PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 38, 14 October 1871, Page 4

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, October 6. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’olock. PETITION OP WAIKATO OPPIOERB • The motion of Captain M'Pherson with reference to the petition of several Waikato officers, erroneously reported in our yesterday’s issue as having been agreed to, was, on the motion of the hon member, referred back to the Public Petitions Committee. ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. Mr WAKEFIELD asked the Colonial Secretary whether there exists any map of New Zealand as a whole, divided into electoral districts for the election of members of this House ; and if not, whether the Government is willing to give directions for the construction of such a map, to be bung in the Library, or some other conspicuous place in this building ? ' ~ , . , , Mr GISBORNE said he did not think there was any such map at present in existence, though he thought one might be easily obtained. At present there were errors in many of the electoral districts, but as soon as they were rectified they would be correctly described on a map which would bo hung up as desired. THE CONSTITUTION ACT. Mr CURTIS asked the Colonial Secretary when he will be prepared to introduce a bill to remedy the alleged flaw in the Constitution Act, which formed the ground of tbe decision of the Supreme Court of Appeal in the case of Bagge v Sinclair, and which bas, since that decision was given, prevented Provincial Coun cils from exercising the legislative powers bestowed upon them by the Constitution Act ? Mr GISBORNE, whose answer was very indistinctly heard, was understood to say that a bill would be prepared and brought down. TE KOOTI. Mr CREIGHTON asked whether the Government had any information as to the contents of a telegram dated Tauranga, October 6, to the effect that Te Kooti had been reinforced by a number of Waikatos. Mr M'LEAN said the information, as far as he could ascertain, was a mere rumor. A trace of Te Kooti, two days old, had been discovered by Captain Preece and the Arawas a long way from the Uriwera country and Taupo. The rumor referred to by the hon member had also been received in Wellington, but he was certain that there was no foundation for the rumor of the adhesion of the Waikatos to Te Kooti. TRANSLATION OE BILLS. TAIAROA moved that all bills introduced into this House 01 parts therein affecting the natives may bo translated into the Maori language, and be referred to the committee on native affairs, before disoussion takes place on them. The motion was taken out of turn, as an " unopposed” one, but after a considerable amount of opposition, a discussion was called for, tbe result being —Ayes, 41; Noes, 15. PAPERS. Mr Gisborne presented, by command, a number of papers. TREASURY BILLS. The House went into committee to consider of giving leave to introduce a bill intituled An Act to provide for a deficiency of ninety thousand pounds by the issue of Treasury Bills repayable over the two next financial years. The committee having given leave, the consideration of the report was ordered for next sitting day. THE GOVERNMENT BILLS. Mr YOGEL, before going into Committee of Supply, made to the House, according to promise, a preliminary sketch of the bills on which the Government proposed to found the changes to be effected by the proposals to which he had referred in his financial statement. In doing so he said I will very briefly describe such of the leading features of the bills we propose to bring down as may be calculated to place hon members in possession of the nature of those bills. But I must premise that I take this course not because I at all believe that it is incumbent on the Government to make such a preliminary statement, and not because I am unaware that the practice would be exceedingly inconvenient. But I recognise that this session we have to deal with unusual circumstances. We are admittedly bringing down the business less leisurely than we desire; and we are anxious to take the House into our confidence to the fullest extent. On the other hand, seeing that I am about to give these particulars before the several bills are fully prepared, and that, as honorable members are perfectly aware, when once a bill has been prepared it is necessarily subjected to many nice considerations, honorable members must not complain if the statement I shall now make is found, when compared with the bills as submitted to the House, to be more or less inaccurate. In short, I wish hon members to understand that my statement will be made with the view of throwing some light upon the measures we propose to bring down; but that I will not undertake to say that before the measures are introduced some alterations may not be made. With these preliminary remarks, I will first refer to The bill respecting the government of the Provinces. The leading features of this measure are these : —lt enables a Superintendent to sit in the Council of his province. After the next general election for Provincial Councils, except in the Provinces of Hawke’s Bay, Marlborough, and Taranaki, it will reduce the number of members in each province to the same number of members as represent the province in this House; the districts being the same as for the election of members of this House, and the same number of members being returned for each district. The bill will give power to order a fresh election for Superintendent without the necessity of

dissolving the Council: or to enable the Council to be dissolved without rendering necessary a fresh election for Superintendent. I am not able to say whether we shall in this bill deal with the case of the Grey District, or shall deal with it separately. But the intention of the Government is to propose that that district shall be added to the Nelson Province,; but that some special provision shall be made for establishing road boards within the whole of the goldfields of the Nelson Province, and for otherwise dealing to some extent with the local revenue. The Bill to transfer to the Governor, in certain events, the powers conferred on Superintendents, is a measure by which we propose to enable the Governor, under certain circumstances, at the request of the Superintendent and Provincial Council, to take over the whole administration of a province. The bill to repeal the Payments to Provinces Act, 1870, will, as far as I am aware, be a faithful transcript of the proposals with respect to payments to provinces which are set forth in the financial statement.

The next bill, to provide for a deficiency of £90,000 by the issue of Treasury Bills repayable over the next two financial years, will also be a measure to carry into effect proposals which were stated with sufficient clearness in the financial statement.

A Bill to Amend the Public Revenues Act is a measure to extend tbe issue of deficiency bills to £IOO,OOO, as described in the financial statement. The Public Trust Office Bill I need not particularly refer to, as it has no special relation to the financial statement. It is the reintroduction of a similar bill to that which was passed through the House last session, but which was subsequently thrown out in the other House. I will touch upon some other points with which we propose to deal, and which will more or less affect the finance of the provinces. PUBLIC WORKS PUND. Carrying out the proposal made in the financial statement, we shall propose to provide that there shall be a public, works fund, out of which all expenditure on account of public works and immigration, authorised by law, shall be defrayed ; and into which all receipts on account of public works and immigration shall be paid. One half of the revenue collected as stamp duties to be paid into the fund. BOARD OP WORKS. The board to consist of President and five members, to be nominated by the Governor ; and of the Minister of Public Works ; the Chief Engineer, and the second Engineer, who are to be members ex officio. Three of the nominated members to retire annually, but to be eligible for re-nomination. Disqualification act not to apply to the nominated members or to the President. The board to have the entire charge of public works, subject to the directions of the Minister of Public Works. The board to report to the Assembly, annually, as to the whole of its operations ; also, to report how and to what extent, if at all, its recommendations have been over ridden by the Minister ; what railway or railways, if any, it recommends for construction; what railways have been applied for, and which of them, if any, it does not recommend ; the grounds of recommendation or non-recom-mendation to be stated in each case. The bill will contain other provisions, enabling sub-boards to be formed in different parts of the colony ; and also for the formation of a board to take charge, under the direction of the chief board of works upon the gold fields. IMMIGRATION. We shall submit provisions by which the cost of immigration will be defrayed out of the Loan ; the provinces to be relieved from charge, and all recoveries from immigrants to be paid into the public works and immigration fund. We shall provide that, in any province within which land has been taken for the construction of railways, such land shall be available for the settlement of immigrants. In provinces where no railways are being constructed, or where no land for the construction of railways has been obtained, the Government, on the recommendation of the Board of Works, shall be at liberty to take land. The upset price of such land, less any compensation payable to the pastoral holder or holders, to be paid to the province in cash, if the colony is not liable for an equivalent amount of provincial loan. When the provincial loan has been consolidated, an equivalent amount to be taken off the loan liability of the province, and added to the colonial liability. Provisions will be made for classifying land and for disposing of it. DEEDS. We propose to make provision to render it more easy to obtain the consent of persons interested, to railways being taken through their lands. We shall also ask the House to deal with the subject of compensation for land taken for railways. Where the Board of Works and a landowner fail to agree as to the compensation to be paid, we propose that some one appointed by the Governor shall hold a court, and be aided by two assessors appointed by a judge of the Supreme Court: the court to receive evidence, and the compensation to be fixed without right of appeal. Further, we shall propose that it shall be competent for the Court to refuse to give any compensation, if it be made to appear that the railway will add to the value of a property to an amount more than sufficient to cover the loss consequent upon the taking of so much land as is necessary for the construction of the line. We shall ask the House to agree that the Court shall have power to require the claimant to pay the costs of the Court if it appear that he has been unwilling, without reference to

the Court, to accept reasonable compensation offered by the Board of Works. The Government will seek power for carrying out all the proposals contained in the public works statement with respect to providing for the construction of main railways ; railways to open up coalfields; and branch or feeder lines. Before constructing a main line, the Government to decide whether its cost shall be charged against the land revenue of the province, or land shall be taken to cover charges. In the former case, when the line is finished, the interest, if any, or the guarantee, if any, paid during construction, to be capitalized, and a determination to be come to of the yearly charge the railway involves. The province to be held liable for such yearly charge, together with any additions that may accrue. From such charge, to be deducted, the revenue in excess of expenditure derived from the railway, and the portion of the stamp duties paid to the public works fund which the board estimates may fairly pass in reduction of the yearly charge ; and credit to be given to the province concerned, for its share of the Middle Island railway fund. In case the amount is not recoverable from the province—and if, in the opinion of the Assembly, such a course is desirable—a rate to be levied by the board on the owners and occupiers of property bene: fited by the railway. Where land is taken for a railway, the board, if necessary, to demand from time to time that a larger quantity shall be given, if it appear that the value of so much as has been taken is insufficient to meet the charges to which the Public Works Fuud will be subjected on account of tbe railway, after deducting the allowance, if any, from the Stamp Duties. Or any such deficiency may be met by a special rate or by charge against the province, or partly by land being taken, partly by special rate, and partly by charge against the province ; or by any two of those plans. We propose to return to the province any surplus receipts.

We shall propose that the yearly charges for railways to develop coal mines shall be charged wholly or in part against the mines ; and in order to secure the development of such mines, we shall ask the House to agree that, should the mines not yield sufficient to defray the annual charge, a period of four years may be allowed to elapse before any steps are taken to recover locally the amount of the annual payments.

