LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald and Auckland Gazette, Volume I, Issue 50, 9 February 1842, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Monday, February 7ih, 1842. The consideration in Committee of the “ Land Claims’ Bill.” Present—All the Members. The minutes of the last meeting were read, and a few verbal alterations being made, were confirmed. The Governor said, befote going into committee, he thought it right to state to the members of the council, that the resolutions of non-official members were so much at va» riance with the views of the Government .that it had been determined if the first amendment in the preamble be carried, they would proceed with the Bill in committee ; but if on the contrary, it was not carried, the Government bad determined not to proceed further with thejßill ; as then, contrary to his expectations, the opposition with which their measure for the settlement of this question had met out of doors, he would withdraw it, and in its stead bring in another, based upon that of Sir George Gipps’. That which they, however, had introduced, had been framed and constructed after much labor and deliberation, in furtherance of the interests of the colonists, and should it not be carried with their concurrent feelings, they must fall back on the New South Wales Act. Even with the assent of the colonists to a measure proposed by the Government, he would not feel satisfied unless he believed that the measure was for their interests. The Government wished to promote the welfare of the colonists; aud impressed with the belief that their measure produced to the council would have this effect, they had steadily pursued its course through the council up to the present stage. In opposition to his expectations, however, a contrary effect had been exhibited out of doors:—public meetings had been held, where resolutions had been proposed and seconded by those whom he could have little supposed would have countenanced such proceedings. Having the interest of the colony at heart, he felt it would be lolly for the Government to press a Bill upon it, to which the colonists were so much averse, for they were the best judges ol their own interests. The amendments of the non-offi ial members were so diametrically opposed to the Bill, that the Government considered it quite useless to go further if the first amendment was not carried, It was not His Excellency’s wish to thrust the Bill down the throats of thd colonists.

Having concluded, the Colonial Secretary then rose and moved theorder of the day. The Governor said, before putting the question, he wishad to state, that the Attorney General’s amendment to the Bill was to give a lease of 60 years. Mr. Porter said, that notwithstanding what had fallen from His Excellency the Governor, he felt it to be his duty to put the amendment to the preamble of the Bill, and at the same time to express his regret that His Excellency had determined to go back to Sir George Gipps’ Bill; for that gen. tleman had retarded the prospect of the colonists, and done the colony a serious injury ; and by persisting in the course pursued by Sir George Gipps, (unless the Governor was prepared to take the responsibility upon himself), total ruin must accrue to this part of the colony. The Governor had already incurred heavy responsibity ; but by not passing a Bill to settle and set at rest the Land Claims immediately, he would certainly incur much heavier responsiblity. He had to urge three objections to the preamble ol the Bill; 1. It isdesireable to give to each person a portion of the land he claims.

2. It was unjust to take from an individual what had been admitted he had equitably purchased. 8, It must be partial in its operation, for while it gives to

one person it takes away from another. Any line the government might draw must naturally tend to exclude some, whilst it gives to others, perhaps less entitled to the benefit. One person (in drawing the line) would say, go further and take mein here, by which means another party must be left out. to the advantage of his next neighbour. The Hon. Gentleman said, the preamble was inconsistent witt itself. The first part stated, that it would not give to euch person his land claimed, and yet the latter part went as far as to say that claimants shall have their lands, which was based upon the priuciple of the New Zealand Company’s claims, and that principle laid down, that the particular land claimed shall be given to each claimant. If it were left to the government to decide where each claimant should select his land, from counties thrown open for selection, it would be placing an undue power in their hands, and would, in the execution of the plan, operate as an annoyance to them, because it would prove any thing but pleasing to themselves,or in all likelihood, satisfactory to the claimants. His Excellency distinctly admitted that much responsibility fell upon the government. His wish was to give to the people the lands they are fairly entitled to. Mr. Porter then moved that the preamble be amended. Mr. Earp then rose to second Mr. Porter’s motion, He must regret that in one point he did not coincide with his Hon. friend, viz. ia his expressions of regret that his Excellency the Governor had threatened to withdraw the Bill iu consequence of the amendments of the non-official members being directly opposed to the principle of the Bill. On the contraiy, he (Mr. Earp) congratulated His Excellency and the colonists also, upon the probable rejection of the Bill, He had taken a solemn oath before that Council, to advise His Excellency conscientiously, and to the bestof his judgment, and he npw advised him, if he had any regard to the welfare of this important colony, or for his own reputation, without hesitatiob, to withdraw that Bill and substitute for it another more in accordance with the feelings and interests of the colonists. It was generally understood by the land claimants that a threat was held out by government, that they would return io Sir George Gipps’ Bill, and with these modifications, which her Majesty’s government had recommended this Bill to his Excellency’s notice, he saw no objection ter-Su George Gipps’ Bill. But with regard to the threat of having only one Commissioner, as contemplated by that Bill, it was impossible to fall back upon that, as Sir George Gipps’ Bill was not at that moment law, having heen disallowed by her Majesty’s government, for the purpose of enabling His Excelency to introduce a measure of his own. The Governor said, that by his instructions from Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for the Colonies he could allow the New South Wales Act to remain law if he chose. Mr. Earp resumed, that whether Sir George Gipps’bill was law or not, we have no reason why falling back upon that measure should be the only alternative, when the wisdom an I foresight of the Home Government had in a dispatch to His Excellency provided a better than either, a measure which, as far as his observations had gone, and he had shown it to many gentlemen of intelligence and experience, was of that nature, that the colonists, to use a common phrase, would “jump at it.” We alluded to the measure recommended to His Excellency by Lord John Russell, stating that it was absolutely necessary Ist that a commission should ascertain and that the law should determine what lands were private and what were public property, and 2ndly that all lands held by private persons and not actually in cultivation should be subjected to an annual tax, the nonpayment of which should be followed by the confiscation or seisureol the land, which measure His Lordship follows up by observing,—“That until this be done there can be no reasonable prospect of the Colony making any advance in agriculture, wealth and sound internal polity,” It was impossible to conceive a stronger recommendation of a wise and just measure. At home it was clearly understood that purchases from the Natives were valid purchases, to the extent that the commissioner might adjudge. He (Mr. Earp) had perused the dispatches carefully and he perceived one inculcation in all of them, viz. to consider the lands purchased from the Natives fairly and equitably, as valid purchases, and not to take away those lands and give others in lieu of them; but in all cases to confirm the Titles of those already acquired. The Governor.—l perfectly agree with the Honourable Member, it is the object of the Government to confirm the titles to land.

