Parliament.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, September 3. The Council met at two o’clock. MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE AND BAND PURCHASES. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES moved, that seeing that allegations have- been made, apparently on authority, that members of the Legislature, during the term of the present Parliament, have been or are interested in certain agreements or transactions with the Government involving payment of money, or the granting of present or prospective pecuniary advantage to such members, it is expedient to appoint a select committee to inquire into the circumstances, and, whether the provisions of the Disqualification Act have been infringed. The committee to consist of the Hon. the Speaker, the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the Hon. Major lticlnnond, C. 8., the Hon. Mr. Ackland, the Hon. Mr. G. 11. Johnson, the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, and the mover, with power to call for persons and papers, and to report in seven days. The motion was agreed to. GOLDFIELDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL (NO. 1). The Hon. Mr. BONAB moved the second reading of this Bill, and said the object of the measure was to provide a just and equitable law, regulating the use of streams on the goldfields. Some discussion took place, after which the second reading was carried on a division by a majority of five. OTAGO WASTE LANDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a second time, and At five o’clock the Council adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, September 3. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two. NOTICES OF MOTION. A number of notices of motion were given. PAPERS. Sir DONALD McLEAX laid on the table correspondence relative to the oyster fisheries at Stewart s Island, and other papers. WAIKATO LANDS. Sir GEORGE GREY moved, without notice, that a return lie laid on the table, showing what lands in Waikato have during the last two years been purchased by the Government from Europeans, such return to specify the area aud position of lauds, prices paid, and the names of persons from whom such lands were obtained. Sir DONALD McLEAX said there would be uo objection whatever. Sir GEORGE GREY said his object was afterwards to ascertain to what purpose these lands were to lie applied. QUEEN OF BEAUTY MINE. In answer to Mr. Sheehan, the Native Minister said the report of the officer appointed to inquire into the petition of the Queen of Beauty shareholders, presented to the House last session, had been received on the 20th of last month, and was now under consideration. DR. HECTOR. In answer to Mr. Sheehan, the Hou. Mr. Richardson stated that there would be no objection to lay on the table copies of all reports and correspondence in reference to the visit of Dr. Hector, during the recess, to various districts north of Auckland. SIR JULIUS VOGEL. Mr. STOUT asked the Government, —(1.) Under what authorty Sir Julius Vogel had entered into a contract with the New Zealand Shipping Company (Limited), for the conveyance of emigrants to New Zealand ! (2.) V hether such contract was made with the express sanction of the Cabinet? (3.) Whether the Government intended to ask this House to validate the contract so made ? The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that Sir Julius Vogel had entered into uo new contract for the conveyance of immigrants, but the Agent-General had negotiations almost completed at a nominally advanced rate. A PETITION. In reply to Mr. Swanson, Sir ]). McLEAN said the Government were prepared to give effect to the report of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of the petition of David Davids. BILLS INTRODUCED. The following Bills were introduced, read a first time, and the second readings made orders of the day for Wednesday :—A Bill to vest the Control of all Wharves and Quays in tlie Boroughs of Hokitika and Greymouth i:i the Councils of such Boroughs, aud Public Libraries Powers Bill. THE ABOLITION BILL. I lie first order of the day was then called ou. Adjourned debate on a resolution reported from a committee of the whole House (appropriation clauses of the Abolition of Provinces Bill). Mr. THOMPSON resumed the debate in a long speech opposed to the Bill. He contended that the £290,000 might as well be given to the provinces as to the provincial districts. He denied that the colony was not paynig interest out of loans; the issuing of Treasury bills pointed to that. He did nut believe the Government could make good their promises. If the deficiency on provincial railways was to be paid out of the local land fund, the Government would not be able to keep their promises in respect to paying these large sums out of the Consolidated Revenue. With regard to the expenditure, members were not able to control it—could only follow it and not direct it. Unproductive works were being carried out from borrowed money. He instanced the new Government buildings and the Museum. Last year a sum of £2900 had been voted for Parliamentary furniture, which he presumed to mean the fittings of that Chamber, and the tow er, or whatever it might be called, in which
the Speaker reposed. (Laughter.) He thought that could scarcely be considered reproductive. Passing ou to other matters, he said the number of civil servants should be decreased, and under that proposal it was evident to him that the number would be increased, which in itself was a step in the wrong direction. According to this year’s estimates, there were in all (and he thought some members would be astonished to learn it) 5256 civil servants of the General Government. Then, if the provinces were to be abolished, all provincial officers would become General Government servants, and with such a staff of officials, the Government might be said to be in a position to set at defiance any opposition. It would have been far more to the credit of the colony had they said abolition was necessary because of the necessities of the colony. Mr. McGLASHAN briefly combatted the arguments of the last speaker, who, ho said, when quoting figures, had quoted himself into a fog. He pointed out that many of the Colonial Government servants alluded to by the lion, gentleman, were members of the Armed Constabulary, up-country postoffice clerks, and others; and even so, the fact that they were down on the estimates was an evidence that they were necessary. He maintained that Provincial Councils did nothing but foster jealousies and heart burnings, and if for nothing but this, he would abolish them from the face of the earth. As to the great amount of (frdinances passed by the Provincial Council of Otago as alluded to by the honorable member for Port Chalmers, he contended that those Ordinances could lie passed equally as well by municipal councils. As to the Appropriation Ordinance of the Otago Provincial Council, £400,000 over the estimated revenue hail been voted, and that sum would not have appeared but for the log rolling propensities of the Council, in which they were aided and abetted by the Executive. He then referred to the Dog Ordinance. In referring to the land laws of the colony he pointed to a large book which he called a pocket volume of the land laws of the colony. If a man acquainted with the laws of one province entered another the land laws of that other province were entirely strange to him. Therefore he maintained that the land laws of tlie colony should be solidified and made more uniform. He referred to the speech of the member for Port Chalmers, and as to the resolution passed last session in the Otago Provincial Council with respect to abolition, and which had been quoted by the lion, member in his speech, he endeavored to show that the Council were not unanimous for delay, as had been stated by Mr. Macaudrew. Provincialism caused a wa-te of power in legislation; its abolition was desirable, and he should record his vote in favor of tlie Bill before the House. Mr. READER WOOD said the House was thin, and the debate had become somewhat wearisome. It was understood that the question of finance was to be considered, and he should address himself to that question, as it ■was one of great importance. But before doing so he referred to the criticism by Sir Donald McLean of Sir George Grey’s address, which he characterised as unjust, uncalled for, and far from being borne out by the actual circumstances of the case. He then referred to. the speech of Mr. Stafford, with regard to this being a supreme Legislature. The debate on the part of the Government and its supporters had taken a peculiar turn. They debated not on the Bill before the House, but upon an abstract proposition as to whether or not the provinces should be abolished. Abolition was not one of the main principles of the Bill. What the House should have addressed itself to was two questions ; one, localisation of land fund ; the other, an extreme centralising system of centralisation. The present Bill in no respect carried out the terms of the resolution carried out last session, namely, that provincialism should be substituted by a cheap and effective system of local self-government. As to the feeling of the country, he denied that it was in favor of this Bill. He would point to Auckland, and ask what it was that induced the people there to send petitions to the member for Auckland City West to oppose the Bill. They recognised that it interfered with tlie principle of local selfgovernment. The people of Auckland said they would not be governed from Wellington to have tlie revenue first taken there and then given hack or not, as it might please that central Legislature. Let them pass their Bill or not, Auckland would not have it. If they passed it, the consequence would be that at tlie next election Auckland’s members would be sent down to Wellington pledged to vote for separation. The present system of finance was oppressive to Auckland. The compact of 1856 was unjust to Auckland. It was manifestly unfair that Auckland, which had no land revenue in comparison with the South, should be compelled to pay so much from her Customs. Mr. Wbod then proceeded to propound a scheme by which Auckland, being separated, the Provincial Council of the colony of Auckland would have £IOO,OOO for public works. At this point, it being half-past five, Mr. Wood signified his intention of continuing his speech at half-past seven. At half-past seven, Mr. WOOD proceeded to remark that tlie Government had always acknowledged that Auckland was unduly pressed upon by the financial policy of tlie colony. In 1870 Mr. Vogel proposed that a sum should he borrowed to place Auckland in tlie possesion of a land fund, but it had not yet a land fund, and the prognostication of Mr. T. B. Gillies had been realised in that respect. He pointed out that the cause of this difference was that in the North Island the natives held possession of the principle portion of tlie land, and knowing the value of it, would not part with any but the worst. This year another attempt to give the province a land fund was to lie made* by handing over the confiscated lands, but he was surprised that the Government should hold forth the hope that a sum of £45,000 would be obtained as a land fund. Even if it was realised by sales of land, still the cost of surveys would
have to be deducted, so that nothing like £45,000 would he available as a laud fund. But he contended that sum would never be realised, and he would ask if, during tlie past lew years, the Colonial Government could make nothing out of the confiscated lands, how was it possible for them to get £45,000 per annum in future ? He then read a return showing that barely anything had been gained by the Government under its management of the confiscated lands, and asserted that the House was being hoodwinked by the Government. He tlieu approached the financial statement, and said there was not the slightest confidence could ever be placed in these financial statements which had been put before tlie House. Ho referred to the speech of Mr. Gillies in 1873, in which that gentleman reviewed the finances of the colony, aud which was worthy of notice now ; also to statements made in the Legislative Council by Mr. Sewell and Mr. Waterhouse, aud Dr. Pollen, the former of whom agreed with Mr. Gillies that tlie debt would be sixteen or seventeen millions before borrowing was done with ; whilst the latter, on the strength of Mr. Vogel’s statements, said no such debt would he incurred, but that the total indebtedness would be fourteen millions ; and when that amount had accrued there would bo 760 miles of railway open. What was the fact ? The indebtedness of the colony was now seventeen millions, and they had but 336 miles of railway. (Cheers.) If this was a specimen of financial statements, what was tlie use of them. With regard to the present statement, it had been impossible to understand it while it was being delivered ; and anyone who read it, except lie was an expert in the finances of the colony, could not make head or tail of it. First he would look at the loan account, and see what amount of money the colony had ; next, the revenue and expenditure of the colony ; next, the land revenue. In regard to the first of these heads, he said everything connected with the great public works scheme had gone. All had been either spent or was covered by liabilities except £661,000. Of that sum about £120,000 remained on account of land purchases, and could not be voted for anything else. Other sums applicable only for defence purposes, brought the sum down to somewhere about £400,000, and that was all the House had to go upon. Then knowing how much in excess of the estimates public works had already cost, lie would ask what sensible man would say the House ought to appropriate one shilling of that £400,000 ? Who knew whether the whole of that amount would not he absorbed before the works at present in hand were finished. Practically, all the money was gone, and certainly they could not go into the London money market to borrow again, for at least two years, and at the end of that time assuredly they would not lie able to go into a market to borrow. That was a plain and simple statement of the laud fund. Then for the revenue. The revenue did not swell the expenditure by a quarter of a million, and that quarter of a million was taken from the land fund. That was a pleasing process—robbing Peter to pay Paul. Paul might lie mightily pleased, but poor wretched Peter would view the matter in a different light. (A laugh.) Then for the land fund. The land fund of the whole colony as estimated by tlie various Provincial Governments, who should be able to form the most correct estimate, was £762,000 for the year. It was not