands will be drawn to us.- The question is yet to be resolved whether America will not divert the trade of the South Seas to herself. Therefore the scheme of Federation should be so loose as to prevent these atoms flying off to the United States, which will probably occur if Australian statesmen do not prevent it. New Zealand was not inimical to Federation. The colonists were unwilling to abrogate their internal powers of management, but there were all sorts of laws which might be assimilated to those of the Federation. With respect to trade, Australia was Important to New Zealand, and it would bo a great loss to lose her trade, but it would be an equally great loss to Australia to be deprived of the products of New Zealand. He ventured to say that New Zealand had other markets than Australia, but the latter, whether she liked it or not, would be forced to take a good part of his Colony’s vegetable products. New Zealand was anxious by every means to develop her trade. They recognised that the marriage laws might be assimilated. In the matter of land defence they would gain nothing, though in maritime defence they might be benefited. It should be remembered that New Zealand possessed great coal supplies, and these supplies should be brought into close relation with Australia. In the remote future the great harbours of New Zealand should not be isolated from Australia. With regard to the judiciary proposals of Sir H. Parkes, he was not prepared - to give a definite opinion, but he would be willing to see the laws assimilated as far as possible. As to the Executive, he confessed his mind was nebulous on that point. Undoubtedly he felt there were many anomalies in the present form. They must broadly consider the lines on whioh the Federal structure was to be built, remembering that a portion of the Continent at present unrepresented would at some future time have great power. At the conclusion of Captain Russell’s speech, Sir H. Parkes read a cable message from the Queen, wishing the assembly success on this important occasion. The Hon Alfred Deakin (Victoria) ocoupied the whole of the afternoon sitting. He criticised at great length the views of the previous speakers. Referring to Captain Russell’s remarks, he Baid that gentleman occupied a singular position. While assuring them that New Zealand’s sympathy with the movement was so ardent, he (Captain Rußsell) was cateful to tell them that they mast not at the present time expect anything from New Zealand. Mr Deakm went on to say that any conclusion to be arrived at must be unanimous, as they had met seeking to be honest in principles to the different Colonies, and to indioate the attitude which our Parliaments are likely to take np. Tbe Convention’s proposals must meet with the sanotion of the

