Deputations.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 426, 10 April 1880, Page 22

Deputations.

THE WEST COAST RAILWAY.

A deputation, appointed at the meeting of Wednesday evening to wait upon the Government re the West Coast Railway, did so at 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. The deputation, which was headed by his Worship the Mayor, M.H.R., and Mr. W. H. Levin, M.H.R., was received by the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer (Major Atkinson) and the Hon. the Minister of Lands (Mr. W. Rolleston). His WoKSHir THE Mayob introduced the deputation, and briefly explained their object, saying that some of them would be able to enter more fully into the matter, particularly Mr. Evenden, who had thought it carefully over, and had a scheme drawn up, some portions of which, however, the Government might possibly think were not of a practicable character. Doubtless, the Government knew what had passed at the public meeting, and had made themselves acquainted with the resolutions. He would now ask Mr. Evenden to explain the scheme. Mr. Evenden said the deputation had not waited on the Government with any attempt to bring more pressure to bear upon them than had already been brought in the matter of constructing this railway, for they knew the great difficulty which existed in the way of getting the money for it, and that the Government were not desirous of its being: delayed. It would, he presumed, be unnecessary for him to go into the whole question, as he had no doubt the Government were fully acquainted with what had been done at the public meeting.

The Colonial Treasurer : Yes ; if the papers reported it correctly, Mr. Evenden. Yes ; quite correctly. Mr. Evenden went on to say that at that

meeting papers were provided at the door for those to sign who were willing to take part in the scheme ; and he had with him a list of about 100 names which had been signed. Besides which, he had had men at his house, before and since, wishing to sign, and signifying their desire to join the movement. He would now hand that list of names to the Government. He had nothing more to say, as the whole matter had been well and fully reported in the papers. The Hon. Major Atkinson said he was glad to hear Mr. Evenden say the deputation, and those on behalf of whom they attended, <wee satisfied the Government had no desire to delay or impede the making of the railway to the West Coast. But they were not in a position to carry on the work—although no person in Wellington knew the necessity of it more than they did—on account of the state of the finances of the colony, which he was sorry to say was yet believed in even yet by the general public. As a matter of fact, they would have much greater difficulty in carrying on the business of the country from this cause than was generally apposed. The representations made by the Government last session were better than things had turned out to be, and this would account for any apparent hanging back there might have been on the part of the Government in the prosecution ■of this and other works. He desired to put this forward because some people said the Government were holding back simply because they did not wish to bring this work to a successful issue, while the real reason was they had been obliged to hold their hands and to be as careful as it was possible to be with the finances of the colony. He would say with regard to the proposed scheme of Mr. Evenden, without having it before him except through the medium of the newspapers, it seemed to him it was not a practicable one. There would be very little left for men with families who received their ten shillings a week with rations. There would iodeed, in such cases, be nothing to hold back, as suggested by the scheme. Then he should like to point out that the effect of such a scheme would be to cause great complications in the accounts, of all descriptions. It would, too, be an infringement of the land law, and he was afraid the scheme would be neither satisfactory to the people—that was, to the Parliament—nor to those who were actually engaged uponit. Of course with regard tothe West Coast railway the scheme was impracticable, because the Government had no land available for settlement, such as ought to be given to men under such circumstances—for to give them inferior land would be only making their ruin more certain. The Government were taking every step that was possible to open up land on the deferred payment system whereever works were likely to go on, or where they were going on ; and he would suggest that it would be much better for the working men to take up land at such places on their own account under the land laws of the Colony, than to think about this assisted settlement scheme along the line of the West Coast railway. The Government, however, would be prepared to further consider the matter if it were submitted to them in writing ; but for his own part he thought it would be better for the men to take up the land in the ordinary way on the deferred payment system. The scheme proposed could be neither satisfactory to the Government, to the Parliament, nor to the working men themselves. J '

