Parliament.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 602, 18 August 1883, Page 7

Parliament.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. THURSDAY AUGUST 9. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The St. John’s College Removal Bill passed all final stages. The Guardian, Trust, and Executors Companies Bill -was read a second time on the motion of Mr Holmes. ELECTRIC LIGHT ON COASTAL STEAMERS. Mr MENZIES asked the Hon. the Premier what steps have been taken in conformity with the resolution agreed to by this Council on the 23rd June, 1881, namely, “ That the Government be requested to inquire whether it is not expedient to cause all steam vessels carrying passengers along the coast of the colony, to fit up the electric light on board; and, if the same appears practicable, to bring the subject without delay under the consideration of Her Majesty’s Government, with the view of regulations being issued making it imperative upon passenger-carrying steam vessels to carry the electric light ? ” He had anticipated that ere this the Government would have announced what course had been taken to carry out the wish of the Council. The PREMIER replied that the light had not been adopted elsewhere, although the matter had from time to time been discussed at Home, though with no definite result, but the Government was still keeping the matter in view. PAYMENT OF MEMBERS. The SPEAKER ruled that the motion on this subject standing in Mr Chamberlin’s name was out of order, as a motion on the same subject had previously been given notice of by Mr Pharazyn, which would be before the Council on the next day. - DIRECT STEAM SERVICE. Ur POLLEN moved, That a Select Committee be appointed, to whom should be referred the papers presented to this Council on the subject of the direct steam service with Great Britain, with power to confer with any Committee appointed for a. similar purpose by the House of Representatives, and to report with as little delay as possible. The Committee to consist of the Hon. Mr Acland, the *■" fHoft. Mr Holmes, the Hon. Mr Hart, the Hon. Mr G. R. Johnson, the Hon. Mr Menzies, the Hon. Mr Miller, the Hon. Mr Richmond, the Hon. Mr Robinson, the Hon. Mr Williamson, and the mover. Agreed to. FIRST READINGS. The Bankruptcy Bill was read a first time, and the second reading was made an order for the following day. The Charitable Duties Exemption Bill, and the Gold Duties Abolition Bill were also read a first time. CONFEDERATION AND ANNEXATION BILL. Mr RICHMOND, on the motion that the Council go into Committee on this Bill, remarked that the Bill was exceedingly vague, as it did not specify the islands proposed to be annexed. The Bill was a kind of advertisement for the colony, and he hoped the Government would see its way to drop the Bill at once, as it had served all the purposes that had been in view with regard to the matter. Sir G. S. WHITMORE trusted that the Government would not be allowed to drop the Bill. The objection of the hon. member who had just resumed his seat, apparently, was the brand mark on the top of the Bill. He for one" was quite willing to advertise the colony, for they must do something if the colony was to follow out the destiny designed by nature fpr it. The colony was destined to be a large and important maritime power, and in the future New Zealand would probably stand in the same relationship with the islands of the Pacific, and perhaps with Australia, as England stood at the present time with regard to other nations. Something must be done if the colony was desirous of meeting it 3 engagements with the public creditor. He heartily supported the Bill, and attached no importance to the fact that the islands proposed to be annexed were not specified in the Bill, as the Council might rest assured that no islands would be annexed which would not prove of advantage to the colony. Mr HOLMES considered that, taking into consideration what had transpired within the last month with regard to the rumor that Erance intended to annex certain of the islands, and that Germany was casting longing eyes towards a portion of New Guinea as a new colonial possession, he did not think that the bugbear of expense need be entertained, for he would ask what did the Dutch settlement in New Guinea cost Holland ? Scarcely one shilling. The annexation of the islands would not be brought about by force of arms, but would be accomplished only with the full consent of the islanders themselves. The Erench proposed to deport 60,000 criminals to New Caledonia, and .these criminals would - filter through that island to the adjoining islands, and he asked the Council to think for an instant of the disastrous effects likely to accrue to the colonies from the close proximity of such desperate charaters. He supported the Bill, and trusted that the Council would strengthen the hands of the Government in passing the Bill. Mr ROBINSON supported the Bill, and expressed surprise at the opposition offered by Mr Richmond, more especially as that hon. gentleman had in a former speech on the subject -stated that he considered that the people of New - Zealand were by past experience the best qualified to govern the islands of the Pacific. Dr. GRACE expressed surprise that the colony should desire to leave their domestic financial concerns to make an effort to acquire vast prospective wealth in the future. The colony was undoubtedly in a most critical condition, financially speaking, and he believed that what the colony required was rest—com j>lete rest—so that it might attend to its own commercial resources. Dr. POLLEN objected to the offensive remark made by one hon. gentleman that, the objection of another hon. gentleman to the Bill arose through the brand mark on the top of the Bill. The question of the policy of annexation had been settled by the Council, which had expressed its desire to concur with the other branch of the Legislature, and the only thing that now remained was to decide upon the mode of procedure. Mr BRANDON thought that the first thing to do was for Parliament to declare what island or islands were to be annexed, and then to provide the machinery for so annexing. Mr HART was of opinion that it would be to put the cart before the horse if they were to declare what islands were to be annexed before providing the machinery. Mr MENZIES considered that the Australasian colonies must reign supreme in the Pacific, and he, therefore, thought that the present time was an opportune one to pass the Bill, in the face of the present evident desire of certain European states to annex the South Pacific Islands. Mr SCOTLAND pointed out that the colony was enormously in debt, and it was, therefore, scarcely wise to incur the expense of establishing sub-colonies. The dream of annexation was too magnificent, too golden a one to be ful-

filled. With regard to the rumors that foreign powers were casting longing eyes to the islands, he desired to say he did not believe a word of it. Mr OLIVER remarked that the idea of annexing the islands was by no means a new one, for about 10 years since Sir Julius Vogel, in a pamphlet, had suggested . the annexation as now proposed. The question had not only been discussed iu New Zealand, but it had also engaged a very large amount of attention in the neighboring colonies. The burden of governing the vastest empire which the world had ever seen was something enormous, and it was therefore no wonder that the Imperial Government did not wish' to acquire new possessions or to accept new responsibilities. Such responsibilities, so far as the annexation of the South Pacific Islands was concerned, should, and no doubt would, be accepted by New Zealand, which, from its immense seaboard and contiguity, was destined to sway tlie destinies of these islands. The policy contained in the Bill was a New Zealand policy, and it was for this reason he asked the Council to go into Committee upon the Bill. The Council went into Committee on the Bill, which was reported with two verbal and unimportant amendments, the third reading being made an order for the following day. MINING COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The PREMIER, in moving the second reading of this Bill, remarked that it was almost identical with a measure passed by tlie Council last session, and, as it involved no new principle, he trusted the second reading would be agreed to. The motion was agreed to, arid the Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday next. The House adjourned at 4.30 to tlie next day. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, AUGUST 9. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. SLANDERS IN NATIVE PETITIONS. On the motion that a certain Native petition do lie on the table, Mr SHEEHAN called the attention of the House to this petition, as containing slanderous accusations against him in his capacity as a solicitor. He intended no give notice to the petitioners that they would be required to substantiate these charges by evidence ; and if they failed within a reasonable time to appear before the Native Affairs Committee, he would then ask the House to support him in moving that the petition be expunged from the records. Mr HURST knew nothing of this petition, but hoped the House would be careful to protect the right of petition by not expunging this one until the Natives interested had been, notified. Mr SHEEHAN courted investigation, and only desired that his accusers should be called on to substantiate their charges. In fact, he would notify them himself to that effect. Hon. Major ATKINSON said the course proposed was fair and reasonable. The House ought to protect its members from aspersions, and if a petition did accuse a member of improper conduct, and if the accusation were one which could be disposed of in a court of law, it would be a salutary course for the House to refuse any such petition. He would now move the adjournment of the matter to give time for the Government to look into this petition, and consider what course should be recommended to the House. Agreed to adjourn the matter till Tuesday next. Mr PEARSON then gave notice to ask the Native Minister whether it was intended to recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission, to inquire into allegations against the New Zealand Native Land Settlement Company, contained in a petition from East Coast natives. TELEPHONE SYSTEM INQUIRY. The report of the Select Committee on the telephone system was laid on the table, ar.d ordered to be printed. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Hon. Mr DICK called the attention of the House to a telegram, apparently sent by Mr Eish to the Dunedin Chamber oE Commerce, and published in a Wellington newspaper last evening, giving information as to what transpired in the sittings of the Telephone Committee. The reason for bringing this under the notice of the House was that some hon. members did not seem to be aware of the impropriety of communicating the proceedings of Select Committees, the rule being that such proceedings were private until reported to the House in due course. He had noticed several irregularities of this kind lately. The present case was not serious, and he did not intend to do more than point out the impropriety. He moved the adjournment of the House. Sir G. GREY submitted there was no impropriety in making a communication of the kind just read. The rule was that evidence given before a Committee should not be made public until reported to the House. It was the practice at Home to admit the Press to Select Committees ; and he contended members of this House ought to be at liberty to.exercise their discretion as to when the proceedings of a Committee could be communicated to the Press with advantage. Mr BARRON asked whether the motion of the Minister should not be one relevant to the question of privilege. The SPEAKER said the proper course was that if a breach of privilege had been committed by a newspaper, a motion should be made calling on the publishers to appear at the bar of the House. It would be a hard case if a member of the House might be charged with a breach of privilege without any proof being furnished to the House. Mr MONTGOMERY submitted that the present motion was irregular. No good result could come of this, and he hoped the matter would drop. Hon. Major ATKINSON said that was the intention. No doubt a breach of privilege had been committed, and it was not desirable that what was going on before Select Committees should be published until reported to the House. He suggested that the motion should now be withdrawn, as the object had been served. Mr SEDDON thought the course pursued by the Minister was a proper one under the circumstances. Mr SHEPHARD doubted whether a breach of privilege had been committed. It was the practice at Home to publish proceedings of Committees. The motion was then withdrawn, DISFRANCHISING PUBLIC SERVANTS.

Mr MITCHELSON asked the Government whether they will, in order to prevent pressure being brought to bear upon members of this House, bring in a Bill this or next session to disfranchise the whole of the Civil servants, railway and other Government employes, throughout the colony ; if not, will they facilitate a private member doing so? Unless some steps were soon taken in this direction, the colony would be ruled by its public servants, as the pressure now brought to bear by them on members of the House was inconvenient, and detrimental to their freedon of action in this House. Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that the question was important, but the Government

had not had it under consideration. The position of public business would preclude any facilities being given to a private member to bring forward such a Bill. Mr SED DON moved the adjournment of the House, and explained that he had been misrepresented in some papers as saying that railway employes should be disfranchised. He hac\ only asked for them to be put on tlie same footing as Civil servants. Mr MOSS seconded, and was sorry to hear the answer given by the Government. iThey ought not to hold out the . slightest encouragement, nor let the possibility be inferred, that the Government would assist, any member in promoting a Bill to disfranchise a large body of Civil servants. The Government should make it clear that they would oppose any such Bill. If they allowed the other inference to be drawn, it would be a plain admission that the central establishment was growing too large for control, and was actually running away with the Government. If they wished to lessen this evil, let them distribute their power and patronage among a number of Boards to be created. That was the true solution. Mr FISH said tlie Government , ought to give no uncertain sound on this question. From the Treasurer’s answer, the House would be justified in believing that the Government were in favor of disfranchising public servants, and would be glad to see some member proposing to do it. Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government had not given any cause or excuse for these remarks. If tlie Opposition chose to convey that impression outside, they could do so. Sir G. GREY did not understand tlie answer of the Government. All that the Treasurer said did hold out an encouragement for any private member to bring in a Bill on the subject next session. It would be a degrading position to put the servants of the country in. If the Government would not say it, the Opposition ought to say they would resist and denounce- any such measure if brought forward. Mr GREEN (Dunedin East) did not understand the Treasurer to at all give countenance to such a measure. It was only right for supporters of the Government to say, on their part, that such a measure would meet with thorough opposition. If these Government employes were to be disfranchised they ought also to be relieved of taxation. Mr HOLMES did not understand the Treasurer to offer any encouragement to such a Bill. Motion for adjournment was then withdrawn. NOVA SCOTIA IMMIGRANTS. Mr MITCHELSON asked the Government, Whether they will reconsider their decision respecting the extension of the present system of immigration to the British colony of Nova Scotia, seeing, from the experience gained during the past thirty years, that the Nova Scotians then introduced have proved themselves to be a most industrious and profitable class of settlers ? Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said this question involved much difficulty, because Nova Scotia was a British colony, and as immigrants were being introduced there, it would not be right to tempt such colonists to emigrate to New Zealand. In the North part of this colony the Nova Scotians bad proved themselves valuable settlers; and as they were taxpayers, they had a claim to have relatives and friends assisted to come to this colony. Relations of those already in the colony might reasonably be assisted to come here; but he would consider the matter more fully. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the adjournment of the House, and complained that equal justice was not being done. No attention should be paid to the Government of Novia Scotia, but the same system of assisted immigration should apply to these settlers in the North, as to other taxpayers. Mr SHEEHAN seconded, and said these settlers in the North of Auckland were among the best in the colony. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON could not understand the necessity of this motion for adjournment, as lie had distinctly stated that the Government recognised their claim as colonists to have assisted immigration, but that there were exceptional difficulties in their case whica needed further consideration. Motion for adjournment was then withdrawn. GRAVEL PITS, ETC. Mr DUNCAN asked the Minister of Lands, If he will hand over all lands reserved for the purposes of gravel and stone quarries, and for watering and quarantine of stock, to the management of the County Council in each district respectively ? Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said the rule was to consider applications from counties on their merits, and there was no objection to consider favorably all applications for reserves relating to the maintenance of roads. Quarantine reserves were somewhat different. PROPERTY TAX AGAIN. Mr DUNCAN asked, If Government will remit the property tax to districts that are now rated for their district railways ? . Hon. Major ATKINSON replied to the question and to some remarks on it. He denied that the Property-tax or the Land-tax was imposed to make up interest on railways. Nor could he see any connection between the. Pro-perty-tax and a rate paid for a local railway which ratepayers had ihade for their own benefit. He could not entertain the proposition for a moment. WAIPAPAPA POINT. Mr FELDWICK asked the Minister of Marine, If he will take steps to provide a temporary light on Waipapapa Point, Southland, pending the completion of the lighthouse now in course of erection there ? Hon. Major ATKINSON added to his reply of yesterday that the work was being pushed on, and the new lighthouse was expected to be finished for use in two months. SHIPPING AND SEAMEN’S ACT. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Minister of Marine, When the Bill amending the Shipping and Seamen’s Act, 1877, which, on the 4th July last, he Btated it was his intention to introduce, will be brought forward? Hon. Major ATKINSON had ordered a Bill to be prepared, but it was not yet ready, owing to pressure of work in the department, and he doubted whether it could be ready for passing this session. SIR A. GORDON’S “MEMORANDUM.” Mr HUTCHISON asked the Government, Whether they intend to afford the House an opportunity of discussing th© papers <?n West Coast native affairs, contained in a return, A—4, laid before the House this session? The papers relating to what was done at Parihaka, especially Sir A. Gordon’s memorandum thereon, ought to be now reviewed in the light of social and historic facts. SPEAKER checked the hon. member as travelling beyond the limits of a question. Mr SEDDON : Ask the question, and then move the adjournment of the House. Mr HUTCHISON said he wanted to bring this memorandum under the notice of the House, and that was the real object of his question. The SPEAKER said the matter appeared to be one for a motion. THE IRISH INFORMERS. Mr PYKE put a further question without

notice, to ascertain if the Government had yet decided to take precautions for preventing the Irish informers from landing here. Hon. Mr DICK said the matter had been considered that morning, but it would be premature to state what steps the Government were now taking. THE OXFORD IMMIGRANTS. Mr DANIEL put a question without notice, as to whether Government were alleviating the condition of the immigrants brought by the ship Oxford. He believed those at the quarantine island were in a miserable condition, and that in the stormy weather there had been scarcity of firewood. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said another member had given him private notice of a similar question. The Government had made inquiry as to clothing and other necessaries, and no doubt there had been considerable want of clothing in consequence of the long voyage and the detention in quarontine. Before these immigrants left England, the Agent-General supplied a certain amount of boots and clothing. Without saying there had been anything like destitution, he believed there had been some inconvenience, and perhaps suffering. The Government had taken steps to remedy this. Already over eighty immigrants had been landed from the island, and were passing away to their friends. Supplies of clothing had also been sent to those remaining on tlie island, contributed through the kindness of the people of Wellington. He believed there had been nothing like destitution, but he could assure hon. members there should be nothing wanting on the part of the Government to supply whatever might be found necessary on further investigation. Quarantine regulations had at first delayed any inquiry, but this difficulty was now removed. As to scarcity of coal and firewood on the island, he had no reason to believe there was any truth in such reports. During the bad weather there had been some discomfort no doubt. THE ESCAPED PRISONER. Mr SEDDON asked the Minister of Justice as to the prisoner O’Brien, who ran away from custody while being conveyed to the South Island for the purpose of being released, whether the further sentence of twelve months’ imprisonment inflicted on him for running away a few hours before his liberation was not too severe, and whether it could not be remitted as an act of clemency ? Hon. Mr CONOLLY said this prisoner had no right to break away as he did, and might have been further committed to penal servitude for so doing. The rule was to convey released prisoners back to the place whence they came before setting them at liberty. This prisoner was being so conveyed, when he foolishly broke away. Hearing his wife and family had removed to Wellington during his imprisonment, the man had some excuse in thinking he ought to be liberated here, instead of being liberated at the place where he was committed. However, it was intended to remit his further sentence, and set him at liberty at the end of a fortnight’s detention, (Hear, hear.) THE NATIVE SLANDERS. Mr SHEEHAN again referred to the slanderous petition against himself, and read a telegram he had prepared for sending to the principal petitioner, informing him that he would be required to appear and give evidence, and that Mr Sheehan would pay his expenses, if that were necessary. SETTLED LAND BILL. This Bill was introduced by the Hon, Mr CONOLLY, and read a first time. THE DARGAVILLE COMMITTEE. Hon. Major ATKINSON postponed till next day a motion for changing one name on the Committee. He would move that Mr Mason (not Mr Fitz Gerald) take the place of Mr Hurst on the Committee. Mr MONTGOMERY said he would ask the House to allow him to be discharged from attendance on this Committee, but would postpone this also till the other motion came up next day. * Hon. Major ATKINSON said this intention to withdraw took him by surprise; but he would consider the hon. gentleman’s desire in that matter, and would be glad to meet his convenience, so far as it could be done. STEAM SERVICE COMMITTEE. Mr DRIVER moved, “ That a Select Committee be appointed, in terms of a resolution passed on the 7th August, to consider proposals for a direct steam service between Great Britainand New Zealand, with power to ealljfor persons and papers, four to form a quorum. The Committee to consist of Hon. Mr Rolleston, Hon.W.W. Johnston, Mr Macandrew, Mr Montgomery, Mr Joyce, Mr Sutton, Mr W. C. Buchanan, Mr Swanson, Mr George, and the mover.” This was agreed to, the Committee to report in a week. Mr FISH desired to add another name, but was told that notice must be given. LOCAL BILLS. The City of Auckland Additional Loans Bill and the Waimate High Schools Bill passed the remaining stages. WELLINGTON HARBOR BILL. In Committee on the Wellington Harbor Board Land and Reclamation Bill, amendments were made, as arranged between Mr C. J. Johnston and the Government, with the object of improving the approach to the Queen’s Wharf, and also securing in precise terms the right of the City Council to lay off a street through a portion of the proposed reclamation. The Bill passed through Committee, and was read a third time and passed. CHATTELS SECURITIES BILE. This Bill (Mr Feld wick’s) was considered in Committee. Clause 7 was struck out as surplusage, the same provision having been already made in the Bankruptcy Bill. Some other amendments were made, and the Bill was reported, read a third time, and passed. EYENING SITTING. House resumed at 7.30 p.m., the galleries being full, in expectation of an important debate. NATIVE LAND BILL. Hon. Mr BRYCE moved the second reading of the Native Land Laws Amendment Bill, and said the object of the Bill was to improve the present mode of dealing with native land. It was in the interest of the colony and of the native race that large tracts of land should . be brought into occupation. It would not be difficult to show that this House and the colony had always been disposed to listen to any claims for justice and consideration on the part of the native race ; and he was sure that in the present debate any claims or arguments for justice to natives would receive due weight. In 1877 an attempt to deal with this subject led to the shipwreck of the then Ministry. In 1860 the Bill brought in was considered a critical Bill, and not unlikely to produce confusion in the ranks of the Government. He had been reproached for that Bill being dropped, a considerable section of Government suporters being against it. That Bill was in one sense on the same lines as the Bill of 1877, it being opposed and approved by the same people who had opposed or approved the previous Bill. Though he had received assurances of support from some members on the opposite side, yet party ties afterwards caused them to withdraw that support. In the present case he was told he might expect considerable support from