people of Australasia, else all their work would be in vain. He complimented the President on the framing of resolutions which, he contended, embodied tbe exact principles at present lying at the root of the Federal Council Bill. The resolutions were not laid down as if to be placed on record, but merely as principles. It was indisputable that the task of fixing a tariff was no ordinary one. The difficulty whioh was felt by each Colony would be multiplied sixfold when dealing with the whole of Australia. He declined to believe that the time could not definitely be known whioh must elapse before the Federal Parliament could deal with the tariff. He could not be content therefore to leave this question open as proposed. The Colonies had acquired vested interests, while millions of capital had been invested. He refused to believe that the Federal Parliament would ignore the question of what might occur if were swept away. It was their duty to obtain a guarantee for the preservation of interests suoh as these. He muat say at the outset that the customs was a sine qua non of a Federal Union. The tariff on our own seaboard must be settled, taking Australasia as a whole, no matter what - any individual Colony might feel. It was, he considered unjust to attempt to gain this result at a single bound. It might perhaps be that ia the first years they would only reduce a certain percentage, so that the people would be appealed to once or twice before the protective tariff was swept away.. Thus they would give those who had invested capital in the colonies a chance of knowing what to expect. However, he did not think the Federal Parliament would sweep away the protective tariff. He fondly hoped that the union would be eternal. Why, he asked, should the consideration for a few years be denied when the object attained was so lasting. Supposing this guarantee given, It did not necessarily imply that nothing should be done in the way of free interchange in the meantime. As a consequence, the guarantee would not prove an absolute bar, as with such a guarantee several of the Colonies would see their way to interchange, and no one would more cordially support that than himself. Regarding defence, he trusted that it would be placed on tbe basis of as small a standing army as was consistent with effioienoy, and on as large a citizen soldiery as the means at their disposal would command. Concerning the Executive he thought that until the method of election had been definitely settled the power to be conferred on the Senate must remain in some doubt. He would not be averse to each Colony determining the method to be followed in their own Colonies. However, until the method is distinctly stated he could not say with what authority the Senate should be entrusted. Personally he was inclined to invest them with large authority, as he had no desire to see the second Chamber a replica of the Canadian one. The second Chamber would consist'', of men of ripe judgment and high oharaoter. The Senate should only have the power to reject, not alter measures of the House. If they conferred an eternal veto on all the acts sanctioned by the people and the other Chamber, would they be prepared to face tbe people and ascertain whether they represented them or not ? The strengthening of the Amerioan Senate had seriously injured the popular Chamber. Tnerefore, he said, let us define what degree. of veto we were prepared to give, and then the matter would assume a clearer aspect. They might have a House based on the British constitution which would better meet with the confidence of the people. He did not wish to see the Senate acting in any degree under compulsion. of the House nor the reverse. All taxation under Federation must be of a uniform character. Objection bad been taken to such a course, because it might interfere with State rights. He emphatically denied that such was the case. Although one part of the Colony might be benefited by Federal expenditure without the other part receiving benefit, would State rights be infringed? Decidedly not. He challenged them to show bow any expenditure would conflict with State rights. Let us know what State rights are. Then put them under a constitution where no 3enate can touch them With regard to the judiciary, he thought certain questions of common law should still bo sent to the Privy Council, although the greater proportion of cases now sent might well be dealt with in the Colonies. He "affirmed Sir Samuel Griffith’s remarks as to the wisdom of continuing responsible Government in iits present form, because it was much safer to go on lines which we understood, and the less departure made the better. To endow two chambers with equal authority would be to encourage deadlocks. In conclusion he referred to the Ah Toy case as an instance of a constitutional difficulty which demanded the serious consideration of the Convention. He read the opinion of judges, one of whom went so far as to say that the rights we now enjoyed were not warranted by the state of the law. He hoped that a firm Constitution, absolute and perfect in every particular, would be founded. Sydney, March 6.

The chief interest at yesterday’s sitting of the Convention was centred in Mr Deakin s effective speech, which showed brilliant debating power, and in the nicely-turned speech by Captain Russell. Mr E Barton (New South Wales) resumed the debate at the Federal Convention this morning. The question of guarantee with regard to a tariff, he said, raised a difficult point. He felt somewhat in accord with Mr Deakin in this matter, and means might bo provided for giving effect to his suggestions. Referring to the first resolution, he would like to see something that would satisfy all. He urged that the territory of any province should not be subject to absorption by another province without the consent of the province interested. He would like to see some guarantee given in this direction, for unless territorial rights were conserved Federation would be well nigh impossible. He considered this was one of the State

rights which Mr Deakin inquired about. In addition to its general functions the Senate should be the guardian of these rights. A Senate formed on some such basis as that of the United States would conserve all these rights. It did not follow that the House alone represented the people. He contended, that the Senate also did so. If the Prime Chamber rested on universal suffrage, which be trusted it would do, it would have a preponderating power. It was impossible to foresee the end of friotion if the power of veto over details were withheld from the Senate.

