The Politician.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 285, 14 July 1877, Page 18

The Politician.

MR. STAFFORD AT TIMARU.

(BY SPECIAL WIRE TO N.Z. TIMES OFFICE.)

aB (from our own correspondent.) Timaru, Wednesday.

The Hon. E. W. Stafford, M.H.R. for Timaru, addressed his constituents iu the Mechanics' Institute, Tiaaara, to-night. The commencement of the proceedings was half-past seven o'clock, and by that hour a large number of persons had assembled in the Mechanics' Institute. Amongst the audience were Mr. Rolleston, M.H.R. for Avon, Mr. Shrimski, M.H.R. for Waitaki, and Mr. Wakefield, M.H.R. for Geraldine. The chair was occupied by his Worship the Mayor, who introduced Mr. Stafford in a brief speech. Mr. Stafford was loudly cheered on rising to address the meeting. He said : —Your Worship and gentlemen,—l have very great pleasure indeed in again meeting you. I have always had that feeling when I met my constituents in Timaru, as indeed ought naturally to follow from the fact of my having been so remarkably well treated by the people here. No member has been so well treated as I have been from the first time I had any political connection with the people of Timaru. From the first time you asked me unsolicited to become your representative there has not been one single cause of difference of any sort. So far as I am aware of, it has always been a matter of pleasure to me to come down here and learn what your wants are. I may say also that it is a very great pleasure on the present occasion to come amongst you, because I have observed that that progress which has been so mai'ked between every occasion of my visiting you before is more observable than it has ever been before. During the past twelve months both the town and the district have made really wonderful progress, a progress that is obvious to the most cursory observer, and that alone pointed out the fact that, as the representative of a progressive district, I ought to, and you ought to as well, feel proud that you are members of a community which has largely taken advantage of the good things of the earth. Before I refer to matters of colonial and general interest, you will naturally expect me to refer to a subject of very great local interest to you all : that is, the celebrated Timaru breakwater. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) When I last had the pleasure of addressing you I told you that I did not anticipate that the necessary legislative action for that work would be obtained without considerable opposition. I was quite aware of the jealousy and opposition entertained outside of Timaru and the immediate district ; but I was not altogether prepared for the fact that even within the district there was an amount of opposition which, although not spoken of, yet was said to influence very largely the members of both branches of the Legislature in opposition to the scheme. That opposition did then and does now exist, and there is no use concealing that fact. It is just as well as a matter of business that you should know that ; and not only is there outside opposition, arising partly from ignorance and partly from a sceptical doubt as to the feasibility of the scheme, but partly perhaps from feelings of jealousy ; but there is also, as I have said, within the district itself an amount of dormant opposition which makes its influence felt, although it is not very openly expressed. In addition to that, last year the Bill which was considered necessary to promote the work was rather specially placed. It was not, as it might have been in ordinary sessions, one of two or three Bills of the same character, which would then necessarily be treated on their merits; but unfortunately, as I think, there was a rush of Harbor Bills, amounting in all to I think nineteen, and the aggregate demands of those Bills were very formidable when they came to be totalled up together. Speaking in round numbers, when these Bills were first presented to the Legislature, there was a demand for between £BOO,OOO and £900,000 of money, and from 400,000 to 500,000 acres as endowments in land. The fact was that the Legislature not unnaturally got more or less alarmed at the formidableness of the aggregate demand, more especially the members of the Legislative Council. They said, " If we are going to have all this absorbed for harbors we shall have nothing left for anything else;" and, therefore, I think there is no doubt that the question of the Harbor Act was very largely prejudiced from the fact that so many Bills of an analogous character were submitted at the same time. Now, as lam referring to that, I am very happy to see a gentleman opposite who gave very considerable assistance in getting the Bill passed as far as the money endowment was concerned. I mean Mr. Rolleston. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I am aware that there is a feeling entertained that Mr. Rolleston has been opposed to this scheme from the first. I am not prepared to say what his real opinions on the practicability or impracticability of the works are. He has never told them to me, but I will say this, that whatever his opinions may have been, he gave the very greatest assistance in reserving £IOO,OOO for the furtherance of the object, and if he entertained opinions opposed to the work he deserved all the greater credit for having taken a course of action which certainly tended to further that work. It is quite true that the Provincial Council in two sessions had appropriated this money, but if Mr. Rolleston had not included the amount in the estimate of requirements between the 30th of June and 31st of December last, it would have been much more difficult to have got the Government to assent to that money being set apart