Another proposal will be that the Board of Works shall be at liberty to consider applications for special aid for the development of coal mines. We shall make it a condition that tbe best scientific opinion shall be taken ; and if, after investigation, the board is satisfied that the amount asked for may be beneficially expended, and that the expenditure will lead to the permanent development of mines from which coal may be supplied at rates profitable to the sapplier, and suitable to the purposes of consumers, the board may recommend to the Government to authorise advances for the purpose or purposes specified. On such recommendation the Government to be at liberty to make advances, taking such security as, in the opinion of the board, is sufficient for repayment. The money advanced to be expended by the board strictly for the purposes for which the advance is made. BRANCH RAILWAYS. In respect to branch railways we propose that whenever a number of residents, occupiers, or owners of land in any district contiguous to a main railway are of opinion that the construction of a branch railway through such district will be for their advantage, they shall be at liberty to ask the Board of Works to declare that such district is one contiguous to a main line of railway constructed or in course of construction, and fitted to be considered a district through which it would be competent to construct a branch railway’; and if so fitted, the board shall define the boundaries of the district, or of a district or districts which, together or separately, may be eligible for the construction of a branch railway or railways. The board to cause to be prepared, at the expense of the applicants, a list showiug the extent and the value of land, and the names of occupiers and owners within the district. If a petition be presented to the board from a number of occupiers and owners of land, requesting the construction of a branch railway, the board —after satisfying itself that such petition represents a majority of the resident occupiers and owners within the district, and of more than a moiety of the value of the land within it, may signify that it will recommend to the Govemmenttlie construction of such railway. In makingthat recommendation, the board shall state the terms of construction it advises. But those terms shall include and provide for a local liability by means of an annual rate, sufficient to cover at least one-half of the annual charge for such railway, or, at the discretion of the board, the proportion of the annual charge so to be covered may be fixed at five-sevenths. The Governor may order the construction of the railway, on the terms recommended ; but the rate not to commence until the railway has been completed. Provision will be made for striking the rate. Mr Yogel, in conclusion, said there was no truth in the statement that the Government desired to conceal from the House the nature of the business which they would have to bring before them before the end of the session. His health rendered it impossible that he could be in the House during the evening sitting, and if the House desired to go on with the financial discussion he would be prepared go on with it then, although he knew it was inconvenient that it should be gone on with at that time. He would accede to whatever plan would be most convenient to hon members. Mr TRIBE wished to know when the Colonial Treasurer would be prepared to bring down the measures affecting the county of West-

land. He must say the little arrangement astonished him.

Mr YOGEL said that it would be one of the earliest. It would be brought down early next week.

Mr STAFFORD did not think the Colonial Treasurer need have apologised for the statement he had made, or have suggested that it should not form a precedent, for if the hon member, had followed the usual Parliamentary precedents, he should have made the statement when he asked leave to introduce the bills to which it related. Had the hon. gentleman made the statement then the House would have been prepared to discuss the principles embodied in those bills that day, but as it was it would be quite impossible to expect that the House would be prepared to enter into the discussion of those four measures. At the same time, he must say that the statement made was of a very interesting character, and the House would be very eager to see it in print] in order to be able, at as early a day as possible, to discuss tbe questions which it involved. Tuesday next would, he thought, be a sufficiently early day to discuss the question, because, as the Colonial Treasurer had stated that he would not be able to be present daring the evening sitting, he hardly thought it would be advisable to discuss the question in his absence, as, if they did so, they’would have to discusß it over again when the hon gentleman was present, so that no really useful result would accrue from the discussion taking place before Tuesday nest. The matter was very interesting indeed as affecting the provinces. It had been suggested that an arrangement bad been come to between-some of the Nelson members and the member for. the Grey Yalley. He hardly thought some of tbe Nelson members were prepared for that announcement. Tbe hon gentleman had also stated that he intended to relieve the provinces from the administration of the goldfields and their revenue; a very pleasant term, which simply meant that the provinces were to cease to be provinces in the proper acceptation of the word. He did not quite understand whether the Government proposed to take the general debate first or to continue the consideration of the estimates. He would take the opportunity of stating to the hon gentleman that he and those who acted with him were prepared strongly to object to the Sau Francisco service. As it had been stated by the Colonial Secretary on the previous day that a definite day would be fixed for the discussion of the resolution tor tbe settlement of that matter, he would suggest to the Government that it would be unwise to enter upon the consideration of the estimates for the postal service until after the House had expressed its opinion on the San Francisco service.

Mr YOGEL would be willing to postpone the discussion cm the statement until Tuesday, and also, to postpone the discussion of the vote for the San Francisco service until that resolution was brought down. He hoped hon members would not understand that the resolution to be brought down in any way countenanced repudiation of the agreement with the colony. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY.' On the Chairman reading out the vote of £5,543 163 for the printing department, Mr HARRISON said sufficient evidence had been brought before the Reporting Debates Committee to show that the office waj in a complete state of disorganisation. He was not prepared to say where the fault lay ; whether it was caused by the workmen or whether it was caused by the incompetency of the head of the department, but certain it was that a very strong feeling of discontent existed in the office. In investigations which had been recently made,the committee had been assured over and over again that the extreme expense of the department was due to the circumstances to which he had alluded ; that the great expense was not incurred in the printing of the work itself but was caused by the disorganisation of the department, and want of management. Mr Gisborne agreed that the whole matter deserved inquiry, and he hoped some hon member would move that an inquiry should take place into the management of the department. Mr M'Leod said there must be something very wroDg in the working of the establishment, although he did not see how to probe the matter. There was one strange point connected with the matter, and that was, that the lowest employe in the establishment was in the habit of holding communication with the members of the House. From long experience among workmen he found, as a rule, that they seldom complained, all in the same direction, unless there was something wrong with the management. He also knew by experience that in nine cases out of ten growling was caused by some bad management, and that the manager was to blame for the dissatisfaction. There was no doubt that the establishment was too cramped, and that the appliances and the material were not adequate to turning out the work required. It only convinced him that the whole department should be thrown open to competition. There was now a unanimous opinion that fifty per cent more than was necessary was being expended in the printing office. Mr Mervyn also spoke on the motion. Mr Creighton said the Reporting Debates Committee had had evidence brought before them of the extravagance and mismanagement of the office. There was another extraordinary fact connected with the estimates for this department. No matter how much work was done, or how little, the estimates from year to year were the same to a farthing; they ne'ver varied. He thought the calculations displayed a wonderful, a miraculous, amount of ability. He hoped when the examination did take place that the evidence would be taken on oath, and that it would not be a mere sham. He could assure the Government that unless this were done there would be great difficulty in getting at the root of the matter of which so much complaint had been made. On the under-

standing that the inquiry should be made, the vote was passed without reduction. On the vote for the geological department, £2900, a lengthened discussion ensued, which was enlivened very much by Mr Creighton’s allusion to the £3OO paid to Mr Walter Buller for the 300 “ sparrow skins ” deposited in the museum, which, by the way, he had spent a day or two in endeavoring to find, but could not. Mr Swanson made some, amusing remarks about Mr Hector’s prognostications as to the existence of gold at the Thames. If they had taken the advice of that gentleman and had been “very careful to keep their money in their pockets and not spend it in searching for gold at the Thames,” why, of course, they would have had none of those prosperous times which they had recently experienced in Auckland. Mr Gillies defended Dr. Hector’s reputation, stating, with reference to that gentleman’s opinion as to the geology of the Thames, that Mr Swanson had not put the case fairly. What Dr. Hector did say was, that if gold were discovered at the Thames it would be contrary to all scientific teaching, and this was the opinion of many other eminent geologists, Dr. Hochstetter for instance. The disparagement of Messrs. Swanson and Creighton brought up the “ intellectuals.” Mr Dillon Bell defended the vote on the ground that our scientific institutions should be encouraged by every means. The papers of the New Zealand Institute had excited considerable attention amongst learned men in all parts of Europe. Mr Bell related an anecdote on this head, which was certainly not much to the point and consisted in the fact that when he and the Duke of Argyle were together at a scientific dinner in England, the Duke made some inquiry about the botanical names of New Zealand trees, which he (Mr Bell) could not answer. The vote passed without reduction. The vote of £2,500 for the expenses of the introduction of the Education Act was passed, Mr Fox intimating that if the Act were not passed of course the vote would not be required. On the vote for Resident Magistrates the “birds” came up again, Mr Buipr? strenuously objecting to the payment of only £2OO to Majoi Edwards for filling the office of Resident Magistrate at Wanganui, while Mr Buller was receiving £6OO as a year’s salary for the performance of the same duties. He gave notice that; if Major Edward’s salary were not increased he would move that an address be presented to His Excellency for the purpose of increasing it. Mr M'Lean intimated that the Government would support such a motion. Wl Pabata made some observations on the matter of Mr Buller’s visit to England. He thought Major Edward’s salary should be increase?, and that he should be retained in the office. The natives had no very favorable recollections of Mr Buller, on account of his bungling at Stangitikei. There was only one reason why they would desire to see him come back, and that was that he had promised the natives £I,OOO, a promise which he had never fulfilled. If he would come back and pay that money then he might go back to England and stay there altogether. As to the Resident Magistrate at Lyttelton it w»8 generally agreed that the item should continue for one year longer, when the salary for the office shouldbe struck out altogether, the duties to be performed by the Resident Magistrate of Christchurch. Mr Rolleston and Mr Brandon very forcibly reminded the Government of their inconsistency in the two votes —those for the Resident Magistrate at Lyttelton and at Wanganui. To the votes for the extra clerk, £2OO, and assistant bailiff, £IBO, for the Resident Magistrate’s Court, Hokitika, Mr Harrison took exception, stating that there was not work for more than one clerk in the Court. Mr White disputed many facts adduced by Mr Harrison, pointing out the fallacy of such statements as that the population of Hokitika three or four years ago was threefold or fourfold what it is at present; and that he could live quite as cheaply at Hokitika as he could in Wellington. Mr White disputed these arguments, stating that as to the population he had the census to assist him against the assertions of the hon member for Grey Valley, while as to the cost of living, the statements on that matter were equally erroneous, as must be known to those who had lived in both places. Mr Harrison afterwards withdrew an amendment which he made, that the salaries be reduced by one half, on the assurance of the Colonial Secretary that the matter should be attended to during the recess. When the postal votes were reached, that for the San Francisco service was passed over, and on coming to the votes for the provincial charges, Mr Fitzherbert said the Government should reconsider the matter. He argued that it was contrary to the policy of the financial statement. His speech was a very forcible one, in which he stated that he hoped the Government would consider and give weight to the reasons he had adduced, and that they would not burden the provinces by the retention of charges contrary to the principle they had promulgated—that the provinces were overburdened. He considered the burden under this head, £24,200, could, according to the principle laid down by themselves, be better borne by the colony than by the provinces, and he hoped they would abolish the hideous financial viciousness of the system of provincial charging. They were taking absolutely the revenue of other Houses of Representatives and distributing it for them. They were taking away one of the proper functions of the Provincial Governments ; spending other people’s money, and leaving them to find the funds. Mr Harrison, Mr Johnston, Mr Rolleston (who considered the leaving of this single item as a provincial charge to be the one blot upon the statement of the Colonial Treasurer), Mr Macandrew, Mr Kelly, Mr White, Mr Benny (who thought the Government should thank the member for the Hutt for completing the good work of abolishing provincial charges), Mr

