LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald and Auckland Gazette, Volume I, Issue 60, 16 March 1842, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Conclusion of the Debates, on Monday , January on the Second Reading of the First Land Claims' Bill; —a portion of which was given in the Herald of Wednesday, March 9. Mr Earp, during the incidental discussion, said “If I had been sent to this country, to choose a place for the seat of Government, 1 should, most assuredly, have selected Auckland,” The Attorney General said—The principles upon which this bill is framed have already been so fully developed in your Excellency’s opening address, that, on a subject of less importance I should have contented myself by simply moving its second reading. But on a measure, involving the successful colonization of this country —a measure of which I shall take my full share of responsibility, and in which I feel so strong an interest—l need scarcely offer any apology for occupying the time of the Council with a few observations. Before doing so, however, I would advert to the petition which has been presented to this Council, purporting to convey the sentiments of the landowners of Kororarika, on the subject now under our consideration. If that petitio \ expresses the opinions of any considerable nun ber of the landowners of the North, I cannot b express my astonishment and regret, that so la a number of persons, professing to be so deer interested in the subject should be found in t. s country, possessing so little acquaintance w ; h the views of her Majesty’s Government, in reference to the subject or its colonization. The assertions, hazarded in that petition are, that the principles on which the land in this country is claimed, are unconstitutional and unjust;—that the Local Government is incompetent to legislate with a view to the settlement of the Land Claims’ question ; —that, in acquiring the sovereignty over New Zealand, the British’ Government were influenced, almost entirely, by a desire to promote the interests of those already settled in the country;— that they did not contemplate the founding of an extensive colony ; and, consequently, the acquisition of large tracts ot land by the Crown were unnecessary ; —and that, granting this Council to be competent to deal with this subject, the proposed mode of settling the question, is at variance with the views of her Majesty’s Government. In demonstrating the utter falsity of these assertions, it will be my duty to prove that the main object of the Government at home, in acquiring the sovereignty of New Zealand, was, on the contrary, its colonization on an extensive scale, on those principles which experience has proved to be most

Uvantuscoos ;-and that the course prescribed by til Secretary of State for dealing with this ques- [. has invariably been recommended with a S to4C object. In deviating from that ™ L from any pressure from without, or from fa, other cause! the Local Government would not onfv be disregarding the obvious views of the Government at home, but would be justly chargeable with the virtual destruction of one of e faired possessions of the Crown. Anxious, how!ve for the welfare of all, the Government have Prepared a measure which, they confidently expec jjV consistently with the prosperous settlement f Colony, really promote the individual interests of the claimants themselves, and winch after his Excellency s explanations, will rece from the Colonists that consideration and supp which a government, honestly labouring for the ood of the country, has a right to expect. I dunk ££everv member of the Council will agree with jt any time, be a Vra hi -TiidiffN Tiff 5 w°u principles on which the Colony has been founded iy the Crown. It is sufficient for us to know that Her Majesty’s Government have determined to subject all claims to land in this colony to investigation ; —and quoting the language of the Secretary of State, “ with regard to all lands in the colony, acquired under any other title than that of grants under the Crown;” and. on behalf of Her Majesty, it is proposed that the title of the claimants should be subjected to the investigation if a commission, to be constituted for that pur>ose. The basis of that inquiry will be “ the insertion, on behaif of the Crown, of a title to all lands situate in New Zealand, which have, heretofore, been granted by the Chiefs of these Islands, in accordance with the customs of the country, and in return for some adequate consideration —and, that it was an express instruction to yourself that you should announce, by proclamation, addressed to all the Queen’s subjects in New Zealand, that “ Her Majesty will not acknowledge, as valid, any title to land which either has been, or shall hereafter be, acquired in that countrv, which is not, either derived from, or confirmed by, a grant to be made in Her Majesty’s name and on her behalf.” The denial of the competency of this Council to deal with the subject, can only be advanced by those who are entirely ignorant of the constitution of the Colony, and the views of Her Majesty’s Government. By the Royal Charter, tile Legislative Council thereby appointed, is authorized “ to make and ordain all such Laws and Ordinances as may be required for the peace, order, and good government” of the Colony. And, if this is not sufficient to authorise this Council to legislate on the subject, the Governor is expressly directed that, with reference to the Land question, if, “ on the receipt of this despatch,a commission appointed by the government of New South Wales shall be in force in New Zealand, you will takethe earliest opportunity for superseding both the Commission and the Law, by the enactment of a Local Ordinance for the same general purposes.’' How the petitioners can have conceived the idea that the colonization of New Zealand was undertaken merely for the purpose of promoting the interests of those who have been termed the “ old settlers,” it is not very easy to imagine. On this subject a very different version is given by no less an authority than Her Majesty’s Colonial Secretary. In his original instructions to Captain Hobson on leaving England, the Marquis of Normanby assigns a very different reason. “ The necessity for the interposition of the government,” (says he,) “ has, however, become too evident to admit of any further inaction. The reports which have reached this office within the last few months, establish the facts that, about the commencement of the year 1838, a body of not less than 2000 British subjects had become permanent inhabitants of New Zealand : that amongst them were many persons of bad or doubtful character—convicts who had fled from our penal settlements, or seamen who had deserted their ships—and that these people, unrestrained by any law, and amenable to no tribunals, were alternately the authors and the victims of every species of crime and outrage. It further appears that extensive cessions of land have been obtained from the Natives, and that several hundred persons have recently sailed from this country to occupy and cultivate those lands. The spirit of adventure having thus been effectually roused, it can no longer be doubted that an extensive settlement of British subjects will be rapidly established in New Zealand; and that, unless restrained by necessary laws and institutions, they will repeat, unchecked,in that quarter of the globe, the same process of war and spoliation, under which uncivilized tribes have almost invariably disappeared, as often as they have been brought into the immediate vicinity of emigrants from the natives of Christendom. To mitigate, and, if possible, to avert these disasters, and to rescue the emigrants themselves from the evils of a lawless state of society, it has been resolved to adopt the most effective measures for establishingamongst them a settled form ot civil government.’'—And to prove how entirely the claims of the various