members on the other side of the House, but he hoped it would be support of the right kind. The Native Land Court was not doing its work in a satisfactory way, for various reasons ; but he would not blame that Court in an unqualified way for its comparative failure. Great difficulties must be dealt with in ascertaining the native title to land, on account of its complicated character. In constituting a Court with Judges, they had gone too far, and it would have worked better if these had been called Commissioners. He referred to the complicated claims of families, of tnbe3, and ether complications resulting from conquest, and said land bad to be divided according to these several claims in an extraordinary manner. Another difficulty consisted in the attempts to purchase native lands before the title was ascertained. The Chief Judge of the Court was of opinion that these unlawful attempts to purchase lands were the cause of 19-20ths of the trouble ill/ Native Land Courts. The theory of the law was that persons should wait until the title had been determined ; but it had been argued that, if this were strictly insisted on, the natives would not bring their land before the Court at all. He described the manner in which lands came before the Court. A purchaser got a few of the alleged owners to get an order of the Court for the land to be surveyed, and a lien for the expenses of survey was thus set up. But it did not follow that the three natives who might make this first bargain were the only or the principal owners, and eventually another section of the owners had to appear before the Court, and employ a lawyer. There might be a dozen or a score of different sections of natives claiming ownership of a block, and each section employed its lawyer, not only to establish the claim of that section, but to upset the claim of some or all the other sections claiming ownership. In the struggle that went on, the case would be protracted to an undue length, and the expenses of lawyers and sometimes of Maori sections became very large. All this flowed from the attempt of parties to make bargains for purchase before the title was ascertained. Commercially speaking, the expenses would fall on the native owners; but it happened that some of the buyers were not bona fide purchasers, but only speculators seeking to get possession of land in order to form a Company for buying their acquired rights. The pre.-emptive right had been removed because the whole feeling of the colony seemed at the time to be in favor of that course. Sir G. Grey bad restored that pre-emptive right after a time ; but in fact people ignored that, and went on purchasing, as they did to this day. In most cases the Maoris faithfully kept their bargains; yet it was no credit to Europeans to go on ignoring the law as they had done. After waiving the pre-emptive right, Commissioners were appointed to compete with the public in purchasing-native land. That system did not work well, the system being abused so much that the Government had to put an end to it. Government still had the power to exclude competition wherever they chose to proclaim a certain block. But private purchasers- went on bidding against the Government, because no penalty attached. The Natives found it a hardship to be prohibited from dealing with private purchasers, and much grievance resulted. When the present Government came into office, he found . that enormous liabilities had been entered into ; and be proceeded to wind up such bargains as *eemed desirable to be carried out, the others being abandoned. He had practically initiated no new bargains. Yet it was extremely difficult to stop private purchases. A lawyer would undertake to carry a case through the Court, nominally for the Maoris ; receiving a large retainer, and a daily refresher. Yet the same lawyer who appeared in Court for natives would at the same time be making arrangements for the purchase of the same land for Europeans, who would also pay him for that work. Thus the same lawyer was practically acting for both sides. . This increased the inconvenience of ascertaining native title. The restoration of the pre-emptive right to the Crown would effectually do away with these evils ; and he believed the natives would approve of that course. Yet, if this change were now made, dissatisfaction would soon grow up, for evident reasons. It would be absurd to prevent natives from selling to Europeans, while the Government refused at the same time to purchase. Then as to preventing private bargains, many of them had been fairly made, and it would be a task of extreme difficulty for a Royal Commission to inquire into all these cases. Therefore he could not recommend the restoration of the pre-emptive right without also recommending concurrent purchase by the Crown, As a middle course he submitted this Bill, which he hoped would remove the evils ; but if it failed to do so, he would be prepared in a future session to propose . the restoration of the pre-emptive right to the Crown. The Bill proposed to simplify the Court procedure, by leaving the proof of title to Maoris themselves, excluding Europeans from the Court. On the whole,, he believed this would cause the least dissatisfaction, and would secure justice in the cheapest and speediest manner. The Court might also ascertain the ownership without strict legal formalities. The Court could adjourn cases from time to time and from place to place. No negotiation was to be made till after a day to be proclaimed in the Gazette,, under a penalty, and he believed this prohibition would be effective. Another Bill, called the Native Committees Bill, would follow this one, to enable Native Committees to make inquiry, as to title, with a view to assisting the Native Land Court in arriving at a proper decision in investigatihg titles. (Applause.)

Mr DE LAUTOUR said the Native Minister had, if anything, understated his ease. This House might have always had the inclination to do justice to the native race, yet the result of interference in native affairs had been a succession of plundering and blundering. The attempt to set up the individual right of the Maori was the first mischievous encroachment on tribal rights. But the House soon afterwards confiscated large areas, on the principle that because some [natives had sinned all must suffer. The Government constituted itself the judge, saying that in consequence of Government blundering, certain tribes had rebelled, and for that rebellion the Government confiscated the lands of the whole district. A saving clause in the Act of 1863 provided compensation for those Maoris who had taken no part in the war. They were to claim compensation within six months ; and how could natives in the interior learn of those proclamations, and corne to a Court within six months ? In that way much injustice was done. In 1865 an Act was passed to individualise the title* not more than ten trustees to hold aneg block for a tribe. These trustees managed in. some cases to mortgage the land for stores, and for rum. The agents of the then Government did not scruple to share in the plunder of native land under that Act. The scandal became so great, that another Act was passed in 18.67”, requiring all owners to be registered in the Court. Then followed a more comprehensive Act in 1873, the principle being maintained that transactions prior to ascertainment of title were void ; also, that after such ascertainment of title, the certificate of title would not be valid without securing the agreement of

every owner. Much litigation was caused by some one or more natives interested in a block withholding assent, generally through the mischievous intervention of Europeans. Ihe Native Land Settlement Company was started on the East Coast in ISSI, the principle being that the natives should put in then’ land, and Europeans should contribute working capital, the Company to act in the interest of both for cutting up and settling the land. Since that time about 100,000 acres had been assigned to the Company, and it now held oyer 50,000 acres of freehold land, the value being about LIIO.OOO. This land was near Gisborne, and was nearly all available for settlement, lho only land sold by this Company was about 5000 acres, whereas it was supposed to have sold enormous tracts. Still in the course of a few months 90,000 acres would have been made ready for sale and settlement. What encouragement had the Company received at the hands of the Government ? The House had seen for themselves only a few days ago. Such voluntary agencies would be useful if scattered over the North Island. Parliament was a rough machine to deal with practical interests of which little or nothing was known. The Maori members in that House had repeatedly confessed that they were powerless for good. We (the Europeans) were legislating that night for preserving other people’s property for our use. He would like to have seen the Native Minister taking this great question in hand more firmlyand at an an earlier date. If practising solicitors were to be excluded from the Court in questions of division of title, that would not work ; but to exclude them from the ascertainment of title was a proper provision. The real difficulty in the future of the North Islan was as to how it was ever to be opened up. It was a most promising country to open, yet most difficult to be opened. The South Island was our granary, and the North would be the meat market of Great Britain. The fringe of the country was locked up in leases, and the interior was held by natives. He calculated all the money spent in opening up the South Island, in roads and railways, amounted to seventeen millions sterling. In the North Island about seven millions had been spent. To give the North equal facilities for settlement would require at least fifteen millions more. If the South had the lead of the North now, what would be the difference in five years’ time ? • Why, the North would be under the heel of the South; and then let the North call upon its gods for help. The money required for purchasing the native lands in the North Island was not the real difficulty, but the money to open up the land. The present Bill would net work in one respect, for clause 10 offered a bonus for speculation, and the agent would run the gauntlet, being protected by his principal in the event of detection. No money penalty would do it. Imprisonment only would prevent such dealing with land before the title was ascertained. He would assist the Minister in the two objects of the Bill—to prevent dealing with land before ascertainment of title, and to exclude lawyers from the ascertainment of title. This Bill would do more practical good than the Native Minister’s harlequinade through the King Country, by the grace of God and the permission of Wahanui. (Laughter.) Mr TAWHAI said he liked the Bill for one reason, because it would bring to light the many sins done in the past. Everybody had sinned, including lawyers and members of this House. Europeans, so full of wisdom and knowledge, became the lawbreakers, by not respecting the law which prohibited dealing with native land before the title was ascertained. The same could not be said against the Maoris. The Europeans broke the treaty of Waitangi ; and it was only now, in this Bill, that they had anything approaching the treaty of Waitangi. He agreed it would be better for the Government to assume the pre-emptive right as being in accordance with the treaty of Waitangi. He read to the House the second article of that treaty, setting forth that the Queen guaranteed to the Maoris their lands and properties, but the Maoris yielded to Her Majesty the pre-emptive right of purchasing such land, if necessary. The assembled chiefs agreed to that compact, but the Parliament and the European people had never recognised that treaty. This Bill being very much like the treaty of Waitangi, he would support it. He liked it also because it excluded lawvors from the Native Land Court. Having been Assessor of the Court, he knew that cases could be got through at the rate of ten a week, without trouble, in the absence of lawyers ; whereas recently at Cambridge, where the Court sat two or three months, very few cases were got through because lawyers were engaged in them. He objected to one point in the Bill— the imposition of a penalty of LSOO for breaking any provision of the Act. In case of individuals possessing three or four million pounds, they would think nothing of such a penalty. If any one breaking the law were to be imprisoned at least two months, the wealthy law-breakers would not be so ready to break the law. (Applause). The debate was continued by Messrs Moss, Sutton, Shaw, Colonel Trimble, Buchanan, Macdonald, Stevens, and Watt. Mr HTJRSTHOUSE moved the adjournment of the debate till next day. Agreed to. House adjourned at 12.43 till Friday afternoon. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. FRIDAY, AUG GST 10. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. TAIABOA LAND BILL. Mr MANTELL moved the second reading of this Bill, which was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday next. PAYMENT OF MEMBERS. Mr PHARAZYN moved, “That in the opinion of this Council, the honorarium to members should cease at the expiry of the present Parliament, and that, in the event of this Chamber becoming an elective body, and a Bill being introduced for the payment of members, the honorarium should not exceed LI per diem for a period of three months only, and that members resident in or near Wellington should not receive any honorarium for their attendance during the session. He was actuated, by two motives in bringing forward the motion standing in his name, one being that he had been grossly insulted by the seconder of the motion he had brought forward on the previous week. The SPEAKER ruled the hon. gentleman out of order.

Mir PHARAZYN would refrain from alluding further to the insult he had been subjected to by the hon. gentleman he had alluded to, and would merely content himself with quoting from a leading article in the New Zealand Herald of July 28th, by which it would appear that the Council did not see themselves as others saw them. [The hon. member here read the article referred to, amidst several interruptions from hon.' members and ironical cheers.] He remarked that, although he was strongly in favor of doing away absolutely with the honoraria of members of either branch of the Legislature ; yet, as that step appeared to be impossible at present, he should do the best he could in the direction he had in view, and

with that object he had brought down his motion. If some effort were not made to reduce the honoraria of hon. members, the country would probably be called upon shortly to pay the members of the General Assembly L3OO per year. The state of the country did not warrant the payment of the honoraria, at any rate for the next five years to come. (Ironical cheers.) The hon. gentleman referred to the House of Commons, the members of which he said spent thousands of pounds at each election for the honor of representing their fellow-countrymen. In South Australia and New South Wales there was no payment «f members, and why, he asked, should the present system continue after the present session. Mr CAMPBELL seconded the motion pro O SixG. S. WHITMORE regretted the hon. gentleman had again brought the subject under discussion. The hon. gentleman was the very last member who should have brought the subject before the Council, and the hon. gentleman only had himself to blame if the matter of honorarium should become unfavorably discussed in the public Press. Personally, he (Sir G. Whitmore) desired to say that the time, if it had not already .arrived, yet was rapidly approaching, when it was desirable that the Legislative Council should be elective instead of nominative. But he mentioned that the members were fully entitled to be reimbursed for their services. It had been urged that the Council was the representative of wealth, but he combatted that assertion ; for, on looking round that Chamber, he failed to see many wealthy men, or, at any rate, hon. gentlemen who were sufficiently wealthy to be able to give up their time to attending to public business. Hon. members of the Council had been placed where they were to calmly and.dispassionately watch the progress of measures initiated generally in another place, and it did not matter a bit whether the individual members of the Council were wealthy or otherwise, as they received their honoraria for work performed, and they were elected by the representatives of the people, and consequently possessed the confidence of the country. Dr. GRACE said that the question of receiving the honorarium had never entered into his thoughts when he first was honored with a seat in the Council, when no honorarium existed. He had accepted the honorarium, and had devoted it to the best of his judgment, but he did not think that hon. members who resided in Wellington should receive the same amount as hon. members residing at a distance, and perhaps members of the Council were scarcely entitled to the same amount as were members of the House of Representatives. Mr ROBINSON thought that the question of the constitution of the Council should be determined at once. The hon. gentleman who had moved the motion had stated that the Council was the representative of the wealthy classes, but in the next breath Mr Pharazyn contradicted this statement. That hon. gentleman’s name was not on the electoral roll. Mr PHARAZYN : Yes it is.

Mr ROBINSON would admit the truth of the statement, but how did it appear ? Provisionally and conditionally only, and it might be erased, and fines and other penalties, even including imprisonment, might be imposed upon the hon. member. The hon. gentleman had steered himself clear of rocks and shoals with remarkable shrewdness, and in doing so he had proved himself to be a very clever man. He believed that if the Council did away with the honorarium, they would remove from the field certain hon. gentlemen who could ill be spared, and whose loss would be disastrous to the country, as they would be compelled to retire from the Chamber, and thus all classes throughout would fail to be represented in the Council. The Council, as a nominative Chamber, was, he maintained, as purely representative as was the House of Representatives. Mr RICHMOND, as an amendment, moved the following; “To omit all the words after ‘ that,’ and insert, 1 this Council defers the discussion on the question of honorarium to its members until the proposals of the Government with regard to the Council are under consideration.’ ”

Mr NURSE seconded the motion. Mr SCOTLAND had listened with the greatest disgust to the gross personalities which had been showered upon the Hon. Mr Pharazyn, and he felt humiliated at the discussion of honorarium altogether. The motion just now was ill-advised, and was an ad misericordiam appeal, and certainly the hon. member was the last person who should have brought the motion forward, as he should have left the task to a poorer member. He would point out that the hon. gentlemanneed not receivehis honorarium. Speaking for himself, he (Mr Scotland) should not refuse the honorarium, but he did not come there for the money he received; he csme there as a legislator, as between wealth and poverty, and if there was no honorarium ha should still retain his seat, and do his best in the interests of all classes. In democratic America, members of Congress were paid, and who was he that he should refuse payment. The discussion was continued by Mr Mantell, Col. Brett, Mr Acland, and Mr Reynolds, when the Council divided on the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the motion, with the following result: — Ayes, 4; noes, 25. The amendment was negatived on the voices, the rejection having the effect of leaving nothing of the original motion except the word “ that ” in the first line. The result was received with loud cheers and laughter. SCHOOL COMMITTEES ETECTION BILL. Mr MENZIEB moved the second reading of this Bill, and, in doing so, explained that the Bill provided for minorities in the country being represented on Committees. Mr OLIVER regretted that the Bill had not been matured, and expressed a wish that the matter had been left till the Government had brought in a Bill dealing with the subject. The Bill would have the effect of leaning most unjustly upon Catholics, Jews, and secularists, and for this reason he hoped the Council would reject the motion. Only very recently'a somewhat similar measure had been brought down in the French Legislature by the Gambetta Government, and had it not been withdrawn very probably a revolution would have resulted.

Sir G. S. WHITMORE opposed the motion for the second reading, as he believed the Bill would have the effect of disfranchising the minority. Dr. POLLEN said that if the Bill was not amended materially when in Committee, he should take an opportunity of endeavoring to dispose of it at a later stage. MrLAHMANN objected to the present system of cumulative voting, which had proved a thorough failure, and for that reason he should vote for the motion.

