SOLDIERS GRATUITIES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume LVI, Issue 17274, 25 September 1919, Page 8

SOLDIERS GRATUITIES.

DEBATE IN THE HOUBE.

AN AMENDMENT MOVED.

ACTION BY SIR J. WARD.

LONG DISCUSSION FOLLOWS.

SOLDIER MINISTER SATISFIED [BY TELEGRAPH. —PRESS ASSOCIATION.] WELLINGTON, Wednesday. The Government's proposals in regard to gratuities for soldiers came up for discus- , sion again in the House of Representatives , to-day, when the debate was resumed. A 1 lengthy discussion was the result of an ' amendment moved by the Leader of the . Opposition, Sir Joseph Ward, that the ' gratuity scheme be referred back to the Government for further consideration. i At the opening of the proceedings the i Minister for Defence, Sir James Allen, j read tables giving a comparison between ; the gratuities granted by Canada and those , proposed in New Zealand, showing that I New Zealand was more liberal in the treatment of her soldiers than the sister , Dominion.

The Prime Minister, Mr. W. F. Massey, stated that it was the intention of the Government to have 25,000 copies of the paper printed and circulated throughout the Dominion, so that the people might know what had been done in the way of assistance to soldiers. Sir Joseph Ward sard the statement just read went to prove the reasonableness of the request he had made for a delay in the discussion, because on one point— treatment of sick men the Minister himself had stated that he wanted still further time to consider it, and if the Minister required further time, how much more did members need it? Position of Wounded Men. He found fault with the proposed treatment of wounded men in the matter of gratuities. The man who came back to New Zealand and remained in hospital should not be treated less favourably than the man who remained in England. He also objected to the method of computing the value of the gratuity by first taking into account the allowances and privileges given to soldiers. It was most unfair to give with one hand and take away with the other. Continuing, Sir Joseph said he had no wish to obstruct the Government in this matter, but he felt bound to suggest that there ought to have been a difference made in favour of married men. The proposals' made for married men were inadequate, and what about the seamen who had been engaged in the war, and gone on mine-sweepers or in the mercantile marine? They certainly should be included. Provision for Nurses. Then he could not see any indication that nurses were included. Sir James Allen : Nurses are all included. They are members of the Expeditionary Force. But V.A.D.'s are not included. Sir Joseph Ward thought they should have been. There were men who went out to fight, and were wounded or fell sick. They came back, but after a time their health was restored, and they enlisted again. There appeared to be no provision for counting the time between the enlistments.

Sir James Allen said there was provision for a minimum of 18 months. Sir Joseph Ward said no one understood that to be so, but it wculd be satisfactory if points such as this were cleared up as they went along. Then there were the men who had sold their farms or businesses. No allowance seemed to be made for that sacrifice. It might cost £500,000, but whatever the cost the right thing should be done. He wished to see this matter of gratuities cleared of all complications.

Two Shillings Advocated. He therefore thought the soldiers should get 2s per day. He had previously expressed this opinion to some of "those associated with him. Hon. Members : Why did vou not say so to the National Government? \ Sir Joseph Ward : There was no opportunity of doing so. Sir James Allen: It was. discussed by the > National Government. Sir Joseph Ward : But not settled. Sir James Allen : Yes, and settled ; and I stated so in the House. Sir Joseph Ward: If the hon. gentleman will tax hie memory he will remember he, came to me and told me he had ; made a statement with the authority of the Prime Minister, but I was not co ! sulted. Before sitting down, Sir Joseph Ward moved that the. gratuity scheme be referred back to the Government for further consideration. Greater Consideration Urged. The Hon. W. D. S. Mac Donald (Bay of Plenty) seconded the amendment He «ud he did not desire to embarass the Government, and he certainly did not approve of soldiers or others who sought to demand excessive allowances from the Government at the "bayonet's point." J lie Hon. J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) said it was not a question of what New Zealand was doing in comparison with other countries, but what was our duty Mr Downie Stewart (Dunedin West) said he thought the Minister's comparison with other countries was fair, and the proposals made were in excess of what the Returned Soldiers' Association had suggested. So far as it was possible to get an expression of opinion, he believed the association was prepared to accept the proposals. Mr H. E. Holland (Grey), said the Labour Party would view this matter from the point of view of the working men .Ninety per cent, of the soldiers were working men, and these men were being offered the stone of Is 6d per dav, instead of the bread of 4s per day. The debate was proceeding when the House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. When the House resumed at 7.30 p m Mr. C. H. Poole (Auckland West) continued the debate. He said the fact that the Minister was not fully conversant with the effect of all his proposals was good reason why they should be referred back for further consideration. He made a strong appeal for the recognition of the men of the mercantile marine 'in connection with any scheme of gratuities. Soldier Minister's Views. The Hbn. J. B. Hine (Stratford) agreed with the last speaker as to the splendid service rendered by the mercantile marine, but this was not the place in which to recognise that service. There were shipping companies in the Dominion and they were the ones who should make this provision. As to the amendment, he had a shrewd suspicion that if the Government had brought down 2s, the Leader of the Opposition would have proposed 2s 6d If the Government had proposed 2s 6d he would have advocated 3s, and so ' on because he was determined to 0 one better.