parties are left to the discretion of the local authorities, it is only necessary to quote the same despatch, in which you will find the following nassa-e. After directing that the Commissioners shall not themselves decide, but report only, t le Marquis of Normanby expressly directs that, on their report, the Governor should decide ‘ how far the claims, or any of them, may be entitled to confirmatory grants from the Crown , and on what conditions such confirmations ought to be made ” And, as if in direct contradiction of the assertion that tne acquisition _ of large tracts of land formed no part of the views of the British. Government, the Marquis of Normanby, in so many words, adds, “ contemplating the future growth and extension of a British Colony m New Zealand, Sic., * * * it will be your duty io obtain, bu fair and equal contracts with the natives, the i cession to the Crown of such waste lands as may be required for the occupation of settlers resorting to New Zealand lt is manifest, therefore that —» —. o i,-, r< i-,'3»vQn .->f ibis country was not undertaken for the benenc ur me urn oeuiers, except ft, establish order amongst them ; and that, from the first, all the measures of the Government have been taken in anticipation of its rapid and extensive colonization ; and that, with a view to that object, the Local Government has been intrusted with the most unfettered power of dealing with the subject. Consistently with the interests of the claimants, and the future prosperity of the Colonists, the provisions of the New South Wales Bill could not be carried into effect. Seeing that there are several hundred claims, arising too in every part of tiie country from North Cape to Stewart’s Island, to grant any considerable portion of the land claimed in every case would, I contend, have ruinously' retarded the successful colonization ol the country. Although they repudiate the intention of reserving to themselves the exclusive right of forming towns and villages, the government does possess, and ought to exercise, the power of prescribing the districts within which, for the interests of the country at large, settlements may, from time to time, advantageously be formed. Having sold the land, they do well in leaving to the purchasers the most profitable disposal of it; but, at the same time, they have a discretion as to the fitting periods for offering it to the public. Had the provisions of the New South Wales’Bill been carried intoeffert, and a portion of each claim been allowed, the government would have been deprived of the important power of prescribing the limits within which settlements should be formed. The evil is evident: a number of petty and dispersed settlements would have been formed, which, without attaining any 'degree of importance would, however, soon have required the appointment of several expensive Government Officers, including Police Magistrates; and thus, without really promoting the vigorous colonization of the colony, the machinerv of its government would become burdensome and expensive. We should, too, have had all the evils now admitted incident to a dispersed mode of settlement. Having no access to a church or a market, or to communication with his fellows, settlers would soon have fallen into a state of half civilization ; —deprived of the advantage of mutual assistance, and losing the wants, tastes, and habits which belong to an advanced state of society. To prevent the evils which would have arisen from allowing settlers to hold large tracts of land scattered throughout the country, and in order that this Colony might be founded on approved principles of colonization, Her Majesty’s Government expressiy declared that, “contemplating the future growth and extension of a British Colony in New Zealand, it is an object of the first importance that the alienation of the unsettled lands within its limits, should be conducted, from its commencement, upon that system of sale, of which experience has proved the wisdom, and a disregard of which has been so fatal to the prosperity of other British settlements. With a view to these interests it is obviously the same thing whether large tracts of land be acquired by the mere gift of the Government, or by purchases effected on nominal considerations from the Aborigines. On either supposition the Land Revenue must be wasted; the introduction of emigrants delayed or prevented ; and the country parcelled out amongst large land-holders, whose possessions would long remain an unprofitable, or rather, a pernicious waste.” At first sight it mav, perhaps, appear hard that the quantity of land to be granted under the new rule, should not, with the exceptions named in the Bill, form part of the land claimed. But, by this means, the advantage of the claimant, no less than that of the colony at large, wiil be promoted. Suppose a claimant of a tract of land in the valley of the Thames, or any other remote district, to have expended in its purchase £25, according to the terms of the arrangement with the New Zealand Company, he would be entitled to a grant of 100 acres. Now, waste land in a country where law and order have never been established, or in an unpeopled district, remote from any regular settlement, has scarcely any appreciable value. But, bring tho settlers together ; select a locality recommendciS