for the purpose. (Hear, hear.) I approached the Government on the subject before the session commenced, but got no conclusive answer, except that it would be taken into favorable consideration. I have been long enough in the Government of the colony to know what "favorable consideration" means, and do not therefore attach very much importance to a communication of that nature. It was very little better than saying that they could not accede to the scheme. When I went to the Government after the session began, they met me at once by saying that the matter would be largely facilitated if Mr. Rolleston included that sum amongst the other requirements during the six months which would accrue between the 30th of June and the 31st December last. That was done. And to another gentleman, also, you are considerably indebted. I refer to the Hon. Mr. Hall. That gentleman had charge of the Bill in the Legislative Council, and no person took more trouble than Mr. Hall did, both in or aat of the Council, to get the Bill passed in the shape you desired it. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) After the first vote which threw out the landed endowment, Mr. Hall used his influence to get members to reconsider the question, and to give their support to the Bill ; in fact he did all he possibly could towards getting the endowment clauses passed. Since I have been here, I have become aware of certain resolutions which were arrived at by a public meeting held here on Monday last, and I have today had the pleasure of receiving a deputation appointed by that meeting to see me on the subject of modifications in the Bill. It strikes me there is no rational objections to these modifications which the Legislature can take. They refer to the constitution of the governing body. No doubt there is a great difficulty in securing the constant attendance of Chairmen of Road Boards living at a distance, to take part in the matter. At the same time, if you will allow me to make a suggestion, I should say that I think it would be unwise of the people of Timaru and the surrounding neighborhood, if they turned their backs absolutely on the people living in the country. (Hear, hear.) These people can do », great deal to retard the work, if they are incited to it ; and they can do a great deal to promote it, if you show a desire to work harmoniously and cordially with them. (Hear, hear, with cheers.) I am glad to see that in the proposed modifications you are to have the Chairmen of the Geraldine and Waimate County Councils placed on the Board so as to keep up the link of interest between the people of the town and those residing in the country districts. Objection had also been taken to the twenty-eighth section of the Act, which requires that no work shall be commenced until it is submitted to a commission appointed by the Governor. It is quite true that hitherto the clause has not been any obstruction, because you have not yet asked the Governor to appoint a commission to consider any work, and therefore you do not kuow what the result would be if such a request were made. Still that is an objectionable clause, which is not to be found, I believe, in any of the other Harbor Board Acts. That clause was put in with the hope of the certainty of securing the support of two members of the Legislative Council, who said they would not vote for the Act if the clause were not put in the Bill. They distinctly told me that without that clause they would not vote for the Bill ; therefore I thought it better to have the clause inserted in order to secure that £106,000 as a certain nest egg, even if in after years it was found necessary to have the clause struck out. I hope you will consider the discretion I exercised on that occasion was not misplaced. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I think there will be no objection to repealing the clause, if you leave certain power which, I think, the Governor and the Government have a right to ask where so large an amount of money is at stake, and where large endowments are required for the prosecution of the work. I do not know that there is anything more I should say specially on this subject. I think you will not question for a moment that all my energies and any little influence I possess will be exercised to give effect to your wishes in this matter. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I have, as you are aware, always declined to express au engineering opinion on the question. It is not for me to do so; but when I find a very eminent engineer proposing a plan which has not yet received a criticism from any person competent to give an opinion upon it, I am prepared to say that plan deserves a fair trial, and am quite aware that amongst the Public Works officers there is a difference of opinion, but I do not recognise that they are competent persons to criticise any proposals of Sir John Coote. Prominently amongst those who express difference of opinion is one whose own works are not beyond criticism at all. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He has shown no competency as a marine engineer, and as for a land engineer he has failed to show that ca>e which is necessary to ensure that the public money is not wastefully expended. Until he is beyond criticism in his own department, I think it would be as well for him not to attempt to criticise so eminent an engineer as Sir John Coote. I do not know, gentlemen, that an account of the action of the past session would be very interesting to you. So far as I can see, the probabilities of next session will be far more in accordance with the predisposition of the colonists. I will say this, however, that having been for more than twenty-five years connected with political matters in Aew Zealand, I never recollect a more dreary or profitless session than the last. One section of the members of the House made a protracted fight. I do not say one word about the action these gentlemen thought fit to take if they thought they were right. It was perfectly open to them to take the opportunity of expressing their opinion ; but, gentlemen, they as well as the other members of the House must have arrived at a foregone conclusion as to the course of the debate, but yet, with what Shakspere calls " a damnable iteration," they kept on ; and th.p