Mr Barton continued The power of vetoing details would lessen rather than increase the friotion between the two Houses. The friotion that would arise would be between the States in their political capacities. State rights must be so protected that no suspicion could arise In the minds of those representing the smaller States. When they considered the great size of the Colonies they had to deal with it become the more incumbent on them to safeguard their rights. The Judiciary Court must have the power to enforce its decrees throughout the length and breadth of the land, otherwise the Federal laws would lose their value. The wider its jariseiction the safer Federation would be. They would be more likely to preserve harmony by entrusting the interpretation of the laws to the tribunal whioh would deal with the citizens than by leaving it in the hands of those who act between State and State. There might be exceptional cases involving Imperial interests which it would be necessary to refer to tbe Privy Counoil » otherwise he advocated the abolition of the jurisdiction of the Privy Council. The latter was not one whit superior to the Judiciary which could be constituted here. There was ample material for the constitution of a court to which no citizen should fear to entrust bis appeal. He thought they must make tbe Ministerial power responsible to the House. He did not think it dangerous to do so, and besides it would make the Constitution work better. He did not like the suggestion that a proportion of the Ministers should retire on the vote of one or both Houseß. He admitted that certain phases of the constitution must be left to develop themselves, but they must have the choice of two things—either dissociation of the Executive, as in the United States, or the ordinary principle of Constitutional Government. Personally he believed they would find it safer to follow the old lines then to rely od the segregatioa of Ministers who would be hampered by being amenable to the President. Sir J. Downer believed they oould follow no better example than that of the United States in the constitution of the two Houses and thß latter’s Federation of independent States, but not amalgamation into one empire. The United States got over the difficulty they were now encountering by recognising the States in one Chamber, and people in the' other ; as regards powerE they wore co-ordinate, with the exception of the right to introduce money Bills, and their Constitution worked as satisfactorily to the smaller States as it did to the larger ones. There was a natural desire to look to the Government from which they sprung for precedents, but Great Britain furnished no such precedents therefore they had to look to the experience of other countries. Suppose Government weremaderespcnsible to the House they would see in the future that the authority of the Senate would gradually dwindle tili it became absolutely subject to that of the House. The difficulty respecting the Exeoutive was far greater than that of the Constitution of the two Houses, and It was impossible to conserve the rights of States if the Government were solely responsible to the House. For instance, take the two colonies, Victoria and New South Wales, representing probably as against the others the proportion of 8 to 3. The result would undoubtedly be that these colonies by settling ancient feuds and removing the Customs barrier conld select a Government exclusively for themselves, and the smaller Colonies would have no voice in the Government. Therefore the Executive authority must rest with both Houses, under the circumstances possibly the Swiss system might be resorted to. Then there would be a Government having the confidence of the House, while not being responsible to it in the ordinary sense. The Government, too, would be much more consistent than a Government which can only exist under the Empire. He entirely agreed with the remarks which fell from Mr Barton lespeoting the judiciary. A strong judiciary was an absolute necessity to strong Federation. There was, be thought, no necessity for appeals to be made to the Privy Council for the following reasons : (1) That justice should be speedy; (2) that they Bhould trust their own tribunal ; and lastly, that when any appeal is required against the Supreme Court’s decision the question as to who was right or wrong in the matter became so fine a point as to be almost a question of temperament as to which way it would be decided. The border Customs must be removed, and he a’so agreed that whilst intercolonial freetrade was one of tbe eonditions, they must, for a time, at all events, be protected against the world. Without this understanding the Colonies could not be federated. For the present, he thought it would be satisfactory to the protective Colonies if a time was fixed when freetrade was to begin. Hon A. J. Thvnne, M.L.C. (Queensland) spoke up to luncheon, but enunciated nothing new or important beyond what had already been advanced. The Hon R. C. Baker, M.L.C. (South Australia), said he was glad tho resolutions provided against taking immense tracts of unsold land in various States and throwing them into a common fnnd. He hoped that Federal and Provincial finance would be kept entirely separate, as it would be unfair to the Federal Government to have to assume the liabilities of the Provinces. America did not mix these finances. They could not altogether refrain from taking over some of the public works and paying for them, but if they commenced to mix the two as was done in Canada friction and jealousies would be interminable. One of tho prices which they should be prepared to pay for Federation was to allow » free market

to other Colonies’ manufactures. With regard to defence, he hoped they would do nothing by halves or divide the command. It would be better to call the Senate a Council of States, because it waa in no way analogous to an Upper House, which only represented a portion of the people, while a Council of States would represent the whole. The representatives should be elected by a group of constituencies, and the Council by the people grouped in States. It was not essential that these resolutions should define the method of the election of the Senate, as it had a 3 much right as the House to claim to represent the people. By means of the House union would be preserved, while by means of the Senate it would be individually retained. The Council of Stages should hive free and untrammelled power of saying whether certain matters should be legislated upon by the Federal Parliament or by the States Governments. A Senate constituted without equal powers with tho House would be a very unsafe custodian of the rights of the States.

