DEBATE IN PARLIAMENT

New Zealand Herald, Volume LIV, Issue 16656, 28 September 1917, Page 6

DEBATE IN PARLIAMENT

MEMBERS NOT SATISFIED. GOVERNMENT'S ATTITUDE. "LIMIT OF FINANCE REACHED." [BT TELEOHAPII.— CORRESPONDENT.] WELLINGTON. Thursday. The War Pensions Amendment Bill was considered in Committeo in the House of Representatives to-night. Mr. L. M. Isitt (Christ-church North) said it was not right that a New Zealander or his dependants should be penalised because he happened to be in Britain when war broke out and enlisted there. Mr. R. A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs) said that men requiring financial assistance should be assured of a certain amount, leaving it to the discretion of the Financial Assistance Board to grant 'more. Regarding the 'question of allowances they had to take into consideration what tho country could stand. - He asked for consideration for tho motor-patrol men. Mr. J. V. Brown (Napier) said the Government did not seem to rise to the occasion. Tho question was not what the Government wanted to do, but what the country wanted to do. If the Government would not do it tho country would demand a change of Government. The whole of the provisions in the Bill should bo made retrospective. Dr. A. K. Newman (Wellington East) urged tho Government to increase the allowances. It was impossible, he said, for a woman to carry on and bring up children decently on the suggested allowance with present decreasing purchasing value of the sovereign. The country was quite prepared to find the money, and there was no necessity for the Government v to be miserly. He considered that it was only tho Ministers who stood in the way of an increased pension. Mr. J. McCombs (Lvttelton) characterised the financial assistance proposals as illusory. It was unfair to loavo Second Division mon to the mercy of tho Financial Assistance Board. Increases Advocated. Mr. C. J. Parr (Eden) said that if it wero necessary, as it apparently was, to send the married men to tho front those left behind must do their best to assist I them. Tho sending away of the married mon would seriously affect tho country's j industries, and consequently its revenue, so j there was a problem which ever way one I looked at it. He commended some of the | Government's proposals, but considered ' that the. allowance for overy child should be raised to 10s. There should be somo court of appeal to review decisions of the ! Pensions Board. The soldier at the front required at least three or four shillings | a day to provide for his wants. If the I finances of the country permitted it, he j would urge an increase of tho soldier's I pay to bs a day, thus allowing him to | allot 3s to his wife. Mr. H. Poland (Obinomuri) took exception to the pension of £2 per week for totally incapacitated men. Despite the fact that the Second Division League approved it, the least the country could give to these men was £3 a week, ho said, and they should not have to go before a board for it. Ho condemned tho allowance of 7s 6d a week to children. The whole position of the wives and children of men going to tho front was not creditable to ! the country, and nothing in the financial j position of the country put forward by i the Primo Minister and Minister for Finance could prove that the country could not afford an extra amount. The Government gave a bonus' of £7 10s to a single girl in the Civil Sorvice, and yet refused to adequately assist the wives and children of men going to the front. Minister's Statement.