Mr. Evenden would explain with regard to the balance available towards the purchase of the land, that in the case of married men with families they would not require as many rations as they had children, but each man would be the judge for himself of how many he would want. There would be very few who would not have a balance left, though the single men would of course come off best. Under any circumstances he did not think the Government would be likely to have to pay away more than a pound or two and twenty shillings a week for rations. He had submitted something of this kind in the way

of being supplied with rations by the Government, to some of the men who had been • working on the Wadestown railway, and they had at once assented to the scheme and expressed their desire to take up land on such conditions. Major Atkinson said without going into the question of how far the Government would be justified in giving eight shillings a day—and they must bear in mind that that rate of wages was for picked men used to the work, who would probably be very few compared with the others, —they must make allowance for wet weather, and if they took the winter with the summer they would find that their earnings would not be more than five shillings a day on the average ; then if they took an average of three rations, they would find the workmen—the married men at least—would have nothing left, while the single men would have all their trouble for nothing. He was afraid the scheme would not answer. It was not so much the complications that would result from it as the alteration in the land laws that must ensue before it could be carried into effect, and on the whole he did not think it would act. Mr. Evenden remarked that if it was impossible for men in regular employment, supplied by the Government with rations, and making a certainty of eight and ninepence a week clear—if it was impossible under those circumstances for them to pay anything off this land, he could not see the possibility of being able to repay the Government for land on the deferred payment system under ordinary circumstances. The Mayob reminded them that there was one element had been omitted, and that was the reported difficulty on the question of the locality of the land itself. Was there any land along the proposed line of railway on which the Government could locate the men ? The Hon. Major Atkinson : Ihere is practically none. Mr. Gbey : But it can be acquired. The Hon. Major Atkinson : I wish the eputation would let us know how. We have een some years engaged in this sori; of thing ' nd we know the difficulties with which the

overnment are beset. There is no difficulty

n acquiring the land wanted for the railway itself ; the difficulty is in getting land for settlement along the line. We have authority to take land for a railway, but we have no such authority to take it for settlement.

The Hon. Mr. Rolleston : The 'land which would be worth settling upon would be beyond Paikakariki. There would, therefore, be no advantages of occupation until you get beyond that place.

The Mavob said the meeting contemplated the railway being begun from that end, and there were a thousand acres of available land somewhere thereabouts.

The Hon. Major Atkinson : It is forest !and.

Mr. Levin :

There are a thousand acres a

:ew miles from Paikakariki,

The Mayob : That might be a location for some of them. It would be possible to make a beginning there. The Hon. Major Atkinson : No Government could think of entertaining a scheme like that—to put down a single settlement on a thousand acre block.

The Mayob : This scheme supposes that by the time the railway is done the men will have got their land into such a state of cultivation that they will then be able to provide for their own maintenance.

The Hon. Major Atkinson : That is quite impossible. I have had great experience in the matter of settlement of the laud. In my part of the country—l refer to Taranaki—the settlers in a small way all depend upon getting a tew days' work of some sort or another in the course of the year. Captain Mooke thought if the people once settled down upon the land they would not look so much for outside work. He knew that when he came first to the colony in 1840 they had no one to employ them, and they set to work and did for themselves. They got a piece of land and went to work upon it. They commenced in a small way, and now he could point to fifty people who were well off who commenced in that way. He did not see that these people were so degenerated that they could not do the same if they could get the land at a moderate price. He thought the Government should give the men the option of leasing the land at a moderate rental, and they would soon find they could get along. The men with families could club together, and could raise a cow or a goat or two, and so would be nearly able to support their families, and their spare time would be devoted to improving their ground, and getting some return for it, and taking their chance among the j settlers of getting a day or two's work now j and again, and so they would get on. He held it was a great mistake to bring a ship load of people out here who did not know I what to do, and who could turn their hands to j nothing if there was anything for them; but i il they were on land it would be different—a ! few families would club together and would manage to get on. The early settlers in New Zealand had to do that. He could point to scores of people who, from such small beginnings, were now in affluence. Indeed, it would be interesting to trace their pedigrees. They commenced in a humble way, and every year found themselves better off. He thought if it were possible to lease the land to the people and let them take their chance of getting a day's work now and then they would manage to get on as others had done before them, and would be very glad to go. The Hon. Major Atkinson would inform the deputation that there were about a hundred thousand acres of land in New Zealand that were now open for selection upon the deferred payment system.

Captain Moobe said this did not seem to be generally known. He thought the people would try to help themselves if they got a chance. It was not to be expected that the Government could take the unemployed by the hand and say, " here is money, and labor, and land"—it was quite an inconsiderate sort

of thing to suppose so. He had been used to trust to himself, and if put down on the coast in any part of New Zealand, he would undertake to say he would not starve, or let his family starve either. The Hon. Major Atkinson : This is a different case.