Reynolds, Mr Reid, and Mr Reeyes supported Mr Fitzherbert’s view. Mr Shephard thought to make the charge a colonial one would be to do an injustice to those provinces which had very little inland mails. He thought it would be better that the matter should be left to be considered during the recess. Mr G. M'Lean suggested the postponement of the discussion, as did also Mr Swanson. Mr White proposed that the Chairman do report progress, and at a quarterpast one the House adjourned. Tuesday, October 10. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. PAPERS Mr Gisborne laid on the table further papers relating to the construction of railroads, and other papers and returns. the manawattt. Mr COLLINS asked the Premier whether the whole of the purchase money for the Manawatu block, viz, £25,000, has been paid to those natives who were adjudged by the Native Lands Court to be the rightful owners thereof? The hon member said his reason for asking the question was because he thought it advisable that the House should know in what condition the affairs connected with the Manawatu block were at the present time ; whether those natives who were offering opposition had not really a grievance, or some good cause for offering opposition to the survey. He had no desire to harrass the Government by putting his question : he did so because he thought it necessary that the House should have the information for which he asked. If it turned out that the natives had been treated fairly by the Government he would be much gratified; but if, on the odier hand, it was found that they had just cause for complaint, it was necessary that steps should be taken to rectify the matter. Mr FOX said when Sir Walter Raleigh was a little hoy he was in the habit of asking his mamma very difficult questions on all subjects, and his mamma always answered him “Read and you will know.” He would answer the hon member in the same way. The whole of the information for which he asked was on the table of the House, and had been for years, so that if the hon. member had taken the trouble to read those papers there would have been no necessity to put the question. However, as he had preferred to put the question on the notice paper he would give a brief answer, which would make the whole matter clear to hon members. The question put was, whether the whole of the purchase money for the Manawatu Block had been paid to those natives who were adjudged by the Native Lands Court to be the rightful owners thereof? He would answer, “No; the money has not been so paid.” The reason was this: The Native Lands Court declared three sections of natives to be the rightful owners of the block. These three sections he would describe as A, B, C. Sections A and B sold their land to the Government for the sum of £25,000, which was then and there paid to the Commissioner. Section C never sold their interest in the block ; they retain that interest at the present time, and therefore had never been paid any money for land which had never been sold. moeraki jetty. Mr STEWARD asked the Minister of Public Works. “ whether the Government propose, in view of the early construction of the Waitaki-Moeraki Railway, to accede to the prayer of the petition of residents at Moeraki, asking that the Government will take over the materials imported by the Provincial Government for a jetty at the port of Moeraki, with a view to the utilisation of the same in the construction of such jetty in connection with the said railway?” Mr GISBORNE said it was sometimes difficult to draw a distinction between what were railway works and what were harbor works. In the construction of railways the Government must take care not to be led into the construction of harbor works also, because if they did so they would be constructing works not contemplated by the Act. The Moeraki jetty was one which might be considered partly as a railway work and partly as a harbor work. He would ask the Engineer-in-Chief, Mr Carruthers, to make a report on the subject, and when the Government were put in possession of that report it would be immediately laid on the table. TOWNSHIP OP OTEPOPO, OTAGO. Mr STEWARD withdrew a motion asking the Postmaster-General, in accordance with a petition from a number of residents in and near the township of Otepopo, in the province of Otago, the G-overnmens propose to open a money order and telegraph office in the said township. TREASURY BILLS BILL. The resolution of the committee of the whole on this bill was agreed to, and leave given to introduce the bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. A PERSONAL MATTER. Mr GISBORNE, before proceeding further with the business of the House, would like to make a few observations with reference to the allusions made by the hon member for the Dunstan, Mr T. L. Shepherd, to the action of Mr Beetham, the returning officer for the Wakatipu district. The House, he thought, would feel, when charges were made against an officer of the Government, that those charges should be definite in their character, so that, in accordance with principles of justice, the accused should know what he was charged with, and should have an opportunity of refuting it. Since the remarks to which he had referred were made by the hon member, he had received a telegram from the mayor, councillors, and others of Wakatipu, to the following effect:—“ We most emphatically deny the charges made against Mr Beetham of having acted with partiality during the election. Mr Beetham always has acted

most impartially, and kept aloof from interference in election matters. The hospital was appointed a polling place, on account of there being no other public building at Franktown. Only three of the patients polled, and they acknowledged to having voted for Mr Shepherd. —Signed by Messrs Hallenstein (mayor), Boyes, Duncan, Robinson, Acland, Bell, Mulligan, Bridges, Warren, and Maunders.” He hoped, under the circumstances, the hon member for the Dunstan would see that he had been so far in error as to induce him to withdraw the imputations he had thrown upon the character of Mr Beetham. Mr HAUGHTON said he was absent from the House when the statements were made by the hon. member, and he felt bound to say now that he entirely agreed with all that was stated in the telegram. He would merely repeat that Mr. Beetham had acted in a very impartial manner, and he was glad to see that the telegram was signed by Mr. Hallenstein, the Mayor, who was Mr Shepherd’s chief supporter at the election. Mr SHEPHERD said at the time of the ' election there was a strong feeling of indignation in the district on account of the hospital being made a polling place. It was well known that the votes were in favor of Mr Haughton, because it was olearly understood by his supporters that it was done in order to enable Mr Haughton to get a number of votes, and lie would again repeat that the hon. member for the Wakatipu held his r seat at this day in consequence of the proceedings to which he had referred. The signatures to the telegram were those of Mr Haughton’s supporters, but he did not attach any importance to the telegram at all; it was very easy in the district to get up that kind of thing. It must be remembered that the contest in the district was between the liberal party and the squatting party. The hon. member for the Wakatipu stood as the representative of the squatting party, and was strongly supported by Mr Boyes. He had no hesitation in saying that this telegram was inspired by the hon member for the Wakatipu, because he knew the hon. member’s tactics so well; therefore he did not attach much importance to it. Besides, this Mr Boyes canvassed the district for weeks in the interest of the hon member, and was then appointed deputy returning-officer. Was that an impartial act ? He ventured to say that it was anything but impartial to appoint a strong supporter of ©ne of the candidates to such an office. Mr MACANDREW desired to say that Mr Beetham was one of the most independentminded men, and he merely wished to bear his testimony that that gentleman was one of the last men who would be guilty of such conduct as that imputed to him by the hon member for the Dunstan. HIGHWAY BOARDS BILL. This bill was further considered in committee, and, the whole of the clauses of the bill having been gone through, the Chairman reported the amendments, which were ordered to be considered to-morrow. COMMITTEE OE WAYS AND MEANS. Mr STAFFORD, before the House went into committee, proposed to make a few observations on the proposals of the Government, and he would say at once that those proposals were eminently unsatisfactory to him and to those who acted with him ; they'viewed those proposals with very great alarm. Acting upon a figure of speech of the Colonial Treasurer, that he was in the position of a spendthrift who desired to remodel his conduct, and that the finances of the country were to be restricted for the future they had expected that the Government policy would have been so framed. But they found that the proposals of the Government were in an exactly opposite direction. On the 30th June last, the unfunded debt amounted to £216,650, including a sum of £28,000 which had been advanced on certain contingent liabilities on the confiscated lands which it was proposed to charge specially on those lands. Then came the deficency bills for £90,000, which was in reality an overdraft for which new bills are asked. On the whole their unfunded debt amounted to £276,650. At their present rate of progress in three years there would be an increased debt beyond the ordinary revenue of £353,000; even the defence department was being provided for out of the borrowed money. Together, their funded and unfunded debt amounted to £9,000,000, representing an annual charge of £542,588, or a tax of £2 2s 6d per head upon every man, woman, and child in New Zealand. He could only characterise their whole policy as a series of gambling transactions. With reference to their Board of Works, he considered the method of its constitution the most corrupt and the most susceptible of abuse it was 'within the ingenuity of man to provide. Their proposals were transparently rotten. In regard to the Brogden contracts, he knew of no right conferred by the proceedings of the legislature of the colony which authorised the Government to call them contracts. They were introducing into the country a foreign power which would destroy it ; a power which would be greater than the Government and the Legislature together. The contracts only fell short of taking over the whole country by not relieving us of the expense of Government. The guarantee system he considered the most ruinous the country could adopt. [Mr Stafford gave his reapons.] And ■when their credit was so high, in the English money market as it was at present, why should they go to the Messrs Brogden hat in hand and ask them to construct our railways ? In India and Victoria the result of inquiry was the universal condemnation of the guarantee system, and it would be desirable to reconsider the scheme, even if the House had given its adhesion to it. Another most objectionable feature was the proposal to pay for the railways in land. The Government had shunted No. 1 contract for the present, and he hoped the day would never come when the country