proposed to bring the Abolition of Provinces Act into operation before the Ist November next, so that the appropriations by the General Government would only cover a period of eight months, therefore in making calculations it would be necessary to make deductions accordingly, which would reduce it to £151,516. This was to be disposed of in three ways. First, there was a charge for payment of interest and sinking fund, on loans and other items, amounting to £245,890; secondly, the cost of services aud general administration of the waste lands of tlie provinces, and other charges, £262,000 odd; thirdly, contributions to road boards, £33,000 odd, making in all a total of £558,401, to meet which there was a revenue of £451,516, showing a deficiency of £101,885. This would be reduced by tlie issue of Treasury bills to the amount of £58,700, to a net deficiency of £43,185 —-a deficiency never contemplated by the framers of tlie Bill, who apparently had always supposed there would be a residue. This residue was to have been divided into two parts—first, the construction of public works. These public works included railways, harbor works, &c., the cost of which was estimated at £1,600,000, to meet which there was absolutely not a shilling either from the land fund or the general revenue. (A laugh.) An hon. Member : Then where were the provinces to get the works from ! Mr. WOOD was not talking about tlie provinces now. (A laugh.) He was talking about the interests of the whole colony—(oh !) —but he would say this, that the provinces had entered into engagements for manv of these works, and if the colony took over the provinces it would have also to take over its liabilities and engagements, whereas it had not money to meet those engagements with. The colony was in a state of bankruptcy. (Opposition cheers, and laughter from Ministerialists.) He averred deliberately—and was prepared to prove it before any committee the Government might appoint —that the colony had entered into engagements which it could not meet. He had endeavored for a long time past to find out the Government side of the question, and although in some respects he had been supplied with what lie asked for, here were many things he did not want. Ho did not expect to see as a return of revenue from land, such items as goldfields duty or railway receipts ; yet, this was what lie had been furnished with. However, he wished to make some few remarks on it. The Provincial Government of Canterbury estimated its revenue for the year at —from sales of land, £120,000 ; pastoral leases, £44,000 ; total, £164,000. What did the Colonial Treasurer estimate the land fund of the same pro-
vince for eight months at ?—£461,758. (Loud laughter from the Government.) Well, he read the words of the return, which were very plain. In Otago, the Provincial Government estimated the land revenue for the whole year at £230,000 ; the Colonial Treasurer for eight months estimated it at £271,821 ! It was impossible to find words which one could use in the House to characterise estimates like this. (Ministerialists: Hear, hear.) Yet it was upon such estimates as those the House was asked to vote millions or hundreds of thousands of pounds for public works—(Ministerialists : Hear, hear)—it was upon these estimates that the Government was going to bring in a Bill to establish road boards. For the year the land revenue of Otago was £232,000. The expenditure was—interest on provincial debt, £94,000 ; the same ou railways, £5462 ; expenditure as per estimates, including grants to education boards, £148,896 ; contribution to road boards, £IO,OOO ; giving a total, £257,000 odd. lo meet this there was only ;i revenue of £232,000. In Canterbury there was a revenue of £164,000, and an estimated expenditure of £l/3,000 ; so that there was another deficit there, giving for the two provinces a deficiency between £20,000 and £30,000. He might go further, and show the House similar discrepancies in other places, if he were not afraid of troubling the House too much. (No ! no !) Now, as to the question of ordinary finances. He was aware that there was a strong disposition on tlie part of members of the House to object to other members eferring to the finances of their own districts, but he thought the objection unfounded, and for this reason : that many members might be able to give information with regard to the finances of their own particular districts, which would prove valuable to the House when considering the finances of the colony. Now, he was going to refer to the subject of Auckland finances, although perhaps he should not have done so had he not been attacked in a most unwarrantable manner on what he had said when addressing the House on tlie second reading of the Abolition Bill. He had then had occasion to enter into a defence of Auckland against the charges which had been brought against it of being scandalous. He had not attacked anybody himself, but had merely stated that the province owed no one anything, and that it had a balance at the bank. That had been taken up by the hon. member for Franklin, who, of course, with that candor and nice regard for facts that characterised all the followers of the Government had misquoted his words, saying, The hon. member for Parnell has told the House that Auckland has plenty of money.” He never liked to disturb hon. members when speaking, but had felt bound to get up aud remark, “ I did not say we had plenty of money ; but I said ‘ we have a balance,’ and added ‘ of £3000.’ ” The hon. member had not made any further comments on what he (Mr. Wood) had said, but remarked he would turn him over to the tender mercies of that great lion—the Colonial Treasurer. (A laugh.) When the Colonial Treasurer began to speak, lie (Mr. Wood) was mangled accordingly, and told that the £3OOO balance had been brought about by a gift from the General Government of £6OOO ; in fact, an instance of their eleemosynary charity. The fact was, this £6OOO was tlie just right of tlie province, for by an agreement entered into by tlie late Superintendent, it was agreed that a sum of £4OOO advanced to the province of Auckland as soon as the Appropriation Act was passed, and the £6OOO should be paid three months afterwards, and a similar sum at a subsequent period. That agreement was ratified and affirmed by this House, aud the Provincial Government of Auckland had as much right to that £6OOO as any province had to is capitation allowance. Yet they were told it was given to them. So long as the late Superintendent (Mr. Williamson) was alive, the money was paid ; but the moment the present Superintendent came into office, not another penny could be got. When they applied for the money all sorts of excuses were manufactured, and they were politely told for one tiling that there were not five quarters in the year. However, they got the £6OOO five weeks after it was due, and then it was said it was given to them. The Hon. Major ATKINSON : Hear, hear ! Mr. WOOD, sarcastically: “Hear, hear,” is it ? The Hon. Major ATKINSON : Hear, hear. Mr. WOOD : It is “hear, hear.” This was the lie that was fixed upon him by the hon. member for Franklin. That hon. member had sanctimoniously turned up the whites of his eyes, and, with a Chadband expression, and in a Wesleyan parson whining tone, threw out an inuendo which lie knew to he false. (Sensation, and cries of order.) The SPEAKER : The lion, member must he aware that expressions such as those could not he allowed in the House. Mr. WOOD : Then such expressions should not be allowed to be made by other members; and if any one in that House made use of expressions towards him such as the lion, member for Franklin had done, he would return them. It was not true in any way that he had sold himself to the Superintendent of Auckland for £l5O for six mouths, a sum less by £7 10s. than that which lion, members of that House received from the Colonial Government. That was an inuendo which had been thrown out against him, which lie would not stand. And the hon. member had added with a sanctimonious voice, “ Lead us not into temptation.” Think of a man being tempted to sell himself for £l5O for six months ! What a terrible end he must come to. But when that hon. member came into that House mocking purity lie said nothing about tlie fact that he hall been negotiating in a private room with Ministers for the purchase of land for thousands and thousands of pounds, on which he was only to cover expenses, only to get a few insignificant shillings. (Cheers and laughter.) If he might he allowed, he would quote Scripture to the hon. member, and say to liim, “Take first the beam out of thine own eye, tlieu slialt
tliou hoc clearly to take tlie mote out of thy brother's eye.” He had been accused of selling himself for six months for L' 150, but he could sell himself for a much larger sum than that. He had been offered office by Mi'. Stafford in 1872, but declined, lie had been offered ofliee by Mr Williamson, but he declined ; and he would ask how many members were there in that House who would have done that? He had accepted office under Sir George Grey, because three days before the meeting of the Provincial Council that gentleman had told him he had not an ’executive officer to meet the Council with. He offered his sendees immediately, and Sir George Grey should have them as long as he wanted them, provided he had sufficient leisure, whether he received anything for it or not. He saw how the land lay. He knew that Sir George Grey would never bea nominated Superintendent, and if he (Mr. Wood) had chosen to come there and laud Ministers, he might have been Superintendent, and instead of getting £l5O for six months, might have got £OOO or £7OO a-year for a long while perhaps. (Cheers.) It might be that such insinuations respecting a member who was less known or had less modesty than he had might have done some injury, but he would be scatheless. He then entered into an explanation respecting the balance of £3OOO, and said that, as a fact, at the time he spoke, there was a credit balance of £1370, instead of a debit balance, as had been stated in error by the bank clerk. A Mem m: it : There is the mystery explained then. Mr. WOOD : Yes, but it shows there have been no lies. When gentlemen attempted to take advantage of an opponent and fix a stigma on his name, they should be sure they were right. When the lion, member for Auckland City West addressed the House on the second reading of the Bill, he told the Colonial Treasurer that there was no real surplus, but a manufactured surplus. In reply, the Colonial Treasurer had said lie should like to know how to manufacture a surplus, and challenged the lion, member to prove that he had manufactured a surplus. He (Mr. Wood) could tell liow it was done —• it was by borrowing money. Scarcely any members of that House in their private life would sit upon couches paid for by other people’s money, but they would come there and sit upon these horrid benches which were bought with other people’s money, even that wretched tawdry mixture of a church and dancing saloon—-(a laugh)—in which they met, had to be paid for out of other people’s money. The Ministerial residences were paid for, mended, and patched with other people’s money. In fact, travelling expenses were paid for out of other people’s money, and everything was charged on loans. After some further remarks, he expressed his opinion that an amendment should be made, and, if no one else did it, he should move, that the land fund shall be appropriated annually by the Parliament of the colony in such a manner and for such purposes as it may think tit. Mr. SHEPHERD drew attention to an inaccuracy in the calculations of the last speaker of some £28,000, having overlooked the fact that the Otago railways paid a great deal more than working expenses. Mr. BROWN moved, that the Government having intimated their intention of introducing a Bill constituting hoards of works in place of Provincial Councils, and as the same would have ail ■ important effect on the present discussion, it is expedient to adjourn this debate until the new Bill is before the House. Mr. STOUT spoke in favor of the amendment, and said the cardinal principle of the Abolition Bill was that the Assembly should vote the surplus revenue, and if boards of works were to vote that sum, the cardinal principal of the Bill was gone. The boards would be virtually Provincial Councils, and they were asking the provinces to borrow under a different name, and to give them eighteen bodies instead of eight. It was not for the sake of talking against time that the amendment was moved. It was a perfectly reasonable amendment. It simply asked for delay until the third Bill was forthcoming. Let the Bill be drafted between this and Tuesday, when it could be brought down. He would not argue the financial question, inasmuch as the statement of the Treasurer regarding this new Bill had completely taken away the old ground of argument. The Government should enable the House to see what would be the financial effect of this new system, of which they knew nothing more at the present than that the lion, member for Dunedin purposed bringing down a Bill constituting certain boards of works, which it was presumed would perform the functions of existing Provincial Councils. If the Government did not acquiesce in the adjournment they would be asking that House to proceed with a debate, the main aspect of which had boon changed by the new Bill proposed to be introduced by the Government. And he thought withal that the Government were to be highly commended for taking this last step. It was to their credit. In effect, they said, “After all that has been said, our ideas of abolition have become so completely muddled, that we deem it advisable to abandon it for the present.” Another phase of the question which had not yet been touched upon was this : the Opposition were not fighting for place or power. They did not desire to turn out the Ministry, because there were many men on the Government Benches whom they thought a great deal of. It was not, therefore, a personal question, it was simply one of principle. All they asked now was that the new Bill should he brought down, in order that there might be full and intelligible discussion of it. llow could a member be expected to vote on a question when he was not aware as to what lie was voting for ? In conclusion, he affirmed the opinion that nobody but the lion, member for Dunedin knew what really was in this Bill, and he hoped that it would be produced, that the House might make its acquaintance. /
Mr. TAKA MO AN A spoke against the Bill 'l'he Hon. KATENE supported the measure
Mr. SHEEHAN defended Mr. Wood from the charge levelled at him by Mr. T. L. Shepherd of having spoken to his constituents.