Captain Mooee : Yes, lam aware of it. I am only throwing these remarks out suggestively. Major Atkinson : This is the principle on which we have gone in employing what are called the unemployed. We have taken them on certain works at low wages, as we only think it our duty to find them and their families subsistence. Men can then take up land, and if they have families, the Government send them on to them. This scheme proposed now to us places altogether too much reliance on the Government, and my experience tells me that such schemes have failed everywhere. Land is being laid off on the deferred-payment system in different parts of the country, and it is quite open for the people to take it up. Captain Moore said it seemed to be the feeling among the people that if they could only get on to the land they would be able to get along ; and he himself felt sure they would. He had seen the sjme thing before in this colony, and in the early days of Australia. The unemployed seemed to be under the impression that it was impossible to get any land in this district (Wellington), at all events without paying such a price for it as placed it out of their reach. He felt sure that if they could get the land on good terms—say a twenty years lease at a fair and moderate rental, it would be the best thing that could happen to them. He did not see why they could not cultivate land here as well as in other, places. The Mayob observed that it was a very important point of the deputation to get the land as an auxiliary to making the West Coast railway. The Hon. Major Atkinson repeated that they would see the general scheme was impracticable, but if Mr. Evenden would call upon him he would be very happy to go into the whole subject fully with him. The Government desired quite as much as the deputation could do, the settlement of the land, and the getting of the people out of the town. That was one of their cardinal points.

Mr. Evenden could not see that it was more difficult to give rations to those who might be working on the line of railway than it was to give to those working on the Waimate Plains.

The Hon. Major Atkinson said all sorts of complications would arise and different lots of accounts would have to be kept. If the railway was wanted and the Government had the money it would be made, but if the people wanted land they could buy it, but to say that the men working on the line should put a portion of their wages into land, whether they wanted it or not, did not seem to be a wise thing to do. Land to be sold on deferred payments was being set aside in all parts of the Colony, and could be purchased on a system of payment extending over ten years. It meant, indeed, ten years'. lease. If Mr. Evenden, or indeed any of the others interested in this matter, would go to him, he thought he could show them that their scheme would not work. They were very successful in settling a large number (of * people in Taranaki—people who had taken up land on the deferred payment system, but with no agreement to work, | although occasional work was open to them at , six shillings a day. Those people lived at a small cost, and were all now fairly able to support themselves. He would be very happy to talk the whole matter over with Mr. Evenden, if he would call upon him—say on Monday morning. The deputation then thanked the Government, and withdrew.

THE FIRE BRIGADES, THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, AND THE CITY T^OUNCIL.

A deputation from the Wellington Fire Brigades waited upon his Worship the Mayor ,and Councillors Brown and Danks on Saturday morning on the subject of the resolution passed by the City Council to discontinue its I monetary support to the brigades—the resolu- | tion having been passed in consequence of a I letter received by the Council from the fire insurance offices intimating that they had resolved to reduce their share of maintaining the brigades from one-half to one-third, and that only upon certain conditions, the particulars of which the public are already acquainted with. The deputation consisted of Captain Moss, of the Central Fire Brigade, and Superintendent Whiteford, of the Wellington Brigade, and Captain Wilson and Lieutenant Crawford.

Captain Moss, who acted as spokesman, said the deputation had waited upon his Worship (Councillors Brown and Danks were not then present, not coming in until a few minutes afterwards), to learn something definite from him, if it was possible to do so, in regard to the letter received from the Corporation on the subject of the withdrawal of their subsidy from the brigades. They thought in the first instance that the Corporation itself had been rather peremptory in their instructions to the brigades in the reference to the immediate stopping of their supplies, and not giving them something like a timely notice. As the Council must be aware, the brigades had bills to meet which they could not do without money.

The Mayor : Pardon me a moment ; have you not been paid by the Council up to the 31st of March ?