Personally he thought the Minister had fairly met all the claims. The scheme before the House was better than the scheme formerly proposed by the National Government, of which the Liberals were members. He strongly favoured a flat rate, because officers were we'd paid for their services in the forces.

He' rebuked the Labour Partv, " The immaculate five," for demanding better treatment for soldiers when thev did their best to prevent any soldier from going to the front. Theee men called out for greater contributions from accumulated wealth, but he could assure them that accumulated wealth would have to make a proper tribute to the country. . liev had taxing powers, and it would be the duty of the Government to see that wealth paid its proper share.

He personally was well satisfied with the gratuity. He was not going to say the .proposals of the Government were all the country could afford, but they must not forget this was not the last they would have to do for the soldier, for there was great work yet to be done in the matter of repatriation. He appealed to soldiers not to waste the gratuity, but to use it wisely and economically. .

Sir John Findlay (Hawke's Bay) said the Government should withdraw the proposals.

Mr. Massey deprecated any attempt to; make this a party question. j Members of the Opposition: We do not j want to make it a party question. I Mr. Massey said he was glad to have j that assurance, because he was anxious to do the right thing. At the same time j he recognised we were faced with a serious financial position. He always be- ■ lieved that we would not get through >_e ] war under £100,000,000. He now ks*w it would cost more than that, and that aspect had to be taken into consideration. Boer War Gratuity Recalled. Continuing Mr. Massey compared the gratuity paid to soldiers after the Boer war by the Liberal Government, when privates got £5, with the proposals of nis Government. Something had been said about the mercantile marine. He recognised the great value of that service, and he reminded the House that since June, 1916, _ a special war bonus was paid by shipping companies to men crossing the war-zone. At the same time he recognised the Dominion had some responsibility to the men on the ships used as transports prior to their being taken over by the Imperial authorities, and it would be the duty of the Government to consider what that responsibility was. He would find out what was being done in Britain, out he certainly did not agree to a gratuity for officers unless it was also given to the men. " A Party Amendment." Regarding the amendment, he could not help thinking it was a party move. That was the view the majority of the public would take of it. It was" for the public to judge of what the Government had done. If they were not satisfied chey had their remedy at the polls. Sis. Joseph Ward, by way of personal explmiation, denied he had- "been actuated by a spirit of party. His course was perfectly constitutional and nothing would deter him from doing his constitutional duty. Auckland Members' Views. Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemafi) deprecated the inequalities in the pension system. He approved of the flat rate. The same principle should prevail in our pension system. So far as gratuities were concerned, he thought the men were entitled to 3s per day, because that amount had been stopped out of their pay when they went away to fight. This could just as easily be given as the Is 6d proposed by the Government. The Hon. A. M. Myers (Auckland East) ad-pitted it was most difficult to decide whether the amount of the gratuity should be Is 6d or 2s, but he thought that when the country did anything in the matter it should do it handsomely. He thought a criterion of what should be paid was the ability of the country to pay. In this connection he quoted the deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks as evidence of the country's prosperity, to say nothing of some £60,000,000 of war loans raised in the country and a surplus of £15,500,000 in revenue which had accumulated during the past few years. As Acting-Minister for Finance for some years, he said the country could afford to do better for the soldiers than the Government proposed. If extra taxation was necessary, then that taxation must be put on the shoulders of those best able to bear it. He appealed to the Prime Minister not to regard Sir Joseph Ward's motion as a party move. The Hon. W. H. Hemes (Tauranga) said be had received many telegrams from constituents on the subject of the gratuities, every one of them favourable to the proposals. He was, therefore, going to support the Government. (Left sitting.) APPROVAL AT GISBORNE. EXTREMIST ACTION CONDEMNED. [BY TELEGRAPH. —PRESS ASSOCIATION.] GISBORNE, "Wednesday. After an exhaustive canvassing of members, the (executive of the Returned Soldiers' Association has passed a resolution expressing unanimous approval of the Government gratuity scheme, and thoroughly deprecating the action of the extremist section of Wellington members.