Hon. B. S. Bird, M.H.A. (Tasmania) feared that if the resolutions were passed in their present form the scheme formulated on such a basis would not do justice to all the Colonies. Broadly speaking, the first resolution might be agreed to. If the rights of the various Colonies were invaded it would be in vain to go back and ask them to concur. It appeared to him that Victoria was prepared to concede more than the smaller states were prepared to do. Certainly more than he, a 3 representative of Tasmania, would. The conservation of taxatioaand expenditure of Tasmania required more consideration than Victoria apparently required. The sooner Freetrade was adopted between the Colonies the better. The time which must elapse before the Federal Parliament would be able to formulate a tariff would be ample to permit the various manufacturers to prepare for the new tariff. He thought they would find little dissension respecting defence, as it was a wide question. He wished to know whether the Federal Government would have the control of the vessels which form the Imperial Squadron, and to which most of the Colonies contribute. He considered the proposed form of the Constitution of the Senate was somewhat inconsistent, and also the powers of the Executive. If the House had power to tax, what protection, he asked, would the small Stateß have. In justice to the latter, it would be necessary that the power of veto, even to raising money, Bhould be vested in the Senate. The small Colonies would not (only ?) consent to raising money required for their own purposes. The most important to the States would be the money bills, and yet only the House would have power to deal with them. Federation on these lines would deprive the States of the very power they ought to conserve. They did not want nominees or representatives of nominees in the Senate. One bon gentleman had called attention to the necessity which might arise for the dissolution of the Senate or House. If the Senate was going to be so representative of the people, there would be the probability of having tbe Senate dissolved if it repeatedly refused to pass measures which had passed the House. Thus they would get a new expression of opinion, viz., that of the States as a whole. He favoured a fixed term of office for the Senators asjwell as Representatives. Sir P. Jennings (Queensland) was averse to the re-adjustment of boundaries,fand said the greatest drawback to the Colonies was arbitrary Customs duties which would interoept the free passage of produce from one colony to another. Without the abolition of these duties Federation would be a farce. He waa in favour of the Senate having equal power with the House with regard to taxation. He believed all legal questions, at anyrate 99 out of every 100, would be more speedily settled by the High Court of Appeal than if they were sent to the Privy Council. The Convention then adjourned till Monday. Sydney, March 8. The Western Australian delegates to. the Federal Convention have arrived. Mr H. J. Wrixon (Victoria) and the delegates from Western Australia, took their seats at the Federal Convention to-day. Sir H. Parkes, on behalf of the older colonies, extended a warm welcome to the representatives of the newest addition to the free colonies of Australia. The Hon. J. Forrest, the Premier, returned thanks to Sir H. Parkes, and brought forward a question of permitting Mr Shiels, who sat temporarily during Mr Wrixon’s absence, to retain his seat without power to vote. Apropos of voting, Sir H. Parkes said he hoped no such course would be necessary. If they could not come to a conclusion without voting, there would be less prospect of their ultimatoly being in accord. Some opposition was shown to the Hon. Mr Forrest’s proposal, and eventually It was decided that Mr Shiels should take no further part in the proceedings. Colonel Smith (Victoria) resumed the debate. ~ , „ Sydney, March 9. Colonel Smith said that though there was no particular enthusiaaim in the Colonies over Federation, there was no opinion against it. It would be accepted by the country provided it were based on justice and equity. Speaking of defence, be.pointed ont there were 600,000 men in . the Colonies of what was known as soldiers’ age, who formed a defence themselves. He suggested that a committee should be formed to collect evidence on defence, and report what form of clause should be inserted in the Constitution. With reference to the fiscal question, he was prepared to enter into a friendly competition with other colonies, if dealt with in an equitable manner. The people who had built up industries must not be sacrificed. He hoped the Convention would adopt the policy of Protection. The fiscal policy mast be provided for before they abolished border Customhouses. Victoria would not object to Freetrade among the colonies with Protection against the world. He looked upon the Senate aa a judicial body or body of advice, and thought tho