Captain Moss thought it was so ; still they had looked to their forthcoming contributions at the end of the present quarter, as they had had to pay off certain arrears of debt with the subsidy just received. Further, they did not know what the intentions of the Insurance Companies were, nor did they know what they had to do with those companies. They considered themselves under the Corporation, and were willing to receive suggestions from that

body, but not from the Insurance Companies. The impression seemed to prevail with some of the companies that they were too efficient in putting out fires, but he might say that their services had always been looked upon as satisfactory by the public and the Corporation. (Captain Moss here read over that portion of the Insurance Companies' letter to the Council having reference to the brigade being under a single authority.) Well they said at once that the brigades were under a single authority. On the occasion of a fire they were as good as under the command of one superintendent, only the superintendent in whose ward the fire was was the fire inspector, and had full control of the brigades. With regard to the number of members, considering the men were all volunteers, and had no expenses either from the Insurance Companies or the Corporation, that must be immaterial to the former ; they (the deputation) thought the greater the numbers the more the efficiency. They now asked the Mayor what was their present standing. They had their own draft at the bank, aiid a meeting would take place on Monday night to consider their position. They were very anxious that the question should be decided by the Council previous to that. They considered that part of the answer sent by the Corporation was a very fair one. In none of the other provinces had the insurance companies anything to do with the working of the brigades, and he (Captain Moss) was of opinion that the same state of things should prevail here. It seemed to him that there was a great deal of selfinterest exhibited in this matter. The losses in Wellington from fire had been considerably less than in any other of the cities of New Zealand. In fact, during the past year there had been no losses except on one occasion, when it was no fault of the brigade. He was quite prepared to reply to any question which his Worship might wish to put to him. The Mayob need hardly tell tbem that he took the warmest interest in the Brigades, and wished to see them comfortable and efficient in every particular. This he believed they were to a great extent. In reference to their present standing they had, at the present moment, no standing whatever. The City Council—that is, the corporation—had entirely dispensed with their services from the 31st March last. They had ceased to have anything to do with them. He did n,ot say it was like the law of the Medes and Persians, which could not be revoked ; and he could give them no other answer at present. The City Council took up the impression that the fire companies were

assuming a dictatorial tone with the question

of the Fire Brigades. Under all the circumstances, the Council felt it incumbent upon them to take up a certain position, which they had doneJ For himself, he had one very strong feeling in regard to the whole of this matter, and that was, that things would not go on as they ought to do until the Corporation itself insured every house in the |town, and had its own Brigade, allowing the insurance companies to go further afield for business. Probably j they would say that this was Utopian. The insurance companies seemed to think they were conferring a great favor on the Corporation and the Fire Brigades by their small contribution of money paid annually towards the expenses of the brigade. Now the Council did not think they were entitled to assume this position, hence the action they had now taken. It was not likely, however, that the Council' \ would continue to occupy that position. They owed a duty to all citizens in regard to the safety of the city, and that duty would not be neglected. He thought it might do good if this stoppage took place for a time; until they , saw their way, and felt that they could come to better arrangements. With regard to there being one recognised head, he believed it would be best that that should be so,' and the Council would have taken up the same position had there not been half a dozen fire inspectors appointed a short time ago. Captain Moss : That is nothing to do with the fire brigades. The Mayob : I know that, but still they are employed in connection with them. Captain Moss said the action of the insurance companies was very important, and the fire brigades must make a stand. It was true there was nothing due by the Council to the brigades until next quarter. But in the mean time they had a horse to feed and other expenses to pay. Just a day or two before they had received this notice they had anticipated a portion of their next quarter's subsidy, and now they found themselves in the position of having nothing to anticipate. It simply came to this : that they must knock off everything and close the doors. He did not wish to use any threats, but he did not know what else was to be done. The brigade was perfectly • satisfied to go on as before. The only persons • who interfered with them were the insurance companies, whom they did not recognise. It seemed to him that the brigades were too efficient, and put out fires too quickly. As one of the shareholders had said, " What we want to set us up and put us to rights is a good rousing fire." The Mayob : He was joking. Captain Moss : Then I understand from the Council that they don't intend to support the brigade in future ? The Mayor : I told you the Council have done with you, according to the resolution they passed the other evening. The Town Clebk : But it was passed by 5 to 4—a majority of one. Councillor Brown : I question if it would have passed but that the Council evidently wanted to bring this thing to an issue. I have no doubt we shall have to consider the matter over again. :£ Captain Moss protested against the brigads being dictated to by a body who had no power over them, as was the case with the insurance companies. It might suit them to have a brigade of their own, purely for the protection of the buildings that were insured, and of no other, he had no doubt.