Captain BAILLIE presumed that as about 400 School Committees out of the 768 Committees in the colony had not objected to the present system of School-Committee election, they were perfectly satisfied with the present system. He should like to see a capitation allowance for schools, and indeed he should like to see the State impose a small quarterly fee for each pupil attending State schools, as if this course were pursued, the schools would be more highly appreciated. He would move the

adjournment of the debate till next Tuesday. Motion agreed to. The Council, at 4.50, adjourned till Tuesday next. HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. FRIDAY, AUGUST 10. The Speaker took his seat at 2.30 p.m. THE IRISH INFORMERS. Hon. Major ATKINSON said that, with reference to the question which had been asked about the Irish informers, the Government had been in communication with the Governments of New South Wales and Great Britain. A telegram had just been received by the Governor from Earl Derby, to the effect that arrangements had been made to return the Irish informers, and that full particulars would be despatched shortly. (Hear, hear). LAND TRANSFER DELAYS. Mr STEWARD asked the Colonial Treasurer whether his attention has been directed to the vexatious and often long-con-tinued delays which now occur in the conduct of operations under the Land Transfer Act, resulting in the detention of deeds, in some instances, for several years ; and, if so, whether he will cause measures to be taken to remedy this inconvenient state of things ? Hon. Major ATKINSON had certain cases of local delays brought under his notice, and inquiries were being made. Mr STEWARD said there appeared to be some general defect. DUTY OH SUGAR. Mr HOBBS asked whether the Government will, with a view to assist the local industries of fruit-preserving and jam-making, submit a proposal to this House to admit sugar free of duty ? He said the Government of Tasmania had just resolved to reduce the duty on sugar a halfpenny a iiound. Hon. Major ATKINSON could not hold out any hope of reducing the duty on sugar. A Select Committee had made a recommendation on the subject; and at present there would be no difficulty in getting a drawback on any sugar used in manufacturing jam, &c., for export. ALIENATION OF LAND. Mr STEWARD asked whether the Government intend to proceed with the Alienation of Land Bill; and, in the event of a negative reply to the foregoing, whether he will intimate to the House the reasons for the abandonment for the second time of a measure which has been hitherto put forward as one of the leading features of the Ministerial policy ? • Major ATKINSON said Government did intend to deal with this question. Though some delay was caused through waiting for a measure which had been brought before the British Parliament, dealing with the same subject, a Bill had been introduced the previous day, entitled the Settled Land Bill, which dealt with this question. LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES. Mr J. W. THOMSON asked whether the Government,have recently advanced any money, by way of loan, to any local body or local bodies out of any of the trust or other funds ? Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that no advances had been made to any local body during the current year. Three applications were now before the Sinking Fund Commissioners, and they had agreed to one of them; the others had not been yet dealt with. NATIVES AND THE LAND COMPANY. Mr PEARSON asked whether it is the intention of the Government to advise the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the allegations concerning the New Zealand Native Land Settlement Company, which allegations were contained in a petition presented to the House by the Native Minister, on 10th July last, and published in Hansard ? He did not ask this question out of any hostility to the Company, but the allegations ought to be inquired into in order to put an end to rumors on the subject. Hon Mr BRYCE understood that two libel actions were pending in connection with this matter ; and if that were true, it would not be desirable to appoint a Committee to enquire into matters which might come before a court of law. Nor was it convenient for him to express any opinion at present. MU DARGAVILLE AND THE TIMES. Mr DARGA VILLE rose to put a question without notice. He read a paragraph from the New Zealand Time 3 of Tuesday, setting forth a certain course which the Select Committee appointed on his case were expected to take with a view of first determining what were the particular charges made by Mr Dargaville against the Premier and the Treasurer. Having read that from a journal which was generally regarded as the official organ of the Government, he wanted to know whether that was really the programme to be submitted to the Committee ; because if so, it ought to be generally known. Hon/Major ATKINSON hardly felt called on to answer this. He was not at all aware that thfe journal referred to was the Government organ, and he supposed this was like many other statements made on the Opposition side. With regard to the programme that the Committee would follow, he presumed that would rest with the Committee to decide for themselves. (Laughter.) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS—END OF THE SESSION. Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday afternoon at 2.30, to consider Government business only. It was intended to go on with the Estimates in Committee of Supply on Monday, and for several days. He hoped that by making good progress with Supply, as the Government expected to do, there would he nothing to prevent the necessary business being finished by the end of the month, if hon. members so desired. There were a large number of Bills on the Order Paper, many of them brought in by hon. members ; but he thought most of the Bills might very well stand over till another session. Some few measures which were deemed of importance, the Government would ask the House to pass. The motion was agreed to without remark. STEAM SERVICE COMMITTEE. Mr LARNACH desired to move the addition of Mr Fish to this Committee, there being no representative of Dunedin port on the Committee. Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped this would not be pressed, as Dunedin was well reprei sented on it already by members closely connected with that port. Mr LARNACH would not press his motion. PRINTING EVIDENCE. SPEAKER said it was reported to him that several Select Committees were getting a large amount of evidence printed, to the inconvenience of the department. As those Committees had not obtained leave of the House to do so, he suggested that they should first apply for leave. QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE. Mr GREEN (Dunedin East) wished to bring before the House a matter of privilege relating to a certain extract from the Dunedin Temperance HeraM, recently read in the House, reflecting on Bellamy’s as a Parliamentary institution. Mr DARGAVILLE rose to say that the hon. member who had formerly raised this question, Mr S. T. George, was not in hie place at that moment.

SPEAKER thought the matter should be brought up only when the hon. member referred to was in his place. Mr GREEN postponed the matter. THE DARGAVILLE AFFAIR.

Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that Mr Hurst be discharged from the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the charges made by the hon. member for Auckland City West, Mr Dargaville, against the Premier and the Colonial Treasurer, and that Mr Mason be substituted.

Mr SEDDON said the hon. member proposed was a strong party man, having always voted with the Government. This question would be decided on party lines, and he objected to a decided party man being put on. Hon. Major ATKINSON objected to that statement. ‘

Mr SEDDON said it might not be pleasant, but it was truthful. Mr Fitz Gerald had received a slight by having his name first suggested by the Treasurer in his notice of motion, and then withdrawn without explanation. He would move that Mr Swanson be placed on the Committee of lieu of Mr Hurst. SPEAKER said this could now be done only with the unanimous consent of the House, as notice had not been given. Hon. Major ATKINSON could not consent to the change in the terms of his motion. Mr SEDDON asked the Treasurer to postpone his motion, to give time for notice of an amendment.

Captain MORRIS defended the Committee from the aspersion of partisanship. Mr BATHGATE said the inquiry to be made by this Committee was altogether a mistake. From the constitution of the Committee, four being selected from one side and three from the other, the selection had evidently been made on party lines, and its finding could not command the confidence of the country. The Treasurer needed no vindication beyond the fact that he commanded the confidence of a majority in the House. SPEAKER interposed to check these remarks as irregular. Mr BATHGATE said it would be far better if the Treasurer would at once admit the inquiry was a mistake, and move that the Committee be discharged. Hard words were expected in that House, but members, and even Ministers, should give and take. There was such a thing as insensible bias, and they knew that some members voted for the Government against their own convictions. SPEAKER again said this had no bearing on the substitution of one name for another. Mr J. C. BROWN said the Committee could not conclude its labors by the end of the month, when the Treasurer said the session was to end. This Committee would have to be followed by a Royal Commission. There were at present three and three on the Committee, and that was fair.

Mr FITZGERALD said, by way of personal explanation, that when his name was first mentioned in connection with the Committee, he was not consulted at all. He had a strong dislike to serve on the Committee, but regarded it as a duty to serve if called on. During the few following days, several members spoke to him, including Mr Dargaville, and said they would object very strongly to his being on the Committee. (Mr Dargaville ■. “ Hear, hear.”) Mr Seddon had told him he had heard members say that he (Mr FitzGerald) had stated it was a very good job for Mr Dargaville that he (Mr F.) was not on that Committee. Now that was entirely untrue, and the informant’s name ought to have been given. The member for Tuapeka stated that the Government had a good reason for withdrawing his name from the Committee. The Treasurer afterwards told him there was likely to he opposition to his being put on the Committee. His reply was that he was equally ready to serve or not to serve, as a matter of duty. This afternoon, it had been imputed that he was such a strong supporter of the Government, that he could not be trusted to do his duty on this Committee. He must deny it, for he knew no difference between personal and political honesty. So far from being a strong party man, he had voted with independence, and not unfrequently against the Government. Mr SEDDON rose to make a personal explanation. He had thought he was only doing his duty to inform Mr Fitz Gerald, as a friend, of the rumor that was current respecting his supposed bias, and told him what that rumor was.

' Mr FITZGERALD said lie had remarked, in the presence of others, in reference to a similar question, that perhaps on the whole it was a good thing there should be party lines, because in case of an adverse judgment against an hon. member, a minority would have sufficient influence to soften down a party judgment so given. Whether that was the statement which had caused the rumor as to his declared bias against Mr Dargaville, he could not say, and he supported the member who mentioned the rumor to him might possibly have originated it.

Mr SEDDON again rose to make a personal explanation. He had just been charged with having originated the rumor which he mentioned to Mr Fitz Gerald as a true friend. From this time forward his friendship with that hon. gentleman was gone.

Mr MONTGOMERY had no personal objection to Mr Mason. He wished now to ask the House to allow himself to be discharged from attendance on this Committee. He knew the House could compel a member to serve on a Committee, and that a member should bow to its wish ; but having expressed an opinion in the House against this mode of procedure he hoped the Treasurer would see sufficient reason for his sot being required to act on the Committee.

Mr FULTON thought too much was being said about the party lines on which the Committee was selected. It was the almost invariable practice that whichever side of the House nominated a Committee, that side should have the majority. Mr Dargaville had himself proposed a Committee which was composed on that principle. Mf TURNBULL cited the precedent of the Committee appointed to investigate the opening of telegrams. All the divisions in that inquiry were 4 to 3, representing exactly the party composition of the Committee. The present was as much a party question as it could be, and the plain fact should be faced. Mr FISH agreed that it was customary for the side which nominated a Committee to have a majority on it. In the present ease, two gentlemen were on their trial, and one of them, the Treasurer, had nominated a Committee to try his own case. That Committee was selected so as to give him a party majority in the decision it might arrive at. , The country would laugh that decision to scorn ; and the charges against the Treasurer would still remain unrebutted, and he would remain unwhitewashed. If the allegations were to be fairly discussed and fairly decided, a majority from the Opposition side would have been chosen, or the two sides of the Committee would have been equal, or, still better, the seventh member to hold the balance even would have been an impartial gentleman like the Speaker of the House. He had no doubt what the verdict wouldbe, but it would be held in utter scorn by the people. They were the great tribunal to which Mr Dargaville could appeal against the party verdict of a Committee. When one’s

honor was attacked, and fair justice was desired, a jury comprising a majority of partisans would not be chosen. Enough had been said, and the question should now be disposed of.

Mr HURST said the last speaker had given his decision, and apparently nothing more was to be said. But that member’s decision did not close the question. It was to be hoped a Committee of this House, even if chosen on party lines, would do fair justice, as he believed it would in this cause. A part of the o. iginal charge had been withdrawn. Mr DARGAVILL IS said he had been accused of withdrawing his assertions. If that was allowed to be said, he would have to reply. SPEAKER did not understand the hon. member to say that. Mr HURST repeated that portion of the charge, that of passing the Act of 1867, had been withdrawn.

Mr DARGAVILLE did not make that charge * gainst the Treasurer, and, therefore, did not withdraw it.

SPEAKER again interposed to call on members to keep to the motion before the House.

Mr HUTCHISON moved that the debate be adjourned. This Committee ought to be so constituted as to be above reproach, and he moved the adjournment in order that due notice might be given for the name of Mr Swanson to be put on the Committee in place of that of Mr Hurst.

Major HARRIS seconded the amendment. If there were innocence in this matter, why not let an independent Committee be appointed ? Mr SWANSON said he was already on several Committees, and had been summoned to attend three Committees that day. He would be glad to be relieved from this Committee ; but if appointed on it, and if two or more Committees were sitting at the same time, he could not be expected to leave them in order to give preference to this Committee. Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped the House would decide the matter now. He had made every effort to get a Committee that would be acceptable to both sides of the House. He told the Opposition whip (Mr Steward) that he desired a list of names, so that the composition of the Committee might be agreed to on both sides. The Opposition whip consulted his chiefs, and took much trouble in the matter ; but eventually stated that his chiefs declined to give any names, and would not agree to the matter being referred to a Committee. Then, after a Committee was appointed,*'l after giving notice of motion to substitute .uTr Fitz Gerald’s name for that of Mr Hurst, ihe again saw the Opposition whip, and suggested to him certain names, and the whip went to consult his chiefs. Yesterday the whip intimated that no personal objection would be raised to the name of Mr Mason, in lieu of Mr Fitz Gerald’s name, to which some objection had been raised, and the whip also said his leader, Mr Montgomery, objected to any Committee at all, and would render no assistance. For the trouble which the Opposition whip had taken on this and other matters, to facilitate necessary arrangements, the Major begged to thank him publicly. (Ministerial applause.) The Major had always found the Opposition whip an honest man, who always adhered to his word. He had told the whip he could not agree to any fancy way of appointing a Committee. The whip replied that he had seen his chiefs, who could not submit any names, as they were going to propose some other way of dealing with the matter. He hoped the House would not agree to the adjournment, but would adopt his motion. Mr STEWARD said he had not desired to take part in this discussion because his name was on the list of the Committee. It was true that the Treasurer had, through him, communicated with the leaders of the Opposition. But a 3 to a derisive cheer from Mr Seddon, which seemed to imply that, in his capacity as Opposition whip he had endeavored to make things pleasant for the Government, he must say that no man in this House claimed to be more loyal to his party ;|that under no circumstances had he deviated one, single inch from what he considered to be straight party lines. When the Opposition asked him to assist them in the difficult and often unpleasant position of whip, he felt he was simply discharging a duty to the party, which was not one to be coveted. He said distinctly that, throughout this Parliament, so far from making matters improperly smooth for the Government, he had done his best to secure success to his party. (Applause.) Still, he recognised the courtesies of party warfare ; and unless his leaders were prepared to fight fairly and in a gentlemanly way, they could not depend on his assistance. If it was to be understood that because one was a strong party man, he was not to extend to his opponents the ordinary courtesies, then he declined to have anything to do with political parties. The statements made by the Treasurer were perfectly correct. As to the suggestion that the Committee should be appointed in some other way, Hon. Major ATKINSON had understood him to say it was the Whip’s leader who said that.

Mr STEWARD said he did not tell the Treasurer that it was suggested on two occasions that Mr Dargaville should appoint one half the Committee and the Government the other half, the questiofi of the Chairman being a moot point. The Treasurer did n«Jt see his way to accept that. As to filling up the blank in the Committee, Mr Dargaville did say he would make no objection on personal grounds to Mr Mason, and that fact was communicated to the Treasurer. He also told him that Mr Montgomery reserved to himself the right to traverse the whole question as to whether a Committee should be appointed or not. He also told the Treasurer that morning that there was some desire to have Mr 1 Swanson’s name proposed instead of Mr Mason’s. Mr SEDDON rose to remark that he did give a derisive “hear, hear,” and meant it in the sense that Mr Steward had taken it. In party warfare, he believed in honorable conduct, but he believed in fighting ; and he must say there could not be opposition if they were to continue in their present position. As regarded Mr Steward’s whipping, it was confined to a certain portion of the party, and had not given much satisfaction to himself, nor to some other members, who were openly expressing their dissatisfaction. For himself, he was dissatisfied.

SPEAKER said these remarks were outside the immediate question. Mr SEDDON was not aware that Mr Montgomery had consented to Mr Mason’s name being proposed, but if he had done so he ought to have got up and said so. If not, he (Mr Seddon) and others were in a false position. That was because they were kept in the dark as to what was being done on behalf of the party. If that was a party, or if that was party fighting, he had done with it. They had seen that the Government had assisted in the passing of certain private members' Bills ; that in this way favors were conferred ; and that was not satisfactory to himself and others. He must say he was thoroughly dissatisfied with the position of affairs. Mr MONTGOMERY had never consented that any person should be appointed on the Committee, and when he said he would raise no objection on personal grounds, it was an

error to infer that he agreed to any particular name. When he was appointed to the position of leader of the Opposition, and when he got Mr Steward to act as whip, he thought he was doing a good thing for the party and for the House generally, because as whip lie would be honorable and above a trick—(hear, hear) and at the same time would be true to ms party. In getting a man of that high class, it was of importance not only to the party, but to the House generally. He was sure his lion, friend had done nothing in this House that he would be afraid to show to the world ; and Mr Montgomery was proud to be associated with him in the party,- and could not allow that Mr Steward had sacrificed the interests of the party one atom to make things more pleasant for the Government. If he did so, it would render him unfit for the high and honorable position he occupied. It was evident that if some confidence was not to be placed in the chiefs of the party, there could be no party at all. If there was not some confidence in him as a chief, he would take the position of an independent member of this House. It was not necessary or convenient to call a caucus of the party on every matter that took place. Mr J. C. BROWN said that, if the Opposition whip had a fault, it was that of expediency. He supported adjournment of the debate. Mr JOYCE supported the adjournment, and if sine die, so much the better. Stronger things had been said in the British Parliament, and he went on to quote a passage from pute between Charles James lox and Lord Brougham ; but he was called.to order as going outside the question of substituting one name for another on the Committee. Mr MACANDREW was ashamed of the position into which the House had drifted on this question. He felt every satisfaction with the conduct of the Opposition whip. Mr PISH said the Opposition whip need not feel complimented by the Treasurer’s praises, for the Treasurer’s crafty purpose was to insult the Opposition chief by complimenting the Opposition whip. The move was palpable and discreditable. In IS7O the Treasurer and his colleagues of the preceding Ministry were charged by Sir George Grey with direct personal corruption. Hon. Major ATKINSON asked if this was not going outside the question. SPEAKER thought the hon. member was not speaking to the question of substituting one name for ar other. Mr PISH was allowed to show that his argument was relevant. In 1878, although the charges made were much more serious, a Committee was asked for, and it was refused by a majority of sixteen. That was a matter in which the personal honor of a member was at stake, yet a Committee was refused. SPEAKER could not see the bearing of this on the present question. Mr PISH said the present would be a party question, the verdict would be a party one, and all else could sink into insignificance. Mr SHEEHAN said one practical result of discussing the great Dargaville question was to show the high and honorable conduct of the Opposition whip. The Treasurer would, perhaps, like to win him over to the Government side. Hon. Major ATKINSON : I should be very glad to see him there. Mr SHEEHAN said it was time this comedy was played out. Mr Dargaville should get up even now, and say he had no intention to impute personal dishonor. Mr DARGAVILLE entirely dissented from the whole proceeding. Whatever verdict the Committee might find, he cared not, but awaited the decision of the House and the country. As to the suggestion that he should disclaim any intention to impute personal dishonor, he must say the House was in the dark as to the whole question. SPEAKER interposed to stop irrelevant reMr DARGAVILLE would content himself with protesting against this mode of procedure; and would finally declare that he had not imputed personal corruption or personal dishonor either to the Premier or the Treasurer, and that if his words could have been so construed, he would straightforwardly have withdrawn that imputation. Division was then challenged on the amendment for adjournment; but, after ringing the bell, this was negatived on the voices. The Treasurer’s motion for substituting Mr Mason’s name on the Committee in lieu of Mr Hurst’s was next agreed to without a division. This ended the matter. CHATTELS SECURITIES BILL.