The House adjourned for the customary interval at 10.35. On resuming, after a pause, Mr. Alacaxdrew called attention to the state of the House. The hells having been rung, a quorum was soon in attendance. Mr. REII) explained the conduct of the authorities with regard to the sale of the Moa Elat block which had been brought up against them by speakers in favor of abolition. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT spoke in support of Mr. Brown’s amendment. Mr. WHITE moved the adjournment of the House. The motion was negatived on the voices. Mr. WHITE then addressed himself to the main question at a little length. Mr. MURRAY moved the adjournment of the debate. The motion was negatived on the voices. Mr. MURRAY supported Mr. Brown’s amendment. During Mr Alurray’s speech, Mr Stout (it being then one o’clock) raised a point of order that the House could not sit on Saturday without provision being made for so doing. The Speaker at once decided that Mr Murray could proceed, and he did. 'l'he question was then put, when, on a division, there appeared for Mr. Brown’s amendment, 15 ; against it, 37. Major ATKINSON said, that at this late hour lie would not reply, but would take an early opportunity of doing so on Tuesday. The original motion was then put and carried, and the Bill ordered to be committed on Tuesday. The House then adjourned. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 7. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. PETITION'S. The Hon. Mr. BONAR presented a petition signed by IS4 landowners in the vicinity of Water of Leith, Dunedin, praying for the diversion of the streams running into the said water, to augment the city water supply by iron pipes and not by the construction of a reservoir as proposed by tlie Corporation. A petition from Blenheim was received, having reference to the election of Mayor for that district. MOTIONS. The Hon. Air. BONAR moved, without notice, that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking that leave be given to Mr. T. L. Shepherd to attend before the Goldfields Committee, in order to his being examined oil the Goldfields Act Amendment Bill, No. 1. The Hon. Air. WATERHOUSE moved, without notice, that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking that leave be given for Alessrs. Reid and Alacaudrew to attend the Waste Lands Committee, in order to their being examined on the provisions of the Otago Waste Lauds Act Amendment Bill. The Hon. Dr. AIENZIES moved that a message be sent to tlie House of Representatives, asking that Sir Donald AlcLean, Air. Ilolleston, and Air. Reid, should attend the Select Committee of the Legislative Council appointed to inquire into the question as to whether the provisions of the Disqualification Act had been infringed. All three motions were carried. MESSAGES. The Hon. the SPEAKER announced that he had received messages from the House of Representatives, giving Air. Reid permission to attend the Goldfields Committee, and Air. Thomas Kelly to attend the Taranaki Waste Lands Committee. MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR. A message from the Governor re the Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill, 1875, war, received, and its consideration made an order of the day for next (this) day. NAPIER (lAS 151 LL. Private business having been called on, The Hon. Air. STOKES moved the second reading of the Napier Gas Bill. Some discussion took place, and the Bill was read a second time. PAPERS AND REPORTS. The Hon. Dr. BOLL EX laid on the table report from the Engineer-iu-Chief on railway surveys, report of Air. Holloway, and further papers from the Agent-General. A GRIEVANCE. The Hon. All-. NGATA'I’A asked the Hon. the Premier if he would lay upon the table of the Council any documents showing the authority under which a Crown Grant was issued to the Bishop of New Zealand for native land at Porirua for educational purposes ? The lion, gentleman spoke at some length, considering that a great wrong had been done. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that the better course for the lion, gentleman to pursue, if he had anything to complain of, would bo to move for the production of all papers in connection with the matter. He might state now, however, that he had been unable to find, up to the present, any other authority than the record of the issue of the Crown grant. PALMERSTON WATERWORKS KIEL. The Palmerston Waterworks Bill was read a third time and passed. MINING COMPANIES VALIDATION ACT. The Registration of Alining Companies Validation Act was read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. cminnix land purchase bill. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of the above Bill. Carried, and referred to AVaste Lands Committee. WELLINGTON ATI!EN.KUM. The Hon. Air. MANTELL moved the second reading of the Wellington Athenreum and Mechanics’ Institute Incorporation Bill, and in doing so remarked that it provided for
giving sufficient powers to the trustees to borrow money for effecting improvements in the property and increasing its value by building on it.
The Hon. Air. HOLAIES held that property of the kind should not lie jeopardised by giving power to mortgage and to sell, especially when the site was so valuable.
The Hon. Air. WATERHOUSE pointed out that no sale could take place except on the consent of a majority of the body corporate, and that the proceeds were to be devoted to purposes for which the endowment was made.
'l'he Hon. Air. AIENZIES supported the Bill, and considered that the great objection of AU. Holmes, namely, the value of the section, was an argument in favor of the Bill, which proposed to lease the shops in connection with the building, the rent from which would pay off the mortgage, and leave a margin for a sinking fund if necessary. He took it, moreover, that the trustees, being a popular body elected for the management of the institution should have the supreme control thereof. The Bill was read a second time, to be committed presently. OAMARU WATERWORKS BILL. Some discussion ensued on the motion to read this Bill a second time. The Bill provides that power he given to the Corporation of Oamaru to borrow £60,000 for the purpose of constructing waterworks to supply the town with water from the Waitaki River. The Bill was read a second time, to be committed to-morrow. PLANS OP TOWNS REGULATION BILL. The Hon. Air. WATERHOUSE, in charge of this Bill, which had been carried through the House of Representatives by Air. Charles O’Neill, moved its second reading. The Hon. Colonel BRETT considered the Bill had been carelessly drawn up, referring more particularly to a clause providing for the digging of holesiu which todeposit uightsoil and dirt, which clause he characterised as preposterous and outrageous. Other matters there were to which he objected, and he hoped they would be remedied in committee. The Hon. Air. AIILLEII highly approved of the Bill, and thought it would have been well had the Bill been introduced some twenty years ago. He had no doubt that the little difficulties which troubled the Hon. Colonel Brett would be settled in committee. The Hon. Air. BONAR supported the Bill. The Hon. Air. HART supported the Bill, but thought there should be some minimum width for streets fixed. The Hon. Dr. I’OLLEN cordially supported the second reading. Read a second time, and ordered to lie committed presently. AUCKLAND CITY ENDOWMENT BILL. The second reading of the above was made an order of the day for the day following. NELSON CITY LOAN BILL. This Bill, to authorise a loan of £IO,OOO for extension of gas and water works, was read a second time, and ordered to be committed tomorrow. ANN HOOD GRANT BILL. This Bill, introduced by the Hon. Dr. Pollen, is to give a, Airs. Hood the title to certain land, the right to which Airs. Hood had acquired when she was a Airs. Alurch, a widow. Both Air. and Airs. Hood had left the colony, and the land had remained for many years in a neglected condition, but now it had become valuable, as it was required for railway purposes ; and as the couple had separated, and nothing could be ascertained as t<» the whereabouts of Air. Hood, it was proposed to take the present step. The Hon. Air. WATERHOUSE apprehended that an injustice might be done Air. Hood, by depriving him of that which he became entitled to on marrying, and suggested that the Bill should be referred to a select committee after the second reading, which lie would not oppose. CAMIMIEI.LTOWN ATHEN.KUM BILL. This Bill was to be further considered in committee, but was discharged from the orderpaper, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Alknzies, and made an order of the day for next (this) day. IN COMMITTEE. The Council then went into committee on the following, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again the day following :• —Wellington Atheuaunn and Mechanics’ Institute Incorporation Bill, Plans of Towns Regulation Bill, Goldfields Act Amendment Bill, No. 2, Taranaki Waste Lands Bill, Wellington Harbor Reserves Sale Bill. The Council adjourned at 4.50 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 7. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. NOTICES OF MOTION. Air. REEVES to move, in committee on the Abolition of Provinces Bill, as an amendment to section 16, —The Colonial Treasurer shall, for the purpose of providing the several Boards of Works hereafter to he constituted with the means of carrying on public works within the districts, from time to time pay over to the said Boards ono gross fourth part of so much of the revenue as shall accrue from the sale and leasing of Crown lands within the several provincial districts of the colony in which such Boards of Works are or may lie constituted. Air. O’CONOR to move iu committee that the following be added to clause 5 of the Abolition Bill:—“Wherever not less than threefifths of the registered electors entitled to vote iu the election of members of the House of Representatives, resident within any district whereof the area shall not be less than 500,000 acres, shall petition the Governor in Council to establish a new provincial district comprising such district, the Governor in Council, by order published iu the New Zealand Gazette, shall, with all convenient speed, establish such provincial district accordingly ; subject, nevertheless, to the fulfillment of the following condi-
tions, that is to say : —l. Such petition shall be signed by at least 150 registered electors, exclusive of persons of the native race, and shall contain a sufficient description of the district proposed to be comprised in the new provincial district. 2. There shall he at the date of the order in Council establishing any provincial district under this Act, a population bona, fide resident within such district, within an area of not less than 1,000,000 acres, of at least 1000 inhabitants, exclusive of aboriginal inhabitants of the colony. 3. Such new district may comprise parts of more than one provincial district.” Sir GEORGE GREY to move, —For all correspondence and memoranda between Air. Tlios. Russell, as representing the Shorthand Sawmill Company, and the Government, relating to the timber leases held by the company over the Opango, Alangarehu, Hotoritori, and other blocks at the Thames. Sir GEORGE GREY to move, —For copies of two opinions of Solicitor-General regarding power of Governor’s deputy to take by proclamation a block of land out of the Tairua goldfield ; together with copies of all correspondence and Niegrams connected with those opinions. QUESTIONS. In reply to Air. H arrison, the Hon. Air. Reynolds, for the Alinister of Justice, said the Government did not intend to appoint a Deputy-Commissioner of Stamp Duties at (ireymouth. In reply to Air. Rollestox, the Hon. Alajor Atkinson said the whole of his correspondence relating to the raising of the £4,000,000 loan was in the hands of the printer. In reply to Air. ,T. C. Brown, the Hon. Air. Reynolds said Government did intend to erect a telegraph and post-office at Havelock, Otago, in connection with the railway station there. In reply to Air. Bradshaw, the Hon. Air. Richardson said the Government did intend, during the present session, to bring in a Bill to amend the Adulteration of Food Act. In reply to Air. Alukray, the Hon. Air. Reynolds said the Government did not purpose to further amend the law relating to overloading vessels. He explained the provisions of the Shipping Act, and gave a synopsis of the various by-laws on the subject. In one case recently the Government had taken action, and finding the law; quite sufficient, did not propose to legislate further. In answer to Air. Stout, the Hon. Alajor Atkinson said an opportunity had been given shipowners to compete with the New Zealand Shipping Company in obtaining the contract for the conveyance of emigrants from London to New Zealand. privilege again. Air. BUCIvLAND moved a motion to the effect that it be an instruction to the committee appointed to consider whether members who had dealt with the Government in land come under Disqualification Act, also to enquire whether officers of the Provincial Councils who held a seat in the House did not come under the sth clause of the Disqualification Act ? This section set forth that no person being a nominee of any officer of the Government had a right to a seat in the House. He believed, on the authority of Dr. Featherston, that a Superintendent was an executive officer of the General Government, and consequently that all officers appointed by the Superintendents came under the Disqualification Act. A long discussion ensued, the following lion, members taking part : —Alessrs. Alacaudrew, Reid, O’Conor, Creighton, Atkinson, Sheehan, and Stafford ; Sir George Grey (who thought the Government should speak its mind, for if they believed there was anything in the resolution, they should stop the Abolition Bill at once—(A laugh.)—the lion. Air. Richardson (who said it was not the duty to usurp the position of the House) ; Alessrs. T. L. Shepherd, Stout, Luckie, AVood, Kelly, AlcGlashan, and Cuthbertsou (who suggested that the lion, member making the proposition should take the matter to the Supreme Court, and sue for the penalty prescribed by the Act.) Air. Bucklaxd then applied for leave to withdraw the motion, saying, ho should take other steps to sift the matter. Air. Macandrew objected to withdraw an amendment made by him, seeking to make the motion apply to Superintendents. A division was taken on the amendment, and it was rejected, there being 23 ayes and 40 lines. The debate on the main question was then resumed, and after a few words from Alessrs. Alontgomery and T. Kelly, the motion was allowed to be withdrawn. THE ABOLITION BILL. The Hon. Alajor ATKINSON, in moving that the House resolve itself into committee to consider the Abolition Bill, said, before proceeding to consider the matter under discussion, he must express his thanks to the House for its indulgence in having allowed him to accept this opportunity of replying to the arguments brought forward in a previous deflate, instead of pressing him to reply at a late hour last sitting, when closing the debate on that occasion. He did not propose upon the present occasion to follow the speeches of all the Opposition members, for the very sufficient reason that the whole of them had been successfully answered by lion, gentlemen who had addressed the House from the Alinisterial side. But he wished to except from the category that of the lion, member for Akaroa (Air. Montgomery). He could not go into the speech of the lion, member for Darnell, as that gentleman had, as upon previous occasions, brought figures which were but fragmentary. He did not deal with the question as a whole, and therefore it would be a waste of time to follow him, and lie (Alajor Atkinson) should deal specially with the speech made by the hon. member for Akaroa who had brought forward all that the hon. member for Parnell had subsequently adduced. The speech of the hon. member for Akaroa, all must have heard with very great satisfaction, for he had undoubtedly "grappled with the finances of the colony as a whole, and had announced unmistakably that the re-