beat way would be for the local Parliaments to elect Senators in groups. If the latte? had to contest the immense districts they would be required to represent the cost would be enormous. He would make it a condition that each Colony should have a representative in the Ministry. In order to have a modification of'the British Constita* lion he thought they should let both Houses club together and elect a Ministry. Sir George Grey, wfco was well received on rising, said he thought the proper duty of the framers of the representative Constitution was to begin wish the lowest body upon which the Constitution was to be built, that is the people. It was their duty first rather to consider the Constitution of Australasia, and devise from this a perfect form of Constitution for such States as may join the General Government. They could only hope to win over the Colonies by setting forth the advantages which would accrue. He hau been much struck with the account given by the Kaffirs to Sir H. Loch, on a recent visit, of how they beoame drawn to the British Crown, and of tue blessings they had received from the Queen, which made them cliDg to her with devotion and affection. Therefore he believed they had only to hold out inducements to Australasia and the Colonies could be made ‘° join a strong Federation. It was the duty of the Convention to get a Constitution which would enable the States to correct their own Constitutions. He favoured an elective Lieutenant Governor. Both Houses should be made responsible to the people. If they studied the Constitution of -New Zealand they would find that originally each Province had had the right to make its own Constitution, and vary it from time to time. Ha instanced the working of the Hew Zealand Provincial system, which gave all powers of self government they could desire. They would apparently have some difficulty in defining the powers of the General Government. They must not imitate America by saying the States are to he paramount and to be the sole possessors of power. The inevitable result would be that the time would arrive when some such question as slavery would disturb the mind of the people at large. If the majority attempted to dominate the minority a deadlock would occur, and as parties became more equal on the question then nothing but a civil war would settle it. Ha counselled them to take steps to prevent the disaster which overtook America. The powers of the two Chambers could easily be adjusted, and this was essentially necessary among the points to be considered.

Sir George Grey continued: The difficulty might be prevented in this way—when the General Assembly chose to legislate on any subject then the legislation on such subjeot should be withdrawn from the States. He referred to the great interest in Federation shown by leading English statesmen who had visited the colonies. He looked to this as an element of safety in regard to the step 3 which the British Parliament might take with respect to codceding onr requests. It was essential to everyone that the officers of State should be elected ; the people should have the right to say who the Governor-General should be. Let them choose him from where they will. Ho nation conld be perfect unless the people lad every office upon to their ambition. To say no man should have such an opportunity was positive cruelty. It would be an incentive to every man to educate himself for the position. He would like to see the place of AgentsGeneral taken by officers who had direct access to the Soveieign, as the Secretary for Ireland had. It would bean advantage to the Colonies to have such officers moving in the highest circles. They should occupy the office for three or four years. This too, would give men another opportunity to educate themselves to fill such posts. They must legislate so that the future will legislate for itself, and so that each succediDg generation would bless the ancestors who had left them dom to legislate for themselves. It would not much matter how the first elections were conducted, provided power ■were given to alter the method in the future. They could not tell what political inverttlons might be made In the principles of representation. Federation was comparatively a new invention like electricity, and day by day new modes of administration would be found. Let them, therefore, open the path to all future steps. Let them lead on and they would find grateful races follow. One thing lay very close on his mind, that was religious differences, which in past times had prevented men holding seats in Parliament. Let this Federation say if the English-speaking people choose to be federated in one great body—then men who bail from republics, men who hail from monarchies, may join us. They can equally advise for the good of the whole what i 3 necessary for the common benefit. Hovel these doctrines might seem, but there was much in them. Regarding the Pacino Islands they must remember that the XJuited States would have a great say in the Pacific. What was the feeling in England when he suggested common Customs duties for the Islands. When she found it would mean payment of salaries to officers to control these Islands, ahe sent peremptory orders to discontinue such efforts. He referred to the part he played in attempting to bring about the Federation of South Africa, for which he was dismissed from office, though subsequently re-instated. There was one who thought differently from those who deemed him dangerous, and that one was Queen Victoria, who was determined that the energies of the British should spread instead of attempting to curtail and throw off outlying dependencies. He was averse. to the creation of a military spirit and longing for war. He would rather see a small force sufficient for purposes that might occur, though he did not think they would ever be molested. If they fostered a military spirit they would cause the whole world to become standing camps. For Heaven’s sake let them keep the present position free from the mania which made Europe a stand, jng camp. He entertained a belief that what he had asked for would come, if not pow,yet in a short period.

