VOTING CHALLENGED.

New Zealand Herald, Volume LXIX, Issue 21165, 23 April 1932, Page 13

VOTING CHALLENGED.

CLOSENESS OF DIVISION.

IRREGULARITIES ALLEGED. MAORI MEMBER EXPLAINS. ACCUSATIONS FROM LABOUR. [BY TET-EGRATH.—SPECIAL REPORTER. ] WELLINGTON, Fridny. As ,1 sequel to :he Government's narrow escape from defeat by two votes, charges of voting irregularities were made by the Labour Party in tho House of Representatives early this morning, and for an hour the Chamber rang with tho sound of contesting voices. The whole exciting incident was duplicated on the next division, and although the Government's margin of victory was then greater Labour sought to ob:ain the Speaker's ruling. However, thai, proposal was defeated.

The challenging of votes is, of course, most unusual in New Zealand Parliamentary history and has no recent pro cedent.

Old-age pensions was the issue at stake. The clause in the National Expenditure Adjustment Bill dealing with that question is divided into four sub-clauses, and the Labour Party had moved successive amendments to strike out each sub-clause. The first sub-clause actually fixed the reduction in pension from £45 10s to £4O 19s, and was retained only by 35 votes to 33. How the Members Voted. The division list was later altered to increase each vote by one. The division list was:— For the Amendment (34). Armstrong. McCombs. Atmore. Mclveen. Barnard. Mason. Black. Munro. Oarr. Nash. J. A. Chapman. Nash, W. Coleman. O'Brien. Connolly. Parry. Fraser. Richards. Hardest. R ushworth. Harris. Samuel. Holland, H. E. Schramm. Howard. Semple. Jones. Stallworthy. Jordan. Sullivan. Langstone. Sykes. Lee. right. Against (36). Ansell. Holland, H. Bitchener. Jull. Bodkin. Kyle. Broadfoot. Linklater. Burnett. Lye. Campbell McDougall. Clinkard. McLeod. Coates. McSkimming. Cobbe. Macmillan. I)e la Perrelle. Makitanara. Dickie. Ngata." Endean. poison. field Piansom. Forbes. Reid. Hamilton. Stuart. Hawke. Te Tomo. Healy. Williams. Henare. Young. Pairs. —For the f.mendment: Savage, Wilkinson. Against: Murdoch, Stewart. Absent. —J. N. Massey, W. W. Massey, Macpherson, Yeitch. There was enthusiastic hand-clapping from the Labour benches when the result was announced, and above the applause Mr. R. McKeen (Labour— Wellington South) exclaimed, "Another tTiree and outski." Point of Order Raised.

A point of ordf*r was raised by Mr. J. McCombs (Labour— Lyttelton). "During the taking of the vote a gross irregularity, expressly forbidden by the Standing Orders, was committed," he alleged. "Mr. E. F. Healy (Government —Wairau) came into the Chamber and asked Mr. T. Makitanara (Southern Maori) to vote in the ayes' lobby. A member is not allowed to be interfered with, and I understand Mr. Makita lara had previously arranged with the tslier on our behalf to vote in the noes' lobby. Mr. Healy said Mr. Makitanara had not been well and had asked him (Mr. Healy) to vote for him. Mr. R. Semple Labour—Wellington East) : You ought to be ashamed of yourself. . .

Mr. Healy was proceeding to elaborate his explanation when Mr. Semple again interjected, "You miserable hound! Mr. W. Nash (Labour—Hutt) said he had seen* Mr. Healy go to Mr. Makitanara and ask the latter to come and vote. Mr. Makitanr.ra had said he wanted to vote for the pensions.

There were loud cries of "Scandal, scandal," from the Labour benches, and some seconds elapsed before the Chairman of Committees, Mi S. G. Smith, could restore order. "T must ask mem bers to restrain themselves," v-alled Mr Smith sternly. "I siould be. allowed to hear what members have to say." Another "Version Given.