venues of the colony should be used to meet the necessities and requirements of the whole of the colony. Such a declaration, coining from that gentleman, was a source of very great gratification to him (the Treasurer), and another declaration was equally gratifying that the land revenue should be localised and assisted by relieving it of some charges now imposed upon it by law. He not only recognised those facts, but another, which must lie apparent to any other gentleman who well considered the condition of the colony—that the large and wealthy provinces of Otago and Canterbury had already incurred liabilities to the full extent of their revenues—(No) —and that the land revenues of these provinces would for all practical purposes in two years be taken to meet liabilities imposed, not by the colony, but voluntarilyundertaken by those provinces themselves. (No, no.) He should be able to prove it presently. The lion, member had recognised this, and further, that whether the provinces were abolished or not, the only possible way by which relief could be obtained was by a system of colonial finance—that alone by colonial finance could national disaster be a\ oided, and he had proved by his own figures and deduction from his figures that abolition was actually necessary. His lion, friend had began his speech by relating a history of the financial condition of the colony from IS7O up to the present time. It was not his (the Colonial Treasurer’s) intention to follow him tin ougli that history, but he should content himself by stating what was the real position of the provinces in respect to the Public Works Scheme as it now* stood according to law, and had practically stood since IS7O. The position was this : that the land funds of the various provinces were liable to the whole of the interest and charges upon all sums of money expended upon railways and other public works within the respective provincial boundaries. That was the position according to law, and entirely irrespective of abolition or no abolition a fact which had apparently been altogether overlooked by the gentlemen on the other. side, who had seemed to think that various charges upon localities were in some way connected with the Aboiition Bill. The only effect of abolition, however, would be to relieve the land fund to an appreciable extent. His lion, friend then took the years 1577 and 1873, proceeding to apply the crucial test of expenditure and ways and means in those years to the financial proposals of the Government ; and lie had proved satisfactorily, at least to his own mind, that the Government proposals would not stand such a test, and that there would be a luge deficiency. Now he (the Colonial 1 reasurer) proposed to give his view of the matter, and place before the House what he conceived would be the financial position of the colony, and some of the provinces, in 1877 and IS7B. Before proceeding to that, however, he should like to say a few words with regard to the land fund. His lion, fnend had estimated the land fund for the years 1577-S as likely to amount to the average of the last six years, namely, £580,000. He was prepared to accept that estimate as leasonaole, but he would at once say that the Government were quite determined that, as far as they were concerned, no land should be sold for revenue purposes. (Cheers.) They were fully alive to the duty and necessity of fixing upon the land a large number of the immigrants who had been introduced at so great a cost, and also of fixing upon the land the young men born in the colony and, as far as possible, reasonable provision would be made for them, and land left available for their occupation. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, he would accept the estimate of the lion, member for Akaroa of £580,000 as reasonable, and ho should be disposed to distribute the revenue arising from'various provinces as follows:—Auckland, £60,000 ; Taranaki, £23,000; Wellington, £3 00,000; Hawke’s Bay, £17,000; Nelson, £17,000; Marlborough, £10,000; Canterbury, £l-15,000; Westland £12,00(1 ; Otago, £200,000. These were the amounts of land revenue he anticipated each of the respectively to have in 1577 and 1878, and he thought the estimate was not exaggerated but would be fullv realised, always supposing care was taken in the administration of the lands. It was necessary to state that there was nearly £1,000,000, balance of loans (not £166,000, as the lion, member for Clutha had stated), to bo spent in public works ; and when this was spent there would be chargeable upon the various provinces, under the present law, amounts as followsOtago, £2,500,000 ; Canterbury (inclusive of laihvays and other public works, which the Government were to take over), £2,000,000 • W ellington, £2,250,000, and so on ; but it was unnecessary for him to state the figures as to the other provinces, because lie intended only to examine the position of the larger provinces. He would also state that in makiiw the calculations with which he should directly trouble the House ho had deducted 3 per cent, per annum as a probable retain from the railways throe years from the present time, over and above working expenses. It was possible that this estimate might be slightly too high. Hu was not prepared to say it was not; but he would point out that the only clfeet of it being too high would lie this : that a still larger sum would have to be raised by the provinces, either as a charge against the land fund, or by means of local °rates J here could be no doubt that a very grave question arose from the consideration of the proposal of the Government, namely, how far it was possible for the land fund to bo relieved from present charges by some means to. be devised. Bor himself, without committing the Government to any scheme he would say that the Government were fully alive to the importance of the matter, anil they should look upon it as their duty durumthe recess to consider how it could he donehow the land fund could be relieved from some charges, not put upon it by the Abolition Bill but by law, in order that it might ho placed in a position enabling it to bear the cost of construction of local public works. With these remarks, he proposed to consider the
probable, position of Otago as it would be affected in 1877 and 1878, and in listening to his figures the House must recollect that lie had adopted, to a certain extent, the estimates for the present financial year, which he had that day laid upon the table of the House ; but he had cliiminated a number of doubtful sources of revenue, such as sale of Government buildings, &c., and he had also increased the amount of capitation money, estimating it, not upon the basis of present population, but upon the population as it would lie in 1877 and 187 S. Tlie revenue then would be £200,000 a year, lliis, with the increased capitation money, would make a total revenue of £341,471. The expenditure would be £357,567, leaviim a deficiency of £13,003. Mr. HE ID ; That’s colonial financing. The Hon. Major ATKINSON : Nig it is provincial financing. He trusted his friend would be able to prove the calculation fallacious, but he thought it would be difficult. This was not owing to any charges to be placed on the land fund by the Abolition Bill, but simply charges imposed upon the laud fund by the present law. How was the province to grant pound for pound to the road boards or continue public works bavin"- a deficiency of £13,000 ! To his mind this was instructive. Then he came to Canterbury, and here again had based his calculations upon the provincial estimates which he had laid upon the table that afternoon, and he had also rejected all extraordinary or uncertain sources of revenue, and had added increased capitation allowance in proportion to what might be expected to lie the increased number of the population. He found that the total income would be £290,972, the expenditure would he £240,000 odd, leaving a balance in round numbers of £50,000, from which to execute public works and make grants to road boards, and municipalities. If these figures were right, and he did not think he could lie contradicted when he said they were, it was quite evident that what he had said at the beginning was correct, that the land funds of the provinces had already by law been pledged to the utmost amount they were capable of bearing, and that without land being sold for purposes of revenue there would be practically nothing for these provinces at the end of two years from now. That was entirely irrespective of the question of abolition at all, and supposim** they were unable to dab their hands into the colonial purse meanwhile, a course which lie w as sure the lion, member for Akaroa would not consent to, for he had spoken very strongly of the sins of those Colonial Treasurers and members of the House who in past times had allow ed them to do so, and had thereby done a great wrong to the State. It was also evident that there could be no great inducement for a Colonial Treasurer looking to the futuie, to endeavor to take over these two provinces for the sake of gain. The lion, gentleman, after hearing the figures quoted, would see that no Colonial I reasurer would take the responsibility if. the only object in view was to get a possible £36,000, and he would feel that the argument in lespect to these two rich provinces, which were supposed to be so much coveted, must quite fall to the ground. With these facts before the House, he invited lion, members to consider the general question, which had been so well but so fallaciously put by the lion, member for Akaroa. First, he would take the total expenditure and the total receipts, out of which the lion, member had produced the large deficit of £249,000. If lie (the I reasurer) had been a nervous man, no doubt he would have been much alarmed by the lion, gentleman’s deductions, but as ho was not of sueli a temperament, and moreover had a little knowledge of the figures, lie had not been alarmed, and must now submit that the hon. gentleman was entirely wrong. The first item on the hon. members list of receipts lie must entirely disagree with, for reasons which he would presently show', and which, he trusted, would be sufficiently clear to the House. The hon. gentleman proposed to take as the Consolidated Revenue of the year the sum £1,460,000, thus doing away with the fact of increasing revenue, and reducing the revenue to the level of the revenue collected iu the worst year of depression the colony ever experienced, viz., 1870 and 1871, when the Customs were at the lowest ebb. He could not agree that the Customs would be reduced to such an extent as the lion, member prophesied. W hat data had the hon. member foi such a calculation ! It must be remembeied that tiie Government were goiii"* to spend fully £2,000,000 this year forpublic works, and nearly £2,000,000 next year. And besides this, large sums would be spent by Provincial Governments, especially Canterbury, and more or less by all provinces, so that this year there would be spent considerably over £2,.'<00,000, and next year fully £2,000,000. This being the case, it was perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Customs revenue would certainly increase tins year a good deal, and next year slightly. He did not wish to put too glowing a color upon the statement, because no doubt the hon. member had really decided to awaken the country to the possibility of its being iu a fix. He did not desire to exaggerate iu the least, but lie could not acquiesce in what the hon member had said. Even supposing there w r as no such expenditure as that proposed, the Customs would not fall so rapidly as had been stated, but would diminish gradually, and it would take three or four years for the country to reach the lowest state of depression. He took that as a matter beyond dispute. The people for some time past had been earning a high rate of wages, and must do. so for the next two years. During that period they had acquired habits which they could not possibly throw olf suddenly and absolutely W'ithin one or two years. If they took the average revenue for the past ten years, they would lie perfectly safe ; and in making his estimate for 1877 and 187 S lie had done that, and taken £20,000 off the estimate for the present year. That would he a perfectly reasonable amount, much more so than the figures of the lion, member for ’ Akaroa, for he would reduce it from £1,750,000
£1,460,000. If such a crisis should unhappily arise, it would bring the colony and almost everybody in it to a state of bankruptcy. It would mean that wool would become worthless, and that corn would lie unsaleable. He could not conceive such a thing, and must absolutely refuse to make provision for. such a change. If such distress should arise in the colony, then we would have to meet it, and have to apply an extraordinary remedy for an extraordinary disease ; but there was no reason to anticipate such a state of affairs, and from present information he should estimate the Consolidated lie venue for 1877 and IS7S at £1,730,000, or £20,000 less than tliat of the present year, and should accept the estimate of provincial revenue at £75,000. He had already stated that lie should suppose the railways to yield 3 per cent. ; but, as lie had already shown, it was a matter of local concern whether they did yield this amount or not, because if they did not a correspondingly larger amount would have to be charged against the land funds of the provinces in which they were situated. The receipts from railways, therefore, would be about £226,500, the^ amount spent in railways being about £7,500,C00. After glancing at some of the details of the income, he passed on to say that with, regard to expenditure he should also have to disagree with the hon. member, and in this respect, lie thought the House would agree "All him that neither this Government nor any other Government would be allowed by the House to bring forward increased estimates in prospect of a falling revenue. (Hear, hear.) It was quite impossible that the House would permit such a thing, and therefore the hon. member s calculation as to the increased cost of departments was completely wrong. He.said lie purposed to keep the estimates as they were this year, and then went through the various items, mentioning amongst others that education would be set down at £150,000, instead of £1.4( i,OOO, as heretofore, the reason of the increase being this, that the Government held that it would he a duty to make proper provision for the education of the children all over the colony, and so remedy tlie defects in this respect which had cropped up under the provincial system. He indicated a total expenditure of £2>4"3,650, to cover which there was a revenue of £2,609,000 ; and thus it would be seen that after making provision for the whole of the services of the colony, there would be a surplus of £175.344 instead of a deficiency of £249,009, as the hon. member for Akaroa’had made out.. He contended that the figures he had submitted would be found correct, and that it would be seen that the sums lie had mentioned would be sufficient to provide efficient government for the whole of the colony. It would be observed by the hon. member that in thus estimating what he should receive from the laud fund, lie had, as it were, taken the land fund as a whole, and although he had not treated it in the same way as the hon. member had, yet he had brought out the same result within £3OOO. He might be told that in. the way he had treated it it would not he fair, because lie bad not alloeatedsurplusestotlie various provinces, but with the permission of the House, ho would just show liow the various piov inces would be affected by this change, and show what deficiency or surplus there would be in each individual case. Auckland would be unable to meet its liabilities by £36,272, Taranaki would have a surplus of £8215, Wellington a surplus of £17,398, Hawke’s Bay a deficit of £4746, Nelson a deficit of £327, Marlborough a deficit of £3978, Canterbury a surplus of £35,961 and Otagoasurplusof £5754. Thus, supposing the land revenues to be localised, surplus would amount iu the aggregate to £6/ ,382, while the total deficiencies would be £64,325, which would have to he provided out of the surplus, or by any other means which the House might think right to direct. It would be the duty of the House to ascertain what were really the positions of the land funds of these provinces, and if satisfied that there was no reasonable prospect of the land funds increasing, it would be absolutely necessary to make some better provision for them. He had shown that there would he ample revenue to make provision not only for these deficiencies but also to give relief to the land funds of other provinces to a reasonable amount. He submitted that he had satisfactorily demonstrated that no possible advantage could lie gained by the colonial revenue in the way of seizing provincial revenues, and he believed he had also shown that the prospects of the whole colony depended upon the abolition of provinces taking place as quickly as possible. It seemed to him—and he believed tlie House would agree with him—that he had proved that the whole of the promises of tlie Government could lie fulfilled easily, without tlie issue of Treasury bills at all ; for whilst tlie total deficiencies would not exceed £64,000, there was ..a surplus revenue to the amount of £175,000. Before sitting down, ho desired to say that the proposals which the Government made the other day were made for the purposcof showing good faith in the intention to allocate to the province from which it was derived the surplus land fund. That these Bills iu any way affected the principle of the measures of tlie Government, as hon. members opposite said, or that the Government had in any way changed front, he entirely denied. After his statement of that afternoon, lie hoped the Opposition would he more chary—(a laugh)— and that they would not continue to make such assertions as that the Government were desirous of seizing the land fund. The principle of the Bill was to secure to localities a fair share of the land fund, and, as he had previously stated, the Government would lie exceedingly glad if tlie country were divided into shires and the surpluses of the land revenues allocated to each by law. He trusted lion, gentlemen opposite would turn their attention to the practical side of the Bill, and show, if it could be shown, that the land fund of these provinces was not pledged to the fullest amount it could bear.. The Government had no intention of abandoning one single principle of the Bill, but intended to push it steadily forward ; and
believing that it was supported by a large majority of the public throughout the country, and a majority of that House, they desired to pass it through this session. (Cheers.) Mr. MURRAY asked when would the Government be prepared to bring down the new Bills?