Thi3 Bill (Mr Feldwick’s) was reported as amended, and was read a third time and passed.

LAND LAWS AMENDMENT.

Mr HCJRSTHOUSE resumed the adjourned debate on the Hon. Mr Bryce’s motion for second reading of the Native Land Laws Amendment Bill. After some historical references, he said the method of purchase as between the Government and native owners had removed some flagrant evils which existed in the system prior to 1860, when only the chiefs and leading members of a tribe got the purchase money. It had been a great mistake to give up the Crown’s pre-emptive right; and he believed there was no middle course, for either the Crown must have the sole right of purchase, or there should be free trade in land. He denied that lawyers were fairly chargeable with most of the evils of the Land Court system, and said this charge against them was not substantiated by the evidence of the Chief Judge or Judge Puckey. It appeared from this evidence that while the presence of one lawyer would be . j useful to a Judge, yet the presence of two /*• lawyers, opposing each other, was not a blessing. Still he could not-see how Natives could properly conduct their own cases where the title was complicated. There ought to be more Judges of the Native Land Court, but the Government seemed to have a difficulty in finding persons suitably qualified. What would be the effect of the Bill on native lands which had been declared goldfields ? In such cases the land had not been put through the Land Court. In other cases Europeans held lands from Maoris' in Nelson district, the titles not having passed through the Court, and it would probably be easiest to exempt all native lands in the South Island from the Bill, confining it to the North Island. The extortionate fees of lawyers were paid generally byEuropean purchasers. He would support Mr Stevens’ amending clause, of which notice had been given, to prevent the penalties in the Bill from being retrospective. House adjourned for dinner. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. BELLAMY’S AND TEETOTALLERS. Mr GREEN (Dunedin East) again rose to call attention to a statement in the Temperance Herald, that some members did not pay their bills at Bellamy’s. This had been quoted to the House on a previous day by Mr S. T. George, who said the statement was entirely false. Mr George’s denial was that the Temperance Herald had since been charged with downright falsehood. During last session a memo, by the Controller-General stated that £444 193 5d were accounts due by members to Bellamy’s. If Mr George had explained this

discrepancy, the full facts would have made the matter clearer than the memorandum left it. He understood the explanation was that these amounts were owing at the. end of the session, but the accounts were Ipaid during the recess. At the request of the editor of the Temperance Herald, he now made this explanation. SPEAKER did not see how this was a br Mr l Gß^EN l only desired to clear the editor of that paper from an imputation of falsehood. Mr S. T. GEORGE rose to call attention to a further statement in the ’.temperance Herald, which had garbled the statement he had previously made to the House. He also contradicted another wrong impression by denying that liquors consumed in Bellamys were admitted free of Customs duty. . , Mr PYKE had received a letter from the editor of the Temperance Herald. The editor had evidently been misled by the manner in which the Controller-General’s memorandum had been prepared. “BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.”

Mr FISH wished to bring a question of privilege before the House, arising out of a paragraph in the Evening Post, relating to the Government steamer taking members and others on an excursion to Terawhiti. SPEAKER said if this was a breach of privilege, the hon. member must bring up the paper, state the names of the publishers, and move that the offending paragraph be read by the Clerk. Mr FISH would move the adjournment ot the House. „ .. . SPEAKER said if it was really a matter of privilege the hon. member must follow the course stated. He found it necessary, as Speaker, to set himself against frivolous complaints being brought forward. Mr FISH read the names of the publishers, and moved that the Clerk read the paragraph. The offending paragraph was then read, stating that Mining Managers and others who wished to go on the Hinemoa to Terawhiti next morning, could obtain, tickets from Mr E. Shaw, to whom the Minister of Marine had delegated the power of granting tickets. „ . Mr FISH asked the Minister of Marine (Major Atkinson) to say whether the publishers were officially authorised to make that announcement. That steamer was public property ; but it now appeared that this trip was organised, not for members of the House, as was supposed, but for Mining Managers and speculators. SPEAKER asked if the hon. member considered that a breach of privilege had been committed. . , , , ~ Mr FISH was willing to be ruled by the Speaker on that point. The breach of privilege was in tbis, whether the ]Vl!inister of Marine had delegated his power to Mr Shaw to make these arrangements at the expense of the country. , , , , SPEAKER said if a breach had been committed, the proper course was to move that the publishers be summoned to the bar of the House. , , Mr FISH moved that they be summoned accordingly. (Loud laughter). Mr SEDDON seconded, and said the pub-, lishers should be required to give up the name of the person who gave them instructions to publish that paragraph; and that person should be brought to the bar of the House. Mr Shaw had induced members to sign the requisition for this excursion under a wrong impression. ' , . Mr PYKE asked the Minister of Marine to say whether the steamer was to be used on this occasion for members of the House, or for mining speculators, all and sundry. He hinted at “salting,” and supposed those who were asked to go were expected to invest money in these mines. Mr SHEEHAN did not know they had a Minister of Marine, and asked who was this “Sir Joseph Porter, K.C.8.” (Laughter.) Mr Fish’s motion was then put, and was negatived amid laughter. v,

LAND LAWS AMENDMENT BILL. Sir G. GREY, in resuming the debate, pointed out that the Bill would have the effect on both races for some years to come, although the Native Minister had told the House the Bill would probably only be required to be in force for a short time. The Native Minister had informed the House that it was highly objectionable that large tracts of land should be held by the natives. The policy of taking the lands from the aboriginal races in Australia was a most merciless one. In New Zealand he was glad to say the same merciless policy had not been adopted, but he thought that the line of policy now laid down by the Government was not a statesmanlike one. The policy as disclosed in the Bill did not provide either for the welfare of the natives or of the wellbeing of the European population. He had, when at the head of the Government some years ago, brought down a Bill having for its object the settlement of the land held by the natives, which he believed would have settled the difficulty, but this never passed the Legislature. The evils as specified by the Native Minister of the settlement of the native lands was due to past Governments, and in a great measure it was due to the action of the Hon. the Native Minister himself. What he was about to say would, he doubted not, alienate his friends from him, but he felt that the task, although not a pleasant one, was a duty he owed to both the native race and the European population. One grave consideration was the employment of agents, who were obliged to be engaged through their knowledge of the Maori language. Then again, the natives were in the hands of those agents, who, by dint of plying the natives with liquor, assisted to ruin them, and the Maoris neglected their homes and families by attending the Courts, and were compelled to take anything doled out to them by designing agents. -No European, unless he was a capitalist, could purchase native lands. The Government should either take the settlement ©f the lands into their own hands, or else they should pass a stringent measure preventing the Europeans taking possession of lands unless through legally-recognised Companies or agents, who would take the preemptive possession of the lands on behalf of the Crown, and sell the lands in small lots to European settlers. The best plan would be for the Government to say to the Maoris, “We will sell your lands for you, and you shall not sell except through the Government.” He objected to the half-and-half course as proposed by the Government in their present Bill. If his proposition were adopted, justice would be done both to the Maori and to the European, and the former would receive full value for his land, while the latter would obtain a good and secure title. A Bill of eight or ten clauses would be sufficient for all purposes, and would be infinitely preferable to the measure before the House. There was another point which the Native Minister had not touched upon. Where native lands had been sold, there existed great reserves which were placed in trust, and were held by certain chiefs. These reserves were thought te have been and were said to have been unalienable, but a law had been passed by which the Governor could take off the restrictions against the sale of these reserves. Could it be believed that before. these restrictions were removed the reserves in squm instances were already sold by the native Trustees, who kept the purchase-money themselves .. and thus

left their fellow-countrymen poor for all time. This point had not been touched upon by the ' Native Minister. He asked was it right that political influence should have the effect of depriving the . native race of their reserves and sweeping these reserves into the hands of some wealthy families. The Premier was virtually the G overnorand he it was who removed the restrictions he had spoken of. He would inform the House that, during two years past, 21,879 acres of these lands were sold, and 13,221 acres of them passed into the family of the Hon. the Premier. Why was not this land thrown open to every person in the colony, (whether native or European ? Why were not these selections gazetted for sale ? He intended to bring m a Bill to amend these sales, and thus to make a step towards abolishing these great land monopolies. , , Mr BRYCE stated that it was not the Premier, but himself who had removed the considered the speech of the Hon. the Native Minister a most reasonable one. During previous sessions the Maori members had frequently begged the House to deal with the subject of native lands, but they had been met with the objection that the Maori members never suggested any way out of the difficulty. He thought the Native Minister was to be congratulated upon his Bill. When the confiscation of land took place, the Government had promised to watch over and guard the interests of the land, but this they had not done. He took exception to certain items in the Bill. He was afraid that the Government would be able to employ counsel, and then the same evils they had suffered in the past would again occur. He did not think the assessors should be appointed as they were at present. The assessors never went outside the court for evidence to guide them in their judgment, and if natives were not present when the case was called, the verdict would be given against them. The assessors laid too much stress upon occupation, and not sufficient upon legal right. He did not consider lawyers competent to deal with claims; in fact, the lawyers did nothing. The lawyers took the money, and there was little left for the Maoris. He did not agree with the Government securing the pre-emptive right, as he recollected the Government agents who, in 1876, sold the lands, and he thought if the Government again became agents, the same harm and wrong would ensue. The Government agents did not pay the Maoris what they were entitled to. He regarded the 12th clause as a very hard one, and he hoped when the Bill was in Committee the Native Minister would explain or amend the clause. If the Maoris cheated in their land transactions, they had had good tutors in the Europeans. He was quite aware that restrictions had been removed to the sale of the land referred to by the hon. member for Auckland City East. Some of the natives received L 5, others L 3, for their share of the land; and, although the natives in some instances were averse to selling, they were intimidated into so doing. He would support the Bill till it got into Committee. _ Mr W. C. SMITH remarked that the Crown had made a great mistake in giving up the preemptive right, and it would be much, better if the Government brought down a Bill to resume pre-emptive right instead of attempting to patch up the present system. If that course were adopted the land might be thrown open in small lots. It was useless for the Government to say they had not sufficient money, for the simple reason that the blocVs might be purchased block by block, and as one block was resold in small lots, the money might be devoted to the purchase of other blocks. He thought that the more sagacious and more cunning of the Natives would have a far better chance in the Land Courts than would the less experienced Maoris if they were not represented by counsel. Mr TOMOANA wanted the Bill so altered that the Maori could do what he liked with his own land, but let the Government watch between the Maori and the European, and interfere where transactions were not what they ought to be. He approved of lawyers being excluded from the Courts.

Mr HOBBS congratulated the House on the change of affairs even during the past twelve months. He congratulated the Native Minister on the fact that the Native representatives in the House had unanimously spoken in favor of the Bill The penalty for dealing with land before ascertainment of title should be nothing less than imprisonment. He believed the Natives would not consent, to a restoration of the Crown’s pre-emptive fight. It : would be impossible for Government to find money for purchasing land, and it would be unfair to prevent Natives from getting the best price in the open market. Some transactions in the past would not bear the light of day, but there were many honest cases where this Bill would operate unfairly and ruinously ; if the penalty were made retrospective without distinction, he would support Mr Stevens’s amending clause. If Sir G. Grey complained of certain clauses being omitted from this Bill, why did he not include them in his own bill ? Mr MONTGOMERY said the Native Land Sales Bill of 1880 was one of the best Bills introduced into that House, but the Bill was lost not for want of support from the Opposition, but because Mr Bryce’s own party would not follow him. He ran away from that measure when he should have carried it, showing that discretion was the better part of valor. As to the forfeit of LSOO, plenty of dummies could be got to run the risk of that. Imprisonment would have to be made imperative, and not left to the discretion of Justices. Was the Frauds Commissioner to act as an informer or inspector, or was he to be moved to action upon representations made to him ? The intention of the Bill was good, but it was a mere stopgap ; and they should not put it on the statute book, but leave the question till a more thorough Bill came before them. He concluded by asking Mr Bryce to take back this Bill, and even at this late date he should bring in his Bill of 1880, which he had then declared was the only remedy. Either this, or the pre-emptive right, was the only effectual remedy for the evils of the native land system. Mr KELLY referred to the evils of the land purchase system after the pre-emptive right was abandoned; and having sketched the history of native land legislation, he indicated amendments he would move in Committee. Mr FISH said either the pre-emptive right should be restored, or native land should be sold only through the Government, in which case information should be available at Land Offices throughout the colony, the same as the Crown lands, showing what native lands were in the market. This Bill was an honest one, though not going far enough. There should be a right of appeal from the decision of the Frauds Commissioner. Mr J.' BUCHANAN defended Mr De Lautour from an attack which he said Mr Hobbs had made, and said any imputation on Mr De Lautour’s conduct in connection with the Native Land Settlement Company must be shared by himself as also a member of that ■ Company. He would scorn to hold a seat in this House if he shrank from inquiry into the foul slanders circulated against that Company, i He would heartily support the present Bill, but feared it would not piove effectual for its

object. Pecuniary penalties would be ineffectual. If natives could only be assured that they would get the fair value of their land •, they would be willing to accept the Government agency. If this were done, no corrupt scrambling should be allowed among intending purchasers of native lands. He d d not approve of excluding lawyers from the Court. Mr TURNBULL said if pre-emption was to be restored, there would be the difficulty of fixing a fair price, which ought to be that which it was worth before the value was increased by the enormous expenditure on public works. , Mr SHEEHAN wanted the debate adjourned, the hour being late and the House very thin. If titles were to be investigated, they should begin with the South Island, where native land had been bought at the rate of eight acres for a farthing. The East Coast Land Company, which had been so often mentioned, was at that moment buying native land in the face of this Bill, and the Directors in this House knew it. He had never bought an acre of native land. When he came into office in 1877, he at once put down his foot on all private transactions, and shut out friends and foes. This Bill would intensify all the evils of the land traffic. It meant that, if the Native Minister had the will, he could have the power to give land to his friends and disappoint his enemies. The system of Government proclamation over native land killed private purchase. Mr Bryce came into office and put an end to that system, setting up free trade ; so that to this system was due all the evils which had ensued. He would vote for that clause which would exclude lawyers from the court. The only effect would be to relieve him as an advocate from the drudgery of attendance in court, but. the. work would have to be done outside. This Bill would be only a stopgap. The stream of capital and population now flowing into the North Island would be diverted from it. Hon. Mr BRYCE spoke briefly in reply. As to dropping his Bill of 1880, he thought in his innocence that he could depend on the assurances of support from Opposition members, knowing he could not depend on sufficient support from his own side. Haying had some years of experience as a Minister since that date, he frankly admitted he had relied too much on Opposition assurances. Investigations into native title could be made without the professional help of lawyers. It would be folly to say all evils would be cured by. this Bill. Land had been restored to rebel Natives, increased in value by lapse of time, which was more valuable than all the confiscated land. After the passing of this Bill, it would be easier for persons to purchase Native land than now, for the tedious and expensive negotiations before ascertainment of title would be done away with, and a bargain could be quickly made in cases where titles were ascertained. It would not be wise for the Government to go on largely purchasing native land. The Government had not employed lawyers in Land Courts for the ascertainment of title, and some objections made on this ground were therefore made in ignorance of the practice. The Frauds Commissioner was to have power to inquire into transactions made prior to the Bill coming into operation, and transactions carried out in equity andgood conscience would be allowed. He did not want enormous blocks to be kept locked up by Maoris, though they ought to have ample reserves not to be alienated. Unless they turned to habits of industry such as they once possessed, he believed - idleness would work evil. Replying to some charges made by Sir G. Grey, of removing retrictions from native blocks in the districts of Tauranga and Napier, he detailed the circumstances, and said he saw no reason whatever why these blocks should be kept locked up as dense bush, merely because these were Maori lands. In conclusion, he answered some personal remarks of Mr A. Macdonald as to the pardoning of Te Kooti, and was much applauded at the close. The second reading of the Bill was then agreed to, and the House adjourned at 1.5 a.m. till Monday afternoon. HOUSE OJF BEPKESENTATIViSS. MONDAY, AUGUST 13. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. NEW BILLS. Hon. Mr BRYCE gave notice to introduce next day the West Coast Peace Preservation Act Continuance Bill, and the West Coast Settlement Reserves Act Amendment Bill. Sir G. GREY to introduce the Restrictions Extinguishment Invalidation Bill THE MAORI KING. Sir G. GREY rose to say he had received a telegram from Tawhiao as follows:—“lam prepared to send two of my people to Wellington. They will carry my word, my message with them. What do you think of it ? Do you consent to this ? Please reply.” Before replying to this telegram, he wished to know how the Government regarded it, as he would not embarrass them by advising Tawhiao to send these people if the Government objected to it. Mr BRYCE said the Government regarded Tawhiao as a great tribal chief, and in any matter connected with his own tribe, the Government were perfectly willing to communicate with him and to treat with him. As to land at Kawhia harbor, Tawhiao seemed to have tribal authority over that territory, and he (the Minister) would be ready to consult him about that territory. After this expression of the view of the Government, the hon. member might be able to answer the telegram. It would be a good thing if Tawhiao would come down, or send representatives to place his views before the House. THE PREMIER’S POSITION. Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Sir G. GREY moved, as an amendment, “ That this House is of opinion that the Premier of New Zealand should not be a director or manager of any bank or company trading in the colony, nor should he receive any salary, pay, fees, or any remuneration whatever) for any services rendered to any such bank or company.” He felt he was assuming a difficult task in proposing this resolution, for. he was aware lie had to address an audience in great part hostile to him. Though treading on delicate ground, he felt it a great public duty to do so in this case. It would in future years appear almost like a fairy tale for men to look back on a state of things when the destinies of the whole population of this colony were in the hands of a few governing families. He must conscientiously say, what he knew to be unpalatable, that two or three great monetary establishments under one directory, exercised in the Legislature of this colony an undue and dangerous influence. He sincerely believed that the existing Government were maintained in their places by the influence of these monetary bodies. That was his firm conviction, and he ought not to conceal it; and he believed this was almost the first time in history in which great companies had attained to such, influence as the bodies he had alluded to. In Europe it would be deemed absolutely incredible that the solicitor to great bodies of this kind should become the Prime Minister of the country in which they traded.. Let them contrast their position with that of Great