would authorise the giving away of the land for railway purposes, except where there had been most special and careful consideration of the case. There was one part of New Zealand where it might, be advisable to pay for railways in land, and that was the portion of the colony between Nelson and the West Coast if it should be desirable. With reference to their immigration proposals he had looked in vain for any proposal to settle the people on the lands of the country. He altogether objected to giving to the contractors twenty aerfes of land for every immigrant brought out by them He would have no objection to give the land to the immigrants themselves. He objected to having these immigrants “ shovelled” on our shores ; people who were gathered anywhere without any care as to their suitableness. He considered the policy of the Government to be a cowardly one. With reference to the constitutional proposals, he would say little. He could only say that he could not forget the taunts of the Premier when in opposition as to the Government performing the duty of political pedlars. Why, these very men who had been so solicitous as to the fate of the provinces had dealt them their death blow. If the late Government had whipped them with a whip, the present Government had whipped them with scorpions. Mr VOGEL pointed out that [a great deal of the denunciations of the hon member were renunciations of his own opinions of lest year. He had “ warned the Government,” but the Government had been warned that everything they did would prove a failure. Had they paid attention to warnings they would have done as little as their predecessors, and they did literally nothing in the way of progress. When he complained of their policy now he forgot that last year it was he who proposed that they should override the provinces and take away the whole of their land. (Hear, hear, from Mr Stafford, and “ Why don’t you do it now ?”) The objection to the construction of Government railways was an exploded idea; one that was being abandoned in England. He failed to see in what way the House desired to see reductions. He saw that every item that was proposed for reduction was resented by hon members. If the hon member objected to increased taxation, how did he propose to meet their deficiency ? The Government had not limited their constructive power to the formamation of a Timaru Board of Works Bill. They had come down with large measures, and if the hon member was not satisfied with them let him come down with proposals of his own. (Hear, hear.) The hon member had complained of the amount of money borrowed, yet he was of those who assisted in the borrowing. (Hear, hear.) With reference to the system of payments he was not prepared to say they would not modify them. With regard to the hon member’s remarks with reference to the Board of of Works, the Government proposed that three of the members should retire annually, because they did not desire to frame a cast iron board; that a board nominated by the outgoing Government should not be forced on the incoming Government. If the Government had said that the board should have been constituted for five years the hon member would have said that the Government had fixed upon the country an objectionable institution, requiring their continuance ia office. The hon. member had gone on to the popular platform by referring to a power behind the throne, but he could assure the hon member that the Government had no intention of favoring those persons who supposed that foreign capital should be shut out, and' the spending of the money of the country should be confined to them. At the risk of offending those persons and the hon member himself, he would say that it was the intention of the Government to encourage the coming into the country of contractors of large means, because it was better that they should deal with one person than with six or seven ; it would be very inconvenient to have the work stopped by one of the small contractors whom the hon member would like to see engaged on their railways. It was rather amusing that while we in the colony imagined we were under a hideous nightmare, the contractors themselves were under no such impression, but really thought the House had the best of the bargain. With regard to the guarantee system, he would say, not because he had been instrumental in drawing the contract himself, that they were, either one or the other, framed in such, a manner as to be more favorable to the Government than to the contractor. They were far more favorable than the Indian contracts, and he would tell the House that if they rigidly held to these contracts, the contractors were inclined not to go on with them. The question is—Do those contracts represent a favorable mode of carrying on the railways ? That he would leave with them to decide, but he would tell them that the Government had come to the conclusion unanimously that the most favorable terms for the colony were cash payments. The hon member was dissatisfied because, as he said, they had exceeded their powers. What would he have said if they had done nothing at all ? ’ They did not choose to stand idle; doing nothing at all as had been done by other Governments. The Government proposed to suit the emigration arrangements to the requirements of each, portion of the colony ; they desired to avoid any cast-iron system. The hon member seemed to have objections to everything the Government proposed and everything the Government did not propose. If the House wished to take into its hands the management of immigration he could only assure them that it would not be a success. With reference to whipping the provinces with scorpions, the hon member should have been the last to make any such, charge. They used to hear from the hon member that the table of the House literally groaned with petitions from the outlying districts, but where were those petitions now ?

All the groans they were now accustomed to hear were those of the hon member; the Government had successfully devised means for satisfving those wants. The hon member had alluded to his constructive power, but ■what had become of his own constructive power ? The country had never had any evidence of it, for neither he nor his colleagues could ever agree upon anything. He himself occupied the position of a centre between two poles. What had his Government done P They had succeeded in forming the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works and the Westland County Council. Contrast this with the present Government. Had they done nothing more than that ? Could they be accused of having done nothing at all? Were they to Bay nothing of the accomplishment of the formation of a line of communication by coach twice a week between Wellington and Taranaki; nor had they been negligent of domestic legislation. He could refer to the Land Transfer, the Annuities Act, and those other acts which had been proved to be bo successful by the test of experience. The Government had asked the Assembly to give them power and to assist them in using it for doing what we all came out to the country to do, and that was, to assist them in developing a country which, when we entered it, was little better than a wilderness. If they were allowed to go on with their policy he. believed that in the course of a few years New Zealand would be placed in a position of prosperity which would make it the envy of other colonies, and the admiration of other places which have as yet no connection with it. What the House had to consider is this. Will the Government of the country carry out this policy ? He felt so warm an interest in that policy ; he felt so anxious to see it carried out —to see it prosecuted to a successful termination, that it waß, for his part, a matter of utter insignificance as to who should direct it. No amount of sneers or hostile criticism could possibly deprive the Government of the credit of having initiated or of having put in progress those works, which were approved of throughout the country. If it was the opinion of the House that other persons could carry out that policy better than they could he would give them all the assistance it was in his power to give as an independent member, and not as the head of an organised onposition. The Government had already stated that they believed a strong Ministry was necessary, and wished the House to understand, that they had not made that statement in any feeling of weakness, but because they knew that a very strong Government was required at a time like the present. He regretted that they were to have no division on the termination of this debate —no division by which to enable them to test the feeling of the House on the acceptation or otherwise of their proposals, but nevertheless hon members would believe him when he said that it was necessary that there should be a strong Government now, because in initiating a system of public works like those of the Government, they required strength to contend with all those local jealousies which would naturally rise to the surface, and taken in that light, the hon. member deserved credit for having offered, last session, to assist. The colony had, to some extent, passed the threshold, but was yet very near the entrance. The board had been introduced with the view to separate, as far as possible, the prosecution of the public works of the country from the political feelings and prejudices of the passing moment, and if he were to look upon that objection as the chief indictment of the hon. member —that their system for carrying on the public works was faulty—all he wished to say was that the Government desired the board to be a tribunal in which the country would have confidence. The motion that the Speaker do leave the chair was then put and agreed to. WATS AND MEANS. On the suggestion of Mr Wood, the consideration, in committee of Ways and Means, of the Stamp Duties was postponed. GOLD DUTT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to>morrow. The bill is one to indemnify the Government for the collection of gold duty from the Ist October, 1870, to the Ist January last, a necessity which arose in consequence of a flaw in the original act. ELECTION PETITION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr FOX, who introduced this measure, withdrew it from the second reading, informing the House that a more perfect measure would be introduced next session. MOTUEKA ELECTION COMMITTEE. The consideration of the report of this committee was postponed. THIRD READINGS. The Agricultural Produce Lien Bill and the Jury Bill were read a third time and passed. the clutha river. Mr MURRAY withdrew his motions on the questions with reference to the improvement of the navigation of the Clutha river, and the granting of a crown grant to the Clutha Trust Estate. COMMITTALS. The Contractors Debts Bill was committed. Mr Bathgate proposed the introduction of a new clause to the effect that the word “ workman” should include any person supplying material to a contractor or sub-contractor, The motion for the insertion of the clause was negatived. Mr Swanson moved the insertion of a clause, compelling contractors to pay workmen for time lost through bills given by them in payment of wages not being met on presentation. The motion for the insertion of the clause was negatived, for the reason that it would endanger the passing of the measure during the present session, on account of the necessity, in accordance with the rules of Parliament, of transmitting the amendment for the consideration of the Legislative Council, The bill

was then read a third time and passed. The City of Dunedin Borrowing Bill was next considered. Mr Gillies proposed the insertion of a new clause, which debarred debenture holders under the hill from any claim on the provincial or colonial revenue. The insertion of the clause was agreed to. Some other amendments were made, which were ordered to be considered to-morrow. The Forest Trees Planting Encouragement Bill was next considered. Some amendments were made, which were ordered to be considered to-morrow. The Public Debts Sinking Fund Bill was considered. No amendments having been made the bill was read a third time and passed. The House adjourned at a quarter to two o’clock. Wednesday, October 11. The Speaker took the chair at half past two o’clock. PAPERS. Mr Gisborne laid on the table a number of papers and returns. RECLAIMED LAND, LYTTELTON. Mr E. RICHARDSON asked the Colonial Secretary whether the Government will comply with the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee in reference to the Reclaimed Land, Lytteiton, and insert the necessary clause in the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill to give effect to such recommendation ? Mr GISBORNE said the Government would bring down a clause for insertion in the bill, though he was not prepared at that moment to say what its nature would be. HALEPENNY POSTAGE. The motion that, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the postal charge upon newspapers within the colony be reduced to a halfpenny was withdrawn. PETITION OP A. S. DREYER. A motion of Mr Eyes, that the petition of Alex. S. Dreyer be referred to a select committee was, after a long debate, followed by a division, agreed to. PORT BRITOMART. Mr CREIGHTON withdrew his motion requesting that Fort Britomart and Albert Barracks, with adjoining ground, in the hands of the General Government, be handed over to the Auckland Harbor Board as an endowment for harbor purposes. HANSARD. Mr MERYYN moved that copies of Hansard fie sent to all the post offices throughout the colony. His object for moving the motion was that the people of the country were anxious to become acquainted with the proceedings of the House. He had been asked to bring forward the motion, because in many parts of the country storekeepers were appointed postmasters, and it would be an advantage that persons going to such post offices should have an opportunity of reading a record of the proceedings of the House. Mr WHITE hoped the Hansard would be sent to all the literary societies. He knew of many such institutions on the West Coast, such a 3 the literary society at Callaghan’s Gulley and that at Stafford Town, where it would be of great advantage to send them. todd’s murder. Mr GILLIES moved that it is desirable this House should be informed, so far as such information is consistent with public policy, what further steps the Government purposes to take with reference to the late Mr Richard Todd’s unprovoked murder, whilst in the Government service. He merely wished to know whether the Government intended to allow the murder to pass without taking any steps to avenge it, or whether they intended to carry out any definite policy in avenging this and similar murders. He had no desire to embarrass the Government by asking them to give any statement of the means they intended to adopt; he merely wished to know whether they intended to take any steps in the matter. Mr D. M LEAN said it was not, nor had it ever been, the intention of the Government to condone any murder committed by the natives. They had a sufficient sense of their duties and responsibilities, and would not for one moment admit that the murder of Mr Todd should be passed over without due consideration. They had already taken steps in the matter but they would choose their own time and fitting circumstances in the state of the colony to avenge the murder. He might mention that their action had met with the co-operation of several influential chiefs throughout the country, who approved of the means they were taking in this matter, saying that the Government had been too ready to go to war on such occasions. He did not wish to state publicly what the future action of the Government would be. Mr GIILLES was perfectly satisfied to hear that the method adopted by the Government was vengeance delayed, not abandoned. The motion was then withdrawn. rebel aggressions.