The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that as soon as ready the Government would ask leave of the House to introduce the Bills. Mr. MONTGOMERY combatted the arguments of the Colonial Treasurer, especially where the latter had made reference to the speech delivered by him (the speaker), and challenged the accuracy of his estimates, as he did on a former occasion. He maintained that there was a probability of the revenue falling off,. especially in the event of the price of wool falling off. As to the railway, he contended that the estimated revenue was considerably in advance of what would fie actually realised.
At the conclusion of Mr. Montgomery’s speech, it being then within ten minutes of half-past five o’clock, the House took the usual adjournment.
On resuming, Mr. t) RORKE rose, and said lie was given to understand that preliminary discussion on the Abolition Bill was drawing to a close, so he luid to avail himself of the present occasion to make a few remarks before the Bill went into committee, as when sitting in tlie chair he would be debarred from discussion. The title of the Bill was sufficient to show him that no good was to be found within it. He deprecated tlie proposal of the lion, member for Timam, that the legislative power should be monopolised in one central body. Sir Julius Vogel had at one time said that such a policy meant political life and prosperity at one central point and political paralysis at the extremities. One of the stock arguments of Government supporters was that the people were in favor of a change. He denied this. In Auckland, a man whom he would not designate as a great pro-consul, but as the apostle of provincialism, had been returned at the last election, and the man of opposite opinion who put up in opposition to him, was compelled iguominiously to retire and wait for another day; and that gentleman had been found subsequently to go in for centralism, gum taxation, and was an unmitigated—a miserable failure. Did the people express themselves in favor of abolition when they elected the hon. member for Otago ? and the same might be said as to the member for Marlborough (Mr. Ward) and other members. He did not agree with an early remark of the Colonial Treasurer, that Auckland was a public scandal. What scandal did the province of Auckland exhibit ? Who could say that it was due to tlie extravagance o. the Auckland Provincial Council ? The scandal rested with the General Assembly, who had carried on a systematic robbery with respect to Auckland. He then referred to what was called the Thames scandal, viz., the degradation of the police to political agents to secure Mr. Williamson’s return to tlie Superintendency. The facts of the case were these. Mr. Gillies was elected, and why did not he, if he thought such was the case, bring about the punishment of the police ; instead of doing this, however, lie brought the then able Inspector under the favorable notice of the General Government. Returning again to the Bill, he believed disastrous effects would follow the nomination of officers to positions of power. He admitted Provincial Councils had undergone obloquy, because they watched, lynx-eyed, every item of expenditure, in tlie interests of tlie people. What the General Government liked was lumpsums. He would ask, had not the people done their duty in electing the member for City West and others? The Hon. the Premier ought to accept the challenge held out, and g«< down with his hon. friend to the hustings, and submit himself to the voice of the people. The Abolition Bill was a whole system of bribes to compass their objects. Bribes to Wellington, bribes to Otago anil Canteibury, and bribes to Superintendents—it had been carried so far, that one Superintendent had been offered a pension. But they had not descended so lmv as to lie bought by promises which were as delusive as those now hold out iu this Bill. He foresaw if this Bill were passed that there would follow political torpor, political stagnation, and political degradation. The Bill meant the stamping out of all those grand political aspirations which ought to influence the people of the country. Mr. MAC AN DREW said he had listened attentively to the speeeli of the Treasurer which had bristled with figures. He had stated that there would lie a deficiency in Otago next year of £13,000, but did not point out how that was to he met ; and as Otago contributed one-third the revenue of the whole colonv, he should like to know what was to be the result if Otago continued to he unable to meet its engagements in successive years. As to the financial phrase of the question, it had been fully demonstrated that the statements of the Government were fallacious. He was surprised to find that no member of the Government had made any attempt to answer the arguments of the member for Parnell, and he must therefore conclude that those were unanswerable, lvx aiki/o nihil jit. The people were being deceived by a kind of political hocus pocus. They were told that the colony would gain somewhere about £29,000 by abolishing nine provinces, the maintenance of which cost hut £35,000. It had been left to the hon. the Colonial Treasurer to discover the philosopher’s stone, hut they were bein" deceived by a glamor of figures. He believed that a time would come, and that not fardistant, when not a single sixpence of the land fund in any part of the colony would be left, notwithstanding the assertions of the Colonial Treasurer that afternoon. The only way to save it was to borrow more money, or to apply the pruning knife to the gigantic central Government. He would even do away with the Californian service itself, and abolish the Native and Defence Departments. I£e was sometimes inclined to think that tlie sooner the Bill was passed the better, because they would
more speedily get into that political chaos out of which might emerge a better order of things. 'But lie would not do evil that good might come. He challenged the Government to go to the country, and concluded by avowing his intention to oppose the Bill at every stage.
Mr. STOUT, after remarking on the apparent unwillingness of the Government to address the House, moved an amendment to the following effect:—“ Whereas the House has, by the second reading of the Abolition of Provinces Bill, affirmed the desirableness of effecting some change in the Constitution of the colony, and whereas the proposed change has never been considered by the people, and great differences of opinion exist as to the form such a change should take, this House is of opinion that an opportunity should be given to the Ministry to mature their proposals, and to submit them when matured to the constituencies, by dissolving the House; and that in the meantime no further progress should be made in the Abolition of Provinces Bill.” He wished to place on the records of the House the opinions of the members as to the question now before it. Au evidence that the Government were premature in their action might bo seen in the fact that tiie members of the Government displayed a marked unwillingness to discuss the financial aspect of the question. It was perfectly evident that Government supporters dare not venture to discuss the financial question, because they knew not at what moment the Government might bring down statements to place that question in a totally new light. It was au extraordinary thing that when an lion, member holding the high position of Chairman of Public Accounts Committee addressed the House he was told that his figures were grotesque, aud secondly that they were fragmentary. He asked what could he the impression of those who had not the opportunity of becoming so well acquainted with tliu public finance as the lion, member for Parnell f What could lie the feelings of the people outside as to the subject when a phrase of that kind was applied to the statements of one who was supposed to be in a position to understand the subject of which he was treating ! It could not but leave them in a state of doubt as to the whole question. It implied that the hon. member was unacquainted with the financial position of the country. If so, he (the speaker) asked the Government to stand up and give the House their views of the question —a thing they had sedulously avoided doing hitherto. He then went on to show that the statement of the Colonial Treasurer last year did not agree with the statement made this year, and further, that the statement made at the beginning of the session did not agree with the statement made that afternoon. The Colonial Treasurer had shown that instead of the Otago land revenue being able to pay the charge made upon it by law, there would Ire a deficit of £13,000. He asked, therefore, was it fair to lead the people to believe that they were to get pound for pound on their rates out of the land revenue, and that the surplus revenue was to be expended on public works ! That statement went far to prove that the pr<iposals of the Government were a sham, a delusion, and a snare. The truth was, that within two years not only would the land revenue be exhausted, but there would lie no subsidies to road boards and municipalities. In fact, tire Government, with all their economy and saving, would have a deficiency of £13,000. He would ask what would Ire the reception of a candidate who should go to his constituents with such a statement ' He proceeded further to criticise the statement of the Colonial Treasurer, and said according to that statement tire people would have to take into account in considering this measure whether a land tax should be imposed or not. He thought it was not too much to ask the Government to remit this question to the constituencies. Reverting to the question of constitutional power, he admitted their power, but questioned their right as an expiring Parliament to do so, and quoted “Todd’s Parliamentary Government” to strengthen his argument. This Parliament could not exist longer than a few months, and it was not only a measure brought down to au expiring Parliament, but was a breach of a most solemn pledge made to the country last session. A change was proposed by a Ministry that pledged themselves only a year ago that no such change should take place. It had been stated that this was an experienced Parliament, which was capable of dealing with tlie question. It simply meant that certain members who were voting in opposition to the sentiments of their constituents would not he returned next Parliament, such as the members for Dimstau, Mount Ida, AVakatipu, and others. They were there to represent not the views of their constituencies, but to represent themselves, which would account for the support given by some honorable members to the Government. Ho asked was it reasonable that the Government should ask the House to go into committee ou a Bill for the abolition of provinces, when they had not yet declared what they proposed to substitute. It was with this view that lie wished to place ou record the reasons lie had for opposing the Bill going into committee. He mould move the amendment. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD refuted with scorn the allegation of the lion, member for Cavcrsham, that certain members did not represent the views of their constituencies. With respect to himself, he could assure the hon. member, or any otlierhon. member, that lie represented tiie views of his constituents. When those insinuations were made by the member for Tuapeka, lie (Mr. Shepherd) had treated them with contempt, but the hon. member for (’aversliam had roused him to convey to the House his opinion of that hon. member, who had fallen considerably in his (Mr. Shepherd's) estimation. He then referred to the public meetings so much talked of, to show that the majority of votes were in favor of abolition, and reviewed several members of the Opposition—the member for
Tuapeka aud the member for Parnell amongst them. The latter gentleman lie described as a political weathercock ; and said of Mr. Macamlrew that he had done more than any man to bring the affairs of the colony into au advanced state of rottenness, because he would do anything to secure the land fund of Otago. The land fund had been sacrificed, to lavish money on the settled districts. The sales of land had been pledged for three years in advance. Mr. MERVYX spoke against the amendment.