effect was to drive members out of the House and to protract to a wearying extent a most profitless debate. The result of this was that there was a great accumulation of work thrown on to the end of the session, and the discussions of most important questions such as education were driven off entirely. In referring to the acticn taken by a i>ortion of the members of the House, I may say that this does not apply to all of them, because a number of those who at first associated themselves with the party I have spoken of, declined to take further part in a factious opposition, and a great waste of time; therefore the waste of time was clue to a very small knot of members. As regards next session, I do not think that this waste of time will be repeated. There has been a very large defection from the party in the shape of those members, who, as I have already said, disapproved of the very great waste of time in profitless discussion. The subject of separation will, I suppose, come up for discussion this year. It will, I think, be productive of profitless discussion, because so far as I can see, I think the result arrived at will be similar to that of last year, namely, there will be au overwhelming vote against it. One subject to which I will just now refer is the semi-political system which has been introduced under the'name of the county system. I think it is a pity that the counties in Canterbury have not given the system a fair trial. The ratepayers were ready to do their part in the matter of the election of working members, and I think, as I have said, that it was a great pity that the counties have here not to a large extent (T think only one county has accepted the Act entirely) given the system a fair trial. (Cheers.) But while this is the case, it is also very peculiar to remark that the suggestions for amendment in the Counties Act proceeded not from those who have had experience of the Act, but from those who kuew nothing about its practical effect. Certain resolutions which had been cut and dried were passed, but it was done with closed doors, and in private, the reporters being excluded. We are not told whether the resolutions were passed unanimously. My idea is, so far as the Act is concerned, that the permissive clause should be eliminated from any amended Act. I know some people say that Road Boards are sufficient to carry on the work of the colony ; but be this as it may, I hold that if the county system is to be made of any value, it should be placed in the power of the people of the whole of the colony to say whether they will have it or not. Some parts of New Zealand, it may be remembered, have not the road board system at all in force. I may say that it is necessary to have something to act between the Government and the people, hence, where there is no such body as the road board, the people require something. In the neighboring province of Otago, for instance, there is a large area of country in which road boards have never existed; thus there is a necessity for some provision for the local government, and I think, therefore, the county system will supply the want. There _ is one work, however, which should be committed to the general Legislature, and upon this I hold strong opinions. That is the provision throughout the colony from one end to the other of the means of speedy and safe locomotion. (Cheers.) This is a point which I have always in my place in the Assembly advocated. I have not succeeded yet in obtaining it, but I hope to do so yet. Gentlemen, it is desirable as a matter of policy as well as from a financial point of view. I will put it to you this way: in a very short time we shall have our railway system opened up in this island from the Bluff, and for twenty, miles to the nortth of Christchurch. In the North Island railways have also been constructed in various parts; but, gentlemen, there are parts of the colony, not only on the West Coast of the Middle and North Islands and other portions, where railways have not been nor are likely to be constructed. They have not been included in this scheme, nor are they likely for years to receive the benefit of railways ; but, gentlemen, the peoxale residing in these localities have to contribute towards the cost of construction and maintenance of railways which are of no use to them. It would, I contend, be eminently unfair to them that some provision should not be made by which improved locomotion could be secured to these people. If, gentlemen, Ave are to have a united people, which I look forward to as being one of the greatest objects we should have in view, we should not have so much disparity in this matter as now existing ; that is, we should not have existing in one part of the colony far greater advantages in the matter of locomotion than in others without making an attempt so far as possible to equalise them. (Cheers.) Therefore, as a matter of equity as well as policy, I say that the General Government should take up the construction of arterial lines of communication in those districts which have no railways. By this means you secure a uniformity of action, and more than that, you secure the work being done properly. If not, you will have one county objecting to do a work, such aa making a road through its boundaries, which is a necessity to open up an adjoining county, and give access to theseaboard. For instance, the. County of Wairarapa could not have done so, had it been necessary to have undertaken the work of cutting through the Rimutaka range to give access to the County of the Hutt. Therefore, what we all want to see is the Government undertaking to provide a system of locomotion from one end of the colony to the other. (Cheers.) Well, but it may be asked, and certainly will be asked, if the General Government and the General Legislature undertake the construction of the arterial roads and bridges, where are they to get the money to do it, because the consolidated fund is quite as heavily reduced as it well can be. Well then, gentlemen, I say we should throw in a large amount of the land fund into it, as I think the land fund is the proper source to bear a share of the burden. Indeed, I have always regarded it as a mistake that the land fund was not included in the Public Works and