Britain, and they would find that the three companies—the New Zealand Bank, the Loan and Mercantile Agency Company, and this new Mortgage Company—if holding capital in England in the same proportion to inhabitants as-in the colony, they would have the control of nearly five hundred millions of capital. Let them conceive what vast influence such .corncompanies must have in Great Britain, with so large a capital as that under their control; and apply that to the population of this colony, where companies possessing these enormous means united themselves with the .Government of the country, becoming identical with it to such an extent that every species of revenue collected passed into the coffers of this combined Company, in the first instance ; also, that every individual receiving pay from the Government must go to that Company and receive pay over its counter, probably taking its notes. If a. servant of that Company, or one connected with it as a Director or as its legal adviser, was installed as Premier of the colony, let the House mark what must take place. He might be told that it was by a chance the bank’s solicitor became the Premier of the colony, and was not because of his being connected with that Company. But his answer was that as the Government were mainly dependent for their seats in this House upon that body, it was the same body which put Mr Whitaker into the Legislative Council, in order that he might be qualified to become Premier, and that same body then advised the Governor to make him Premier of the colony. That much was certain. What followed upon that step ? This representative of that Company was now virtually the Governor of New Zealand. They might alter the terms as they pleased, but the Governor was a mere machine who signed the edicts prepared by the Premier. If Ee (Sir George) was right in saying that an undue influence did exist here, was not this the channel through which it was exercised? For what could the Premier do in this country ? And when bound up so closely with these great money corporations, what could the Premier further do in the Legislature ! He could assent to and dissent from every measure passed. The members were at his mercy in that respect, for the Premier, by his advice to the Governor, could refuse his assent to every Bill that passed ; he could defeat it in this House ; or he could so swamp the other House as to defeat any legislation there. Not only %vas that power possessed, but a still more dangerous power throughout the colony, because the Premier possessed a power of coining, he would not say gold, but honors and titles which some men regarded as more than gold, for the Premier could put his hand into that great treasury of Great Britain and draw out titles which he could bestow on any man. Thus the Premier used equally the power of the British Government and the power of Government here. That was a monstrous power to possess, and which might work great evil to this country. The same power created every Judge, raising also every Magistrate, or excluding him from the Bench. The Sheriffs were also appointed by the same person. Sheriffs also were paid, and were generally men to whom a salary was an object almost of necessity. From that power sprang the further power to appoint grand juries and special juries, and the power, of appointing jury lists—all resting on the Prime Minister of the day. However noble or however good any man might be, it was almost impossible to exercise such powers without there being a danger and a fear, if any man rose who was supposed to be hostile to these great money establishments, that some disaster might not in some way fall on him, such as the forced realisation of a mortgage held over him by these establishments. The temptation of using such power in this way was too great to entrust any man with it. The Premier had also the power of promoting or stopping all prosecutions ; a most monstrous power to vest in a man mixed up with great money companies. All the valuators of property for taxation purposes were appointed by him; and being partisans absolutely, as he knew personally many of them were, what hope was there of obtaining absolute justice ? It was impossible for men so appointed to rise above the passions of men. The Volunteer service promotions, the Customs service, and promotions in the Civil service generally, were all subject to this system; and many of those servants were absolutely subject in another way to these monetary institutions. Even among the voters, it would be a long time before independence could come about under such a system. He believed the same persons, by the same monetary influence, controlled a great portion of the Press, and exercised aU undue influence over it. Who controlled the goldfields ? Who chose the wardens and the police officers there ? Who controlled all the gaols and every gaoler ? That central power was the Premier, and that Premier was solicitor to these great moneyed corporations. Was that right ? Was it just? Did it give the people of New Zealand a fair chance ? It was hard for a man to know, if he applied for justice, that some debt upon his estate could be made the cause of his ruin if he persisted in his course. If Mr Gladstone. were the solicitor to such a body in Great Britain, or if his name appeared as a decoy duck .to some new scheme, what would the British people say to that ? What certainty was there that even this Legislative Chamber was not being used as a place where persons could be decoyed by the Premier’s name into becoming members of this new company ? —it being certain that if they did so, and once largely embarked in the venture, and if a difficulty occurred in connection with it, they would be under the tsmptation to do nothing by their votes in this House militate against the interest of these great monetary establishments. So long as this system was allowed to continue,, he saw no hope for the House or the country. The House should say, by resolution, that the Premier of the country must be a man free from all these influences. The Premier, as the source of all power and authority, had absolute power over all lands and all money in the country ; and ought he, as one connected with one of these great monetary institutions, to say that LBOO,OOO should be left in their hands as a deposit balance ? That was practically what he had done. The average deposits in the Bank of New Zealand had been L 666,000 during the last three years, and interest at the low rate of 3 per cent, being paid on only part of that large balance. That loss of interest to the colony amounted to a considerable tax. Think also of the sums paid in commission to that Bank, and add these to. the unpaid interest. The Treasurer had said he would have nothing to do with associated banks ; that he would resign his office if that were to be the alternative. That was the threat held out. Was it possible, so long as the Premier continued to be so connected, that he was likely to devise any other system ? So long as this state of things continued, so long as this House could not be perfectly independent, nor the other House be independent, of these great monetary institutions, any other Government attempting to conduct affairs must for some years meet with obstacles so created, and with interested enemies in every direction. \Vhile grateful to the Premier for the services he had rendered, it was due to the House to sa/y he ou <T ht to retire from one or other position. It he” would not retire from the one, let him make way for a Premier who would be free

•from tlia overshadowing .influence of these money institutions. The amendment was seconded.

Hon. Mr ROLLESTON replied by saying the proposal was one which members would be puzzled to know how the hon. member could defend on the floor of this House. The action of this House in the past had been such as to show that the dangers which had been sketched were imaginary. Having acted under several Premiers, he mn-t say the present Premier showed no disposition to act as an autocrat. The majority of this House would not be willing to accept the description just now given, that they did not represent their constituents, but were elected ard maintained through the influence of particular monetary institutions outside this House. The Premier was stated to be really the Governor of the country, but that was not the practical effect of the present system, and it must be denied that the Premier as head of the Ministry was its dictator. The Cabinet was a corporate -body, acting together, and all appointments over L2OO were made with the joint approval of the Cabinet, and on the suggestion necessarily of the Ministerial head of the particular department. Sheriffs did not appoint grand juries, who were chosen by ballot. As to wardens on goldfields, no new Government could interfere much with these or other officers who were doing their duty efficiently. The country’s destinies were not to be worked out by putting some one man at the head of affairs. If they were to exclude men from the highest position on the ground of being connected with a bank, it would follow that they ought also to disqualify men from the lower positions for the same reason. As to the agreement with the Bank of New Z#aland, the member seemed to argue that the Government’s finances were carried on by the Premier and the Bank in secresy, The Treasurer having nothing to do with it. The financial arrangements with the bank were always open to inspection and revision, and the agreement was terminable at six months’ notice. That agreement was made before the present Premier took office. He (the Minister) was not aware whether the Premier was solicitor of the bank, but if it were so, he could not _ admit there was any wrong in it. The real point was whether his position as Premier was or was not compromised by his holding other offices in one or more monetary institutions. The hon. gentleman ought to be to show that the Premier had acted, as solicitor inconsistently ■with his position as Premier. He hoped the House would not consent to this proposal, which would practically disfranchise the Premier from holding that position. Mr FISH said the question was, whether it was proper that the Premier should act as solicitor to a monetary institution in which the • colony’s interests were largely wrapped up? The Ministry strongly objected, not long ago, to the Agent-General acting as Director of a •company at Home ; and the same objection applied to the present arrangement. If the Minister of Native Lands, for instance, were ■found to be a large dealer in such lands, he might act within the strict law, but would he not be open to the suspicion of using his office to promote his private interests ? The Premier had an overshadowing influence both over his own colleagues and over the institutions of the country. The Premier ought to resign one •position or the other. Mr JOYCE referred to the correspondence on the subject of the steam-shipping service, the Premier corresponding with one set of persons, and the Minister of Immigration corresponding with another, thereby showing that the Premier might and did act independ ntly of his colleagues when he chose to do so. Mr TURNBULL said the Premier of the colony should, like Ceesar’s wife, be above suspicion. The large average balance left in the Bank implied a corresponding loss of interest, - •which was unfair to the country, and a favor to the Bank. The case set up had not been sufficiently answered by the Minister of Lands. Mr SEDDON thought this House and the -colony were indebted, firstly, to Mr Dargaville, and secondly, to Sir G. Grey, for calling attention to the danger arising from these large monetary institutions. The Premier • ought not to be put in a position where his private or business interests came in conflict with his duties to the colony. When the piesent arrangement was made with the Bank of New Zealand, the Hon. Mr Whitaker’ did not occupy the same position ; and if he had not held* that position lately, was it not fair to -infer that so large a deposit balance as L 666,000 would not have been left in the hands of the bank? Under the.premiership of Sir John Hall, the average balance was so low that the bank sent an intimation they would feel obliged if the accounts were /removed. How was this change to be accounted for. He did not believe that members of the Ministry allowed their interests to override t their public duty. The Premier was an able and conscientious man ; but the House ought • not, as a matter of- public policy, to place him •in a position where he would be open to the suspicion of using his large influence in favor of particular monetary institutions. There was an evident danger, and the House should be warned and provide against it. He would vote for Sir G. Grey!s amendment, and hoped the Government would, later in the session, inform the House that they had taken steps to give effect to it. Mr BATHGATE supported the amendment with great pleasure. The Minister of Lands had not long ago expressed an opinion that it was inconsistent for a District Judge to be a director of a public company. The same principle should therefore be applied to the present case. Mr Bathgate went on at length to argue that a reform in the banking system of the colony had become increasingly desirable during the last thirteen year 3. He quoted statistics of the principle Banks to show that the proportion of coin and bullion was not adequate in any crisis to meet the large note circulation, and a real danger was menacing the colony’s future commercial prosperity. Mr MONTGOMERY regarded this as a grave constitutional question, though somewhat narrow and personal as stated in the amendment. In order to put the question on broader grounds, he suggested as a further amendment the disqualification should apply not to the Premier in particular, but to any Minister; and with that alteration he would cordially support it. That would be a right and necessary resolution to pass, for if a man became a Minister of the colony, he should cease to be a director of a bank. If a Treasurer were in that position, he could not possibly act in a manner free from objection, or from suspicion of favoritism. Men might be as pure as driven snow, yet it was right today down a general principle such as he had suggested. A Minister could not be expected to give the use of his name on the directory of a publie company without payment ; therefore a Minister ought not to hold such an office, nor receive any fee for that connection. He wanted to put this question on a constitutional ground, and not make it a personal or narrow matter. Mr HURST said Mr Goschen and Mr Mandella, while Ministers at Home, were directors of banks. Mr MONTGOMERY said Mr Goschen resigned his directorship when he became a Minister.

Mr DE LAUTOUR understood the division would have to be taken on Sir G. Grey’s amendment, and that Mr Montgomery’s altera-

tion of it could not be voted on till after a decision on the amendment itself. He thought more members would be disposed to apply this principle to the Premier, as head of the Ministry and source of its life, than to other members of the Ministry. The new point raised was a difference in degree. The Iremier's resignation meant the resignation of his colleagues, and the Premier was responsible for every appointment made by the Ministry. Hon. Major ATKINSON said that was not S °Mr DE LAUTOUR maintained it was, beeause the Premier was the only source from which advice could be tendered to the Crown to sanction any appointment recommended. It was unfortunate that the Premier was not a member of this House, elected by the people, and always able to defend his Ministry on the floor of this House, ~ _ ... , Mr J. BUCHANAN said the Committee of Accounts had not, during his experience of 13 years, done its duty by reporting to the House the state of the colonial accounts from time to time. The blame of shirking this important duty must be borne by members on both sides of the Hoii-e. If the rivalry between the Bank of New Zealand and other banks had been pushed to improper limits, that fact ought to have been shown. He would vote for Sir G. Grey’s amendment. Sir G. GREY said .that as to the example of Mr J. A. Mundella in England, his position was that he was a Director of a New Zealand Company, which was not looked on as trading in England. If it were otherwise, Mr Mundella °as Minister would doubtless have resigned such private position, as other Ministers had done. His reason for not including the word “ Minister ” in this disqualification was that if any Company got into trouble and desired to employ the Attorney-General,he would be excluded from such employment. Question of going into Committee of Supply was then put —Ayes, 44 ; noes, 26 ; majority of IS against Sir G. Grey’s amendment. Ayes, 44.—Allwright, Atkinson, Beetham, Bryce, Conollv, Dick, Dodson, D aver, Fergus, Fitz Gerald, Fulton, Hamlin, Hobbs, Hurst, Hursthouse, C. J. Johnston, AY. W. Johnston, Kelly, Lee, Levestam, F. \V. Mackenzie Mason, McDonald, McMillan, Mitchelson, Morris, Munro, O’Callaghan, Peacock,^Petrie, Postlethwaite, Pyke, Rolleston, Stevens, Sutter, Sutton, Swanson, H. Thomson, Trimble, Watt, Whitaker, J. B. Whyte, Wright, Wynn-Williams. Noes, 26. —Barron, Bathgate, J. Buchanan, Cadman, Daniel,, Dargaville, De Lautour, Duncan, Feld wick, Fish, Grey, Harris, Ivess, Joyce, Macandrew, A. McDonald, J. McKenzie, Montgomery, Seddon, Shnmski, Smith, Steward, J. W. Thomson, Tole, 1 urnbull, W. White. SUPPLY —IMMIGRATION. House went into Committee of Supply on the Public Works Estimates, commencing with Immigration. Mr MONTGOMERY expressed a strong desire that remarks in Committee of Supply should be fully reported in Hansard. SPEAKER said he would confer with the chief reporter on the matter. Mr J. C. BROWN suggested that as it was proposed at Home to send out 10,000 persons to the colonies, some expense might be saved to this colony by arranging to select the best of them. Mr HURST said laboring men were difficult to get in the North at less than 8s 6d per day. Mr TURNBULL would undertake to ship 100 from Oamaru. He had sent men to Auckland who returned saying they could not get more than 6s 6d a day. House adjourned for dinner. EVENING SITTING. Consideration of the Immigration Estimates in Committee of Supply was resumed. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON replied to_various remarks on this proposed vote, by stating that the L 200.000 set aside out of loan for immigration was intended to be over three years, the number not to exceed 5000 a year. Facilities were given for immigrants under the assisted plan to be nominated by friends in every part of the colony. During the twelve months ended June last 7000 immigrants were nominated by friends and relatives in the colony, and about L19,0J0 had been deposited on this account. About 640 nominations were received yesterday from different districts —300 being English, 160 Irish, and the rest Scotch and other nationalities. The Agent-General had instruction to see that the different nationalities were sent out in fair proportion. Irish colonists did nominate their friends_ at Home in a larger proportion than the English. As Minister, he could not take notice of any question of religion in the propqrtion of nominated immigrants. Remarks were made as to the policy of bringing out immigrants of a pauper class. Sir G. GREY, replying to Mr Hurst and Mr Fergus, said that those of the poor at Home, who had bones and sinews, and hearts and intellects and consciences, had a right to claim homes in this new land, and it was cruel to say they ought not to be brought over because they were paupers. The word “pauper’’was offensive. Every man who was wretched and miserable, if he was good, ought to be brought out here, if nominated, and allowed to do his best. ! Mr FERGUS denied that this colony needed paupers, or would benefit by bringing them here at the public expense. Those who had been pauperised by generations of pauperism were what he meant by the pauper class. This colony wanted men with thews and sinews and energy ; not a helpless class of weaklings. Sir G. GREY said the hon. member’s friends on the Ministerial benches were those who provided paupers here, by grasping and keeping large tracts of land. If inhabitants here happened to have weakly relatives at Home, theyshould be allowed to nominate them as assisted immigrants. Persons to be dreaded were those who made paupers here, not those who wanted to bring poor people from Home. Mr SWANSON expressed surprise that in addition to the paupers we were making here, we should also import paupers from Home. Mr LEVESTAM tested the feeling of_ the Committee by moving to strike out off Llo,ooo from the vote of L 75,000 for assisted immigration. Mr MOSS supported this, and argued that as the Customs revenue was falling off seriously, the vote for immigration ought to be reduced, especially as it was taken out of loan. Mr FISH and Mr HURSTHOUSE hoped the vote would be increased, rather than reduced.

Mr HUTCHISON wanted to know what benefits were expected by bringing in more immigrants. The object of introducing labor was to make labor cheaper than at present. Before introducing more workers, the whole system must be changed. Mr MACANDREW said when he went to Otago in the early days, wages ranged from 3s 6d to 53 a day. The result of bringing more immigrants was to increase the rate of Mr HURSTHOUSE said people should go out of the towns and live in the country, instead of congregating in towns and trying to live on bread and water.