Mr. Earp resumed.—That was what we contended for; but this unjust Bill now before them was framed for the purpose of taking away the lands at present held by claimants, and substituting others for them, a measure which, as he had befoie said, the Home Government had never contemplated, nor would sanction. He once more congratulated the Colony upon the chance of being liberated from this obnoxious and inconsiderated measure, and he sincerely hoped and trusted that the Government would introduce such another measure, as would set at rest the fears of the settlers, and do away with that distrust of Government Bills, which, he was sorry to say, this bill had made but too prevalent. The Governor said, he merely offered the colonists land instead of what they now held, in order to settle the question. Mr. Earp continued—His Excellency must see that the whole of the colonists were against the principle of the Bill before the Council; he therefore wished that such a Bill might be introduced instead of this, as would not only satisfy the justice of the case here, but also be approved by the British Government hereafter. Any other Bill, founded upon any other principle, would only be followed up by petition after petition from all parts of the colony to the Home Government, which could not fail to be a constant source of annoyance to this Government, and would altogether prevent that good feeling which ought to exist between them and the colonies under their charge. It was then put to the Council by His Excellency, that “ the amendment do stand part of the preamble,” on a division the numbers were Ayes —Mr. Earp, Mr. Porter; Mr. Clendon. Noes —His Excellency the Governor. The Colonial siecretary, The Attorney-General, The Colonial Treasurer. His Excellency then said that the preamble was carried in their favour, but as the three Honorable Gentlemen who were not members of the Executive Council had voted against the Government he should not proceed with the Bill. The Honorable the Colonial Secretary then Jmoved —That the further consideration of the Bill be adjourned sine die. Mr. Earp most cordially seconded the amendment, and the motion was carried unanimously. Mr. Harp briefly congratulated His Excellency upon the withdrawal of the Bill. A desultory conversation arose in which the Attorney General remarked, that it was wise in the Government not to press the measure, as it was evident it had already gained unpopularity by it. He would however say that from first to last the Government conceived that they were creating a boon to the Colonists by introducing this Bill. The Honorable gentleman claimed a large share in producing the Bill, for he had been most engaged in constructing it. He could however believe that there would be many who would find themselves