by i/iatural advantages ; and direct to it a continue stream of emigration, and the Land allotted to t'm will, at once, attain a considerable value, andecome immediately available as marketable projrty. By this means, I believe that the intere.s of the claimants may be promoted, without it the same time, endangering the future pros>erity of the Colony, and that, too, in accordanci: with the official instructions of Her Majesty’s Government. To that part of the bill which vests in the New Zealand Company, an immediate and absolute title to the Town of Wellington, and the land in its immediate neighbourhood, I cannot anticipate any opposition. Whatever may be their title to the large tracts of country claimed by them, they have received a guarantee from Her Majesty’s Government., that they shall receive four times as many acres as they have expended pounds in promoting the colonization of the country. That district having been sold by the Company, and his Excellency having ascertained, without waiting for the report of the Land Commissioners, that hy compensation to a very few counter-claimants, the district maybe granted to the Company without injustice, it is proposed to take this, the earliest and only means, of vesting in them an indefeasible title to the land in question. The New Zealand Company have rendered important service to this Colony. But for that Company, I believe, that. New .Zealand would not, at this moment, be a British Colony. By their instrumentality, four thousand British subjects have been introduced into New Zealand. In promoting the general objects of its colonization they have, I believe, expended upwards of two hundred thousand pounds, and they are now a chartered body, and recognized by the British Government as an active and effective colonizing instrument. In the language of Her Majesty’s Colonial Minister, “ It is because I think their efforts, their exertions, their future prosperity will be the means of benefiting the community at large, it seems to me desirable to give the aid of the Government, and the support of the Crown, to these objects.” I should deem myself greatly wanting in courtesy, were I to pass unnoticed the Petition presented by Mr. Clendon, from the Ladies of the Northern part of this Island. It would seem that the Government had some intuitive sense of the wishes of Her Majesty’s female subjects, for it will be found that, by the provisions of the bill, most of their wishes have been anticipated, and tnat they will be left in peaceable possession of “the scenes of their domestic duties and pleasures.”—l think, Sir, it must now be sufficiently obvious, that Her Majesty’s Government were driven, by the numerous and extravagant claims to land in this country, as the only means of its successful colonization, to disregard all titles to lands which should not be confirmed by a grant from the Crown ; and that this Council possesses competent authority to legislate on the subject; and that the plan now proposed for its final settlement, is calculated to give effect to the views of Her Majesty’s Government, I rejoice that the people of the North, no less than their countrymen of the South, have not fo gotten the ancient British privilege of petitioning for the redress of any supposed cr real grievance ; but if, on any future occasior, the Lan.l-owners of the North should cause :heir opinions to be brought under the consideratbn of this Council, I trust those opinions will te formed on a more accurate acquaintance wth the subject, and that they will be couched ii language more becoming to the Crown. Mr. Earp—lt does not appear to me that any very essenti-1 alteration is intended with regard to the mainfeatures of the bill. Much has been said respectng the petitions which have been laid before the Council, but very little that is satisfactor about t;.e bill itself. 1 can scarcely agree wiP His Excellency that the 19th clause provides or many of the objections set forth in those peitions- With regard to many claimants the claue will remain a dead letter. It provides that evf'y person who shall prove the payment of not iss than five shillings an acre, may, if he thinks fit? retain his lands; but, the fact is, verj few purchasers have paid loTorivlnaUeUlers, whom it deprives of the leeo.pense due to them, after encountering the risk of* colonising an uncivilised country, long bete any permanent colonisation was thouglv, of tv the British Government. lhe settler oi “went years ago, who paid only one shilling an ace forhis land, gave more than it was wort , since it only acqu red any real value from his labour. In a Gw years, another settler would find it more profitable to give three shillings an a're hr land in lhe vicinity of that occupied by the first comer, who would, doubt.ess have formed a small establishment, and effected man } imurovements. After,these came a third settler who gave five shillings an acre for his land, ant i fie alone could participate m the benefit wine the 19th clause was intended to confer, whils those who had paved the way tor him were alto gether excluded. Thus, the industrious colonu