Mr SUTTER said wages had risen continually by immigration since he came to the colony. Mr J. MACDONALD said Otago could ab-

sorb 200 ploughmen per month for a year. It was not a question of numbers, but of quality. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said, as to labor agencies, none seemed to be required, for every labor immigrant who could work was able to obtain employment without difficulty. The proposed reduction of L 15,000 was then negatived, and the total immigration vote of L 78,706 was passed. PUBLIC WORKS. In class 2, Public Works Department, several amendments for reduction were proposed, but the total vote of L 4145 was passed unaltered. In class 3, railways, L 16,000 was voted for Kawaliawa railway, and it appeared the private Company owe L4OOO as interest on cost of construction at 6 per cent., which sum cannot be legally claimed till the line is completed. Other votes passed for lines in the North Island were—Lsoso for Whangs,rei to Kamo, L 75,000 for Kaipara to Waikato, and LBO,OOO for Waikato Thames. On the vote of L 115.000 for Wellington to Napier railway. Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said, in reply to Mr J. C. Brown, nothing had been done for some time to extend the line beyond Masterton; L 200,000 was put down in the loan schedule for extending the line beyond Masterton. The extension towards Woodville from Napier had been delayed through a long viaduct taking a long time to construct, L 60,000 was now put down for expenditure this year in continuing the line beyond Masterton, including branch to Greytown, and L 55,000 for extension southward from the Napier end. Mr SMITH said the survey from the Napier end to Woodville should be done as soon as possible. A contract for two bridges near Daneverk was much behind time. Hon. Mr JOHNSTON replied that notice had been given that penal ties for delay would be strictly enforced in future. Also in Class 3, a sum of L 54,000 for completing the gap in the Patea district to connect with the line at Hawera was voted without remark. Other votes passed were L 13,000 for the line from Nelson to Roundell; L 29.000 for Greymouth to Nelson Creek, L6OOO for Greymouth to Hokitika, L4OOO for Westport to Ngakawau. On the vote of L 55,000 for extension from Picton to Awatere, a prolonged discussion took place as to what fund this vote should come out of —whether it was part of the LIBO,OOO allocated by the loan for extension from Canterbury northward to Cook Strait. The ultimate question was whether this was to be part of the main trunk line or not. A motion to report progress was negatived at ten minutes to two o’clock. The vote was then passed. A sum of L 162,000 was voted for Hurunui to Waitaki and branch lines was passed; also LII,OOO for Oxford to Malvern, L 241,000 for, Waitaki to Bluff and branches, L 130,000 for Otago Central, LII,OOO for Invercargill to Kingston, L 29,500 for Otago Western railways, L3OOO for contingent expenses, and LSOO for expenses of railway commission ; LIO,OOO for surveys of new lines in North Island, and L4OOO for surveys of new lines in South Island, were also passed. House adjourned at 2.25 a.m. till Tuesday afternoon, no reductions having been made in any of the above estimates. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, AUGUST 14. DARGAVILLE COMMITTEE. Mr MASON moved for and obtained: an extension of ten days to the Committee appointed to investigate the Dargaville charges. ADMISSION TO CIVIL SERVICE. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Colonial Secretary, If there are any rules regulating admission to the Civil Service of the colony; and, if so, will the Minister state generally the purport of these rules ? Hon. Mr DICK replied that Clause 13 of the Civil Service Act, 1866, defined the conditions. The candidate must be of the fu'l age of 17, and not more than 22 years ; and must give satisfactory evidence as to health, age, and moral character ; and must pass the Civil Service examination. LOCAL CARE OF HOSPITALS, &C. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Government, Whether, having respect to the opinion of numerous members of this House, generally expressive of the necessity of placing hospitals, the care of orphan and deserted children, and the distribution of charitable aid under, at least, some measure of popular management, the} will take some steps immediately to carry out this object ? Hon. Mr DICK said that whenever the Government could place hospitals under local management, this was done. The Government would also be glad to be relieved entirely of the management of local relief. THE MURDERED WARDER. Mr LEVESTAM asked, If the Government will consider the advisability of bringing in a Bill to enable them to make a certain weekly or monthly allowance to the widow of the late warder Adams (recently murdered in the Nelson Gaol while in the execution of his duty), instead of granting her a lump sum ? He now understood the widow desired to go Home. Hon. Mr CONOLLY said the Government were informed the widow intended to go to England. It was intended to|| allow £3OO, equal to two year’s salary of her deceased husband ; and the funeral expenses had also been paid. FRUITPRESERVING. Mr MONTGOMERY asked the Colonial Treasurer, If he intends this session to make an alteration in the Customs tariff, imposing a duty on boiled fruit imported into the colony ? Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that the law was sufficient at present, if properly applied, and this was intended to be done. COUNTIES ACT AMENDMENT. Mr STEWARD asked whether the Government propose to proceed with the Counties Act Amendment Bill this session ; and, if so, when such Bill will be in the hands of hon. members 1 He referred to the extensive irrigation system in Ashburton County, and said other counties now desired power to carry out similar works. Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that he would introduce the intended Bill that day, and it contained clauses of the nature referred to. J RAILWAY SERVANTS’ VOTES. Mr BARRON asked whether any, and if so, what, deduction has been made from the wages of men employed by Government in railway workshops and otherwise, for the time spent by these men in recording their votes at any election for members of the House of Representatives, within the past three years ? Hon. Mr Johnston said- there were no records of any such deduction having been made, t hough he could not say whether deductions might have been actually made for this purpose without the same being so stated. THE TRIP TO TERAWHITI. Mr FISH asked the Minister of Marine,

whether he authorised the insertion of the following paragraph, which appeared in the columns of the Evening Post on the 10th instant, viz. : —“ We are requested to state, for the information of mining managers and other persons interested in mining, who may be desirous of visiting Terawhiti to-morrow in the s.s. Hinemoa, that application for passes is to be made to Mr Shaw, M.H.R., to whom the power of issuing them has been delegated by the Minister of Marine and whether he was aware, when the request was made to him for the services of the Hinemoa, that it was for the use of such portion of the Wellington public as Mr Shaw, M.H.R., might, in his discretion think fit to invite, or for the use of hon. members and their families ? He believed the Minister had been deceived on this subject to some extent. Events had proved that the trip was intended mainly for people in Wellington who were interested in working up speculation in these mines. The steamer was aleo arranged to start at an hour too early for the convenience of members and their families ; only ten members of both Houses having availed themselves of this trip. Hon. Major ATKINSON felt obliged for this opportunity of getting out of a difficulty. He had given no authority for the insertion of the paragraph. He was not aware then, nor did he know now-, that the steamer was for the use of that portion of the Wellington public which’ Mr E. Shaw might choose to invite. He was still under the impression that the Hinemoa w&s placed on this occasion for the convenience of hon. members of this House.

Mr E. SHAW wished to make a personal explanation. He had employed the usual means of informing hon. members ; and Mr Fish had himself directed attention to the excursion by reading a newspaper paragraph ou Friday evening, Mr DANIEL said the hon. member had done his best to meet the convenience of members, by keeping the steamer waiting threequarters of an hour after the time for starting. PAY OF CHAINMEN. Mr FERGUS asked, Whether the Government will restore the 10 per cent, taken from the chainmen and others employed on the survey staff ? Their wages should be at least equal to the rate ruling in the particular district where they were engaged. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said these men got 7s a day, wet or dry, while on survey parties. Special merit or usefulness was recognised by increase of pay. He could not change the system. PAPER MANUFACTURE. Mr FERGUS asked, Whether the Government will still give the bonus of £IOOO, as advertised in Gazettes of 1877, for the manufacture of the first fifty tons of printing paper in the colony ? He also asked whether they were prepared to give a little more, because if so, there was a firm in the colony willing to commence this manufacture. Hon. Mr DICK could not answer the question without further inquiiy. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :—Hon. Major Atkinson, The Otago Dock Bill ; Hon. Mr Dick, Electric Telegraph Act 1875 Amendment Bill ; Hon. Mr Dick, Auckland Hospital Reserves Bill ; Hon. Major Atkinson, The Harbors Act Amendment Bill ; Hon. Mr Bryce, Native Reserves Bill ; Hon. Mr Bryce, West Coast Settlement Reserves Act Amendment Bill ; Hon. Mr Bryce, West Coast Peace Preservation Act Continuance Bill ; Hon. Mr Bryce, Middle Island Half-caste Grants Bill ; Sir G. Grey, Restrictions Extinguishment Invalidation Bill. NATIVE LAND PROCLAMATIONS. Sir G. GREY gave notice to move next day for a return of all cases in which restrictions on the sale or alienation of native lands had been removed by the Government since thp end of March last, or where promises to do so had been given ; also for copies of all such applications, with correspondence relating thereto. He reminded the Native Minister of a recent promise to lay on the table of this House a return similar to that presented to the other House. Hon. Mr BRYCE had forgotten the promise, but there was no objection whatever to the return being presented to this House. Sir G. GREY said it was rumored there was a serious error in that return, and it might be revised before being presented to this House. ELECTION PETITION EXPENSES. On Major ATKINSON’S motion to go into Committee of Supply, Mr IVESS moved an amendment to the effect that the House approved of the principle of the money clause introduced into his Election Petitions Act Amendment Bill, for relieving candidates from the expenses of election petitions, where an election was invalidated through the fault of a returning officer ; subject to the approval of the Court. In consequence of his opponent, Mr WasoD, being unseated for Wakanui, on petition, through the returning officer’s blunders, the defeated candidate was mulcted in expenses amounting to £6BO. It was hard that in this and similar cases the defeated candidate should have to pay the cost of errors for which he was in no way responsible. The Bill was intended to remove this grievance, though the Bill would be worthless without this money clause, by which the State was to be charged with the cost of errors committed by its own officers. The Government would be sufficiently protected by the proviso that the Court must be satisfied that the election was voided through errors or laches of the returning officer or his deputy. He hoped the feeling of the House would induce the Government to consent to insertion of this money clause, and so enable the Bill to pass the remaining stages. Hon Mr DICK repeated his objection to this clause, quoting the recommendation of a Select Committee on the subject, as being against the principle of charging the costs of such blunders on the Government. If a candidate were not prepared for this and other risks of a contested election, he ought not to be a candidate. Mr DUNCAN was surprised to hear the Minister’s opinion on this subject. A. candidate’s election might be upset by an intentional error on the part of a returning officer ; and it was enough for a candidate to bear the cost of his own laches, without being also chargeable with those which a returning officer might make. Mr SHEPHARD said the right couise was for the State to pay for the misconduct of its own officers. The alternative would be to repeal the Corrupt Practices at Elections Act. It was quite possible that a corrupt officer

might be got into the pay of a rival candidate, for the purpose of voiding the election of a candidate whose majority of votes was practically certain. Mr MACANDREW agreed that the Act referred to ought to be repealed this session. He would rather have an election petition in his own case tried by his political opponents iu this House than by the legal tribunal appointed under the Act. He would support the motion in order to get repeal. Mr WYNN-WILLIA.MS said a defeated candidate was required to deposit £2OO with a petition, and this sum would be sufficient to cover the expenses of several petitions, if the lawyers’ expenses were properly taxed, which could not have been done in Mr Wason’s case. If the total costs were not to exceed £2OO on petition, nothing more would be heard of this grievance. The present Act did, he admitted, afford a large source of revenue to lawyers. If the House affirmed the dangerous principle that the expense of election petitions based on the error of .returning officers must be paid by the State, the result would be that there would be electioa petitions produced in every part of the colony, and this House would have to vote very large sums. The law should be altered so as to enable the Government to appoint proper officers to conduct elections.

Mr SHRIMSKI said partisan officers might put candidates to much trouble and expense. If private persons were responsible for the acts of their servants, the Government ought to be put in the same position. Mr SMITH said the passing of Mr Ivess’s Bill would make the Crown more cautious in appointing suitable returning officers, knowing that the costs of their errors would fall on the State.

Mr MONTGOMERY suggested that if the expenses of a lawyer supporting a petition were not to be charged on the other side, the costs of a petition would be so reduced as not to be a serious charge, and there would then be less objection to this Bill in making the costs of a voided election fall on the State, where the error was due to the State’s officers. The legal expenses of the winning party should not be chargeable to the losing party ; for if a candidate chose to einr , ploy a lawyer, let that candidate pay him.

Unless such protection were given, a wealthy candidate might ruin a poor one. Mr J. ,E. BROWN opposed the money clause, as offering a premium to every lawyer in the country to promote election petitions. If the Act it3elf were repealed, thite Housecould hear petitions before Committees, and do justice to all parties. Mr FELDWICK could not see why candidates should be responsible for the wrongdoing of any incompetent or dishonest returning officer. He hoped the Bill would pass this year. Hon. Major ATKINSON suggested that, as the hon. member could not hope to carry his Bill at this late stage of the session, even if the House affirmed the principle of the money clause, he should now content himself with this assurance, that the Government would deal with the whole question next session. He could not pledge the Government as to the form of the Bill at present, but there would have to be legislation on the subject next session.

Mr FISH said the vote 3 on the present proposal might be taken a 3 an indication of the feeling of the House, with a view to the promised legislation next year. Question then put, and division taken— Ayes, 41 ; noes, 34 ; majority of seven against Mr Ivess’ amendmeut.

Ayes, 41.—Allwright, Atkinson, Beetham, J. E. Brown, Bryce, Conolly, Dick, Fergus, Fitz Gerald, Fulton, Hobbs, Hursthouse, W. W. Johnston, Kelly, Larnach, Lee, F. W. Mackenzie, Mcllraitb, McMillan, Mitchelson, Munro, O’Callaghan, Peacock, Paarson, Petrie, Pilliet, Postlethwaite, Rolleston, Stevens, Sutter, Sutton, Swanson, Tawhai, H. Thomson, Trimble, Watt, Whitaker, J. B. Whyte, J. G. Wilson, Wright, WynnWilliams.

Noes, 34. —Barron, Bathgate, Bracker, J. C. Brown, Cadman, Daniel, De Lautour, Dodson, Duncan, Feldwick, Fish, George, J. Green, Grey, Hamlin, Harris, Hutchison, Ivess, Joyce, Levestam, Macandrew, A. McDonald, Montgomery, Moss, Pyke, Seddon, Shephard, Shrimski, Smith, Steward, J. W. Thomson, Tole, Turnbull, W. White. SUPPLY NATIVE LANDS. House then went into Committee of Supply, commencing with the Estimates of the Native Department. An important debate arose on the policy of native laud purchase, having reference mainly to Mr Bryce’s Native Land Acts Amendment Bill. Mr M ACANDREW asked for information as to lands purchased. Hon. Mr BRYCE said about £71,000 was put down provisionally to complete land purchases in order to wind-up bargains previously entered into. Perhaps not. more than half this amount might have to be paid this year. The gross liabilities still remaining on account of land blocks or portions of blocks which Goverpment had decided to acquire, in order to put an end to the engagements made by the previous Government, amounted now to £309,299. Mr MACANDREW said it was some satisfaction to find that the million of liabilities which the late Government were said to have committed the colony to, was now found to be only £309,299. The country had rung for years with the alleged recklessness of the late Government in these obligations. It would be idiotic to allow this native land system to go on ; and he asked the Southern representatives to mark that the South Island was being plundered every day, and this was one of the directions.

Hon. Mr BRYCE said the hon. member had indulged in a pretty bit of declamation. The fact was that the hon. member was a party to makiDg agreements for a million or more for purchases of native lands. (Mr Macandrew : No.) There was no mistake that agreements were made for more than a million. If the hon. member was no party to those agreements, it was strange that he was in the Government at the time and knew nothing of them. He had no right to repudiate his responsibility for what was done by his Government. It was actually made a reproach that the present Government had taken off proclamations over native lands which the previous Government had put on, while at the same time the hon. member denounced any expenditure in the purchase of native lands. How was it the hon. member put the proclamation on particular blocks if it was not for the purchase of those lands ?

Mr MACANDREW : I did not know it was done.

Eon Mr BRYCE said that did not do away with the hon. member’s responsibility. No doubt he had been iguoraat of a good many things that were going on in his Government, but that did not relieve him of responsibility for what was done. The hon. member was responsible, whether he knew of things or hot. The hon. member said the colony had got no benefit from native lands purchased, ana that these lands had gone into the hands of private speculators. The hon. member had turned the thiug upside down. Of course if the laud did not go into the hands of the Government, it would go into the hands of speculators. If suitable laud did go into the hands of Government, it would be dealt with under the land laws of the colony.

Mr MAC ANDREW said deliberately, without any passion, that so far as he was aware no such undertaking was ever agreed to or submitted to the Cabinet, and he knew of no such obligation being incurred with the knowledge sf the Cabinet. His word would be accepted on that point by hon. members. He understood the proclamations were issusd over particular blocks for protecting the Maoris against speculators, and had no reference to the purchase of such lands by the Government. He believed that large tracts of native land had got into the hands of speculators, at a nominal price. But he would not pursue this subject of native lands, which stank in his nostrils. Mr A. MACDONALD said the Government purchased the Patetere Block, paying £14,000 odd. Who removed that proclamation ? The Native Minister. What had been the result ? That same block had been since sold in the London market for £300,000. Mr TURNBULL thought contamination with the Native Office had demoralised Mr Bryce, who appeared to have lent himself to one of the grossest jobs ever perpetrated. Hon. Mr BRYCE said the Patetere Block was one of the agreements entered into by the late Government. (Mr Macandrew : No.)

and advances to a considerable amount were made on it, the block being proclaimed because negotiations were proceeding. The present Government found many of these negotiations in progress, and proceeded to get out of most of them by consent of the owners, including Patetere. Mr BARRON asked how much the Government got back for Patetere ? Hon. Mr BRYCE said about £II,OOO. One European who was negotiating wanted to make a refund of what the Government paid, and he offered £14,000 cash, but the Minister refused to take it, insisting that the account must be first ascertained, and that the refund would have to be made by the actual owners. The accounts were gone into, and then certain portions of the block were set apart as equivalent to the Government advance which had been made. Mr SHEEHAN said so far from Patetere being a profit to the owner, shares in that block could now be bought at below par. Mr A. MACDONALD asked if the land had been sold in London for the amount stated. Mr SHEEHAN said certainly not. After leaving office, he had offered to the present Ministry to go into Court and complete the Government titles to Patetere without charge for his services. That offer was not accepted, and he then felt at liberty to take employment in the interest of those who were trying to purchase that block. He would undertake to prove that the accusation as to a million ■sf liabilities was one without foundation. It was an attempt to misguide the House. Iu none of those cases were the Government bound to complete the agreement to purchase, but they had the power to make the other parties complete their bargain if called on. The late Government advanced small sums to shut out private purchasers, though the Government were not bound to pay one single penny more than the advances made. The obligation was not legally binding, but was entered into as a matter of public policy. He must affirm that the pre-emptive right could not now be restored. The Government were now tying up the land in the North Island from private purchase, and were yet not undertaking Government purchase. It was a mistake to utter on this great question a paltry sound.,, Let there be free trade, or Government purchase. He objected to a system whereby it was possible that certain people might be able to get what they wanted—(Sir G. Grey : Hear, hear) —while others who were “ not known to the police ” could get nothing. The whole North Island was now being made to pay for the sins of a few. They in the North Island were entitled to say to persons in the South, “ If we make fair bargains with the natives, why should, you stop us ? Look to your own titles. The reproach against us at present is that we are swamping up this land at 2s 6d to 20s an acre. Leave the people in this island to work out their own destiny. 0 If they could not do this, he would change his creed and say v 1 Cut the painter, and give us separation.” The most unfounded, untruthful, and ungenerous accusation made against the Grey Government, though not by the present Minister, was that one about a million of liabilities for purchase of native lands. The system had been a series of mistakes from the start. House adjourned for dinner. EVENING SITTING. Discussion was continued in Committee of of Supply, on the vote for purchase .of Native lands. Mr SHEEHAN continued his remarks by protesting against persons coming down at this day and bewailing the fact that so many acres of Native land had passed into the hands of private purchasers since the Native Minister came into office. When Mr Bryce’s Bill came up for second reading, the hon. member would show that Government had been the greatest offenders in buying land before it went through the Court. He would show that, in dealing with native owners, persons had been shut out who had a more equitable title to the land than the grantees who received the money. The House was entitled to ask the Government, “ Are you in favor of free trade in land, or not ? ” That Bill would give the Minister power, if he chose to use it, to keep back the titles of particular purchasers, and grant titles to other purchasers. Government should place no obstacle In the way of land in the North’lsland being purchased by private individuals with the object of promoting settlement. They in the North Island were determined to have the 1 right of free purchase and free trade in lands.