deficient, and discover, when too late, that they had refused that which was intended todo them asubslantial good. The A ttorney General said, that we would have cause to regret the non-passing of this Bill into a law, and said that no other Bill would be of any good; He begged to say that before the Session was over that something would be done satisfactorily to the Colonists. Mr. Porter—The Attorney General had thrown out a kind of threat in his remarks, The Attorney General thought that by opposing the measure, the Government had brought forward, they lost sight of heir own interests. Mr. Porter thought that previous to disposing of the question before the Council, an answer should have been made to their argument, it appeared to him a very great difficulty presented itself in drawing the line upon which he had remarked in a previous part of the discussion. '1 he Colonial Secretary—TheAttomeyGeneral had stated it would be impolitic in the Governmont to press this Bill against the voice and feelings of the Colonists. With respect, to the threat of the Government of reverting to Sir George Gipps’s Bill, it was the law of the land, therefore could of course remain as it stood with such modifications as in accordance with orders from the Secretary of State, they might make. He could not believe that the non-official members of this Council attributed to the official members that which was attributed to them out of doors, though that which is to be seen in print would lead the public to suppose that Government had concocted a job. It was stated at a public meeting that this job had been unravelled by the non-official members. He would not admit that the Government had lent themselves to any thing so despicable. It was stated that the Attorney General and the hon. gentleman himself had concocted a measure which no one save themselves could comprehend, and thus'filch from the colonists their lands. The idea had gone forward to the public, and he now gave Mr, Earp and Mr. Porter an opportunity of contradicting the statement. The Government had proposed this Bill as a boon to the Colonists, and the question was, whether they would accept or reject it. Mr. Porter had never accused the Attorney-General of any trick. He himself had not taken any part in the proceedings out of doors. The Attorney-General, on a former day, had stated to him. that the lease he proposed was availeble property for sale, or otherwise disposing of it, but on the following day, to his astonishment, he stated in council, that the object in making a leass was to prevent the sale of lands granted. The Governor —Any man having a lease for 60 years could either release it or sell it, the same as any other property held under similar tenure. Mr. Porter—The meaning of the Attorney General was to prevent people selling, Mr. Earp said, with reference to what had fallen from the Colonial Secretary respecting attributing motives out ot doors to certain members of the Government. He was not greatly surprised if opinions unfavourable to them had got abroad, especially after so many persons as were in the habit of attending that Council Chamber had heard the extraordinary explanations of the Honorable the Attorney-General at the previous sitting. For liis own part he always gave vent to his feelings, and opinions, and cared very little who might be pleased or displeased with them so long as they were right in his own estimation. The Attorney-General’s explanations of the Leasing system” were certainly not of a character to raise official gentlemen in the public estimation; for it was generally understood, and it was also the impression of liis honorable colleagues, that the effect cf the Lease was to place the colonists in a worse condition than before. If this was the opinion to which the honorable gentleman alluded to, he (Mr. Earp) would at once tell him that he had been instrumental in disseminating this opinion pretty extensively. What could they expect from the course they had pursued! They had admitted that the whole colony, from one end of it to the ofb&r was against them, but yet they had persisted in their Bill fi t they saw the impossibility of passing it. But he (Mr. jfiarp) could tell the honorable the Colonial Secretary, that if there were any tiling in his policy that he did not wish heard, he should speak in a lower tone when out of doors, for some of the things complained of arose from some expressions of his which had been overheard. The Colonial Secretary was not aware that we had spoken the words attributed to him ; lie could not be answerable for what circulated by idle persons; he was aware there weru many things attributed to him which he had never spoken, among which was something that he should have said of Capt. Clayton, a gentleman to whom he bad never spoken. Mr. Earp said, that it was not for him to say what had or had not been spoken ; he merely made the remark to put tne Hon. Gentleman on his guard in future. The Governor thought he could set the matter right,— When the Attorney-General had been asked the question, he gave his answer like a lawyer. Does this give value to land ? He said, certainly not. His Excellency instanced a case in the buying or selling a lease —the party buying would desire tbe same interest as the party selling —lt was a question of law more thkn any thing else. The object of the bill was concentration. The Attorney-General said, that the lease would be valuable for agiicultura! pursuits. If the parties had titles in lee simple, they could then make townships; the leasehold would not be valuable for this purpose. Mr. Porter was of opinion, that a long lease was as good as a fee simple, The Governor.—The Bill was originally framed upon that principle, until the addresses mere received from Kororaritta. If grants were made in fee simple, in accordance with the opinions of the Attorney-General, towns would rise up in every direction, when probably the council would be called upon to tax uncultivated lands, Mr. Earp said, every one would agree to that. The Governor did not think so. Mr. Earp.—The effect of Lord John Russell’s measure, which he had just introduced to the consideration of the council, would be the introduction of emigrants into the colony at a much more rapid rate, than His Excellency could ever hope to do without it. If a man possessed a large quantity of land, the greater part of which was uncultivated, and for which uncultivated land he had to pay a tax, he would immediately endeavour in England, or the adjacent colonies, to sell portions of his land to people who would settle upon and cultivate it; this would answer his purpose, for in the first place he would thus diminish the amount of his annual tax, and in the second, he would derive capital from the sale of his land. His Excellency thought that the fraud that would be practised by such a measure would be inconceivable, and would require all the vigtlence of the Government to prevent it. Mr. Porter said, that many had stated that they would prefer that mode to any o her. The Colonial Treasurer said, no bill of that description could be carried out in this colony, for there would be nothing but grumbling and growling until a fresh and more wholesome one was substituted for it. The Council then adjourned.