The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said that were lie not thoroughly satisfied that he was carry - ingoutthe viewsof his constituents, lie would not vote and act as he did. The trust remitted to him by his constituents should be well cared for by him. He denied in into that he had pledged himself to his constituents to oppose abolition of the provinces of the Middle Island. What lie had said was this, that if at the time the abolition resolutions for the North Island were brought down those • if the Middle Island had been included, lie would have said “ no but now that the wish for abolition was universal, lie was not going t> leave Otago and Canterbury to he peeked at by tiie rest of the colony, as would lie the ease were Provincial Government retained alone in them. ►Sir GEORGE GREY denied that the tendency of a former speech of his had been, as alleged by the Native Minister, to bring about the disruption of the Empire ; it was the Government measures that tended that way. He warned the Government that they were approaching a stage of the measure likely to bring about a serious contest between the minority aud the majority. He was determined to resist, by every means which the rules of the House allowed, a measure which lie considered monstrous. Mr. READER WOOD entreated for the opinions expressed by Mr. Reynolds the full justice those opinions deserved. Mr. REID supported the amendment, aud said no matter how determined the majority might be, it would be impossible for them to obtain the passing of the Bill that session. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT addressed the House at great length. He maintained that the promises of the Government were bribes which could not be paid, and compared the statement of the proposals as they affected the provinces to a company prospectus. The amendment was then put, and ou a division was lost by a majority of ”2. The votes being 44—22. COMMITTEE. The House then went into committee on the Abolition Bill, but before the title of the Bill was agreed to, it was decided that progress should be reported and leave obtained to sit again. THE ABOLITION BILL. The House having resumed, progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again un Thursday at half-past 2 o’clock. The House then adjourned. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, September 8. The Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. Petitions were presented, a discussion arising as to whether the Council should receive a petition of an unsuccessful suitor in the Supreme Court, who complained of partiality being shown by Mr. Justice Johnston and Mr. Chief Justice Prendergast. The petitions were eventually received, and ordered to be laid upon the table. BILLS PASSED THROUGH COMMITTEE. The Oamaru Waterworks Bill and the Nelson City Loan Bill and Wellington Athememn Bill -were passed through committee. WELLINGTON HARBOR RESERVES BILL. This Bill was considered in committee. The Hon. Mr. BOXAR opposed the Bill, for it seemed that really the City Corporation of Wellington was paying unnecessarily a large sum towards the support of the province. In fact, the Corporation was giving the Provincial Council a bonus, for it was paying to the province a sum of money for the right to make available for harbor purposes land which the General Government had handed over to the province for the purpose of making harbors. The consideration to be given by the Council was threefold : First, there was a sum of £30,000; next, it had to take over aud pay off a mortgage now existing on the land by the Wellington Trust and Loan Society ; and thirdly, had to pay the cost of reclamation. The second item, he had heard, would amount to £25,000, and the amount to be expended in reclamation would be something like £3OOO per acre. This seemed a very large responsibility indeed for the Corporation to take upon its shoulders, and, as lie was informed, a responsibility which the Corporation was not in a position to undertake. Their ideas as to how the money was to he raised also seemed to he of a very vague and indefinite character, for in looking at the evidence of Mr. Dransfield, the ex-Mayor, and who seemed to have made the arrangements for the purchase, he found that in reply to a question lie had said he did not know from what fund the interest on the money was to he paid, and had further said that where the money was to come from was a question. He had also looked through the evidence of the present Mayor, Mr. Moorhouse, hut at no point could lie see anything about au arrangement having been made as to how the Council was to take up this money. It was not disclosed upon what trusts this laud had been granted to tiie Provincial Government, hut no doubt it was specially set apart for harbor purposes, and that being so, should not have been sold by tiie Provincial Government to obtain money for spending in other directions. Then again, it became a question whether if the Corporation exhausted itself in purchasing this land it would ho able to provide for the proper maintenance of the wharves aud harbors. At any rate it should be a necessity on the part of the Corporation to do this. It was perfectly clear that the present wharf was quite inadequate for the business of the port, which evidently was fast increasing. It was the duty of the Court-
oil to make it so, and he had heard it was contemplated to spend a sum of £50,000 in increasing the wharf accommodation, but if the Parliament allowed the Corporation to pay this extraordinary bonus to the Provincial Government, it was not likely that the Corporation would he able to spend this sum without largely increasing its indebtedness by more borrowing. It was the duty of Parliament, in the public interest, to see to this matter, and to see that the funds were properly spent. By the statement of the Minister for Public Works, he saw that the Government proposed to spend money in constructing a railway wharf ; hut he did not see that it was-the duty of the Government to do that. Why should the Council not do that instead of giving a bonus to the Provincial Government ? If the sale took place, the money should he devoted to harbor purposes, aiulif the Corporation gained any profit, that also should go towards promoting the same object. But it was a question whether there would lie any profit. It was true that it had been stated that some reclaimed laud had been sold at the rate of £17,000 per acre ; but he dared to say there had been some exceptional circumstances in connection with the transaction, and that extreme price would not be obtained again ; and he doubted whether the Corporation would get £130,000 for the laud they proposed to buy, for although the city was increasing to a certain extent, demand for land would not continue at the same rate as at present it stood. Another fact which had been lost sight of was the fact that the Corporation would have to pay interest ou this £55,000 almost immediately, although they would not be able to deal with the land for a considerable time. He did not think it right that the Corporation should be called upon to help the province to construct public works. Some time ago, in IS7I he thought, the Council had purchased land from the Provincial Government at a cost of £31,000, yet up to the present time they had merely paid the interest, not a shilling having been paid towards liquidating the principal. He should not make any definite motion, but should reserve to himself the right of doing so on the third reading. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said he was very glad to see his friend take such an interest in the municipality of Wellington, but would assure him that the Corporation of Wellington was quite capable of looking aftwits own affairs, and would not involve the city in financial difficulties. The fact was, this transaction had been entered into by the Coiporation of Wellington and the Provincial Government of Wellington quite deliberately, and each party believed it was doing a good thing for itself. The Provincial Government of Wellington had been invested with certain lands known as the reclaimed lands, and a portion of these were given for recreation purposes, and other land as reclaimed had been sold. Some had been given to the Corporation, which it had itself reclaimed. The Provincial Government also proceeded to reclaim the land in question, which the Corporation sought to obtain au interest in. The Provincial Government had agreed to sell it, and the Parliament was now asked to give the necessary authority for such an arrangement being carried out. He submitted that where it was shown no interests would suffer the Council had no right to veto such arrangements as this. The Corporation had upon three different occasions agreed as to the advisableness of the transaction. He would also call the attention of the Council to the fact that this Bill was not a compulsory measure, but merely permissive. If the Council at a subsequent period found that it was not desirable to enter into the bargain it could withdraw. The positions of the parties would be in no way affected, but power to conclude the bargain given if the parties saw fit to do so. He should like members to refer to the evidence taken, for they would see that Mr. Travers had said that there was no person or authority who could possibly he affected who had not been consulted and had not approved of the arrangement. The Corporation anticipated it would realise a large amount by the transaction, and the Provincial Government was dealing liberally with the Corporation, because the land was to be used for the benefit of the port. Under these circumstances lie thought opposition was out of place. Bird. L. C. RICHARDSON said the Provincial Government of Otago had obtained grants of reclaimed land, and having improved it for years, then sold and recouped themselves the money spent. It seemed that Wellington was following the same course. The Hon. Mr. HART said some time ago the Superintendent of Wellington had advertised a large quantity of unreclaimed laud for sale, and many people thought this was not the proper -way to dispose of the land which had been granted for special purposes, and the Council felt hound to prevent the land going into the hands of private speculators. To this extent only had the Council entered into the transaction willingly. The Hon. Mr. TAYLOR thought if the Council passed this Bill it would be sanctioning the making away with a harbor reserve which was granted for the purpose of providing harbors. The province should not he allowed to do this. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE pointed out that the Corporation of Wellington was in reality the Harbor Board of Wellington, and said the transaction would add to the Corporation revenue. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY commented on the fact that the Provincial Government had offered the laud unreclaimed, aud therefore had attempted to sell the land at a disadvantage. Under these circumstances the Council had stepped in. He thought the arrangement should not be allowed. If there was profit to he gained the Provincial Government should have it, aud use it for reducing their debt; and besides this, he thought harbors should not he under the control of the wharves. He believed that the Government would shortly resume possession of the wharves.