Mr WOOD moved that it is desirable this House should be informed whether it is the intention of the Government to prevent settlers in exposed out districts from protecting themselves by force against armed argres* sions of rebel natives? The hon member referred to the case of Mr Walker, of Waikato, who had had about fifty head of bis cattle driven off his run by the natives. In consequence of the annoyance, that gentleman wrote "to Mr Searancke, Resident Magistrate of Taranaki, complaining of how his cattle had been treated, and asking for permission to be allowed to protect himself and his property by force of arms. Mr Searancke replied and forwarded an instruction from the Defence Minister warning Mr Walker that it he attempted to use arms he would be held responsible for the consequences, and suggesting that his best course would be to seek redress in a court of law. He thought it right that the country should understand what

course the Government intended to take in matters of this description. Mr D. M'LEAN would state, merely for the information of the House, that there were many frontier districts where it would be impossible for the Government to take up every dispute without proper investigation. The telegram sent by him, to which allusion had been made, merely directed the General Government Agent to make inquiry before any armed party was allowed to go out. From subsequent inquiry it turned out that the cattle had strayed on to the land of the natives, at least the title to the land was in dispute, and under those circumstances it would not do to allow persons to take the law into their own hands. It was not the intention of the Government to allow individuals to enter into broils which would bring about a repetition of the serious occurrences of past years, nor would they permit outrages to be committed by the natives with impunity. Mr GILLIES said the reply did not in any way give the information desired. Here they had a case where cattle were taken by an armed force. The law of the land permitted private persons to defend themselves by arms against an armed force, and the settlers in the Waikato simply desired to be aflowed to protect their own property. The question was whether the Government intended to deprive settlers from doing what the law permitted them to do.

Mr FOX regretted that these abstract questions were permitted to be put on the paper. If the word “aggression” was to be understood as breaches of the law on the part of armed natives he would have no hesitation in saying that it was not the intention of the Government to prevent the settlers from protecting themselves and their legitimate rights; that was one of the cardinal points on which the Government took their seats. But that was not what was meant by the hon member for Parnell. The question was was this an armed aggression or was it not. The cattle of Mr Walker wandered on to the land of the natives, and they drove them back, injuring some of them, no doubt. Mr GILLIES: The land had passed through the Native Lands Court. Mr FOX did not wish to dispute the facts, although he thought he was correct in saying that the question of ownership was disputed, and the natives had simply driven the cattle off. But the whole matter came back to this : that these abstract propositions could come to nothing. The question between them was this: Have these natives broken the law ? Those who agreed with the mover of the motion said they had, and the Government said they had not. The Government had a large organised force, quite capable of holding its own; and it was their duty, if it were necessary to do so, to resist force by force —to take upon themselves the protection of the settlers. The circumstances of the case were not correctly stated by the hon member because the necessity for an armed defence had not yet arisen. The Government would on no occasion suffer armed aggression by the natives against the established rights of the settlers or their property, neither would they allow the settlers to take the law into their own hands. If the Government had acted wrongly in the matter, no doubt it would be taken advantage by the hon. member for Auckland City West as a casus lelli, and he was quite welcome to avail himself of it. Mr COLLINS thought as the country was paying at the rate of £IOO,OOO a year, the settlers should have the benefit of their services instead of being told to have recourse to law.

WI PARATA thought the question of taking arms against these natives was not right until the ownership of the lands had been decided. Entire peace had not yet been accomplished, b ut the measures of the present Government were producing a most beneficial effect. A policy framed on the opinions of the hon. member for Auckland City West, would cause native troubles, such as they had already gone through. If the Maoris, in their ignorance, resorted to arms, let not the Europeans be guilty of equal ignorance; let the matter be settled by law. Captain MTHERSON said the facts of the case were that Mr Walker had his cattle driven from where they were depasturing on to his homestead at a time where he had no feed to give them, and he drove them back. The discontent of the natives who had driven the cattle in had been brought about by the attempt of the Government to force a road through their country against their will. Mr GISBORNE said he regretted the bringing forward of such a motion. The object of the Government had been to reconcile the two races, while such motions as the present one would only tend to widen the breach. It was clear that the ownership of the property was disputed, and in such cases they must have forbearance, and give and take. Settlement of such disputes must be effected by compromise. At present they could not enforce the law in certain districts ; but let them maintain peace for two or three years longer, and then possibly they would be able to enforce the English law in all portions of the colony. Mr CREIGHTON said he regretted the delivery of such a speech as that of the Colonial Secretary; a speech which would be certain to find its way amongst the natives, and would have the effect of inciting them to harrass the natives in all the frontier districts. They were paying £IOO,OOO a year for an Armed Constabulary, and yet some time ago when a district of Taranaki was threatened by the natives, the members of their colonial force were practising the goose step in their barracks.

Mr KELLY thought they would be only trifling with the question by endeavoring to enforce European law in all the native districts. The hon member for Eden (Mr Creighton) should not be disappointed in the Armed Constabulary because he had formed

too high an expectation of them. They had not been more ignominiously defeated than had the Imperial trOops. He had seen 2000 of her Majesty’s troops, men who had conquered the world, surrounded and hemmed in by 200 natives.

Mr M'LEOD thought it was not a Maori war they had to fear. It was the class who had originated and kept going all their wars, the Pakeha Maori, who were to blame. He had no desire to flatter the Defence Minister, but it was now recognised both by Europeans and natives that he had thrown a charm over thenative affairs of the colony. He regretted to see the Superintendent of Auckland supporting a man like Mr Mackay, a person who was continually endeavoring to raise a barrier between the two races. He was sorry that he should identify himself with a person who had been guilty of some very “fishy” transactions in connection with the Ohinemuri affair. He could only refer to the intriguing of Mr Mackay in that matter as stabbing in the dark. He could testify to the generosity and nobility of the Maoris of the North, from the fact that when they had the whole of many districts at their disposal they had left bridges, and other public works undisturbed. Mr SWANSON felt ashamed of the speech just delivered. The hon member would not have dared to make such a statement before Mr Mackay. He would assure the hon member that he would hear more of the matter in another place. He (Mr Swanson) wished to see peace established as much as any member, and he could Bay that such was also the opinion of Mr Mackay himself. Mr ROLLESTON considered they should not allow this matter to stop where it was. A serious charge had been brought against an absent gentleman. It was in the power of the Defence Minister to decide the truth or otherwise of such statements. Having known Mr Mackay for many years he was not content to accept the assertions of the hon member. The dinner hour having arrived, the discussion was summarily terminated. MR MACANDREW’S RESOLUTIONS. Mr REYNOLDS, in speaking on these resolutions, suggested that the Legislature of the Middle Island should consist of a Lieut.Governor to be nominated by the Crown, and a Provincial Council to be elected by the people, and that the Lieutenant-Governor should be nominated for fire years. The land fund of the Middle Island should be one common fund, as also should the education reserves. Such a scheme would not in the least interfere with the Government proposals; it could be worked out vith advantage, because under such a system as the resolutions proposed, the affairs of the Middle Island could be managed far more economically than they could possibly be by the General Government: He thought it would be no saving to reduce the provinces to municipalities. Mr Rolleston and Mr Creighton addressed the Housi, the latter asking the Colonial Secretai’y what course the Government proposed to take. Mr GISBORNE replied that the Premier had already announced the opinion of the Government as opposed to the resolutions on the ground that they would be incompatible with the proposals of the Government. Mr MAC ANDREW, in the conclusion of his reply, said that such a step as that advocated must be taken sooner or latter, and he believed, with the hon member for Dunedin, (Mr Reynolds), that it would be before the expiration of the present Parliament. A division being called for, the result was: —Ayes, 22 ; Noes, 41. CHARITABLE EUNDS APPROPRIATION BILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. MASTERTON AND GREYTOWN LANDS MANAGEMENT BILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. CASE OR WILLIAM JACKSON. The House went into committee to consider an address to be presented to His Excellency the Governor, requesting him to cause the necessary steps to be taken to give effect to the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of William Jackson. Mr M‘LEAN moved that a commission be appointed by the Government to inquire into the claims of Major Jackson and the men of the first corps of Forest Rangers ; the inquiry to be made during the recess. On division the numbers were—Ayes, 26; Noes, 26. The Chairman, in order to show his condemnation of the claim, gave his vote with the noes. CHURCH LANDS BILL. This hill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. COMMITTALS. Te Intestates Estates Bill was committed. Some alterations were made, which were ordered to be considered on Friday. The Auckland Mineral Leases Bill was also committed. The bill was reported without amendment, and read a third time. BISHOPS IN NEW ZEALAND TRUST BILL. This bill was read a second time. VACCINATION BILL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this bill were considered. One amendment proposed rendered it compulsory that the vaccinator • should ascertain whether the operation had been successful ; another, that if the teacher of any school in receipt of Government aid should be of opinion that any child was unvaceinated he should give notice to a public vaccinator and have the child vaccinated. The amendments were agreed to. THE EDUCATION BILL. Mr FOX, on this order of the day being called on, said it was with very great regret he had to announce to the House that it was not the intention of the Government to proceed with the Education Bill this session. Ho was fully aware of the great importance of the bill, and how desirable it was that the