Immigration policy so as to have strengthened the scheme. And here let me refer to another matter, which acts very prejudicially towards us here. If the land fund had been included m the scheme as bearing a portion of the burden of the works to be constructed under it, we should have been in a far better position in the labor market. As it is now, when comparisons are made as for financial arguments, they are very frequently between the revenue of New Zealand and other colonies, and we appear to more disadvantage. This is the case because in the returns the land fund of New Zealand is not included, and thus, when the financiers at Home take our revenue returns, they only glance at the general totals. This results in a loss to us of nearly one-half of what it otherwise would be were the land revenue, as I contend it should be, included, for in Victoria and New South Wales the land fund goes to help the total. Hence when the comparison comes to be made, we are at a disadvantage as compared with those colonies. This is not reasonable, because we may have, as we probably shall, to go on the London market again to borrow money to cany out our works which we may find necessary in the future. I should therefore like to have the land revenue as well as the Consolidated or general revenue brought into one total. It is a matter on which I have always felt that a change was necessary, and what I have seen has confirmed the opinion I have always held. We have heard a great deal about the laud revenue, but really it is charged with so many burdens that it does not exist. I will tell you what are the proposals of the Goverment with regard to it ; and you will see at once that what I have stated is a fact. So late as the month of October, 1876, Major Atkinson made an estimate of the receipts from land revenue, in which he calculated them at £358,770 ; but shortly after this he proposed charges upon it to the amount of £416,483. Now where is your laud revenue after that ? (Cheers.) The real fact is, that the land revenue is being appropriated as fast as possible. Last year we had the charge of education put on it. It is true it was said that this was for six months only. Gentlemen, I don't for one moment, nor can you, that education can be supported as we should all like to see it—and as it must become, a national benefit—without the land revenue comes into it. I am in favor, as I told you last year, of throwing the charge of the maintenance of schools on the Consolidated Fund, and that the interest and sinking fund, and the cost of the erection and establishment of such other schools as might be found necessary, should also be paid out of the Consolidated itevenue. It is useless to think that we can only put certain charges on for a time. Every year we ahall find that we are called upon to provide for necessary wants. Departments must be kept up, and though I want to see economy practised wherever necessary, the natural increase of the country will entail upon us increased expenditure in this direction ; besides which the natural increase of children to whish elementary instructions will have to be given, at the cost of the State, also entails a large increased expenditure. Therefore I say it is useless to talk of putting education on the land revenue for six months. The wisest course would be, as I have already indicated, to place a certain amount of land revenue an one side, and deal with all the rest as Consolidated ReTenue. (Cheers.) This would be productive of good results, and would, I feel sure, be the cause of making us more national in our feelings. A fictitious land fund has been created —an absolute sham that cannot stand for an instant alone without support in the shape of 1 reasury bills. Did anyone ever hear of such a system of finance as this ? They say that out of the land revenue certain charges will come, but in four-fifths of New Zealand there is no land revenue ; therefore they are going to create a land revenue by the issue of Treasury bills, which is supposed to be a temporary advance to the Consolidated Revenue of the State. Here they are called Treasury bills, or Exchequer bills, as they are called in England, a supply given in anticipation of revenue coming in from Customs, &c. ; but here, by means of the issue of Treasury bills, a fictitious land revenue is created, which I said before, is all a perfect sham. I am quite aware that the present Colonial Treasurer (Major Atkinson) admitted as fully as anyone could do that it was not a sound system of finance, and expressed a hope that it would only be required for the six mouths expiring last June. I don't know what his views now are on the subject. I have had no communication with him, or any member of the Government, on the question of finance, and have seen nothing but the published accounts ; and these are accounts that only a very few experts can understand. The system of advancements recovered and transfers so complicated the accounts that in one instance the V n7?T™ ™ tbe colon ? was made to appear £14,000 000 in one year. The accounts are ! so complicated that I do not profess to understand exactly how the finances are. At the same time, I am not disposed to take the same gloomy view as has been taken by the Lyttdton Times. I think it will be found that the small balance which the year commenced with, andthe saving which hasbeen made on the votes of the Legislature, do about make up for the deficiency on the estimate of receipts. There may be a few thousand short, but practically I Son o V oa v - V f y , far shorfc of the £200,000 or £220,000 winch the Lyttclton Times assumed to be the likely amount of deficiency a week or two ago. Now last session a series of resolutions in the direction which I indicate, referring to the land revenue, were put upon the Supplementary Order Paper by Mr. Wakefield I have brought these resolutions with me today; they created more or less interest at the time, and I may say I gave very great consideration to the subject, and that with the principle of those resolutions I cordially agree. The principle was that the net land revenue, after providing for the cost of surveys and land department (which are essentially a first charge upon it) should be divided