Sir James Allen suggested, in respect, of remarks made by him to the Second Division League, that the schedules should be put through because they could not bo altered now If the Bill were put through quickly, the alteration would bo a matter for the Government. New Zealanders joining the special New Zealand force in England at the outbreak of the war became part of the Dominion's forces, but it was not considered desirable to supplement the pay and allowances of men who left New Zealand for England to join the British forces. Special provision was mado in the Bill for men joining the motorboat patrol so far as pensions woro concerned. The right of these men to apply for financial assistance was under consideration, and would be submitted to Cabinet this week-end. Members did not realise how much was being done for soldiers by the Financial Assistance Board. It was granting assistance up to £60,000 a year. Life insurance premiums taken out before the war, unless for very large amounts, were being paid for by tho Government in full. It also paid the premiums on some of,tho policies taken out after the outbreak of war, and the loading and assistance was even being granted to those taking out policies now. A soldier could take out an insurance policy up to a limited amount. In reply to a member the Minister stated that the limit at present was about £300. _ Continuing, the Minister said that section 15, paragraph 2, of the Bill, made provision in regard to pensions for dependants of soldiers who committed suicide, provided the suicide was not due to the man's negligence or misconduct. Provision was also made for widowed mothers. Regarding the question of financial assistance, it was considered necessary to increase the "maximum to £3, as the Second Division men would probably have more rent and insurance to pay. In regard to the children's allowances of 7s 6d per week, he wished to remind members that the Government not only provided for the children, but also provided for tho wife and tho man, whilst a widow with a child received an extra 10s per : week. There was ample provision already for allowing pensions to "iris over 16 years of age, and, in fact, pensions had been allowed to strong, healthy boys over 16 years. He did not Agree that a Board of Appeal in regard to pensions was necessary. It would only lead to disgruntled persons making claims without producing further evidence. He thought the Pensions Board had dune excellent' work, and had gone as far as it possibly could in granting pensions. He did not object to j placing a soldier representative on tho board. Information was constantly coming to him warning him not to allow the men at tho front to have too much money to spend, as they wasted it unnecessarily. There was no demand at any rate for an Increase of pay. " Getting Round Questions." Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) asked if snicido was misconduct. What he did not like about the Minister for Defence was his art in getting round a question without answering it. Was tho married man a|t the front goine to bo left with two shillings a day? Most of them, the Minister would find, would make their allotment 1 four shillings a day. and allow thtfhselvds one. If the Prime Minister would put on the table of the House '.the regulation of the allowances to be granted the married men, and give members an opportunity ol discussing them so thait it might be found j necessary to increase them, he would find the debate end very Happily. What members were afraid of was that if they let the'regulations get into the hands of the Department to grasp there would be no safety whatever. The Prime Minister said he considered i that the Minister for Defence had answered the questions in a fair and satisfactory manner. Regarding the question of allowance?, there was no difference of opinion between him and the Minister for Defence. He admitted that the regulations were just as important as the pensions, and it was the duty of the Government 'to give the House an opportunity of discussing them.

When Sir James Allen was ready to lay the regulations on the table hi promised the House that it would have the opportunity of discussing them. The Chairman, Mr. A. S. Malcolm, said that ae a promise had been given to discuss the allowances, it would be advisable for members to confino themselves tp the Bill. In reply to Mr. H. G. Ell (Christchurch South), the Prime Minister said the regulations would be discussed before being finally gazetted. There would be no unfair . attempt to take advantage of the House, Mr. W. A. Voitch asked whether the Government would act on any recommendations the House made. Mr. Massey: It might agree to them during tho discussion. Members can move any motion or recommendation they wish. Mr. A. Harris (Waitemata) contended that definite standards should bo laid down in respect to financial assistance to soldiers. Mi-. A. E. Glover (Auckland Central) declared that Now Zealand's quota could be reduced to 1000 men a month. No Luxuries Given Up. Mr. C. E. Statham (Dunedin Central) said he was one of probably only three mombers of the House who were members of the Second Division. If there was a stern necessity of sending men to the front, there was the equal duty of providing Jor their dependants, and the men who remained at home should be prepared to foot the bill. Did the provisions contained in the "Bill entail on the men remaining tit home their having to give up some of their luxuries? Members. No. Mr. Statham: Not in tho. least. The mon at home would not, he contended, have to mako any sacrifice. He submitted that 7s 6d per week was inadequate for the support of a child. 'the Bill had its merits, but there were several things in it which would have to bo cleared up, Some of the provisions were mere pretences. Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby (Wairarapa) 6aid tho irreducible minimum pension for a woman should be two guineas, with 10s 6d for every child. Mr. C. H. Poole (Auckland West) contended that if it Were necessary to send the Second Division to the front it was necessary for the people with money to provide for the dependants. Sir Joseph Ward considered that every member should have tho courage not to mako appeals for those men they were all anxious to help, without taking into consideration the financial position of the country. Members of the House were as much responsible for the finances of tho country as the Government. He was going to tell the position of the country financially, and if any member of the House wanted to put the pistol at the Government's head, let them do it. „The amount of the allowances in twolvo months from now was £2,037.691, pensions £1,063,000, making a total of £3,100,691 in ono year. li the war went on longer than next year what would be the position then ? The total amounts this country had to provide for war pensions, increases in the old age pension, etc., the war bonuses, and the amount the Efficiency Board said the country was going to lose by six o'clock closing of hotel bars, came to £4,825,691. Out of that amount, the total upon tho Estimates last year was £975,000, leaving £3,900,000, and in that .calculation no amount was provided for tho additional number of wives of men at tho front for whom provision had to be made. He for one was not going to do anything unless the House gave tho Government the taxation to do it. They would have to put a halfcrown duty on tea and threepence jo, pound on sugar. Second Division Satisfied. To the credit of the representatives of the Second Division, every one of them agreed that a great deal had been done for them in tho proposals of the Government, and they were pleased with a large portion of the proposals. In the Budget it was estimated that there would bo a balance this year of £1.200,000. Assuming the war was victoriously ended this year, they could not expect "to have more than one and a-half million sterling. In this Bill they had proposals for at least £2,000,000 over 'the amount fit the expected balance this vear. Did members realise that the Government was taking