country should not he kept without a general meaeure on the subject. He was also ve*y well aware of the favorable reception which the Education Bill met with on the occasion of its second reading, and on all other occasions on which it had been before the House. He could not help observing that the progress of the bill when in committee—only five clauses having been passed during two sittings—was not such as to give any reasonable prospect of its becoming law during the present session, because the great struggle was yet ahead of them. Five clauses of the bill had been passed, and that was all that had been done. If the discussion of the other important clauses, such as those referring to the aided schools, were to involve a similar expenditure of time in proportion to their importance he thought it would be agreed that it was hopeless to expect that the bill would become law this session. The time of the House had been, he must not say wasted, for that would not be parliamentary, but it had been expended in firing off blank cartridges. Of such a character had been the proceedings of no less than eight days of the sitting of that important Assembly, and when he said that in consequence of that fluency of speech, that objectionable loquacity, that fatuity of mind, had the legitimate business of the House been delayed, and the progress of this important measure completely stopped, he was only expressing the chagrin he felt in moving that the order of the day for the second reading of the bill be struck off the paper. The bill would be introduced again next session, and he trusted that by that time hon members would have so blown off their steam, that the consideration of this and other large and important measures would have an opportunity of coming before the House and of being dealt with in the manner their importance demanded. In answer to various inquiries and suggestions, Mr Fox stated that the Government had no intention at present of making any further amendments in the bill than those already before the House, If they did find it desirable to do so they would take care to circulate such amendments through the country. The motion was then disenarged from the paper. WELLINGTON LOAN BILL. Mr EITZHERBERT, in asking for leave to introduce the bill to enable the province of Wellington to borrow £IOO,OOO, said he had to contend against what he might call a prepossession of opinion, but he hoped such a feeling would not be permitted to weigh against the reasons he had to urge in favor of the measure. The amount asked for was in aid of one of those institutions of the country which were not much in favor now-a-days. The present indebtedness of the province is £261,906, carrying an annual charge in interest and sinking fund of £16,250. Of that amount of £261,906 they had repaid in sinking fund about £20,000, so that they were really only indebted to the extent of £240,000. Then, he might fairly claim that there would be a further reduction of £31,000 when the Reclaimed Land Bill, which had passed through so many fiery ordeals, became law; so that in answer to the question, “ How do you stand in regard to your indebtedness,” his reply would be, “We stand indebted to the extent of £215,000.” Then he might be asked, “ What have you done with that £215,00 0? To that question he had to reply, “ We have made 406 miles of roads, and spent on those roads £226,668, yielding an average cost per mile of £558. We have constructed bridges in the province to the amountof £53,000 odd. Taking the two items together, thei’efore, we had spent in roads and bridges, £280,000.” That was what they had done with the money. In addition, they had spent £37,466 in the introduction of immigrants, and £76,122 in the survey of the lands of the province, making a gross total, independent of departmental charges, the maintenance of gaols, police, &c., of £393,751. That was the amount of their expenditure, against an indebtedness of £215,000. But let hon. members contrast what be would call their real indebtedness, £261,000, with the indebtedness of other provinces. Auckland was indebted to the amount of £682,000; Taranaki, £31,000; Wellington, £261,000; Hawke’s Bay, £113,000; Nelson, £78,000; Marlborough, £16,000; Canterbury, Westland, £607,000; and Otago, £1,000,282. It was the habit te assert that the surveys of the province were no good, but he would say, on the highest, authority, that there was no system of survey in other provinces based on such scientific principles as those of the province of Wellington. He might be asked what they proposed to do with this £IOO,OOO. To begin with, about £BI,OOO would be absorbed in respect of old debts, leaving a balance for new appropriations of only about £19,000. With this money they proposed to expend—for the patent slip, £SOOO ; balance of arrears left by his predecessors on account of contracts, £12,500; repayment by deposits belonging to the savings bank, £9,000. In reference to this item he might say that he hoped that the province of Wellington would notin future have any of these trust funds placed at its disposal. Then there was an overdraft at the Bank of New Zealand of £10,400, a debt incurred by bis predecessors in office ; sundries, £1,504; debt to General Goverment, £25,068: and another small item of £235. Then there would be an amount of £25,000 set apart for the completion of the arrears of survey, the expenditure of which would extend over a period of years. It was highly essential that the great colonial work of survey must be gone on with, and this was a work which would have to be done either by the colony or by the province, for he was so far sceptical as to the success of the Land Transfer Act as to say that unless they went on the foundation of accurate surveys the whole of that vaunted system must break down ; so that in reality this work was as much a colonial one as a provincial one.

Mr GISBORNE said the Government felt convinced that by allowing the province to have the power sought for, they would be adopting a wise and most prudent course in acceding to the present application. The Governmentfelt that whatever might be the course of provincial institutions, by granting this request the province would be able to co-operate in carrying on their great colonising work. If the Government took over the province of Wellington, and had to pay her debts, as they would have to pay them, they would be doing much worse than allowing her to borrow this money. As a matter of profit and loss it would be a gain to accede to this bill, putting upon it what restrictions the House liked, toseetbat the security given was applied to the payment of the interest and sinking fund. It would be more profitable to the colony prospectively and in a colonising point of view, to allow the power asked for. Mr C alder, Mr Staeeord, Mr Rolleston, and Mr Wood, strongly opposed the introduction of such a measure, confessing themselves amazed at the action of the Government in giving its sanction to a bill of the kind, pointing out that such a request was in entire contradiction of the tacit understanding which had existed for some time past, that Provincial borrowing should be put a stop to; Mr Calder showing, by quotations from the statement of the Colonial Treasurer, that the acceptance by them of such a proposal was in direct contradiction of the schemes enunciated by the Government in recent statements. Mr Cal* der also exposed the fallacy of a statement of Mr Gisborne, that the borrowing of the money would enable the province to co-operate with the General Governmenl in carrying out the great public works. How could that be so when the hon member who moved for the introduction of the bill told them that the money was to liquidate outstanding debts ? Mr Rolleston moved the adjournment of the the discussion. Mr Stafford said he never heard such a lame attempt to bolster up a weak case as the statement, made from the Government benches, speeches which contained opinions directly opposed to the policy of last year, and to the bills of the present year, which had not even passed through the House. On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair a division was called for, the numbers being—Ayes, 21; Noes, 19. The House then went into committee, and a motion that the Chairman report progrees was then put and agreed to, leave being given to sit to-morrow. At a quarter to two the House adjourned. Thursday, October 12. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. DUNEDIN WATERWORKS BILL. The amendments of the Legislative Council in this bill were agreed to. PUBLIC REVENUES ACT. Mr VOGEL moved that this House will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a committee of the whole to consider of giving leave to introduce the Public Revenues Act Amendment Act, 1871. Agreed to. FIRST READINGS. The following bills were read a first time : —A bill intituled an Act to Dispose of the Military Reserves situate in the city of Auckland, and a bill intituled an Act to enable the Auckland Harbor Board to construct a Dock, and to raise money to defray the cost thereof — which were ordered to be read a second time to-morrow ; an act to provide a system of Appealing against Bates imposed under the authority of Ordinances passed or to be passed by provincial legislatures, and a bill intituled an Act to correct the Descriptions of the Boundaries of the Electoral Districts for the Election of Members of the House of Representatives, which were ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday; a bill intituled an Act to Amend the Canterbury Waste Land Regulations, and providing for the sale of Land on Deferred Payment; a bill to amend the Wool and Oil Securities Act, 1851, which was ordered to be read a second time tomorrow. LIGHTHOUSE AT OAMARU, Mr STEWARD, at the request of the Government, withdrew a motion to the effect that the memorandum by Mr Johnson on the coastal lights of the colony, laid on the table on the 3rd October, be printed ; and that the Government take steps to obtain, during the recess, an official report as to the necessity of a fixed light at Cape Wan brow, port of Oamaru. GOVERNMENT OF PROVINCES BILL. Mr VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this bill, said the Government had no desire to carry out those rapid changes contained in the allegation that they were going to sweep away Provincial Councils. The proposals contained in it were introduced honestly, with a view to carry out the intentions the Government had already described, those intentions being to make Provincial Councils less unwieldy, and more economical —to reduce their cost, which amounted to £30,000 per annum. As the House was already aware, the bill proposed that the dissolution of the Provincial Councils should not necessitate the resignation of the Superintendents, and viceversa. The reason for this was that it generally happened that after an election for Superintendent an amount of irritation was left behind, which influenced more or less the elections for members of the Council, and he thought it was not wise that the results consequent on that irritation should continue to exist. The whole scope of the bill was rather to discourage the tendency which was making provincial institutions a reflex or copy of their Parliamentary proceedings, and to induce them to confine themselves to proceedings of usefulness—that there should be less of adornment and more of utility. Mr CURTIS was disappointed with the bill, which he thought should have taken higher ground. The measure involved two great points : One was that it would prolong the sittings of the Legislature and absolutely