irnto portions. One of which should go in aid of the ordinary revenue for providing for the ordinary department of Government; for the interest and sinking fund on all loans, whether colonial or provincial (provincial loans are already charged on the land revenue); for primary education, and other executive services, such as gaols, police, asylums, maintenance of all railways constructed, and for arterial roads and bridges, and for subsidies to road boards and municipalities in the proportion of pound for pound. And that the other moiety should be devoted to local roads and bridges, hospitals, charitable institutions and penitentiaries, not being public gaols. I could not convince myself that such a plau would ever financially work. The proportion which ought to be given for purely local works only was too large, and it would not have left anything. The Consolidated Revenue would not have had anything to meet all the charges thrown upon it, therefore I could not see my way to supporting the proposal. The principle was acceptable to me. The same principle being observed, it is a question of proportion. As to the proportion to be paid into the Consolidated account, in my opinion, if the various localities got from 20 to 25 per cent., they would be infinitely better off than they are under the present hand to mouth system, by which they do not know what they will get after the money is voted by the Assembly. The question is not without its complications. I don't know any question of great importance in New Zealand that is not a very complicated one. We have grown up-under different systems with dif- ■ ferent sympathies, and supposed different interests, and whenever we try to act as one body we are met by vested interests and complications of different courses of administration and legislation. And this land question has prominently one line in the path, and that is the disparity of price at which the land has been disposed of in the various parts of the colony. I will take the case of Auckland and Canterbury, because they may be looked upon as exponents of the highest and lowest price systems. One, under the system of free selection, has always maintained a high price for its land; it began with £3 an acre when the Canterbury {settlement was first started ; and since the Constitution Act was brought into force, with the exception of a short interval when S ; r George Grey authorised land to be sold at 10s. an acre, which was immediately taken advantage of by two large capitalists, Canterbury has maintained the unvarying price of £2 per acre. It is difficult to say what Auckland has done with its land ; it has given it away. It has sold it at every sort of price in scrip, and for 4s. and ss. an acre. (Laughter.) It is difficult to know what it has done in different cases up to 31st December, 1875. A return was made out showing the amount of acres disposed of in every province of the colony, and the amount of cash which has been received in return for those acres ; and this is how it is worked out at Auckland. The land disposed of from the foundation of the colony to the 31st Oct., 1875, was 2,128,225 acres in Canterbury the amount of land disposed of from the sth July, 1850, only because before that time it was sold in England by the Canterbury Association at £3 an acre, to the 31st December, 1875, was 2,014,606 acres ; that is very nearly the same amount of acreage, rather less on the part of Canterbury by about 114,000 acres. Well, Canterbury,' exclusive of what it had received for the land sold in England at £3 per acre, received £3,128,126 in cash, which was devoted to public works mainly. There may perhaps have been a few appropriations which did not go directly to public works. Auckland only received for a larger amount of acreage £312,28S (loudlaughter), and yet Auckland says m the boldest way we are going to make clucks and drakes of our land, and you who have husbanded your land, are to give us our share of the revenue. That is not parity of position, and until that is removed and a more common mode of disposal of laud established, no satisfactory settlement of the question can be arrived at. Ido not mean to say by that that there is to be only one system of selling land, because we must all recognise that a system which may suit one part of the colony may not be adapted to another part of it. In country densely wooded, mountainous, and full of deep ravines, the same system would not apply as would to Canterbury where such facilities for agriculture are afforded. Here you have simply to put the .plough in and get a wheat crop within eight or ten months after commencing operations. Canterbury and Otago have acted prudently in the disposal of their lands, and I am bound to say that Wellington also has shown some prudence in this matter ever since Sir Wm. Eitzherbert, the Speaker of the House of Representatives became Superintendent of Wellington. That province has since acted prudently with regard to the disposal of its agricultural land, and some of it has been sold at £3, and even £5, an acre. But we must have some understanding as to the disposal of land in the future, and until that is done, we shall not have such as complete a system of finance as I should like to see in the colony. Therefore I declare that as a preliminary there must be some az-rangement between those lands which have been recklessly dealt with and those which have been prudently dealt with. Gentlemen, there is a subject that we all feel an iuterest in, to which I have adverted to at considerable extent ; the subject has also a local interest In respect to the mode of administering educational matters I may say I was very much disappointed, and expressed my disappointment in my place 111 the House last year. When an Education Board was constituted for Canterbury there was not a board appointed for the district south of Rangitata. (Hear, hear.) I have almost a positive assurance'from the Minister of Justice (who is exhausted with the preparation and charge of educational matters to be brought forward next session), that there will be a separate board for that district (Hear, and cheers). I don't know how those