The Hon. Dr. MENZIES considered that the harbor reserves having been granted for harbor purposes should he applied to harbor purposes only, aud not diverted into other channels. He thought a harbor trust should he formed, and the proceeds of the sale, if agreed to, should he handed over to that body and not to the Corporation, who, instead of applying it to harbor purposes, would apply it to ordinary Corporation purposes. He suggested amendment in the Bill to effect this object. In Otago the Provincial Government had improved the land, and had, therefore, become entitled to the profit, but hero it was sold before improved, or even reclaimed. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again next day. The Council adjourned at 5 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, September S. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. PETITIONS. A petition from the ratepayers of Auckland was presented by Mr. Sheehan. NOTICES OF MOTION. A number of notices of motion were given. Mr. SHEEHAN would move ou Wednesday next, —“That the report of the Waste Lands Committee be taken into consideration.” Mr. IN [AC ANDREW gave notice that he would move for the production of Despatch No. 5, dated August 5, from the AgentGeneral. questions. In answer to Mr. G. B. Parker, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON replied that the construction of the branch line to Waimate would be completed so soon as the main lino should be in a sufficiently advanced state to admit of the conveyance of material for the work. In reply to Mr. Carrington, The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said that there was no immediate necessity for the construction of telegraph between New Plymouth and Waitara ; the work would be undertaken, in all probability, when the railway was in working order. DU. BULLEK ANI) THE AGENT-GENEIIAL. Mr. CURTIS asked the Government if they would lay before the House a copy of a letter addressed to the Colonial Secretary by the Agent-General, on the lltli July; 1573, relative to the case of Dr. Duller, and also of the enclosure therein, being a letter addressed by Dr. Duller to the Agent-General, on the Sth July, 1573. Sir DONALD McLEAX replied that the papers had already been placed on the table, and that the Government had no objection to their being printed. In reply to Mr. O’Conor, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said that tenders for the continuance and completion of the Mount Rochfort coal railway and harbor works would be called for in about three weeks. In reply to Mr. T. Kelly, as to when tenders would be called for the construction of a section of the Waitara-Wanganui railway, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said some delay had occurred in letting the first contract, owing to some details in the specifications being wanted, but that information being supplied, tiie work would be commenced in about three or four weeks. TAIIII'A INVESTIGATION. Sir GEORGE GREY moved, without having previously given notice, that four weeks’ additional time be allowed the Tairua Investigation Committee to bring up their report. Carried. BANKRUPTCY HILL. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD introduced a Bill to amend the Bankruptcy Act. It was read a first time, and the second reading made au order of the day for Wednesday next. coroners. Mr. BRADSHAW moved that in the opinion of this House medical practitioners in active practice ought not to hold the office of coroner. It often happened that these men were attending to the dead when they should be attending to the living. Ho knew of several eases where fatal results had followed from the fact. Sir DONALD McLEAX expressed the concurrence of the Government in the views set f< irtli by the mover. Mr. KELLY considered that Resident Magistrates should hold office as coroners, inasmuch as they were best qualified to institute coroner’s inquiries. Mr. SHEEHAN pointed out that in Auckland every death that took place in the asylum resulted in great expense. In the procedure of inquiry an utter waste of money was entailed at the Government expense. He thought they should be careful how the Resident Magistrates were burdened with the duties now performed by others. Mr. O’RORKE spoke against the motion. He looked upon it as casting a slur upon those members of the medical profession who acted as coroners. In replying, Mr. Bradshaw hoped the Government would ho guided by their own wishes in the matter. He took this step ou public grounds, and was not actuated by any private grievance. The motion was then put, and carried on the voices. THE GRAVES OE HEROES. Mr. WILLIAMS moved that this House should next day resolve itself into a committee of the whole, to consider of presenting an address to his Excellency the Governor, praying him to cause to he placed on the Supplementary Estimates a sum of money sufficient to defray the expense of putting in decent order the graves of the officers and men who fell during the wars with the natives. Mr. T. KELLY thought the motion ought to go further —that was, the graves of natives who fell in fair fight should also be cared for. Sir DONALD McLEAN had great pleasure i in expressing the willingness of the Govern-
ment to place a sufficient sum of money on the Estimates for the purpose. He also testified to the friendliness of the Ngapui tribe. Sir GEORGE GIIEY was delighted to hear the course the Government intended to pursue. Largo tracts of confiscated lands had been taken with the assistance of the troops, Imperial and colonial, and he thought some great Orphanage should have been established out of the funds realised by those lands, and of which the troops and the natives who assisted them should be considered the founders. Mr. KATENE addressed the House on the subject. He supported the motion, and favored the idea of the member for City West with respect to establishing an institution for the widows and orphaus of those troops who fell during the war. Mr. Wi Pakata supported the motion ; also Mr. Header Wood. Mr. WILLIAMS, in consideration of what had fallen from the Government, 'withdrew the motion. PRODUCTION OF CORRESPONDENCE. On the motion of Mr. Sheehan it was agreed that copies of all correspondence between J. Sheehan and the Secretary for Crown Lauds, having reference to sale and disposal of waste lands in the province of Hawke’s Bay, lie laid on the table. REPRESENTATION. Mr. MURRAY moved that in the opinion of this House the Bill to be introduced for the readjustment of the representation of the colony should be based upon the following general principles That electoral districts having a less European population than 2000 should, unless such districts comprise an area of 1000 square miles, and also contain an European population of 1500, be merged into other electoral districts ; estimate of population to be based on the census returns. Mr. Murray quoted figures to show that the distribution as at present was most unequal, and then compared the representation of Yew Zealand with that of the other colonies and the United Kingdom. His proposal was that the smaller districts, which had undue representation, should be merged into the general representation of the colony, and they could then be redivided.
Sir DONALD AIcLEAN would ask the lion, gentleman to withdraw the motion. The Government proposed to bring down a Bill bearing on the question, and that, he apprehended, would be the proper time for the discussion to take place.
Sir GEORGE GREY thought the present uas a fitting opportunity for the Government stating when the Representation Bill would be brought down. He looked upon it as indelicate that the Bill should be withheld at such a critical moment. He had heard it stated that certain gentlemen were aware of the intentions of the Government respecting the representation of the colony—-that, in fact, one gentleman was acting on that knowledge to secure his return to a certain district. In speaking to the main question, he pointed out that the Government and their supporters represented the minority of the people ; for instance, in Mr. Stafford’s district there were only 1200 people, whilst in the Thames there were 12,000. Therefore, it would seem that the Thames should have ten members instead of one.
.Mr. REEVES endorsed the statement of ‘"'b' George with respect to certain persons being in the confidence of the Government as to the provisions of the Representation Bill. A well-known supporter of the Government, and a resident in Wellington, was at the present time canvassing a district which was unt.au electoral district at the present time. (Cries of “Xame. ) The gentleman’s name \\ a.-- Moorhouse, and he was evidently aware, from, information supplied to him, that the district was to lie created an electoral district under the new Act.
Mr. W. KELLY corrected the last speaker. Mr. .Moorhouse had not been canvassing a district not yet created, but would no doubt fiml many supporters in one part of the East Coast should the electoral district he divided. Mu REID said it was perfectly evident, from the statement of the member for East Coast, that information respecting the iutentinns of the Government had in some way leaked out. This, he contended, was unfair”; the House should be the first to receive such information. He considered the lion, member for Bruce deserved thanks for the action he had taken. The question of representation was not one to be trifled with, and he considered there should be no longer delay in la \mg before the House the measures which the Government proposed to introduce. He Imped the House would affirm the principle of the motion. made by the lion, member for Bruce. If it were put to the vote, it should receive his support. Messrs. McGlashan and G. McLean having spoken, Mr. SHEEHAN pointed out that the Representation Bill should have been brought down before the Abolition Bill was introduced, because after the latter was disposed of the members would not be able to give the subject the consideration it deserved. As to the necessity of the change, he compared the I names district and the province of Taranaki, to show that whilst the latter was comparatively insignificant as regards its produce and business, it yet had three votes to the one possessed by the Thames. Mr. MAY pointed out sundry districts 'Much had more than tlicir share of representation. Many districts in the North had lar-rn areas, but he took it that population should be the basis of representation. Mr. O CONOR said he would bo glad to sec. the Government place before the' House their proposal with respect to representatives. J t was very desirable that the matter should a piopcrly taken into consideration by the present Parliament.
ibe Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped the motion would be withdrawn. The Governmeut wore fully alive to the importance of the • i >jcc , but tlicir action witli respect to the Representation Bill would entirely depend on the progress made with public business.
Mr. STOUT asked whether the Government would give a return of the returning-officers and of the electoral rolls. He also suggested that the Government should adopt Hare’s system of representation.
The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that the Government would uot only lay on the table a list of the electoral rolls, but would also give a return of the population of the cokmy up to the latest period. Mr. MURRAY withdrew his motion. PETITION OF 11. R. HUSSERL. Mr. CURTIS moved that this House should next (this) day resolve itself into committee of the whole to consider of presenting a respectful address to his Excellency the Governor, praying that he will recommend to the House to make provision for the sum of £61(3135. 4d., to carry out the recommendation of the select committee on waste lands, in the matter of the petition of Henry Robert Russell. The debate which arose on this question was adjourned for a week. MR. THOMAS RUSSELL AND THE GOVERNMENT. Sir GEORGE GREY moved for all correspondence or memoranda between Mr. T. Russell, as representing the Shortland Sawmill Company, and the Government, relating to the timber licenses held by the company over the Opango and other blocks at the Thames. He stated that a wrongful act had been performed by the Government in favor of a private individual, and he believed through that action many persons had been prevented from acquiring rights. Sir DONALD McLEAX replied that there would he no objection to lay the correspondence on the table. If Sir George Grey supposed that the Government had passed any Act in the interest of one individual he was under some misapprehension. Mr. ROLLESTOX differed from the statement of the Premier. His opinion of the matter, derived from the correspondence, was that a clause had been inserted in the Bill to meet the case of Mr. Russell. ORDERS OF THE DAY. The House went into committee on the Christchurch Drainage Bill, which was considered, reported, and the third reading ordered for Wednesday next. Mr. STOUT spoke against the change giving plurality of votes in proportion to the value of property held by voters, and divided the committee on the question, the result being that Sir George Grey, Mr. George McLean, and Mr. Stout went into one lobby, the rest of the committee into another. The actual numbers were 34 and 3. The Timaru Corporation Waterworks Bill was considered in committee, amended, read a third time, and passed. Mr. SHEEHAN moved the second reading of the Highway Boards Empowering Act Amendment (No. 2) Bill, stating that he would only press that portion of the Bill which provided for an increased power of rating. Mr. ANDREW moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. After a discussion, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. The Westland Tramway Orders Bill, Municipal Corporation Act Amendment Bill, Tauranga Bocal Reserves Bill, Otago District Board of AY orks Bill, and Otago Education Bill were made orders of the day for AVednesday next ; also the Municipal Corporation Loan Bill. The Clyde AVaterworks Bill lapsed. The debate on the second reading of the AVOlington Tollgates Bill was resumed. Mr. McLean objected to the retrospective clause, as did also Messrs. Shephard, Brandon, Pearce, and Andrew (who opposed the Bill in toto). Mr. Hunter and Major Atkinson supported the Bill, which was then read a second time. The second reading of the Telegraph Messages Copyright Bill was moved by Mr. Harrison. The object of the Bill is to protect newspapers from literary piracy.—Air. Reeves thought the Bill unnecessary, and said the Bill should have been entitled a Bill to give the Press Agency a monopoly. The newspaper interest of the colony did not desire it, and he moved the second reading that day six months. —The Hon. Air. Reynolds thought the Bill would he a protection to the Press. —Air. T. L. Shepherd suggested the Bill should be referred to a select committee.—Air. Steward moved the adjournment of the debate.—Air. Stout deprecated the granting of monopolies.—Air, O’Conor opposed the Bill because it provided fora necessity whichhad not arisen and might never arise.—Air. Luckie considered copyright of news impossible.—Air. Ballance supported the principle of copyright, but urged delay. The debate was then adjourned. The Kakanui Harbor Board Bill was passed through committee in all stnges. A long discussion took place in committee on the AVestport Alunicipal Reserves Bill. Eventually, it was reported, with amendments. The Oamaru Town Hall and Gasworks Site Bill was passed through Committee. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Palmerston Waterworks Bill wore agreed to, and At 12.30 the House adjourned. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, September 9. The Hon. the Speaker having taken the chair notices of motion. The Hon. Mr. AVATERHOUSE gave notice of his intention to move for a return of all monies advanced to companies under the Immigration and Public AVorks Act. disqualification. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES moved that it he an instruction to the committee on the Disqualification Act infringement, to communicate from time to time with the committee appointed for the same purpose by the House of Representatives ; and also that a message he sent to the House of Representatives, acquainting them with the action taken by tire Council, -and requesting that a similar action should bo taken by them.
EDUCATION RESERVE AT PORIRUA,
Ihe Hou. Air. NGATATA moved that copies of any documents showing the authority under which a Crown grant was issued to the Bishop of New Zealand for native land at Porirua for educational purposes, he laid upon the table of this Council. He said the trust had not been fulfilled.