necessitate the expenditure of a greatly increased amount for payment of members. Was the House prepared to say that the Legislature should sit for six or nine months in the year, for that was what would be the result if the functions of the Provincial Legislatures were so circumscribed as they would be by this bill. The General Assembly would have to perform a greatly increased amount of work of the nature which was even now growing upon the House—work which was of a purely local nature and should be performed by local institutions. The Government were really abolishing Provincial institutions without providing anything in tlieir stead, the only point observed throughout the bill being the minor one of attempting to save expense. The bill would have the effect of destroying the independence of the Superintendents of provinces in the colonial legislature, and he did not think it was the desire of the House that the independence of any of its members should be sacrificed. He had a great distrust of portions of the bill, which he thought, as indeed he thought of the whole series, was not sufficiently digested. He hoped the House would not pass the bill. He intended to vote against it. Mr GISBORNE said the hon member had evidently spoken against the bill in the belief that there was wisdom in a multitude of counsellors. He had nob shown that it was impossible that the work to be done by Provincial Councils at the present day could not be done as well by ten as by twenty. It was a notorious fact that while the number of the members of these councils had greatly increased of late years, the subjects legislated upon had correspondingly decreased in importance. He had not shown why there should not be, as they proposed, a greatly decreased expenditure. He (Mr Gisborne) contended that the action of the Legislature should gradually contract the duties of the provincial bodies until they were reduced to the form of corporations. The dissolution of the council and the retiremant of the Superintendent concurrently had been found to be very inconvenient in addition to being very expensive, and they now proposed, as a sufficient test of public feeling, that one or the other should go to the people. The power was given to the Governor to say, in case of a dead lock, whether the Superintendent should go to the country, or whether the Council should, or whether it would be better that both should resign. The principle of the bill was to adapt the institutions of the country, whether in their growth or in their decay, to the varied requirements of its different parts. By doing so they would only be doing what had made England so great a country as she was, namely, adapting their political institutions to their political circumstances. The desire of the Government was to introduce a simple and comprehensive form of local government. Mr SHEPHERD said it was not necessary, in considering the present bill, that they should take any cognisance of the fact that the members composing the ministry who were now introducing a bill for completely abolishing provincial institutions were the same persons who had taken their seats on a pledge to continue their existence. To come to the merits of the bill, he did not at all approve ©f the manner of its changes, although he did believe that Provincial Councils should be somewhat placed in the position of a mayor and councillors. Their superintendent might be elected for two years, and their board, or executive, they might might call them what they liked, Provincial Treasurer or Provincial Secretary, should be only two in number, and there should be no power of dissolution. His own idea of reform in the matter was that they should establish shire councils for the administration of local affairs. The bill as it stood would establish the worst form of provincial institutions, and he therefore did not think that he should vote for the second reading. Mr GILLIES said if the bill really did aim at reducing the cost and maintaining the efficiency of Provincial Governments it would have had his hearty support; if there were any portions of it which went in that direction he would support them. He saw that the bill did reduce the expense of elections somewhat, but otherwise the existing machinery was not lessened in the slightest degree. It maintained its Provincial Treasurers, Provincial Secretaries, and expenses for survey and other departments. And as pointed out by the hon member for Nelson, the Legislature would have to be done either by the Provincial or by the General Legislatures, but it would have to be done, and therefore the expense would not be reduced. They would curtail Provincial Legislatures and increase the duties of the Assembly. A clause of the bill proposed that it should not come into force in the several provinces until the expiration of the term for which the councils had been elected ; so that, seeing that many of them have yet three or four years to run, they would lose all the benefit of it, because according to their present financial condition they must die of starvation within that time. The reduction of the number of members of the Councils he entirely approved of, and should like to see such a reduction extended to the House of Representatives, which would be a greater improvement still.Tbe power of dissolution conferred upon the Governor he confessed he did not like, because he could see that it was a power that might be used in a very objectionable manner. Amongst other causes for dissolution the clause proposed that in case of disagreement the Governor should have power to dissolve the Council. Who was to say what constituted a disagreement ? Why, the Government of the day, of course ; and was such a power not likely to be abused ? In addition to that there was a power to dissolve “ for other reasons.” There was no knowing what that might cover. It might be the desire of the present Government, as it had been of other Governments, to substitute for an

objectionable Superintendent a very humble servant. The Superintendents, he. thought, should be independent in their positions. He could only say that the bill was very vaguely drawn; there seemed to have been a great Nvant of care in its preparation. He would follow the member for Nelson and vote against the bill.

Mr G. B. PARKER approved generally of the bill, but hoped the Government would modify some of its provisions in committee, so as to do greater justice to outlying districts. Mr SWANSON said it was customary to speak of the trivial nature of the legislation of the provinces, but let the House just take the one matter of education. Had not the provinces dealt well with that matter? Certainly, Nelson and Otago had dealt successfully with the subject, and yet the superior legislature had utterly failed in that direction. He did not approve of the sitting of the Superintendent in the Council. He could conceive eases in which the Council, after dissolution, would hold opinions diametrically opposed to the Superintendent. What were they to do in such cases ? The Superintendent was elected by the people as well as the Council itself; he had as much right to say that he represented public opinion as did the Council itself. He would vote against the bill.

Mr O’RORKE would move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. He looked upon the bill as a lamentable failure. They had been two months frittering away their time, indulging in constitutional-monger-ing, when they should have been getting through some of the important business before them. He could not conceal from himself the

fact that the present ministry had ridden into office as the champions of provincialism, and yet they had made proposals with reference to them that no other Government would have dared to do. He would move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr REID seconded the amendment. Whatever difficulty there was in the Working of Provincial Governments, this bill proposed no remedy; the whole of the measures were really most ill-considered. He had heard no demand from the people for such a measure as the present, nor did he see how it could reduce expenditure. He quite agreed that the Superintendents should occupy a seat in the Councils, and he would not envy him his position, but he did not see how that would reduce expanse. The reduction of the number of members might reduce expense, but he knew of nothing so dangerous as a reduction of expenditure; that was the worst species of economy. Often cases arose, even now, where the casting vote of the Speaker of the Council decided important questions, and how much more likely was that to be the case with limited numbers. He entirely approved of responsible government, and he did not see that the bill .proposed to change it, although it professed to do so, so that in reality it could not possibly effect any reduction in that way. The Council would still have the power to express its disapproval of Executives, and also to vote salaries, and he quite agreed that they should have that power, but it proved that the bill would not do what it was supposed it would do. To the dissolving power he entirely disagreed. He could see that it meant to confer upon the Government a despotic power, because if the Superintendent were a Government supporter, and the Council were against him, who was likely to be dissolved —the Council or the Superintendent ? He thought it far better that the Provincial Councils should be left as they were. There was no doubt that they would soon die out of themselves. If the Colonial Treasurer would introduce a measure to give better local selfgovernment,he would have deserved the thanks of the House.

Mr WAKEFIELD pointed out that what the bill proposed to substitute for what it abolished was of a nature highly inexpedient and dangerous. He entirely agreed that the Superintendent should have a seat in the Council, but would strenuously oppose any reduction in the number of members. He agreed with the member for the Taieri that it was highly dangerous to have too limited a representation ; there was more to fear from too limited a representation than from too large a one. In reference to the dissolution clauses, he thoroughly agreed with the sympathies and feelings expressed by the Superintendent of Nelson when he said that the independence of Superintendents sitting in the House would be seriously affected by leaving so large a power in the hands of the General Government, uncontrolled by the wish of the Legislature. It gave them the power to dismiss a Superintendent to the great disadvantage of Provincial advancement. He would support the amendment that the bill be read a second time that day six months.

Mr ROLLESTON thought the bill dealt with petty details, but did not go to the vital part of their difficulties. The proposals of the Government seemed only to be a shuffling of the oards, so that those portions of the country that had managed their affairs in a careful and prudent manner would suffer, and would throw into the common stock the result of their prudence in past times. Their proposals would impoverish those who were capable of doing the work of the country, and leave the whole colony in a state of prostration. He would oppose the bill, because it did not deal with the matter in any manner that would be ultimately satisfactory to the people. The Government had pointed, but had not pointed far enough, to the direction in which a simplification of the affairs of the colony should be brought about. So long as the powers of the pi’ovinces remained in their present indeterminate condition so long would there be a want of good Government in the country. Mr COLLINS looked at the bill as a barefaced attempt to gain political power at the expense of the Superintendents, who might as well be nominated by the "Government as oc-

cupy the position they would be in if the bill were passed. He hoped it would be thrown ° U Mr BATHGATE would ask the hon. member who introduced the bill, “ Who asked for this change ? ” They had no evidence of discontent in the people; they had been met merely with assertions that it would be desirable because it would be more economical. He denied that there would be any saving, nor had it been proved that there would be. He found from statistics that the administration of the province of Otago was conducted at a far less cost than was any similar amount of administration of the General Government. He had heard a remarkable phrase used by the Premier that the Colonial Treasurer had spoiled the House. He was of the contrary opinion. He thought the House had spoiled the Colonial Treasurer, who was something like a spoiled child who must have his own way in everything. That kind of thing might have been all very well in the moribund state of the last Parliament, but he hoped the present House would have sufficient felf-respect to enable it to take a more dignified stand. With reference to the placing of the Superintendents in a seat in the councils he did not approve of it, and again he would aek, “ What Superintendent has asked for it ? ” Heregarded thereduction of the number of the members as dangerous to the people and dangerous to the State. He could imagine a man of indomitable will, with an acute intellect, like the Colonial Treasurer, backed by another of iron nerve, taking possession of the offices of the provinces, and, with so small a number in the Council against them, setting the rest of the colony at defiance. He coniidered portions of the bill to be the most outrageous that were ever submitted to a free legislature. It placed in the hands of the Governor, which of course meant the Government of the day, power to dissolve the Councils. There was no economy in that. It was merely putting into the hands of the Central Government a power that they should not possess. He did not care who occupied the Government benches, he objected to giving them the right to hold a rod of iron over the heads of the Provincial Councils. He altogether objected to additional power being given to the Central Government. If they had to remodel the constitution, let it be said that they had endeavored to place power in the hands of the people and not in the Government. Mr Q’CONOR thought it desirable that the Superintendent should sit in the Council of his province, and he looked upon the reduction of the members as a very desirable attempt to reduce them to local boards. With less members the Provincial Councils would have sufficient power to perform their legitimate functions. He had seen in Otago, where the system of administration was highly extolled, a great waste of time and money on a superabundance of officials. The bill was not a perfect one, because it did not make provisions for out districts j it left too much to town centres. He was prepared to accept the bill as an instalment of what they all desired, and he hoped it would be. permitted to be read a second time, so that it might be moulded to their desires when in committee. Mr WHITE had not studied the bill very attentively, but what little time he had spent in a perusal of its provisions had brought him to a feeling of hearty contempt for it. He could not conceive the possibility of their passing such a flimsy immature measure as this. He hoped there was sufficient power of reason left in the House to reject it. In reply to an argument which had been used by the hon member for Dunedin (Mr Bathgate) that the County Council of Westland was an example of the evils resulting from limited representation, the facts of the case were that an honorarium of £SO had been granted by the County Council on his motion, and not £IOO as had been, stated. He trusted the Government would withdraw the bill.