Mr MACANDREW was astonished to hear that they in the South had got their lands almost for nothing. Hardly any lands in Otago had been acquired for less than £2 an acre, and the greater part of that purchase money had goue to help the North Island,. He had heard that 35,000 acre 3 had been purchased near Stratford at 2i 3d an acre ; also that one man in the North Island had received 170,000 acres at Is 6d an acre, and another who had got 40,000 acres at 2s 6d an acre. He desired to see a Land Board elected by the Maori people, with one or more members nominated by the Government ; and let it be so arranged that the whole amount of purchase, less the cost of survey, be paid to that Board for the native owners. Of the millions spent in purchase of native lands, how little gone into the pockets of Maoris ! Let the native land question be left to be dealt with by members in the North Island, as Southern members could not be expected to understand it. As to the liability for native lands incurred by the late Government for land purchases, he did not believe a word of it. For himself, he never was a party to any such liability. Let them put party considerations aside, and make an end of this Native Land Purchase Department. . Hon. Mr . BRYCE said this debate was directed against a Bill which had not yet come up for second reading, and he felt reluctant to speak at length on it, although some answer seemed necessary to various statements made in prejudice of that Bill. He repeated that the Grey Government left more than a million of liabilities for native land purchases. His own Dolicv had been to reduce these liabilities as far as was practicable. He was accused by Mr Sheehan of teaching the Maoris a lesson iu repudiation. That meant that these bargains involved a moral obligation for their completion ; and therefore he was justified in saying that the Government had incurred large obligations to purchase. Did Mr Macandrew mean that the large blocks bought at low prices had been sold by the Government ? Mr MACANDREW said the Government allowed them to be bought. Hon. Mr BRYCE said those Maoris who had titles to their land were free to sell it to any private purchasers. The pre-emptive right having been withdrawn, the Maoris were as free as Europeans co sell land to which they had a title. All that the new Bill proposed was that native lands should not be bargained for prior to the ascertainment of title ; but this would not prevent the sales of native lands after titles were ascertained. He quoted figures to show that the amount of liabilities incurred by the Grey Government were much more than the million he had stated. The amount agreed to be paid was without exception, at the high rate of 7a 6d per acre. This showed that it was understated when the liabilities left by the Grey Government were stated at a million sterling. If the House chose at a future time to restore the pre-emp-tive right, he would undertake the purchase of land from the natives, though the system was open to objection. Still, nothing could be worse than the system which was in vogue when he took office. He had been trying to put au end to it by reducing the State’s liability as far as practicable. In winding up these purchases, as soon as the Government interest in a block was clearly defined, he withdrew the proclamation over that portion which the Government did not agree to purchase.

Sir G. GREY said the Minister had not so stated the removal of the restriction on native lands as to enable the Hou->e to understand the system. In dealing with a large block, so much was kept back as a reserve for the native race in perpetuity, the remainder of the block being purchased by the Government for the public at large. Some influential persons were able to obtain information from the Native Office that these reserves existed. Those persons would then bargain with the natives to sell such reserves ; and a bargain being made, the Government were afterwards induced to remove the restriction off these reserves, which thus passed into the possession of private persons who had this special information and could use this powerful influence. Such reserves, if sold at all, should have been open to the whole public ; and it was a breach of trust to allow valuable blocks to be acquired by private bargains in this way. It was unfair to the public, who were entitled to buy in open competition ; and unfair also to the natives, in not getting the best price in the open market. These reserves were in the first instance set apart for the progeny of the present natives ; and the course pursued by the Government in reference to such reserves was wrong in every way. In the last year upwards of 20,000 acres of these reserved lands were sold ; and how many of the people at large were aware that such laud was open for sale ? The Native Minister had not provided against this evil system by a clause in his new Bill, and to that extent he had failed in his duty. Hon. Mr BRYCE sympathised to a large extent with the hon. gentleman, and would not object to a clause being introduced into the new Bill with reference to these reserves. As to the 20,000 acres sold during the past year, those lands were not of this character. One block in the Tauranga district absorbed most of the 20,000 acres, and was in the position of ordinary native land. It was land which had been confiscated, and then restored to natives for good behavior. The hon. gentleman conveyed to the Committee a different impression. Mo3t of that Tauranga land was dense bush which the Maoris could make no use of.

Sir G. GREY repeated again that those lands were reserves which the natives could not alienate without the consent of the Government. Those reserves, having been sold, who among the public was aware of the fact ? None but an individual acquaiutsd with the peculiar conditions could have got those lands in this private manner. Let. every man in the colony have fair-play in the bidding for native land in the open market. Those reserves, if sold at all, should have been surveyed and advertised in the usual public manner. The Native Minister should have put that provision in his own Bill, though a 3 he now consented to it, a great point had been gained. . Hon. Mr BRYCE pointed out that the hon. gentleman was two years in office and did not propose any such regulation of these native reserves. However, he was entitled to the fullest credit of having brought the matter forward now.

Sir G. GREY had prepared a Bill containing that prevision just before he left office. He believed no reserves were dealt with by his Government in the same manner as the present Minister had dealt with native reserves.

Hon. Mr BRYCE said reserves had been so dealt with by the previous Government.

Mr DE LAUTOUR said there was now no such thing as a native reserve which was absolutely inalienable. All the owners interested in a block standing in the name of ten grantees should be declared to be also trustees, in order to prevent the ten grantees from disposing of such blocks. The Native Minister had only to ask the power, aud the House would give it him.

Mr KELLY wished to see all native lauds dealt with by or through the Government in the same manner as Crown lands. If native lands were open for sale, let them be sold only through the Government, by public competition, and not sold by private bargain. As to one of the large blocks mentioned by Mr Macandrew, near Stratford, Mr Kelly had done his best to induce the Grey Government to purchase that block at 2s 6d an acre, the natives being willing to sell. But the Grey Government would not listen to his suggestion. He objected to the Government withdrawing from the purchase of native land?. Mr MOSS said the purchasers of the Patetere block knew that the main road to the Hot Springs would have to go through that land ; and it was a fact that the A.C-’s had been engaged for months in.making that road through private land so acquired. If portions of that block had been held back by Government, what had been since done with that portion ? The Government ought to get clear of native lands altogether. The attempt to deal with native land at Rotorua had been greatly mismanaged. Mr STEVENS argued that if private purchase of native lands was to be stopped, the Government would shut out a very large capital which was ready to be applied in developing the North Island. In that case it would be necessary to borrow large sums for the Government to do what they prevented private capitalists from doing. After further remarks, the vote of £72,000 for native land purchases was passed. GOLDFIELDS ROADS. Discussion took place in Committee as to roads in goldfield districts having special votes put down for them, contrary to the Treasurer’s previous statement, that no new votes for roads or bridges were proposed in this year’s estimates, all such works having to be assisted under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act. Hon. Mr ROLLESTON explained that £IOO,OOO had been appropriated out of loan to assist the development of goldfields, and as this money had to be spent for that purpose during three years, sums were put down to various necessary roads on goldfields. Some Opposition members then contended that these sums were to be spent only in districts represented by Government supporters. Mr FISH said he would divide the House on every item that showed an increase on the uuexpended amount voted last year. After several divisions on detail?, the whole vote of £39,000 for roads was passed without reduction. Waterworks on goldfields were discussed over an hour, and then voted without reduction, the total being £21,000. In class 9, telegraph extension, £27,190 was voted.

In class 10, judicial public buildings, division was taken on Mr Allwright’s motion to reduce the vote of £5,000 for Wanganui new gaol by £3,000, the nnmbers being 19 for and 20 against reduction. A further division was then taken for reducing the amount by £I,OOO, the numbers being 20 for and 17 against reduction. The item was thus reduced to £4,0C0. Division was taken on a motion to omit an item of £2OOO towards purchasing site for new gaol at Dunedin, the item being retained. The total vote for these buildings, £35,350, was passed. Vetefor postal and telegraph offices, £31,050, was passed. Regret was expressed that no provision was made for a new Government printing office in Wellington.

Vote of £2050' for Customs offices at Picton and Oamaru was passed. £4300 for survey offices, &c., and £60,000 for lunatic asylums throughout the colony were passed ; also, £4OOO for hospitals, £SOO for quarantine stations, £70,800 for school buildings, £5500 for Parliament Buildings, £4OO for Wellington Time-ball Observatory, and £SO for Auckland Observatory. This completed class 10. Mr FISH protested that to go on longer, it being now ten minutes to 3 o’clock, would be burking discussion. He moved to report progress.

TREASURER said that were going on very nicely, and hoped the Public Works Estimates would be completed.

Mr MONTGOMERY urged adjournment, as the remaining estimates dealt with harbor works.

At a quarter-past three the discussion on Mr Fish’s motion was proceeding, with a prospect of another hour’s sitting. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. TUESDAY, AUGUST 14. The Speaker took the Chair at 2.30 p.m. Mr G. R. JOHNSON, without notice, desired to ask the Government if certain returns ordered by the Chamber respecting the Bankruptcy Bill were ready for presentation. The PREMIER would cause inquiries to be made relative to the matter. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were read a first time : —The Corrupt Practices Prevention. Act Amendment Bill, 1881 ; the Licensing Act, 1881, Amendment Bill ; the Coroners Act Amendment Bill, 1867 ; Wellington Land and Harbor Board Act Amendment Bill, and the Chattels Security Bill. Mr CHAMBERLIN moved that a return be laid upon the table showing the number of women in the colony employed as barmaids. The PREMIER opposed the motion, as the information asked for could not be obtained from the Government officers, and it would be unusual for Government officers to go round to the various publichouses in the colony and seek for the information required by the hon. member. The motion was lest. THE ANNEXATION BILL. On the motion for the third reading of this Bill, Mr J. C. RICHMOND deprecated the personal attack which had been made upon him by a certain hon. member during the motion for the second reading. With regard to the Bill itself, he considered that it did not set forth the idea of the Council, as almost unanimously agreed to some short time since. He failed to see that the colony was at present iu a position to enter into the annexation of the islands of the South Pacific.

In fact, there was only one island of the group, if so it might be called, that would benefit New Zealand by annexatiou, and that was Australia, and he did not presume that the colony sought to annex that continent. He characterised the Bill as a piece of jingoism. Sir G. WHITMORE faded to see why the hon. member, who had just resumed his seat, presented such a determined opposition to the ■ Bill. He desired to assure the hon. gentleman that he did not mean to be iu the least degree 1 personal in a recent speech made on the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was a harmless one. being only permissive in its character. Dr. GRACE, believing that the Bill would, if passed into law, prove disastrous to the colony, moved, as an amendment to the motion, that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr MANTELL attached no importance to the Bill, the provisions of which he considered somewhat anomalous. He thought that it would be worth while to recommit the Bill, if even only for the purpose of correcting the bad English contained in it. He should support the amendment. The House divided on the question, that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question, with the following result : Aye?, 25 ; noes, 10. The original motion was carried, and the Bill was passed. CROWN GBANTS BILL. ThePREMIRR explained the amendments made by the House of Representatives, which were agreed- to. THE BANKRUPTCY BILL. Mr OLIVER, in moving the second reading of this Bill, remarked that the present i bankruptcy law was eminently unsatisfactory to everybody, with the exception, perhaps, of the debtor, and not only in the colonies, but also in the United Kingdom, the idea appeared to be in favor of abolishing bankruptcy laws altogether. The Bill before the House provided for the punishment of fraudulent debtors, aud the better distribution of the assets in insolvent estates. The Bill conferred on the official assignee, a Government officer, not only the power to distribute the assets in the estate brought under his control, but also provided the function of inquiring into the past business caieer of insolvents. Acting in conjunction with the assignee, other officials chosen from the creditors would be appointed. The official assignee would be required to to realise promptly on all estates brought under their control, and by the Bill greater powers would be vested in the Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy, and the Judges would thereby be enabled to deal summarily with a fraudulent debtor, being empowered to sentence the debtor to a term of imprisonment not exceeding two years. The Bill also.provided a schedule for charges of solicitors employed in estates. The Bill had received the most careful consideration of a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Legislature, and several suggestions forwarded by Chambers of Commerce and the mercantile community to the Government had been embodied in the Bill. Although the Bill was not to be acknowledged a perfect measure, still he thought it would commend itself as a step in the right direction to hon. members, and he, therefore, confidently moved the second reading of the Bill. Mr WILSON expressed his intention of supporting the second reading, though he reserved to himself the right of proposing certain alterations when the Bill was in Committee. Mr HOLMES thought that, in the event of there being no chance of an estate paying a dividend, it would be useless to administer to it only for the purpose of punishing a fraudulent debtor. However, the Bill commended itself to him as a step in the right direction, and he therefore should support the motion for the second reading. Mr BRANDON considered the Bill as being a great improvement upon the present Act, but there were several minor points he would like to see amended in Committee. Mr REYNOLDS approved of the Bill generally, but he thought the proposed measure scarcely went far enough, as small debtors would not be entitled to the same consideration as were large insolvents. The second redding was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be committed on the next day of sitting. TAUMBTU NATIVE COMMONAGE BILL. This Bill was committed, and, having been reported without amendments, passed all the final stages. CRIMINAL CODE BILL. On the motion that the Bill be committed, a discussion arose, the opinion of the Council being that it would be better to defer the passage of the Bill till next session. On the motion of M?r CHAMBERLIN, the debate was adjourned to the following day. CHRISTCHURCH CATHEDRAL-SQUARE BILL. The Council divided ou the question, “ That the Speaker leave the chair for the purpose of going into Committee on this Bill,” with the following result :—Ayes, 19 ; noes, 10. The House went into Committee on the Bill. Some slight opposition was evinced to the schedules, and at 5 o’clock the Council adjourned for dinner. EVENING SITTING. The Committee resumed at 7.30 p.m., when the Christchurch Cathedral Square Bill was further considered. The Bill was reported without amendments. Mr ROBINSON mov©l, as an amendment to the motion, that the Bill be read a third time that day six mouths. He objected to the Standing Orders being overridden as was attempted ou the present occasion, and as no possible good could follow from passing the Bill during the present session, he hoped the amendment would be carried. After discussion, the third reading was agreed to on the voices. The Council adjourned at 8.5 p.m. to the next day. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 15. REPORT. Dr. POLLEN brought up the report of the Committee on the Waimate High School Bill. The second reading was made an order for the next day of sitting. TERAWHITI GOLD. Mr CHAMBERLIN referred to the retorted cake of gold from the Terawhiti goldfield, the result of first crushing of the Golden Crown Co. He presumed that the cake had, by being placed upon the table, become the property of the Council. Sir G. S. WHITMORE agreed with the hon. gentleman who had just resumed his seat. He presumed that the cake of gold had been presented by the shareholders of the Golden Crown Co., as a sort of solatium, in view of the honoraria of hon. members being withdrawn. (Laughter and cheers.)