The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said the lion, gentleman had a perfect right to ask for the production of: the documents, and there would be no objection to placing them on the table. I. he Hon. Air. STOKES delivered a very long speech, the purport of which was to show that the. spirit of the trust had been fulfilled, though it had uot been carried out to the letter, in consequence of difficulties at first met with. HOSPITAL LOAN ACT. Lhe Hon. Air. AVATERHOUSE moved for leave to introduce a Bill intituled au Act to Amend the Wellington Hospital Loan Act, 1874. Carried. MESSAGE FROM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. lhe Hon. the SPEAKER announced a message from the House of Representatives, that the Timaru Alunicipal Council Loan Bill and Kakanui AVaterworks Bill had been passed. The Bills were read a first time. SOUTHLAND WASTE LANDS BILL. Order of. the day No. 1 was then called on: Consideration of message No. 4 from his Excellency the Governor, transmitting the following proposed amendments in the Southland AVaste Lands Bill :—ln clause 3, to omit all the words of the clause to “unsurveyed,” in line 2, and insert “ whenever the Board shall hereafter receive an application for the purchase of any ”in lieu thereof. In line 7of the same clause to omit “ the land,” and insert “ such land ”in lieu thereof. In line 10 of the same clause after “ shall ” to insert “ after such refusal.” The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved,—“ That the amendments be confirmed by the Council.” BILLS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : —Oamaru AVaterworks Bill, Nelson City Loan Bill, Campbelltown Atlienamm Bill, Plans of Towns Regulation Bill. Taranaki AVaste Lands Bill, to he considered in committee, was made an order of the day for next (this) day. The House then went into committee on the Goldfields Act Amendment Bill (No. 2.) WELLINGTON HARBOR RESERVES SALE BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee of the whole House. The Hon. Air. AVATERHOUSE said a misapprehension existed in the minds of lion, members as to the nature of the Bill. It did not interfere with the appropriations of any lands for specific purposes, nor did it increase the power of the Provincial Government to deal with such lands. The object of the Bill was simply this, to place the Corporation of AVellington in a position to raise the money necessary to purchase those lands from the Provincial Government. It was quite in the interest of the Corporation. The Provincial Government had the same power now with respect to this land as they would have in the event of the Bill being passed. The misapprehension had doubtless arisen out of the title of the Bill, from which it would appear that the laud was a harbor reserve, whereas it had been vested in the Provincial Government for public purposes. ’Lhe Hon. Air. JOHNSON would oppose tbe Bill, because he was strongly of opinion that the property ought to lie hold in trust for harbor purposes only. He would vote against it, in the hope that a portion of the reserve would be so set apart. Lhe Hon. Air. BONAR professed himself still unable to see the question as clearly as he could wish. Ho was still under the impression that the reserve was not being properly dealt with. He would, ask the hou. member to consent to a postponement of the question for a week. The Hon. Air. AVATERHOUSE said the invariable rule was that when measures had received the sanction of the local authorities they should be given effect to, so long as there was no interference with vested interests ; and he saw no reason why the same course should not lie adopted in regard to the present Bill. 1
lhe Hon. Alajor RICHAIOXD was opposed to the Bill. The facts of the case, as it appeared to him, were these : The Superintendent had a certain property in trust, and the Superintendent, or the Provincial Council, having involved the province in difficulties, now proposed to take this property for the purpose of helping the province out of those difficulties. It was sought to obtain the consent of the Supreme Legislature to an Act which should not have been sanctioned in the first instance.
The Hon. A[r. AVATERHOUSE pointed out that the present question was not as to the desirability of their being a harbor board—it was totally distinct from that. The. Hon. Air. PHARAZYN said the Alunicipal Council had made a mistake in their action with regard to this reserve, and many of them now saw that an error had been committed, lhe fact was that the Corporation were alarmed at the idea that the reserve would be sold to the highest bidder, and made the purchase accordingly. Ho believed that if the Bill fell through, some negotiation would take place which would lead to the reserve being devoted to harbor works. An influential member of the Alunicipal Council had stated to him that lie was under the impression that the money paid for the reserve would be devoted to the harbor. In order, therefore, that some arrangements satisfactory to all parties might be brought about, ho would move that the Chairman report progress.
The Hon. Air. AIILLER proposed as an amendment that the words be added—“and ask ifcave to sit again,” in order that it might not be thrown out altogether.
Sir J. L. C. RICHARDSON supported the amendment. He advocated the setting aside of a portion of the reserve for harbor purposes, and had thought some arrangement with that object would be made when the Bill was referred to a select committee.
Eurther discussion ensued pro. and con. Oli the amendment being put, that the Chairman ask leave to sit again and report progress, a division was taken, resulting as follows : —Ayes, 15 ; noes, 11. lhe Hon. Air. AVATERHOUSE said he was desirous of coming to some definite decision, and moved that the debate be resumed to-morrow. To this the Hon. Air. Bonak moved an amendment, that the debate he resumed that day week. A division was taken, and the amendment was carried by 21 to 5. adjournment. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved that the Council do now adjourn till Tuesday next. Carried. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, September 9. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. PETITIONS AND PAPERS. Several petitions and papers were presented. NOTICES OF MOTION. A number of notices of motion were given. PRINTING SUPPLEMENTS FOR PAPERS AT THE GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE. Air. T. L. SHEPHERD brought under tlio notice of the House the printing in the Government Printing Office of speeches by hon. members, on a broad sheet, as a supplement for a newspaper, without bearing an imprint from the Government Printer. Air. Shepherd gave as au instance the Tuupcka Times and Mr. J. C. Brown, also the Bidler News and Air. O'Conor. During his remarks Air. Shepherd was frequently interrupted by Air. O’Conor. Air. STEAVARD, Chairman of the Reporting Debates Committee, said that the circumstances under which the supplements had been printed were that the members paid the cost of printing, and said that the papers in question were of such a petty character that they could not afford to print supplements. The committee had issued instructions on the matter, as would be found by an interim report to he brought up to-morrow. Air. O’CONOR explained his connection with the affair. He got his speech printed to send to his friends and to the different newspapers published in the district he represented. He thought all members should have such opportunities of getting their speeches printed for circulation. Air. J. C. BROAVN also made an explanation. Air. AIACANDREAV thought the conduct of the members who had got their speeches printed was most patriotic. If the Assembly met in Dunedin or Christchurch, the papers there would publish full reports every morning of the speeches in the House, and then members could get wluit they wanted supplied by private enterprise. Air. O’CONOR said that in previous sessions he and the Colonial Treasurer had had their speeches printed in the way described, and he now wished to put a question of privilege, and that was that the member for AVaitaki had that day directed the Government Printer not to print these speeches in the way which was the subject of discussion any more. He moved that it be an instruction to the Government Printer to continue to issue reports of members’ speeches when practicable, on payment of the cost by tlie members whose speeches were printed. The question was then put, whether leave should be granted to Air. O’Conor to put this motion. On this question Mr. Reader AVood addressed himself to the House, and said that lie would he iu favor of taking away from newspapers the right to distort speeches. The Press Agency gave a very fair condensation of the proceedings in the House, but only a condensation. He could not say, however, that the newspapers gave fair reports. Sir Cracroft AVilson, Sir Donald McLean, Alessrs. Curtis, Cuthbertson, Bunny, Atkinson, and Stout, having spoken, Air. O’Conor withdrew’ his motion, on the understanding that the question should he gone into when the interim report of the Reporting Debates Committee should come up to-day. AN EXPLANATION. The Hon. Air. STAFFORD explained in reference to a report in that morning-’s New Zealand Times, that Sir George Grey had, when ho contrasted the population of the Thames Goldfields (12,000) with that of another district (with a population of 1200), not meant his (Mr. Stafford’s) district, in which there were over 2000 in the town of Timaru alone, and 5000 in the district. Sir GEORGE GREY corroborated this. QUESTIONS. In answer to Air. llolleston, the Hon. Alajor Atkinson said that as far as the Government were at present informed it was Sir Julius Vogel’s intention to leave England for the colony during the present month. In answer to Air. J. O. Brown, the Hon. Air. Richardson said that the delay in opening the first section of the Tuapeka line had arisen from waiting until the Clutha line was open, so as to convey the necessary material ; that line was now open, and the work would he proceeded with as soon as possible. In answer to Air. Atacandrew, the Hon. Alajor Atkinson said the Government had no copy of despatch No. 5 of the 10th January, 1875, from the Agent-General. In answer to Air. \V. Kelly, Sir Donald AlcLean said the Government had no report of committee in the case of Edmund and Denis Foley, but would lie glad to listen to any representation on the subject. THE ABOLITION BILL. The House then went into committee on the Abolition of Provinces Bill. Air. ROLLESTON asked if the rumor in the lobbies was true that Government would
l.c content to take the first four clauses of the measure, and abandon the rest of the Hill.
Sir DONALD McLEAN said Mr. Holieston had better not listen to what was said in the lobbies, as he had a habit of doing. It was the intention of the (government to go on with the Hill without any deviation from the course they had resolved oil. Mr. EOLLESTON said he was satisfied it was not then the intention of the Government to be content with a portion of the Hill ; they would be satisfied with nothing less than the whole Hill.
On the first clause being put, Mr. Sheehan' moved that progress be reported. Mr.ROLLESTON said the title, “Abolition of Provinces” was a wrong one ; the Hill in reality perpetuated the worst forms of provincialism. He replied to what Mr. Reynolds had said on a previous occasion about not letting the Hill go to the constituencies and having to watch the Superintendents. Mr. J HUNAN expressed a wish that each clause of the Bill should be read in its entirety, and not as usual the side notes. His reason was that he had been asked by no mean portion of the district he represented to oppose the passing of the Bill line by line, and lie intended to do this.
Mr. O’EOEKE said any member had a right to demand that each clause should be read in full, and Mr. Dignan having made a demand to that effect, each clause should be read in its entirety as it came up for consideration.
Mr. SHEEHAN commented on the position of Mr. Reynolds, and said he had not the confidence of his colleagues. Mr. WHITE called attention to the state of the House. The CHAIRMAN ruled that there was a quorum. Mr. SHEEHAN continued, and said the Government had persistently disregarded the voice of the people, for although there had been a genuine expression throughout the length and breadth of the colony, the Government had taken no notice of it. The result of the Wellington, Auckland, and Dunedin meetings alone should have induced the Ministry to stay their hand, but 1150,000 of the 200,000 peoplo who had assembled in meeting had decided against legislation during the present session. He then proceeded to speak on different subjects till S o’clock. Mr. FITZHERBERT said he did not propose to exhaust himself by raising his voice to any extraordinary pitch, although if he could be heard he would he the better pleased. He spoke on various subjects till five minutes to ten o’clock, when the adjournment was taken. At twenty minutes past ten he resumed his speech, and spoke for an hour.
Mr. MONTGOMERY next addressed the House, and suggested as a compromise that the Bill should not be proceeded with until after the general election, and that in the meantime no Ordinances passed by the Provincial Council should become law until approved of by the Government ; or in case this was not accepted, lie would suggest that all clauses up to clause 4 should be postponed. He was speaking entirely from his own point of view, and not on behalf of the Opposition. Mr. WILLI AMS could see no reason why •clause 2 should not be struck out, providing “ when” the Bill should come into operation. Sir DONALD McLEAN said the present position was that the Government had not been able to proceed with any one clause owing to factious opposition, and the Government would not therefore be prepared to discuss the suggestion of Mr. Montgomery until the clause he mentioned was come to.
Mr. GIBBS asked the gentlemen of the Opposition to go into the business thoroughly, as the member for Taieri had said, to make it acceptable, and if it was not acceptable after passing through committee, he (the speaker) would join the Opposition and oppose it.
Mr. O’NEILL read a letter from the Thames, urging cn the Government the necessity -of passing the Abolition Bill without delay. He also read a letter from Coromandel, approving of the principle of the Bill, but suggesting the necessity for delay until after the general election. Mr. SWANSON spoke at considerable length. He was willing to make any reasonable concession, and denied that the Opposition had been factious. Mr. Swanson ceased speaking at 12 o’clock, saying that his time was up. Mr. WOOD said the Opposition were prepared to go on speaking, in relays, till they had attained ’ their object. He for one would be found at his post again at eight o’clock next morning. The squads would not particularly hurt themselves, would not die on the floor of the House, but would take it easily, and if need be lull the Government to
sleep. Both parties having resolved to sit it out, our reporter left the House sitting at 2 a.m.
Permanent link to this item
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZMAIL18750911.2.32
Bibliographic details
New Zealand Mail, Issue 209, 11 September 1875, Page 17
Word Count
20,671Parliament. New Zealand Mail, Issue 209, 11 September 1875, Page 17
Using This Item
No known copyright (New Zealand)
To the best of the National Library of New Zealand’s knowledge, under New Zealand law, there is no copyright in this item in New Zealand.
You can copy this item, share it, and post it on a blog or website. It can be modified, remixed and built upon. It can be used commercially. If reproducing this item, it is helpful to include the source.
For further information please refer to the Copyright guide.
Log in