Captain Wilson said if it was not for the reason of looking after premises that were not insured, he should not be a fireman. His ob-

ject was to save the property of those who could not afford to insure.

Councillor Danks said he fully endorsed the action of the Council, as the present condition of things was very unsatisfactory to the whole of that body. The Mayor thought the matter might not be settled for some time yet, and he thought he might say that the Council would favorably consider the payment of any of the accounts which might be pressing upon the brigade, inasmuch as they were incurred on property which virtually belonged to the Council. He did not think that any person having a just debt on the brigades would be kept out of it. Superintendent Whiteford wished to know in what position the brigades would be placed in until the matter was settled. Would the Council pay their debts for the next few weeks ?

The Mayor : No ; I wag speaking about the debts incurred before the 31st March.

Captain Moss : I wish to know if the Council entirely agree with the resolution passed by it. The Mayor stated what the voting had been as the Town Clerk had done previously. Captain Wilson said they would certainly have to give their men a month's notice, and then what should they do at the end of the month when they had to settle with them ? The Town Clerk : I might also say that the Council pays the full amount in advance, trusting to get it back from the insurance companies. Captain Moss : As I said before, we don't recognise them. Councillor Brown ; Nevertheless they get the lion's share of the advantage to be derived from you. Captain Moss said he believed the present state of things had arisen in consequence of another body, to whom they had made promises which they had afterwards backed out of. It was stated that the premiums paid in Wellington amounted to £IB,OOO or £20,000 a-year, while the losses had been very minute, and in regard to those the contributions of the companies had been very slight. In no city in New Zealand had the companies made fewer losses than they had in Wellington. The Mayor : The difficulty, I see, is this — What are you going to do pending a settlement of this matter ? It will be a very serious thing if you sell your horses and pay your men off, and yet after the resolution carried by the Council I cannot see what else you are to do.

Councillor Brown thought the insurance agents should pay a share of the brigade's debts, as they gave the Council no notice of their intention to reduce the subsidy. Captain Moss suggested it might meet the case if there were an immediate meeting of the insurance agents with a committee of the Council and of the fire brigades. They did not want to take any unnecessary action, which probably mipht not meet the views of the Council and the citizens at large. As his Worship had pointed out, they must take some action, and therefore it would be as well if the Council would do something of the kind suggested, to see if anything definite could be arrived at before action was taken by the brigade. The Mayor did net see what they could do even if they did meet. Neither did he think it would be becoming of the Council. They had nothing to ask of them, and if there were to be any suggestions, they must come from the other side. As for the Council, it would no doubt do anything it could do for the brigade. He would call a meeting of the Council if they liked, but he did not think they would ask the insurance companies to reconsider the matter.

Captain Moss thought that probably they might all agree to pay the brigade three months' subsidy as they had not given it three months' notice.

The Mayor said that if the brigade sent a letter to the Council to that effect it should be laid before them, and he considered the matter of so much importance that he would call a special meeting of the Council for its consideration. He thought they might submit a list of their debts, though he did not think the Council would be prepared to pay them all. He was of course speaking in the presence of two of the members, and he did not think they would let the just debts of the brigade go unpaid.

After a few words from Councillors Brown and Danks, The deputation thanked his Worship and withdrew. WELLINGTON SMALL FARM 3f ~ ASSOCIATION. A deputation from the directors of the Wellington Working Men's Small Farm Association waited upon the Government at noon on Saturday, to ascertain what arrangements could be made to obtain for the Association a block of about 30,000 acres of land for purposes of settlement. The Hon. Mr. Kolleston, Minister for Lands, and the Hon. Major Atkinson, Colonial Treasurer, were present. The deputation consisted of Messrs. AlOrr, C. Nees, and J. Young, and was attended 'by, Messrs. Levin and Hutchison, M.H.R.'s the city.