who liad staked his all years ago, upon the laudable experiment of forming a settlement in Ja savage country, is placed in a much worse position than the mere land-jobber, who has only been induced to emigrate on learning the success of the first colonists. I will not rest the case on the despatch of the Marquis of Normanby, so often alluded to, but meet it on its own merits. I am not a little surprised that persons aie to be deprived of their lands without distinction, when it is admitted in the preamble of the bill that valid purchases have been made. What right, I will ask, has Government to dispossess people of lauds which they admit have been validly purchased ? All lands adjudged by the Commissioner will be found to be validly purchased, since no compensation in land will be allowed beyond four times the amount of money actually paid. At least government should give claimants the option of retaining their lands, and not compel them to resort to government towns. —If this be persisted in, the impression out of doors will be, that a mistake has been made as to the site of the seat of Government ; that it was not sufficiently central, and that their only mode of evading this difficulty is, to force a large population from all the southern districts, to the extreme north of the Island. Such a conclusion may not probably be the correct, one, but this is the natural inference. I cannot help thinking it will be generally entertained ; and I cannot agree to this principle, unless there is introduced into the clause some modification in the method of applying it. I am also rather surprised to hear honorable Members connected with the Government advocating so warmly the principle of concentration in colonisation. This is one of the first objects in the Wakefield system, aa it is called ; but it is folly to imagine that the same system is alike applicable to every country, without regard to the particular requirements of the country. Centralisation, as it is called, has utterly failed in South Australia, which has scarcely any available sea-board, and a hostile and useless native population ; but the case is very different with New Zealand, with a seaboard as great, if not gseater, than that of the United States of America, and a population of Aborigines scattered along the whole Sine, who areauxious to give us their produce in exchange for our manufactures to any extent we please ; and how could this be effected by concentrating the population in two or three localities? It is obvious that such commerce could alone be carried on by forming dispersed settlements, instead of centralising them. Settlements ought to he as rapidly as possible spread over this immense line of coast, in order to supply the natives in different parts with European manufactures, and of which they are anxious to obtain possession. There will always be a sufficient population in the towns to afford the necessary supplies to

distant settlements. The result of compelling persons resident at the trading and whaling stations‘o take their lands at Auckland, would be, that the natives on the coast would not be able to obtain European manufactures, and settlers would be deprived, at least in a great measure, of the advantages to be derived from a traffic in native produce. The Government should bear in mind, in legislating on this subject, that sometiling like one-half of our imports are consumed by the dispersed settlements amongst the natives on the coast, and thus a considerable and profitable commerce is being carried on, which, under