Sir George, on concluding, was loudly applauded. . , Mr A. Rutledge (Queensland) expressed himself favourable to the Senate being constituted on the American basis# XhG judiciary should have not only jurisdiction as an appellant court, but original jurisdiction on subjects prescribed by the Convention. Mr C. C. Kingston (South Australia) was of opinion that the Convention must state in precise terms what rights would have to be suriendered for the requirements of the nation. He felt that the American system commends itself to Uie Colonies rather than the Canadian. It would be necessary to make provision for possible alteration in boundaries caused by the formation of fresh States, and for their admission to the Federal Union. If it wsb the intention to establish Intercolonial freetrade at the time of and not before the Federal Tariff was adopted, he would give the proposition his entire support. It would be a great mistake to initiate Freetrade before this was done. Thev should have Protection against the world. He considered that the manufacfaoturers should know when the support they were now deriving from the Intercolonial Tariff would be abolished. It was the duty of everyone in time of peace to qualify himself to defend his country at the least possible expense. He advocated the various colonies arranging their own method of representation on the {senate. There need be no fear of anticipating any serious difficulty of collision between the two houses, because they represented the same people. They must have two Houses having mutual control over one another They must confer on the Senate Important powers, though it was not necessary to give it co-ordinate powers. It certainly should have the power of vetoing details. He did not think it necessary to give the Senate control over the Executive, and questioned whether it was essential to have Responsible Government.

He approved dispensing with appeal to the Privy Council. They should have a High Court capable of settling all disputes likely to arise between the Federal and local Parliaments. He would like to see a Federal Tribunal settle industrial disputes. Mr N. Fitzgerald (Victoria) eulogised Sir G. Grey’s speech, but objected to the suggestion to make the Governor-General elective. While they remained united to Great Britain that official mast be appointed by the Crown. There should be no absorption of any Colony even for the purpose of forming a new colony, and certainly not for the aggrandisement of any other colony. He favoured intercolonial freetrade, and predicted that the policy of Federated Australia would be protection. A Federal Land Defence would never be found of any value to Hew Zealand. Their present system of naval defence for some time to come would be just sufficient to protect their own ports against stray cruisers, and the coal ports of New Zealand must still remain under the strong arm of England. He deprecated fostering a military spirit beyond. actual requirements. He objected to Senators being subject to the will of the people. The Senate Ehould be a cheek, to moderate impulsive public movements. He deprecated depriving the Senate of power beyond complete veto. He objected to the separation of the Justiciary from England, which he regarded as the fountain head of Justice. If they out themselveß adrift they might prevent English capital coming into the country, Sydney, March 10. During his speech yesterday Sir . G. Grey was listened to with great attention. He struck the most anti-State-right note during the present debate when he proposed to concede the power to the Federal Parliament of selecting it own sub-

jects for legislation. , The proposal caused marked dissent.