Mr Levin briefly introduced the deputation by stating that they represented the Wellington Working Men's Small Farm Association, which had been formed some time ago. The Association had now upon its books from 150 to 200 names of men whom he felt sure would make bona fide settlers and were anxious to occupy land as soon as they could find a suitable locality. They had now come to the Government to ask if they could see their way to allow them to take up a block of land on the deferred payment system for that purpose. If land was not available within the Wellington Provincial District they would have no objection to taking up a block outside its boundaries. He thought the Government would recognise the great importance of the movement, which, he could assure them, was not for the purpose of speculation, all

those members with whom he was acquainted being most anxious to settle.

The Hon. Mr. Roeleston said Mr. Young, the secretary of the association, had been good enough to call upon him that morning, and to place in his hands a copy of the report which the committee had recently presented to the association, and from this he had gathered a good deal of their objects. They asked the Government to set aside not less than 30,000 acres of land, and were willing to enter into a contract to settle upon the block under the provisions of the Land Act. They further asked that the Government would deal liberally with them as to price and payment. Similar proposals had come before him and the Government from time to time in various forms, and from different parts of the country. There seemed to be a good deal of confusion as to the terms employed regarding the settlement of land, and especially between those of deferred payment and special settlement, nor was the difference which existed between different parts of the colony, and the proposals made, sufficiently appreciated. In the present instance, he thought they were laboring under some misapprehension as to how the Government would be permitted by the Land Act to deal with the subject, for there should be no necessity for informing them that the Government could only deal with such matters as provided by law, which,' as regarded land, was very stringent, and clearly defined. The rules provided for the full payment for all lands thatfwere sold, whether §the terms were deferred payments, cash, or under a contract for special settlement. There were no provisions for concessions. The clauses of the Act which referred to special settlement provided for the Government entering into a contract in such a manner as would involve the immediate outlay of a considerable amount of capital. Under these circumstances he could not see, by the papers in his hand, how they were in a position to enter into such a contract. The Government would have to insist on settlement upon the land in the shortest possible time, in justice to others, who would be debarred from occupying the land. This they were not in a position to do, as the Government would only deal with them as a corporate body, which had satisfied them of the possession of sufficient capital to fulfil its part of the contract. He was glad that he had the opportunity of discussing the question, as he had done in other parts of the colony. He could assure them that the Government would do their best to render the land open for settlement to the largest number of settlers. During their short term of office they had already opened 200,000 acres to deferred payment, and hoped to open a good deal more before long. He himself had only lately returned from making arrangements for opening the Moa Block. They would find considerable difficulty and a great deal of unavoidable expense in connection with the formation and management of a special settlement, all of which they could evade by taking up land as it suited them individually under the deferred payment system, in place of taking it up as they now desired, in one block of 30,000 acres. He might tell them that where land was taken up by an association, he did not think it would be advisable on the part of the Government to insist on occupation in every instance. They were of opinion that the land was for the people, and the more ,6f therSflad a share in it the better it would be foETthe colony. He would ask the deputation to consider what would be the result if the Government granted them a block of land upon specially favorable terms. There would probably be a rush from exery town and district in the colony to obtain a similar block on similar terms, and more than all the Crown lands in the colony would be required to satisfy the demand. Such a result would simply take the administration of lands out of .the hands of the Government, who would haye(nothing more to do with it. He felt sure tlj'ly; did not come to the Government to ask th'a't the people be placed on the land because they wanted money, as they must be well aware that the formation of any settlement, or the taking up of a small farm required considerable outlay before any profits could be expected. They had asked him to say whether he would indicate a block of land which the Government would be willing to make over to them. He thought it was for them to indicate what would suit their wishes. The Government could not make settlers of/them and take the responsibility if they weife dissatisfied after having been on the land, for some time. He had a list of lands before him which were about to be thrown open for settlement, but would have to remind them that there were many people who had been living near many of the blocks, and who had for years been saving money in the hope of securing some of the land. The Government could not overlook the claims of thdse people. In this Provincial District the lacld at present open for selection consisted of several blocks, and if any of the members of th/3 association felt inclined to take up sections the' Government would deal with them as liberally as the regulations permitted. None the blocks were large enough, however, to meet the demand which had been made by the association. There were 10,000 acres in the Upper Htitt district whieh were surveyed into sections of 100 to 300 acres, and which they could have if they came backed with funds. (Mr. Orr : That block would not suit.) In the Wairarapa there were two blocks of 31,000 and 33,000 acres, and to these were to be added the Kairanga block near Palmerston North, containing 7uoo acres, surveyed into sections varying from 60 to 100 acres, and another block of similar size higher up in the Manawatu District. It was also said that there would be a large quantity of available land along the West Coast railway line. A supplement recently published with the New Zealand Times gave a fair idea of its nature. There were a number of blocks in Auckland and at Poverty Bay, where others were likely tn be acquired for settlement at an early date. ■Returning to the subject, he had to confess tohat he did not see his way to complying with tfoe request to set aside 30,000 acres for them,