boards are going to be constituted ; but I have every reason to think they will be elected boards, but I have no information on the matter of an official character. Then comes the question how are the schools to be maintained? After the question as to whether the Consolidated Fund, with all the charges, can maintain without assistance primary schools, comes the question of assistiug the Consolidated Fund, and making it larger. There, are people who say they would like to see school fees charged or taxation levied to maintain the schools. Now, with reference to fees, even if they are small fees, that would not be appreciably felt, they appear to me to have this disadvantage. There are many people who doubt occasionally whether they will send their children to school or not, especially when they arrive at that age when their work will tend to contribute towards the family resources. If a parent holds that doubt the sending of his children to school will have this effect, not only to deprive him of that child s services, but he will also have to put his hand in his pocket to pay the school fees. I his very often solves the doubt, and the child is kept from school for that reason. I object to the system of fees, as it tends, m many cases, to discourage children being sent to school. On the other hand, if you are taxed whether you send your children to school or not, you will naturally s * v ,,"° h > if I have to P a y I will send my children." I don't know what the Government will propose, still less do I know what the House will accept. The whole question is one that ought to, and I believe will, receive a great deal of discussion. I do not know any question which will come before the Legislature during the next session which ought to aud . no doubt will receive more careful and anxious consideration than that of education. In connection with this question of the higher schools aud colleges, and on this last point I desire to say a few words, I know there are many who say that the State should not go beyond elementary education, and they use the argument that it is supporting the rich to the exclusion of the poor. But, gentlemen, this censuring is entirely useless. The rich man will give his children education whether the Government provide the means or not. It is just the poor man who requires the State to educate his children in the shape of scholarships and higher schools. Gentlemen, I know instances within my own knowledge of sons of tenant farmers and even of lower positions in Scotland, who, through the system obtaining therein, have been enabled to take highest rank in educational matters, which they never would have been able to do under other circumstances. It has always seemed a standing reproach on so rich a country as England that she should have so neglected to contribute towards her system of education. With a revenue amounting to sixty millions, all that was contributed towards education was £600,000. Compare that with what was done in the colonies. While we find that in England the contributions to the cause of education are what I have stated, the colony of Victoria has alone contributed one-third of its revenue. I am glad to be able to say that the colonies early recognised their duty in this matter. The old provinces of Nelson, Canterbury, and Otao-o have shown from the first a feeling that it was a primary necessity that elementary education should be afforded to the youth growing up amongst us. I can only express a hope that this is the leaven which shall leaven the whole lump, and that all parts of the colony as a whole will act up to the example set to it by the portions I have referred to. As regards the_ question of hospitals and charitable aid, I desire to say a few words. I allude to it now because I think it is altogether owing to a mistake that the support of these institutions has been thrown on the municipalities. In the past it was entirely owing to the fact that the Counties Act in many parts has not been brought into force. It was never intended that it should be so. My idea is that districts should be grouped with special reference to their ready access to the towns in which hospitals exist, and that the cost of their maintenance should be found pro rata. Of course the greater proportion of cases would be likely to come in from the country districts owing to the greater probability of accident. But I think no fairer method could be adopted. (Cheers.) As we have now come to the full development of the Public Works and Immigration policy, and have arrived very nearly at the end of the works in connection with it, it seems to me a very proper time to review Av'hat has been done in connection with it. In the first place, I may say that from the outset I J gave a cautious support to the scheme,although, as will be seen from my speeches which appear in Hansard and elsewhere, I was an early opponent of it. Why I did this was from the fact that I did not approve of the mode in which the scheme was carried out. It was ill digested and crude in its application. Early in the year a scramble took place, the committee being invited by the Government to say what they wanted, and it was promised that effect Avould be given to their wants. But putting this on one side, some of the works were pushed on in a hurried manner, to the exclusion of other works which would have been far more to the interest of the colony had they been executed. This hurry and its effects are now just beginning to be seen, as the work then executed has had to be reconstructed in j many instances, aud in others large repairs have been found to be necessary. I say this and do so without fear of contradiction, that there is no country in the world at no time that I can think of which affords such facilities for railway works as that between Timaru and Christchurch. It consists, as you know of rolling prairies with shingle, which could be utilised for ballast close alongside ; and yet we find that repairs of some magnitude, and in some cases reconstruction, have been necessary. But it is not alone here. In the province of Marlborough they have a small railway of some twenty miles in length which has had to be reconstructed three times' It was one which, had those selecting it used

their eyes, would at once have been seen to be subject to floods. In days before a railway was thought of, I have seen a horse obliged to swim it. There are other instances that l could give you, but I will not detain you by quoting other circumstances. ±he scheme was hurriedly, and without any large, amount of forethought, brought into work. 1 his was the fault of the Legislature to a very large extent. My friend Mr. Tvollestoii and myself attempted with Q I 6 1" thS T tUIe ' bufc UnSUCGCBStuIIy. So far as I can gather, we have got a mileage of railways actually constructed, or in course of construction, of nearly 1000 miles, and this has cost us nearly seven millions, so that is about £/000 per mile. The original, calculation was from £3OOO to £3500 per mile. I admit that the original calculation has been altered by_ the increased price given for the land required for the railways, but this should have been known before hand. The fact is, that in many cases the lines were laid out, and the rails actually on the ground