EAST COAST GRIEVANCES. Sir G. S. WHITMORE asked the Hon. thePremier whether the Government will favorably consider the petition of the settlers, of Tolago Bay and East Coast, who have no road, railroad, or harbor to give them access to their homes, and who have asked to have an extension of the telegraph along the coast as a mode of communication with the rest of the colony '? The PREMIER, who had only just seen the question on the Order Paper, replied that he would cause inquiries to be instituted, with a view to ascertain the cost of the different works' referred to in the motion. THE STANDING; orders. Mr OLIVER moved, “ That so much of the Standing Orders relating to local Bills be suspended as will enable the Masterton and Grey-To-'n 1 ! kands Management Acts Amendment Bill to be proceeded with.” - i’OLLiEiN was 0 j- opinion that the Standing Orders should he rigidly complied with in all instances wherein petitions or> Bills were concerned. After discussion, the Council divided on the motion with the following result -.—Ayes 21 - noes, 11. The motion was carried. ’ ’ SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time : —Pharmacy Act Amendment Bill, to be committed on Friday next: Invercargill Reserves Exchange Vesting and Empowering Bill to be committed on F riday next; ’ MINING COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Council went into Committee on this Bill, which, with unimportant and verbal amendments in clause 8, was reported, and the third reading was made an order for the following day. MASTERTON AND GREYTOWN LANDS MANAGEMENT ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. Mr OLIVER, in moving the second reading of the Bill, stated that the Bill sought to rectify an error in the present Act, with a view to bringing an acre which had not been included in the present Act under the provisions of the Act. The Bill had been discussed in public meetings in the localities interested, and was very generally accepted as a wholesome measure, and therefore he thought no opposition would be made to the motion. Dr. POLLEN thought that the Council had not been put in full possession of the facts of the case. However, as the Government had for some reason or another taken charge of the Bill, he supposed that it would be no use further attempting to oppose the Bill. Sir G. S. WHITMORE considered that as the Local Bills Committee had recommended the passing of the Bill, it was the duty of the Council to agree to the motion. He had not opposed the Bill at any earlier stage simply because he did not consider that the Standing Orders of the Council would have been suspended. • After further discussion, the motion for the second reading was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be committed on the following day. CHATTELS SECURITY BILL. The PREMI EE, in-moving the second reading of the Bill, remarked that the proposed measure provided for the prevention of frauds in connection with bills of sale. Mr BRANDON, although not opposing the motion for the second reading, pointed out that in clause 9 a misapprehension might occur, inasmuch as it was not intended that the Bill should come into operation until Ist January, 1884. The PREMIER said that when the Bill was in Committee an amendment in the direction indicated might be introduced. The motion for the second reading was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to he committed on the next day of sitting. THE BANKRUPTCY BILL. The Council went into Committee on this Bill. Clauses 1 to 30 were agreed to without amendment. On clause 31 an'unimportant amendment was agreed to. Clauses 32 to 39 were passed as printed. Mr OLIVER moved the exicisonof clause 40, dealing with the appointment of auditors of accounts in bankruptcy. Motion agreed to. Clauses 42, 43, and 45 were verbally amended. Clause 51 was expunged. Clauses 52 and 53 were passed, and progress was reported, leave being given to sit again on the following day. The Council at 4.55 adjourned to Thursday. HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. WEDNESD AyT AUGUST lli. The late sitting of the previous evening extended far into the morning hours. The Government wished to complete the voting of estimates for public works, while some’ members of the Opposition objected strongly to continue the sitting, a motion to report progress being made shortly before 3 o’clock a.m. The votes then under, consideration being for harbor works, ou which some discussion was to be expected, the Government consented, at half-past 3, to report progress. The- House then adjourned till Wednesday evening, omitting the usual afternoon sitting. EVENING SITTING. WATER-RACE MANAGEMENT. ' Mr DE LAUTOUR moved the second reading of the Mount Ida Water-race Trust , Act, 1878, Amendment Bill, whicH was to increase the popular element on the Board. The Minister of Mines raised no objection, and the ■ second reading was agreed to. Mr MACANDREW suggested;shat the Bill might be committed for MondaVAnfixt';; but Major ATKINSON said Mond|||§§pia be required for Government. Bill i was committed for Wednesday next. NATIVE LAND BILL. Sir G. GREY deferred till Wednesday next his motion for second reading of the Native Lands Acts Amendment Bill. He understood the Native Minister intended to embody a por--1 , tion of this Bill in his own measure on the subject; and in order not to embarrass him, the hon. member deferred the present Bill. VOTE TO PUBLIC LIBRARIES. Mr SMITH moved, in Committee of the Whole, that L6OOO be appropriated this year for public libraries. This vote had passed last year, and as no reduction had been made in other branches of expenditure this year, he did not see why the Government should have omitted to renew this vote on the year’s Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped the Committee would hesitate bsfore passing this vote, in the present state of the country’s finance. This was one of the directions in which expenditure might be retrenched without incon- . venience. He would have to divide the Committee against the motion, and moved an amendment that the Chairman do leave the chair. Mr MONTGOMERY said this was a small vote, which was on the Estimates, last year, and would do much good in keeping people from congregating at worse places than libraries. . ~, , Mr DUNCAN said injustice would be done to some country libraries if assistance were not extended.

Mr O’UALLA.GHAK had supported a vote of L6OOO last year for public libraries, but regarded a repetition of that vote in our present finances as extravagance which could not be justified, and was becoming shocking. He did hot consider novels a healthy kind of educa : tion to be promote i at the public expense. Mr HURSTHOUSE o oposed the vote, and said it was misleading to plead that the colony was in as good a position financially as last y< Mr SHEPHARD supported the vote as a necessary assistance to young persons who needed something to read after leaving the primary schools. In scattered districts people were not able to combine for properly stocking the shelves of country libraries. He defended novel reading as an instructive kind of literature, reflecting the manners and customs of the time. But novels were not the only kind of books purchased for libraries. That bulky though not very amusing kind of literature called “Hansard” was,not suitable or attractive enough for young people, who must be driven to publichouses to a large extent it puDlic libraries were shut up. , Mr S. T. GEORGE supported the vote, and said the people in the North did not go in for novels, but for agricultural works, and other kinds of literature, lhe system of dis tributing the vote last year was not satisfac tory, as most of the money went to town libraries. He would like to see the motion amended so as to apply solely to country Sheehan said the most potent kind of "literature for sending people to sleep was Hansard. Public libraries were a necessary adjunct to public education. They should not only teach the child in schools, but educate the man in public libraries. The Provincial Councils encouraged libraries more than the Central Government did. The stock of public instruction and amusement should be increased by this vote to libraries, which was a good and honest V °Mr WYNN-WILLIAMS would vote for a a smaller sum, and for country districts only. He knew no better way of applying a small sum than this. , . Mr MACANDREW would vote for assistance to libraries, though he maintained his former opinion that the country was going into public and private extravagance. Could not a thousand or two be saved in printing larliainetary papers and reports, and spend the money on libraries. They thought nothing of spending L3OOO on electric light, while berrrudmng a small sum to country libraries. _ Mr FISH said the Treasurer had admitted that the country’s finances were in an unsound state, and this was due to the reckless extravagances of the Treasurer and his friends. Every honest attempt to resist reductions on other votes had been resisted by the Government, while he knew of no vote which could do more public good than this. He agreed that large centres of population did not require assisting in this direction, while such assistance to country districts would be of real service. If the House had shown a serious desire to reduce other extravagant votes, he would not have supported this vote. Hon. Major ATKINSON would withdraw his proposal in order that the suggested amendment might be moved for restricting the vote to country libraries. Sir G. GREY preferred to take a division on the main proposal, on the ground that the eountry’s declared policy was to educate a free people, of which education these publie libraries should form a part. The Treasurer had determined that this system of education should not advance beyond elementary instruction in schools. The Treasurer was applying a system of taxation which would compel people, through sheer poverty, to put their children to labor at an early date. If the proposal to reduce expenditure by Lso,ooohad been agreed to, how many such votes as this L6OOO * could have been applied to the education and benefit of the people in various ways ? Amendment for Chairman to leave the chair was then negatived on the voices. Mr WYNN WILLIAMS moved that the sum of L6OOO be reduced by L2OOO, with a view of limiting the vote to libraries in country di MrMAC ANDREW objected to this amendment, as the libraries in town and country should be equally assisted, and the sum of L6OOO was not too mueh. Mr FITZGERALD argued as to the necessity of assisting public libraries, as a necessary machinery for instructing the manhood of the country in their duties to the State. If the vote were restricted to country libraries, the centres of mining population on the We3t Coast would lose the advantage of this vote. Mr WYNN-WILLIAMS would, it allowed, withdraw his amendment for reducing the amount, and modify it so as to exclude the l ai The "amendment was withdrawn, to make room for a fresh one. Mr O’CALLAGHAN could no longer believe that Mr Maeandrew was serious in preaching economy, while supporting a vote of this kind. Mr FERGHS hoped the vote would not be distributed in the same manner as last year, the result being that out of 270 applications, seven libraries in large towns (not including Dunedin Athenaeum) got one-sixth of the whole amount. The large cities could well afford to rate themselves for public libraries ; and he would support the vote if applying only -to country districts. J Mr BARRON would like to exclude all y towns having over 5000 inhabitants. Hon. Mr DICK said difficulties surrounded this vote in whatever way it was put. He had considerable sympathy with the object of this vote. Its distribution last year was anything, but satisfactory, the effect being that those libraries which were in the best position got the most money. Wellington and Oamaru together had got nearly as much as the whole of°Westland ; so that the money last year had gone mainly to feed the fat. Wellington had got L 222, and in order to do that, the Athenmum members had resolved to do just as little as would entitle them to the grant. The Christchurch College had got the next largest share. Dunedin got nothing from this vote, there being a spirit of independence which made Dunedin a pattern to the colony. (Mr Seddon : and it has produced a stonewaller.) As to the limit of 5000 population, that hard and fast line would not do. There would be a difficulty in finding out the actual population for this purpose. He felt a little uneasy as to the character of the_ books purchased for public libraries ; and if this vote were passed, he would propose that those libraries applying for grants should furnish a catalogue of their books, so that in future this House would have a means of seeing how the public grant was spent. This would probably make the Committees more careful in selecting books for purchase by public money. With this condition, he knew of no better way of spending some L4OOO on public libraries. Mr SHRIMSKI entertained the House with a spirited defence of Oamaru against some remarks of the Minister of Education, to the effect that Oamaru received as much from last year’s vote as all the rest of South Canterbury. That town was entitled to special praise for

rating itself highly to carry out public works which had to be done by Government for other places. He would be the last man to exclude Oamaru from a share in this vote. Mr O’CALLAGHAN proposed an amendment to exclude all libraries having an income over LIOO last year, apart from the public vote. He found that 354 libraries received aid last year ; and omitting those having over tIW of income, there would be 322 entitled to this ye Mr SHEEHAN objected to this, but would exclude the four chief cities. Mr MOSS said the amendment would have the effect of reducing the income of some libraries to bring them within the proposed lir Mr W. WHITE suggested that the proportion to be received by any library should be 'HUTCHISON said the city of Auckland could not reasonably claim assistance, after receiving the magnificent gift of books recently made by a member of this House, whose great liberality should be recognised by this House in some way. Wellington, on the strength of receiving its contribution, threw its library and reading-room freely open to the public; whereas, so far from Dunedin doing something more worthy of praise than Wellington, the fact was that Dunedin had not a free library, while Wellington did afford this boon to its population. Mr FISH replied to Mr Hutchison, accusing Wellington of meanness in accepting L 222 of public money for its library. Mr HUTCHISON retorted by accusing Dunedin of stinginess in not providing a free library. A novel was not at all a bad or demoralising form of literature ; and even the Minister of Education might relax the hardness of his studies, and read novels with advantage. It was said he had been seen reading a yellow-backed novel in this House the other night (laughter), though that might have been a mistake. Mr SEDDON supported the vote, as they could afterwards agree as to the mode of its distribution. Mr PEARSON supported the vote if the four chief cities were to be excluded. Hon. Mr DICK said that to limit the grant to certain libraries on the list of last year’s applications, would exclude some libraries formed since then. He would rather support the suggestion to limit the sum to be given to any library. Say not over L4O to any library. Mr W. C. BUCHANAN supported the vote.

Mr PEARSON proposed to report progress, and called for a division, the numbers being 7 for, and 5S against reporting progress. Mr MUNRO said the only effect of limiting the vote to libraries having less than LIOO of income, would he to reduce subscribers. Mr FERGUS said many libraries which received grants last year did not allow the public ta have free access to books, but only to newspapers. They were free libraries only in “Mr WYNN-WILLIAMS urged that the vote should apply to the smaller towns and country districts. He was intensely surprised that Christchurch College, with a large revenue and endowments, had applied for and received so large a sum as it got out of last year’s vote. Licensing Committees were issuing licenses for new publichouses almost at every cross-road in certain country districts. He had seen a license issued by a J.P. for a publichouse actually before the house was built, and there were three licensed houses in the district before. Every encouragement should therebe given to district libraries. He would vote money to assist every working-man’s club for starting a library. If working-men never went to a publichouse, but spent their leisure in libraries, the accumulated wealth of the country in a few years would become fabulous. Better snend money on public libraries, and save some of the money proposed to be spent in extending Parliament Buildings. He would like to exclude from the vote the larger towns, among them such as Invercargill and Wanganui, besides the cities. Mr SWANSON said the Parliamentary library contained many books which could, with advantage, be distributed among the larger centres of population, so that intelligent mechanics might have access to them, which would otherwise be impossible on account of the large price of such books. Instead or granting money,’ the House might follow the old provincial practice of purchasing selected and valuable books, to be lent to libraries at different centres. Text books on agriculture might be supplied to libraries in agricultural dist)rici)S( Hon. Mr DICK asked how many of the libraries so supplied in the Auckland province re turned, the books which had been stamped, when they were no longer locally required. Mr SWANSON replied that the system worked well, and that the stamped books could always be recovered. If this systeih were followed, it would be better than spending public money in purchasing trashy novels. Mr SHRIMSKI said places like Oamaru did not share in votes for universities and public gardens and museums ; therefore they should have help for their libraries. He complained that the Government party, or some of them, were trying to stonewall this vote. Mr J. C. BROWN urged the Committee to decide this question at once, and not allow it to he talked out. Mr GREEN (Dunedin East) argued that there was no principle of equity in confining this vote to libraries in small places. Working men in country places were not in a worss position to purchase hooks than working men in towns. Looking to the voting power of large populations, they should be put in a position to receive education in political.matters, or the nation’s affairs could not be guided aright. It was pure folly to confine this vote to country places. He felt almost, ashamed that there was not a free library or free reading-room in Dunedin. If this colony was to be made equal, to America in inventive skill, the manufacturing centres should be aided in education by free public libraries, combined with gymnasia and baths. Education and amusement thus, combined would be the best cure for larrikinism. Youths were induced to give expression to exuberant animal spirits by “ larrikin ” behaviour in the streets, because no alternative was provided in the shape of proper literature and gymnastic exercises. Hence the import ,nce of fostering public libraries in the large t -wns, where animal temptations were more numerous than in country places. He could not join the strictures on the Wellington Athenaeum, for the change recently made with the object of sharing in the public vote was a useful and beneficial change ; whereas the Dunedin Athenaeum, by not following the same course, remained now a close class club. If the same result followed in Dunedin from the proposed vote, as in Wellington last year, he would esteem it a Major HARRIS complained that Government supporters were trying to talk out this question, and Ministerial supporters had been asked to talk against time. He asked whether Mr Green had not been requested by the Colonial Secretary to make a speech. Mr GREEN denied the imputation, .and said he had previously informed the Minister that he intended to speak. * ■. Mr LEVESTAM supported the vote. Ihere were only two kinds of enjoyment —the one

being intellectual, and the other being the satisfying, of the animal passions. To place intellectual enjoyment beyond the reach of working men and youths, was to.leave them only animal enjoyment. If the liquor traffic were swept away, some other national vice would take its place. Free libraries afforded one of the best means of popular education and intellectual enjoyment. A large number of books in the Parliamentary Library, of which the most valuable part was the. binding, might be spared without loss, and distributed among libraries in the country. If money could not be given, let them have books. Mr IVESS understood that the Government party, in a caucus, had resolved that no other business of private members should be taken that night. This was not carrying out the Government promises made early, in the session, that every facility should be given to private members in forwarding their measures. Many country libraries would be unfairly shut out by the amendment limiting the income to LIOO as qualifying for a share in this vote. Mr WHITAKER said the last member’s remarks l were cool, indeed, when he charged Government members with stonewalling this vote. Most of the talk on • this question had come from members on. the Opposition, side. This was a part of - the important.question of public education ; and the only desire of members on the Government side was to ensure that this vote for public libraries should.be so spent as to meet the approval of a majority of the House. _ Capt. MACKENZIE had not been put up by any party to talk against time. It was the duty of the State to give equal educational facilities in every part of the colony. But as to the present vote, no member had shown where the L6OOO was to come from. As to taxation , CHAIRMAN: You are travelling outside the question. „ .. , Captain MACKENZIE said the tendency of any taxation system was for the burden to fall eventually on those least able to bear .it. He would be surpised if the Government did not, before the close of the session, confess that the revenue was falling off, and ask for a penny or a penny farthing in the pound on the property tax. He wanted to remark on the waste of public money in roads for goldfields. CHAIRMAN : That has nothing to do with this question. That vote is passed. Captain MACKENZIE regretted that the Chairman should bring him up with a round turn in this manner. He could not refer to a vote that had been passed, but wanted to refer to the system in California. (Laughter.) He hoped that the Chairman would not rule that he could not talk of the general trade of the colony. . CHAIRMAN must object to these remarks. Captain MACKENZIE asked the Chairman to tell him what he could talk about, if not about the financial position of the colony.. He would should the Committee that the railway receipts were falling off. CHAIRM AN said this was no part of the present question. Capt. MACKENZIE saw in a misleading financial print that it was the duty of English capitalists to cease lending money to New Zealand. (Laughter.) That was the question, because if the colony could no longer borrow money, where was this L6OOO to come from for public libraries? With increasing taxation; the House should pause before voting money in addition to what the Government considered absolutely necessary for the requirements of the country. He did not know whether the native population were to participate in this vote or not, but their moral training was equally as necessary as that of Europeans. The House should pause before voting this money, and draw the line in order to let the people see that they must rely on themselves more than they had done. Mr PEACOCK objected to have large town populations excluded from participation in this vote. Mr O’CALLAGHAN, replying to Mr W. C. Buchanan, said many returns of libraries sent in last-year had been unfairly manipulated, so as to claim a larger proportion of the vote. In one case the building fund account was included in the reserve. Oamaru, for instance, returned a revenue of L 774 a year.

Colonel TRIMBLE opposed the vote as unnecessary, hut if passed, the vote should be distributed per head of population in each district. Mr WRIGHT would teach the public to be more self-reliant, and would oppose this vote. He replied to some remarks of Mr Ivess relating to Ashburton; and Mr Ivess followed with a pointed retort. Division then taken on the amendment for excluding libraries with incomes exceeding LIOO per annum. Ayes, 14 ; noes, 43. Amendment lost. . Hon. Mr DICK then moved, as an addition to Mr Smith’s motion, “ That the amount he distributed on the same condition as the vote of last session, accept that no library shall receive over L 50.” He would endeavor, when the returns came in, to see that the income was accurately set forth. Mr O’CALLAGHAN objected that the large libraries would absorb most of. this vote, though well able to support themselves. Colonel TRIMBLE would, if the other amendment were not carried, propose that the vote be divided amongst counties and boroughs in proportion to the population of each. Mr O’CALLAGHAN said the vote should he on the condition that each library’s annual account was audited and certified to; no revenue from endowment or building fund, or behest, to be included, in order that no cooked accounts should be admitted. Hon. Mr DICK agreed to that as a condition before distribution. Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped the House would now pass the motion with the addition of the Colonial Secretary’s amendment; and when the vote was proposed in the Supplementary Estimates, a full statement of the conditions would be made. Division then taken on the amendment i Ayes, 35; noes, 16; majority of 19 for the amendment. The motion as' amended was agreed to. ... The House resumed, the resolution was reported, and the House adjourned at 1.23 a.m. till Thursday afternoon.

Erbatum. —In yesterday’s report of Mr Bryce’s remarks on the agreements to purchase native lands by the late Government, he was made to say “The amount agreed to be paid was without exception at the high rate of 7s 6d per acre.” By a typographical error, the word 44 almost ” was omitted, this qualification being necessary to the sense. Errors of this kind are difficult to avoid in reports printed after midnight, when revision is impossible.