the system of concentration would be nearly des- - troyed. His Excellency the Governor has oh- | served that it is of the first importance to preserve ] the whaling and the trading stations ; and thus ; admitted the necessity for dispersed settlements ; i but Government is, at the same time, pressing the importance of centralisation —an evident con- i tradiction. His Excellency did not come out here to found a colony ; on the contrary he found , one al eady formed, consisting of almost innum- ; erable settlements dispersed over the islands, and i carrying on an extensive commerce with the natives. The best policy of Government to preserve these sfqAercoionv to a mere theo-^ the be«f in*-. , "* By compelling the proprietors leAI e A^ r ffiions to come to Auckland of the commerce of the colony would be gj . I am sorry to have heard the intention expressj h _ by His Excellency, of not establishing a disti pefj in the Middle Island, from which Land resident there might select their From a conversation which I had with His 0 cellency a short iime ago, 1 considered t is pom conceded. The reason given for this alteration in the Government policy is not a little amus ». It is said that it would be unfair to the reside s of Port Nicholson to establish a rival to then Port Cooper; but I can assure His Excellency and the Government that the settlers at Port cliolson will have no such fear; on the^co> the establishment of such a settlement would give J them satisfaction. Should this advantage not be I conceded, the impression on the minds o M Nicholson people must be, that lhe e^ on wl '- M a district i! not selected on the Middle Island ‘ j where Land Claimants may locate themselves

that they may be compelled to break up their extensive eoasting trade, and come to reside at Auokland, cr in its vicinity. Soffar from fearing any rival, the Government will be puzzled to make Auckland a rival to Port Nicholson. I believe the settlers at Port Nicholson would feel much obliged to the Government, it it was possible, to establish Towns in all parts of the Middle Island. As to the Schedule appended to the bill, respecting the definition of lands in and around Port Nicholson, I may observe that a large additional quantity has been selected since His Excellency’s visit. A considerable portion of Land has also been made choice of in the Wanganui district, and the same process is in operation at Nels n. It will be better if these settlements are ed in the Schedule to the present bill, rather than five' to Legislate on the subject in the next Sessi in of the Legislative Council. Two points of th bill, as it now stands, I shall continue to oppt e. I never can agree that claimants shall be dispc Bessed of the lands they now hold ; and Ido hope hat Government will establish a station on the i die Island, If these concessions be not mad hose differences and dissensions which hav unately prevailed in tho minds v( mat ~et» ai Port INictiolson, as regards certain met, i of Government, will be increased rather tha an'ayed. 1 e Governor.—lt will be seen, on reference to s, ction 23 in the bill now before the Council, that schedule D., to which the hon. member has referred, describes the land belonging to the New Zealand Company, to which they have been deemed entitled to the fee simple and inheritance. These include several portions, consisting not only of the town of Wellington itself but also the Town and Harbour Districts, besides considerable estates at Banks’s Peninsula, and in the Hutt District. Before long, Commissioners will proceed to that part of the Island, and report upon the Company’s claims at Wanganui, and also in the Nelson settlement. Should their titles be found valid, the claims of the Company will be recognized. On my late visit, it was deemed an act of justice to guarantee the Company a right to those portions of land enumerated in the schedule, to restore public credit, and give confidence in the Company’s transactions with settlers. 1 guaranteed them against any act of government, but not against native claims. To enable the Company to fulfil their pledges to the public, I assigned large tracts of land in the districts I have mentioned ; and so I will at Wanganui, and at Nelson, when the proper investigations have been made. More cannot be expected. With regard to the observations of the hon. member as to the provision in the 19th clause, it was a species of special pleading to assert that the titles to lands “ validly sold” to the old settlers, would not be recognized.