Mr WILLIAMSON said he came down pledged to support the policy of the Government of last session, but when he found an entirely new policy brought t before him he must hesitate before he voted for that policy. He would like to see the discussion adjourned, otherwise many members who desired to support the Government would be compelled to rote against them. There were matters connected with the consideration of the measure requiring a great amount of deep thought. Mr REYNOLDS seconded the motion. Although a change was desired by the people and their representatives this bill did not meet such a wish. The best thing they could do would be to give the Superintendent power to dissolve the council and give the council power to remove the Superintendent by a vote of two-thirds of the members. It was highly injurious to have the Superintendent and Council elected at the same time. They had evidence of the evils in the proceedings of the late eleotion of the Superintendent of Otago, where the most objectionable practices had been resorted to $ officials taking an active part in politics, and roadmen being told that if they did not vote a certain way they would lose their situations.

Mr EEEVES hoped the bill would be with* drawn. He understood the Colonial Treasurer to say when he announced the proposals of the Government that he was going to bring in a measure for the simplification of provincial institutions, but he saw, in place of simplification, their destruction. The people of the part of the colony from which he came were not prepared for that destruction. They did desire to see a measure for the simplification of Provincial Councils brought down, and he trusted they would see such a measure brought down at a future day. The desire of the people for a long time had been that the Government should define, once and for all, what were the functions of the provincial legislatures and their Governments. If the hon gentlemen who occupied the Government' benches were

willing to devote their talents and their time, during the recess, to the framing of a bill having for its object a real simplification of the provincial system, the people, he thought, would be quite willing to wait, and he ventured to state that they would bring down a measure that would meet with the prevailing tendency of public opinion. He hoped the measure would be withdrawn. Mr YOGEL said he would ask hon members to look upon this measure as upon the other two measures which had for their aim the one object of reducing the expenditure of the provincial establishments. One of those other measures said to the provinces, “ If you are not able to carry on your functions you may hand them over to the Government, and the Assembly will decide what course shall be adopted in regard to them.” The third bill simply said that they should pay to the provinces that amount of revenue which the Government were enabled to afford. He would state distinctly to the House that unless they were prepared to afford a means of increased taxation he saw no way of paying the allowances to the provinces. Then they were faced with the contingency that if the provinces did not reduce the cost of their establishments, receiving, as they will, a less amount of money from the colonial chest, they would find what they had found before, that a larger amount of money would be required from time to time to make up the outstanding indebtedness of the provinces. The bill was a warning to the provinces, whether it passed or not, that it would be absolutely necessary for them to reduce their expenditure if they proposed to retain the functions which they had hitherto enjoyed. What he wanted to see brought out very clearly was, that the Government wished to say to the provinces, “ You must find your own expenditure ; we cannot find further means for you.” The Government thought it was the opinion of the country not to see any violent sweeping away of provincial institutions. It had been said by one hon member that nine out of every ten of the members of the House would vote for the abolition of provincial institutions. He ventured to say that nine out of every ten would vote, not for their abolition, but for their reform ; and that was the opinion of the people outside the House. When they brought down proposals such as the one before the Houso, they found that all those allegations about the necessity for sweeping away provincial institutions were only skin deep. But the sweeping away of provincial institutions was no part of the policy of the present Government. The bill before the House had been brought down to enable the making of a large reduction in the scale of expenditure of those kodies, and he was very sorry it had not met with such a reception as it would have been to the interest of those who had the interest of the provinces at heart to accord to it. At that late period of this session at which they had arrived it would he folly to attempt to drive through any measure if it was the intention of any section of the House to oppose it, and it seemed their intention to oppose this measure. It was evident from the temper of the House that this bill could not be passed this session without a large expenditure of time, and it was only due from the Government to say to those members who worked with them that it would be only a graceful act on their part to pay attention to the representations made by those hon members on the subject of the bill, not only in the House but out of it. Therefore, if the adjournment were agreed to, he hoped. the House would understand that its meaning was not that the Government had made any admission of weakness, but as some objection had been offered by many members who support the Government, they bowed to those representatives, and were willing, if the motion for adjournment were carried, that it should be understood as meaning that the measure should not be introduced during the present session. Mr M'GLASHAN felt bound to say that he had been sent there by a constituency which desired some modification, and the modification he would like to see would be that they should he deprived of their legislative functions. He looked upon representative institutions in Otago as a perfect farce. They had their clerks to do their work. They did not require a Provincial Treasurer and Provincial Secretary at salaries of £4OO. Mr M'GILLIYRAY thought the bill went too far iu one direction, and not far enough in another. It went too far in crippling the powers of the Provincial Councils while permitting them to remain, and not far enough iu not abrogating these Provincial institutions altogether. What we wanted was local selfgovernment throughout the length and breadth of the land, and such a system would be quite incompatible with the present form of Provincial Government. Mr GILLIES thought members on all sides should be gratified to see the General Government so ready to accept hints. The Colonial Treasurer had given the provinces notice that they must accept the hint; he hoped the General Government themselves would accept the very strong hint they had received that evening; On the motion that the debate be adjourned until that day week, Mr SWANSON moved that the words that day six months” be substituted. Mr WOOD thought the Government, after their promise that the measure would be withdrawn, should have moved that the order be discharged. ■ The motion for the adjournment was then put and agreed to on the understanding that on that day the Government will agree to the discharge of the order. ABOLITION OF IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL. A message from the Legislative Council transmitted a bill for the abolition of imprisonment for debt, which was read a first time.

PAYMENTS TO PROVINCES BILL. Mr VOGEL moved the second reading of

this bill, pointing out that unless increased taxation were consented to it would be impossible to continue the contributions to the provinces under the Payments to Provinces Act of last session. The bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. TREASURY BILLS BILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to be considered to-morrow. HIGHWAY BOARDS BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. GOLD DUTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a third time. GOLD MINING DISTRICTS BILL, AND GOLD MINES DRAINAGE BILL. These two bills, relating exclusively to the mines at Auckland, were read a second time and referred to the Goldfields Committee. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ACT REPEAL BILL. Mr BATHGATE, in moving the second reading of this bill, said he thought the House would exonerate him from holding any feeling of hostility towards the Attorney General. There was no member of the House who entertained a higher opinion of that officer in every respect, either as a lawyer or as a gentleman. It would be recollected that in a recent debate the Colonial Treasurer had made use of an opinion of the Atterney-General’s to endeavor to stifle a bill, and prevent its being read a second time. The hon gentleman used that opinion against him, knowing very well at the time that the matter of which he complained might be remedied in committee. There were circumstances when it would be quite right for the Government to state the opinion of the law officer, but perhaps there never would be again an occasion in which it would be necessary to stifle a bill; whether there ever was or was not, he might state that that was not the reason for bringing the bill in this session. He quite understood that a number of hon members felt the want of an officer of legal attainments being in the House, and felt that the Attorney-General should be present to state his opinions on important measures brought before them. Only last night they had an important measure before them, the Intestate Estate Act, when the hon member for Dunedin (Mr Reynolds) stated that he hoped it would be submitted to the perusual of a lawyer before it passed into law. Again, that day the Goldfields Committee had rejected a bill on account of the construction of one of its clauses, which was a page and a quarter in length, and was so involved that it could not be understood. It was proper that the Attorney-General should be in the House to give them the benefit of his learning. He would leave the matter with the House, having brought it forward because many older members had felt the want much more than he had done, and because a general feeling was entertained that the arrangement by which the present Attorney-General held his office should cease, and that they should have the law officer of the Government in the House. Besides, it was only due to the members of the profession at large that they Bhould have the opportunity of aspiring to the high honor of leading the opinions of the House on matters of law.

Mr YOGEL said the passing of such a bill would be to perpetrate an act of injustice. It was well known that the Attorney - General had taken the office on the understanding that he should hold it during good behaviour, and to dispute that now would be an act of bad faith. He could excuse the hon member for temporary excitement, but he did not think he would carry his feeling to such an extent. He had studied the act over which the dispute had arisen, and he found that portions of it were so involved that he, as a private member, consulted the Attorney-General, and communicated the opinion to the House, which he held, he had a perfect right to do. The arrangement with the Attorney-General had nob worked ill, and, more than that, if he were a member of the House it would be impossible for him to get through the work of his office. All bills which passed through the House were submitted to him before they passed their second reading. It must be remembered that the AttorneyGeneral had left a very large practice to accept the office. He hoped the hon member would withdraw the motion.

Mr BATHGATE would prefer to have the opinion of the House as to whether it was desirable that such an act should be passed. He would allow the matter to be decided on the voices.

Mr EEID thought it would be much better if the Government had taken the opinion of the Attorney-General on theGoldfields Act'of 1870. He would, however, like the Colonial Treasurer to obtain the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral on the Otago Lands Bill, and produce it on Wednesday next, when the bill would come up again. Mr Gillies supported the second reading, as did Mr Fox, who pointed out that the fact of the non-political nature of the office had operated prejudicially to the welfare of the House and the profession. It was to the fact of the office being held in perpetuity by one person that he attributed the absence of many lawyers of high standing from the House. The office was naturally looked upon in this country, as it was at home, as the rightful prize of the profession. But they must bear in mind that before they did do away with the office they would have to make fair compen-. sation to the present holder. Mr Brandon supported this view. Mr Bathgate was willing to withdraw the motion on the understanding that it should be introduced next session, but Mr Eeynolds objected on the ground that the question had been well considered by the House five years ago. It was found at that time that it was objectionable to change the occupant of the office because it always happened that opinions in actual law changed with them. Mr GrsBORNE said if the question was to be discussed it should be

discussed in a full house. The motion was withdrawn. The House adjourned at ten minutes past one.