before the purchases were completed ; or, in many cases, before the negotiations as to prices, etc., had hardly begun. Of course the arbitrators acting on the increased value naturally accruing to land from the making of a railway in its proximity, had no other course but to give their award accordingly ; but I say that approaching it in this way, of course, the cost was very largely increased. I believe that in many localities at the time so keen was the dosre to have a railway, that the residents would have been willing to have given the land; and I think that yet they will do so, and that many branch lines will be made on these terms. The result of this has been that we have got only about half of the money's worth for our money. It is true that the colony has advanced some 25 years by the carrying out of these works, but we have certainly expended double as much money as we have received value for, and this is mainly owing to the reckless way in which the scheme was managed at first. The blame of this state of affairs cannoc be taken off the shoulders of the representatives of the country. They are primarily responsible for it, and when we talk about representative institutions we must not forget that, if they are in accord with the Anglo-Saxon character, they have their disadvantages when viewed financially. There is no doubt, however, about this, the people of New Zealand are the most estranged in the world. They seem not to care for the expenditure of money without much reflection as to the means of repayment. This does not only apply to our public matters, but goes with us to our homes. (Cheers.) With regard to immigration I may say that the number introduced up to date is 100,000. I am not in a position to state what the amount precisely is. I know that a million was asked and voted for it' and I think it is probable we shall find that this has been exceeded somewhat. I may say that I have always been dissatisfied with the future of legislation for settling the people on the land. I said this in 1870, but now we are worse off than we were because our land is gone in the parts where the settlement of the people on the land would be of infinite benefit to the colony as a whole They could have been settled on the lines of arterial works, where capital and labor could have been interchanged. Had this been done the system would have worked infinitely better, and the results would have been far greater. The Premier, I am glad to see, has announced the intention of the Government to take means to settle the people on the land, but he has given no iiidicaZ £ e 1 ? ode which he Proposes shall be adopted to secure this. It is now late to do this, as I think it should have been done before. Had this been so we should have reaped the benefit of it before our land was all gone, and before the millions had all been expended. However, I am glad to hear that something is to be done in the matter There is one subject which is of great importance to people. I allude to the railway tariff which has recently been introduced on this subject. I have received a telegram from the Hon Minister for Public Works, addressed to the Hon. John Hall, which I will read you It is as follows:—"I hear that you address your constituents at Timaru. As it is likely that some questions will be asked upon the railway tariff." Mr. Stafford: It shows how conscience pricks itself occasionally. (Laughter.) Evidently the Minister for Public Works had afeelinffof conscience that it would be alluded to (Hear hear.) "I send you telegram addressed to' Hall, which you can make any use you like of it.'; Mr. Stafford : I made this use of it, namely, to send it to you. " I have requested Mr. Lawson to rd V e the Agricultural and Pastoral Association any information re railway tariff you may require, and which he may be able readily to give Will you remember that on the Christchurch and Lyttelton section the new tariff will produce twelve thousand a year less than under the old tariff, and that all railway borne produce and imports pass over that piece of line and get ad vantage of the uniform rate. The new tariff is a general reduction on late Otago rates, and is about the same as the rates heretofore charged in the North Island." It compares favorably with Victorian rates. The classification of o-oods was arranged by the Railway Commission, and will require modification, as experience shows necessity. Thenewrate for stock trucks is I see objected to, and I find the old Canterbury rate is very low, viz., for one flour truck twenty miles 10s.; thirty miles, 13s. 4d. ; forty miles, 16s. Bd.; and fifty miles, £l. The new tariff rate, for one floor of " sheep" trucks is twenty miles, 12s. 6d.; thirty miles, 17s •V °^ y^mi l e ?' £1 2s - 6d - 5 and fifty s '.f\ 7s. 6d. The new tariff rate for high-sided goods trucks used for stock is—twenty miles, 16s. Sd.; thirty miles, £1 5s • forty miles, 325. 6d. ; fifty miles, 40s In' tend to alter the tariff for high-sided' goods trucks to the rate for one floor of "sheep" trucks as above quoted. The carrying capacity of one floor of sheep trucks is the same as that

of the high-sided waggons, viz., 30 long-wools or 50 merinos. The following alterations have ! been determined on, viz., class " E, brram, if less than two tons, then as per class "D •" Coal, if in bags less than two tons,' then, as per class D rate. I shall be glad to receive the views of the society after inquiring.-J. D. Osmond, Wellington. Mr. Stafford." I shall give the telegram to the reporters, and you will all see it. (Hear, hear.) Well, gentlemen, I don t know that I need say anything more. You see the Goverment are aware they have made a mistake, at all events in some items in the tariff, and have become sensible that they made a mistake, and admit they are prepared to make modifications. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I don t know that there is any subject to speak about, beyond those I have already referred to except the question of Separation. As to that question, I have only to tell you—certainly not for the first time—that I am an absolute and determined opponent of Separation, and especially on the basis proposed last year _ 1 should rather see the separation of certain poitions of this colony, than such a proposal as was made last year carried out. I should absolutely prefer to see certain portions of this island made into separate colonies. Looking at it financially, and that is a point we cannot afford not to look at it from, the proposal made last year could never be accepted by the people of this island. No provision was made for subsidising the ocean mail-boats or for the cable which keeps us in communication with Europe and the rest of the world, nor for any of those services necessary for both islands; and if either party failed to pay what was required of it the greatest disaster would ensue upon the other part of the colony Whenasked upon what basis the proposed division was calculated, Mr. Reader Wood stated frankly that it was on the basis that all well can pay, and will pay. Well, gentlemen, we are not going blindly into such a trap as that. If there was a separation of the two Islands on such a basis as that proposed last year, all the aspirations of my political life would be destroyed. I believe we are becoming much wider minded and much more open to the sympathies and interest of others outside the narrow street we ourselves dwell in. I believe that the whole tendency of the age is that of people putting shoulder to shoulder, instead of separating themselves into little bickering sects. Odd Fellowship, Good Templarism, and the like are but a recognition of the tendency of the age, that it is the duty of man to co-operate with his brother man, and so make one common family for the common good of all; therefore upon every ground of expediency, sentiment, sympathy, interest, and finance, 1 shall be found to be a determined and consistent opponent of Separation. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) I have no doubt that the question will be debated next session, and perhaps very factiously, but I trust the same conclusive result as last year will be arrived at. I believe this will be the case, not only next session, but in subsequent sessions whenever the question is revived. (Hear, hear). Gentlemen, I have now touched upon all the subjects of which I had made a note, but I shall be very happy to answer any questions upon subjects to which I have omitted to refer, or on which you may wish to have more full information. I thank you most cordially for the attention which you have given to me, and the large attendance which is here to-night. (Cheers.) I only ask you to believe in retiring that I feel that no one could be better treated by any body of men than I have been by the constituency of Timarn, and I shall, so far as I am able, give you in return my best energies for the advancement of your interests and for the public benefit. (Loud and continued cheers.) , , . , An Elector: I have received this document from the railway to-day. If the Minister for Public Works will tell me what it means 1 shall be obliged to him. ~.■'.,. * Mr. Stafford ? I am not the Minister for Public Works ; but so far as I can see it seems to me a receipt for fish. (Laughter.) Mr. Archer said that he had very great pleasure in moving a cordial vote of thanks to Mr. Stafford for his able address, and he would also ask the meeting to endorse a vote of renewed confidence in him. (Loud cheers.) ' Mr. Hall would have very great pleasure in seconding the resolution. In reply to a question Mr. Stafford said that respecting the extension of the line from Opawa to the Ashley Downs, that was not in his district. It was in that of the member for Geraldine. He might say, however, that it was one of the points brought under his notice by the deputation which had waited upon him that day. At the same time, he told them frankly that he thought there would be but little chance of it being carried, as so many places would be applying for branch extensions. With regard to the Local Option Bill, this had exercised hismindmore than any other question which he had had to consider. It could not be denied that the habit of excessive drinking had, in all English-speaking communities, been the cause of much crime and disease • and the evil effects of it not only affected the individual, but also those dependent upon him. He did not believe that human nature would be content to exist without stimulants of some kind. In all nations, whether savage or civilised, the use of stimulants of the nerves or brain-power was common ; and he did not think that they would ever be enabled to get rid of their use altogether. He would, however, say this much, that the principle of the Local Option Bill was one which deserved a trial. (Cheers.) He had not made tip his mind to oppose it, and had very nearly made up his mind to support it. (Cheers.) He -had not seen Mr. Stout's Bill ; but he knew that Mr. Stout claimed for it that it was an improvement on the present law If a house was badly conducted it could be closed; but as he read Mr. Stout's own definition of his Bill, he took it that if it was decided that a house should receive a license it could not be closed for three years. In this the present law was

better than that proposed by Mr. Stout. There was one point in which it certainly was an advantage, and that was that it recognised the principle of representative constitutions having a voice instead of the licensing bench. He thought that this should be extended, so that adult women .should have a vote, because no one suffered more from the vice of intemperance than wives, mothers, and daughters. As regards the dealwith the lands in 1880, he certainly was opposed most strongly to the granting of small tracts to the mining community, lo do this would simply be to get people into these tracts to starve. This was a proposition which had been made from Waimate; but he was decidedly opposed to it. He was of opinion that they should deal liberally with this question ; but to carry out the principle he had referred to, would not in any way advance the interests of the colony. The Chairman inquired if any other person had any questions to ask. No further questions were asked, and the vote of thanks aud renewed confidence in Mr, Stafford was then put, and carried unanimously, amid loud cheers. Mr. Stafford : Gentlemen, you.have again placed me under a very great obligation to you, and have given me very great encouragement to go on and merit your confidence in the future. (Hear, and cheers.) The meeting terminated with a vote of thanks to the chairman.