"I saw Mr. Healy go to Mr. Makitanara and say, 'Come and vote,' " said Mr. W. Nash. "M\ Makitanara said. 'I want to vote for pensions,' and pointed to the noes'' lobby, but Mr. Healy took Mr. Makitanara to the other lobby." Mr. J. A. Nash (Government —Palmerston) gave his version of the incident. "I want to say I voted with the noes,' he said. "I heard Mr. Healy say to Makitanara, 'You must come and vote." Mr. Makitanara said, Is that so?' Healy said, 'Yes, everyone must vote/ Mr. "Healy never induced Mr. Makitanara to vote either way. "I am sorry this occurred," said Mr Makitanara, in stating his case to the House. "I voted for the ayes and I am making no bones about it. I don't want to be coerced about it. T am suffering from rheumatism and I instructed Mr. Healy every time we had got to vote to record my vote as wis richt and proper Mr. Sullivan had sa d that in the next vote we woud all lave to record our votes. Shortly aftei that Mr. Healv came to me." The Chairman: Hud your name been recorded in previous divisions by the consent of (he tellers? Mr. Makitanara: Oh, yes, that, had been done in two or three divisions. Mr. 11. Atmore (Independent--Nelson) said it, was perfectly true that Mr. Healy had said to Mr. Makitanara, "Come and vote over here.' Everyone in the Lobbies. Mr. D. G. Sullivan (Labour—Avon) said he had indicated to the Government Whip that when ihe main clause on the old-age pensions was reached, he was going to ask that everyone should go into the lobbies. He "had isked whether tho Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition would also go into the lobbies and they had agreed. He knew that Mr. Makitanara had not been going into the lobbies and he had told Mr. Makitanara that everyone would have to go into the lobbies and vote on I hat particular clause. The Chairman said it appeared to him that if one member had induced another to vote against his conviction, that was grossly improper. Permission had been given for a member to have his vote refolded, even although he did not go into the lobbies. An assurance had been given that the member concerned had cast his vote as he had des red, and Mr. Healy had given an assurance that he had only asked the member (o go into the lobby to vote. In the circumstances, Mr. Smith felt he could only accept the assurances given.

The first incident then ended

In accordance with the closure motion previously carried, the House proceeded immediately to a division on the second sub-clause, which governed the amount that might bo earned by an old-age pensioner. The clause was retained by 40 votes to 29.

A point of order was raised by Mr. F. Langstone (Labour —Waimarino). He said that Mr. It. A. Wright (Government — Wellington Suburbs) and Mr. A. J. Stallworthy (Government/ —Eden) had been in tho noes lobby. They had voted with the noes on tho previous division and it was evident that they proposed to do so again, but Mr. J. A. Nash had come over to tho noes lobby and had taken the two members round to tho other lobby. Mr. Stallworthy: Don't be silly. Mr. Langstone submitted that tho question of influencing votes arose. Mr. J. O'Brien (Labour —Westland) said lie wanted to assert definitely that he had heard Mr. J. A. Nash call out to Mr. Wright. Mr. Semple : Dirty work.