Mr Fitzgerald delivered a fierce oration in support of extended powers being given to the Senate. , . , A number of congratulatory addresses from religious bodies and other institutions were presented when the Convention met this morning. , Mr Dibbs (New South Wales) resumed the debate. He thought it would be better to first decide what the basis or Federation should be before dealing with the question of State rights. The Senate must have large powers if the Federation was to be respected. They must grant the States a fair representation in the Parliament, otherwise Federation would be a lamentable failure. Tim bed-rock of Union must be the fiscal policy, ancithis must be definitely decided before Federation could take place. ~ , Mr Dibbs continued—He claimed that Victoria, by the policy of Protection, had drawn the other colonies, with the exception of New South Wales, into a similar policy. The President of the Conference, Sir H. Parkes, must now be looked upon as the latest convert to Protection, seeing that he was willing to sacrifice Freetrade to the will of the Federal Parliament. Mr Dibbs denounced Victoria’s desire for guarantees for vested interests. She must bo prepared to make sacrifices similar to thoso of all the colonies. If they were to li&ve Froetracle intercolomally they must have it at once. South Wales, South Australia, Tasmania and Queensland would be the biwoest victims, therefore Victoria must be prepared to meet these colonies m a liberal spirit. Federation, he Imped, would be the means of settling the dimcult question of the Murray River rights for ever. The attitude of New Zealand

meant that in the event of freetrade in Australia it would be impossible, in justice to these States, to permit New Zealand to participate in the advantage or free markets if she stood out of the Federation. There must be no destruction of territorial rights, except by a twothirds majority of the people interested. He regarded the question of defence as most dangerous. He hoped. Sir George Grey’s words would be taken to heart by the people. The new Government would want no military force, but should make every man able to repel invasion from without. They were asked to form a Constitution under the Crown. He presumed it was intended to give the ao-bye to Imperial Federation. The latter would not find favour with the people of Australia. They could not be federated imperially any more strongly than they wera to-day. He indignantly objected to cutting adrift from the Crown by abolishing the right of appeal t°_the Privy Council, and conferring the right to elect the Governor-General on the people.

Sir J. G. Lee Steere (Western Australia) said that unless his Colony was very exceptionally treated it would not be able to enter the Federation at the P re ' sent time. If it was to be represented on the basis population, which was very small, he considered in this connection that the proposed equality of representation would be inconsistent with the poor representation in the Lower House. He could not agree to give up the whole of the Customs duties, which constituted half their present revenue. If they did it would be necessary to impose direct taxation to

meet their obligations, as one half of their imports came from other colonies. Therefore they should be recouped in some way for giving up the duties. He advocated the construction of a Federal railway to Western Australia, the latter providing the land. Perth was as far distant from the next largest city as New Zealand. These difficulties were reasons for not joining, almost as great as New Zealand. He looked on tha Senate as the best means of safeguarding the small Colonies, and he would give it all the powers of the Lower House, except the right to amend money bills and taxation. He believed in the retention of appoal to the Privy Council as a tie binding us to the Mother Country. He thought the Convention should fix the Capital, or at any rate the place where the first Parliament was to meet.

Mr J. A. Cockburn (South Australia) thought they should not trouble themselves with the question of separation, but trust to evolution which had guided them so far. It would be dangerous to have as the Capital any city which was unduly powerful. The Federal authority must have abolute control of the territory in which the Capital was situated. . ® drew a distinction between separation Federation and unification Federation. What thoy wanted must be a compromise between the two. He considered the very element of Federation was rigidity, therefore they could not retain the elasticity hitherto observable under Parliamentary sovereignty. No Parliament could have the power of changing the Constitution. Under Federation the power was split up between the two Houses instead of being vested in one authority. He would follow the Swiss couise of electing Ministers by members of Parliament, They should endeavour as far as possible to give

elasticity to the Constitution, but the difficulty would be to reconcile the rigidity required with the elasticity they had been used to, and which was the cause of past progress they were so proud of. They would look to Federation to protect their privileges and still further advance their freedom. They must avoid carrying to a new territory any false analogies. Houses with co-ordinate powers could not exist unless they were subject to the sovereignty of the people. Mr Cockburn continued —He thought the Council on which the States were to be represented should be elected direct by the people. There was no question of democracy in the matter, for it had been proved that the judgment of the whole people was better than the judgment of a section of the people. The Lower House should be renewed by degrees by the infusion of new blood yearly. With regard to uniform legislation, much scope must be left to the several States. In all cases it would be better to make experiments in this direction on a small rather than on a large-scale. While not defending the Federal Council, he was compelled to the conclusion that if they took it as a basis, gave it an Executive and power over defence, settled the fiscal question, and divided one Chamber into two, they would more rapidly reach satisfactory Federation. Let them recognise the work already done, but never utilised, and be careful how they broke with the past. Mr N. J. Brown (Tasmania) regretted that New Zealand was standing out. He thought the losses which would arise from Federation would be . counterbalanced by increased commercial advan-