nor did he think the association was in a position to enter into a contract. They might make good use of the hints he had given them, and put themselves in a position to avail themselves of the land laws as they stood. The stipulation was clear that lands should not be dealt with below their proper price, and with the view of getting the earliest reasonable return. Mr. Hutchison said he supposed they were

to understand that the Government did not

intend to make any recommendation to the association as to land they could take up, and that in fact they did not intend to recognise it.

Mr. ROLLESTON replied that he did not say that. If the association came at a future time and asked for a block of land, proving that they were a corporate body and possessed of the necessary capital, their application would be fully considered. But the Government would have to take every precaution, as it would not be to the interests of the country to have a large block of land taken up for the purpose of speculation in place of settlement. Major Atkinson said the Government were obliged to hedge round such sale 3 with most careful conditions. The special settlement clauses were only intended to introduce foreign capital. The Government were willing to throw land open to deferred payment, but they had to be careful to guard public interests and avoid all speculation under them. Regarding the price charged, it was calculated that fully a third was returned to the settlers in payment for works, and in various other ways. The' Government always had to consider, first of all, what was best for the country as a whole.

Mr. Okr pointed out that the deferred payment clauses did not meet their views, because they wished to settle in some place where they could all be together. Mr. Rolleston said he could quite understand that such might be their desire ; but looking at the land that was available he could not see that there was sufficient in any one block that could be set aside for them. Settlements of that descriptio n when formed in the Colony were not always very successful. They had an instance in the Jackson's Bay Settlement, which was a lamentable failure. He would again remiud them that such a settlement would not be a relief to a great many of them, but that they would require money.

Mr. Levin thought the association was prepared to find the money. If they got good property they would probably be content with less than the 30,000 acres mentioned. If they went away now they would go away knowing no more than when they came. They should get the fullest information regarding land they might obtain. If the Government would indicate any block of laud they would be enabled to send delegates to examine it and bring up a report. They were not speculators, but a number of people who were anxious to settle, and had gone together to consider the best means to that end.

Mr. Okr said a number of them had already paid up 10 per cent, of the amouut their share of the land was likely to cost.

Mr. Bolleston knew nothing of this, but only that they were not a corporate body, and that unless they were such they could not be dealt with. Pegarding what he had said about people near some of the blocks being anxious to secure land he hoped he bad not been misunderstood. On the Otumakapua block for iustance a number of men were engaged in road making, and many of them saving money for the purpose of taking up some of the land. It would be hard on them if they were to be set aside, and told that they could not get any of the land. The association had an equal right certainly, but that only made it clear that the claims of these men must not be overlooked. He should certainly advise them to avail themselves of the deferred payment system.

Mr. Hutchison said the members wanted to be together, but could not ensure that by following the advise of the Hon. the Minister for Lands. If the Government would only say " There is a block of land you might have," they could go and see whether it would suit them.

Major Atkinson replied that the Crown Lands office was always open, and all information could be obtained there. They might there get what information they required, and then examine the block. He could hardly see that they were such a lot of friends that they should want to exclude everybody else.

Mr. Hutchison again urged that the Government could have no difficulty in pointing out a block.

Mr. Rolleston said the proposal must come from the association under the conditions he had already mentioned, otherwise they could not deal with them. The Government could not go so far as to indicate what land should be taken up.

Mr. Levin said they understood that they were advised either to take up land under the deferred payment system or place themselves in a position to deal as applicants for special settlements.

Mr. Rolleston said that was their position. They would have to be subject to the same stringency as other applicants, for, as already jjointed out, the clauses referring to such cases were only meant to attract foreign capital. Even in the case of Mr. Vesey Stewart, about 3000 acres of the pick of the block had been reserved for special settlement. After some conversation of no import, the deputation thanked the Government and withdrew.