Mr. Cienrion. —Une or my objections is, tliat the districts from which land may be selected by the claimants, are not accurately defined. The Colonial Secretary.—lf we agree upon the general principle, the details may be settled in Committee. Taking the most confined view, the limits must be extremely extensive. Mr. Clendon. —How is the limit of five shillings per acre to be ascertained ? There may be disputes as to the actual amount given, The Governor. —The object of the bill is to benefit the Colony, and Government is diposed to take a liberal course in regard to all matters on

which disputes may arise with the claimants. So far as 1 can understand the present complaints of hou. members, I shall be ready to acquiesce in any remedy, for their removal. Much of the land has been purchased for goods; and, I repeat, a very liberal view will be taken on any subject of difference that may arise. } The Colonial Treasurer suggested, that the dist„ ss \on on now was out of order. The a -rations n aft * v ' might be discussed when in C mwittee. said,— i nt he rne Colonial SecretarJ'"* 7 " OUrSe was l r of the day, and which Wf T ‘° m ° ved the - L Ir. Porter, at )een sec °nded l( 'he Colonial Secretary then r very glad to find that, in the discussion of the ?ral principles of the bill, there have arisen so few points of difference. The objections of . Porter and Mr. Clendon are, for the most , met by clauses in the bill itself, or may be Mated by modifications when in Committee. 2 other lion, member, (Mr. Earp), has expnssed his opinion, that the best possible plan of cobnizing New Zealand, is by means of scattered settlements. He states, that he plan of corcentration on the Wakefield systen has been trier in South Australia, and has proed to be a failtre. I cannot agree with this assetion. The embrrassed state of that Colony can Is accounted ’ for, tom the settlers having had to stritgle against ! sevea commercial losses, arising froc over-spe- ; culaton. The New Zealand Compan have commened the colonization of New Zaland on a Msimilr principle. The system adojed by them ’Silas teen found to answer well, and hope and s »'trust* s !! eventually prove to have ?alized their

most sanguine expectations. I has been asserted that, by the bill before the Council, the early claimants will be greatly injured —that an unfair advantage is given to the recent purchaser over the old settler—the latter having paid a much smaller sum per acre than the former. By referring to the 14th clause you will observe, that the early settlers are offered a priority of choice in the districts appointed for selection, by which they will obtain land of the best quality, and in the most desirable situations,which,it is hoped, will fully counterbalance any advantage given to the recent speculator in regard to quantity. The propriety of forming a settlement at Port Cooper might be passed over without observation, as the question is not now before the Council; but the honorable member has, in my opinion, furnished an unanswerable argument against the adoption of such a course. He tells us that, at Port Nelson, a settlement is in the actual course of formation by the New Zealand Company. That enterprizing body has now a large amount of capital invested, and it would be manifestly unjust for Government to take any step which might injuriously interferp with their operations now in progress. A Government town at Port Cooper could only be formed by abstracting capital and labour from the settlements already formed by* the Company. Mr. Earp has asserted that the refusal to establish a Government settlement on the Middle Island will cause dissatisfaction to the inhabitants of Port Nicholson, but 1 will hazard an opinion that a contrary feeling will be entertained ; —the settlers there will see clearly that their interest could not be advanced by the establishment of a rival town under ihe auspices of Government; neither do I think that they will ascribe to the Government a desire to break up their coasting-trade, particularly as the lands of the greater number of the claimants proposed to be removed, are situated in the neighbourhood of Cook’s Straits, in the midst of the blocks already granted or guaranteed to the New Zealand Company by the Government. The Governor said :—With regard to the Southern Island there are not many claimants. Those who occupy whaling and trading stations, as has been pointed out in a letter which lias been read, stand in a different position to other settlers. Whaling and trading stations are like

factories, and those establishments shall be secured to the proprietors by lease, Mr. Earp, with regard to what had fallen from the Colonial Secretary, begged to explain that he had not, himself, accused the Government of any desire to promote the prosperity of Auckland,at the expense of the other settlements by the provisions of this bill, but had merely expressed an opinion that such feelings might be entertained out of doors :—For himself, he gave the Government every credit for an anxious desire to settle this question in the best way possible, but he disapproved of the plan they had adopted for effecting that object. The Colonial Secretary said—The Government had no intention to raise up any one town to the disadvantage of another. They could have only one object in view, snd that was to promote the general good of all. Any attempt of that nature must meet with the signal failure which it would so greatly merit. The bill was then read a second time, without a dissentient voice; and it was ordered to be considered in Committee on Wednesday, the second of February, to which day the Council adjourned.