Mr. O'Brien: I heard him call Mr. Wright to him and they went to the ayes lobby. I think Mr. J. A. Nash's action mount ho was treating tho Committee with contempt. I move that we call in tho Speaker to get his ruling. This matter is getting too serious. Tho Chairman: You cannot do that. The Chairman has not yot given any decision. "I think we ought to clear up this business, and see what rules we are playing tho game under," declared Mr. W. E. Parry (Labour —Auckland Central). Mr. Langstone said ho heard Mr. J. A. Nash say, "Come over to this lobby." Mr. J. A. Nash: No, he did not say that. Mr. Parry: Well ho called them. I want to say a Whip has no right to interfere, not even to call them. Misconception as to Vote. Mr. J. A. Nash said there had been some misconceptions as to what the vote was on (Labour calls of "Oh, Oh"). "Mr. Langstone did not say that I asked members to vote in the other lobby," said Mr. J. A. Nash. "He said he heard me call." Mr. Wright: That is quite right. Mr. J. A. Nash: I told him this was a motion to vote against the reduction in tho earning power of old ago pensioners. Mr. 11. T. Armstrong (Labour —Christchurch East) : Hadn't ho enough brains to know that? Mr. J. A. Nash : I told him I was voting against the noes and Mr. Stallworthy also came over to the other lobby. "No one can influence my vote," declared Mr. Wright. "Mr. J. A. Nash has correctly stated the position. He used no influence>. He did discuss the issue involved. I thought he was in the lobby to vote against the clause." Mr. J. A. Nash: No. no. Mr. Stallworthy said he was in the noes lobby when the division bells rang. He had no intention of staying thero. Mr. ,T. A. Nash did not call to him, but to Mr. Wright. "I walked down the lobby to inquire exactly what the division was about," added Mr. Stallworthy. "When I returned, I heard Mr. W. J. Jordan (Labour—Manukau) say, 'Oh, the member for Eden. We will stick it into him.' " There was a chorus of "Ah, ahs, from the Government benches. Concluding, Mr. Stallworthy said, "It is a deliberate intention on the part of tho Labour Party to do a dirty trick." Remark Withdrawn. The Chairman: Order, order! At the request of the chairman, Mr. Stallworthy retracted, but added, "I shall content myself with thinking what I am not allowed to say." By way of personal explanation, Mr. J. A. Nash said he had returned to the Chamber before the doors were locked. Mr. Jordan, speaking with exceptional warmth, declared, "What the member for Eden said is untrue. 'I will stick it into him' is not in my vocabulary. 1 am surprised at the member for Eden." Mr. I'. Fraser (Labour— Wellington Central) said it was clear that Mr. J. A. Nash admitted entering the noes lobby and that he had entered it to explain to Mr. Wright why he himself was reversing his vote. Mr. J. A. Nash: But th e vote was not being taken. Mr. Fraser: When the fate of Governments had been in tho balance before, I have seen members running out of the House. The former member for Patea, Mr. J. R. Corrigan, was the man. There were murmured comments from the Government benches of "typical" and "an absent man."

"I have said the same thing a dozen times in Mr. Corrigan's presence," retorted Mr. Fraser. "Such happenings are open to the gravest suspicion. Whether the doors were locked or not, it was a serious breach. The sooner the Speaker's ruling " The Chairman: Order, order! Mr. Carr's Explanation.

Mr. McKeen said the words used by Mr. Jordan in respect to Mr. Stallworthy were, "I am surprised at him." Mr. C. L. Carr (Labour —Timaru) said Mr. Wright and Mr. Stallworthy, who were in the noes lobby, had asked him what the. division was about, "I said it was on the sub-clause dealing with the amount a pensioner could earn apart from pension," said Mr. Carr. "Neither of them made a move, but inclined their heads, and to my inind they were quite prepared to stay in that lobby. Then Mr. Nash entered the lobby and it is quite apparent what transpired."

"A vote is being taken after the Chairman lias put. the question and has nothing to do with the locking of doors," contended Mr. McCombs. "Mr. »J. A. Nash said definitely and clearly that he went to the two members and made certain statements to them that the vote dealt with the total sum a pensioner might earn, and he said he was going to vote with the ayes. That was influencing their votes and is highly disorderly." In giving his decision, the Chairman said Mr. .7. A. Nash had stated that the conversation took place before the locking of doors. Mr. Wright and Mr. Stallworthy had said they were not influenced by anything Mr. Nash had said, lie accordingly ruled that no irregularity had taken place. Mr. O'Brien said the question was so grave that the Speaker's ruling should be obtained. Accordingly he moved that progress should be reported. The motion was lost by 44 votes to 24.

Two further sub-clauses dealing with aspects of the subject were also lost, the voting being 43 to 29 and 40 to 31. The whole clause was retained by 38 votes to 34.