enormous burdens on its shoulders in doing what it admitted was necessarv? No money value could compare with human life. That was, however, not the standard. They were engaged in stretching out the finances to the utmost limit they could go. If the House wanted to go further, why did not members get up in the Houso and say they, were prepared to impose this extra tax on every section of the community in every electorate? If they did not, it lent colour to the suggestion that ,they were pandering to a section of the community. Mr. A. H. Hindmarah (Wellington ! South) said the Minister for Finance had! cried " wolf" so often that the House was hardly likely to pay serious attention to his warnings now." He had misled them before. How did they knowjie was not misleading them again? j Sir Joseph Ward denied that ho had ; misled the House in' any way, but new : conditions had arisen, and they had to bo \ J met. I Mr. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) criticised Sir j Joseph Ward's statement, A member of the Second Division deputation had reminded Mr. Massey that he had made a promise to send the last man and spend the last shilling, and had asked now that the last man was being sent would Mr. Massey spend tho last shilling. Tremendous Responsibility. The Prime Minister stated that he was not sure whether he was quite responsible for the statement about the last man and the last shilling, but ho would accept it, and he would say it again. It was the feeling of the patriotic section of the comi munity, but ha was sorry to say it was not the feeling of some members that'evening. The Government had endeavoured to make every possible provision for the Second Division, which had been pleased I with the Government's proposals. Ministers had a tremendous responsibility in connection with the Second Division. He would not allow anyone to suggest that he was doing anything unfair. He was 1 doing his share as Prime Minister of this country, and intended to go on until tho | war came to an end. Continuing, Mr. Massey asked was anyI one in that Chamber going to suggest that i the people of this country were going to be shirkers, or slackers, or quitters. "We ! are not financial shirkers or slackers in any sense," he said. The men most unfair in their demands on the country at present ■ were once the most persistent in stating that New Zealand had done her, share in j the war. , (Hear, hear, and cries of ■ "No.") No member was going to hold the pistol at his head or tho head of any member of the Government. Some mem- ! bers had signed a request to him for a j general election. If they were not careful they would get it, but if an election were held it would take place on the new electoral boundaries. He hoped members would support the Government to enable the country to do its full duty. 1 A serious change had recently taken place in the outlook, and he viewed the situation with a good deal of apprehension. If ' all these proposed increases were forced upon too Government there must be increased taxation, and where was it going to bo found? It would mean that they would ' i have to fall back upon the Customs, com1' bined with n reduction of the exemption , under the income tax. He did not wish to resort to these method, but the Goveminent might be compelled to do so. . Uthur members spoke, ail advocating higher allowances. The first three clauses of the Bill were passed and progress was reported. The ' House rose at 1.56 a.m.