tages of having markets opened for free interchange of commodities throughout Australia. He supported the fixing of a time when the change of tariff should take place. He hoped they would not separate from England, and thought the present form of government more in accord with the instincts of the people than any yet proposed. He did nob think the Senate at all likely to act in a narrow-minded manner. They should not lay down rigid rules, but such a framewerk as they could take back to their several Parliaments with some hope of acceptance. Mr H. J. Wrixon (Victoria) was not aware that Victoria desired to make stipulations. Mr Deakin’s suggestion of a guarantee applied to all and not to Victoria alone. Personally he thought no guarantee was necessary, seeing that the Colonies could retain their tariffs till the Federal Parliament made the alteration. Vested interests would be amply conserved, as the people would be fully represented on the Federal Parliament. He suggested that a small committee should be appointed by the Convention to go into the fiscal question, and report as to what course they thought best to take. State rights was a serious question, and it seemed impossible to Arrive at a satisfactory solution except by a system of give and take. He concurred in retaining the English system of Government. It was a serious proposition to give the Senate power over finance. One House or the other must elect the Government, and therefore must control the finance. Handing over finance to the Senate meant practically handing over the Government to that body. Such scheme would he injurious, for any State with a population under a million could control States containing over two millions. If the Executive was taken from both Houses then they might divide the power, but if the English system was followed they could not give co-ordinate powers to both Houses.

Mi’ Wrixon continued—The greatest advantage of Federation would be the possession of one Judiciary. The Constitution of the Court of Appeal, however, was unwise. Retention of the appeal to the Privy Council tended to uniformity of law throughout the Empire. He believed that the fiscal and State rights difficulties would he found imaginary if they fixed their minds on what was required. Mr J. Forrest (Western Australia) simplified the difficulties set forth by Sir J. G. Lee Steere in the way of Western Australia joining. By Federation the Colonies would lose prestige individually that collectively they might, flourish. When they returned to their homes they were sure to be asked, what advantages would be gained by sinking then individuality. Hs would reply—We shall be defended, we shall have freetrade and good laws. Western Australia might retort —How can Eastern Australia defend us ? We may have freetrade without Federation, and we can make our own laws. He believed the only security the smaller States would have was to make the Senate strong. What influence would his Colony have in the Lower House with only two or three members ? Victoria and New South Wales would have more members than all the other colonies put together. The Senate should have equal power with the House, and also be allowed to amend Money Bills. He favoured the election of the Senate by the Legislatures, otherwise they would get two Chambers too much alike. He failed to see how the power to make or unmake Ministries could be taken from the Lower House, and favoured adhering to the present Constitutional practice. He concurred in the resolutions generally, and hoped that provision would be made for the Colonies entering Federation in the future. It was extremely unlikely that Western Australia would agree to Federation unless they could show an attempt would be made to improve the means of communication with the Eastern States. The Convention then adjourned till next day.

(SPECIAL TO PRESS ASSOCIATION.) London, March 6. Sir Charles Dilke, in referring to the Federal Convention in Sydney, passes a high eulogium on Sir Henry Parkes as the leader of the grand movement. The remit, he considers, will be that the Australian Colonies, as new constituted will be replaced by the Dominion of Australia. _ Mr Henniker Heaton speaks in the highest praise of the speech delivered at the Convention by the Hon Alfred Deakln, of Victoria. (PER PRESS ASSOCIATION.) London, March 7. The Spectator, referring to the National Convention in Sydney, considers it started, badly, and that it was a fatal mistake to have allowed representatives of the press to ba present. It believes that Sir Henry Parkes’ scheme will create a bundle of States allied chiefly for defence and not for true National Government, and, further, that it 1s only a cumbrous arrangement for defending Australia.