PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXXIV, Issue 10626, 15 December 1897, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

[BY TELEGRAPH.—PRESS ASSOCIATION.) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, Tuesday. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. master and APPRENTICES BILL. The Master and Apprentices Bill' was fead a second time pro forma. FINAL STAGES. The Consolidated Stock Act Amendment Bill, Members of the House of Representatives Disqualification Bill, and the Fisheries Encouragement Act Amendment Bill, passed final stages. OLD AGE TENSIONS. Mr. T. Kelly gave notice to move, "Thab /he Council had the constitutional right to amend all clauses of the Old Age Pensions Bill except clause 54." Mr. Montgomery continued the adjourned debate on the Old Age Pensions Bill. He objected to the compulsory contributions as impossible. Tho money for pensions should be appropriated annually. He would vote against the Bill. Mr. Reeves supported the Bill. Mr. I'inkerton also supported the Bill, and pointed out that a large majority of the population were shut out from the benefit of the friendly societies, and must either get pensions or charitable aid. At 5 p.m. the Council adjourned till 7.30 p.m. The Council resumed ab 7.30 p.m. Messrs. L. Walker, MacGregor, Scotland, and Taiaroa opposed the Bill, Mr. MacGregor dealing with tho Bill at great length. Messrs. T. Kelly and Jenkinson supported the second reading. On division tho motion for the second reading was lost by '20 to 15. The division list is as follows Ayes (for the second reading), 15: Messrs. McCullough, Barnicoat, Smith, W. Kelly, Kerr, Rigg, Jones, Jenkinson, Harris, Reeves, Feldwick, Pinkerton, Jennings, Bolt, and W. C., Walker. Noes (20) Messrs. L. Walker, Stewart, Richardson, Baillie, Rowen, Scotland, MacGregor, Swanson, Shrimski, Taiaroa, Bonar, Stevens, Ormond, Holmes, Grace, McLean, Williams, Peacock, Montgomery, and Reynolds. Pairs: For the second reading: Messrs. T. Kelly, Arkwrighb, and Kenny. Against: Messrs. Johnson, Olliver, and Morris The motion to insert Mr. BqN'ar's amendment to lay aside tho Bill was then carried by 19 to 7. LAND FOR SETTLEMENT BILL. The Land for Settlement Act Amendment Bill was read a second time pro forma. The Council adjourned at 10.35 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday. After the telegraph office closed the Master and Apprentices Bill passed its third reading and final stages, and the House then adjourned. The House met at half-past two p.m. . HOROWIIENOA. Mr. Rolleston presented a petition from Major Kemp, protesting against the Horowhenua Block Bill, and asking to be heard before the bar of the House in support of his petition. Mr. Rolleston gave notice to move on the second reading of the Bill that the prayer of the petitioner be given effect to by the House. CHEVIOT ESTATE. A Bill to amend the Cheviot Estate Dis* position Act was received by, message, and read a first time. Mr. Seddon explained that the Bill made provision for handing over the wharf and certain roads to the County Council. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Leave of absence was granted to Mr, flerries for a week on account of illness.

SIR WALTER BULLER'S PETITION. The Native Affairs Committee reported /hat they had no recommendation to make on the decision of Sir Walter Buller to be heard at the Bar of the House on the Horowhenua Block, and they left the matter to the House. Mr. Rolleston gave notice to move that Sir Walter Buller's request be agreed to by the House. The Joint Committees on Bills reported that tho Horowhenua Block Bill was a public Bill. Replying to Mr. Pirani Mr.-SEDDON said ha had no doubt the Horowhenua Block Bill would appear on the Order Paper in due course. THE BASK DILL. Mr. Seddon moved the second reading of the Bank of New Zealand and Banking Act Amendment Bill to make further provision respecting the Bank of New Zealand, and to amend the law relating to Banks. He said he felt euro he was entitled to the sympathy of every member of tho House in introducing what he hoped was the last Banking Bill. Ho assured tho House if there was not necessity for this measure he should not have brought it forward, but the committee last session recommended its introduction, and he should have been open to censure if he had not done so. It was evidently feared the Government did not want to bring down the Bill, but now that ib had been introduced there was not nearly so many members anxious for the Bank Bill as there was formerly. This Bill was to a groat extent based on therccommendationsofjthe committee of last session, bub he felt there should be a final moasure on this question. It was mainly a machinery measure, and it was an absolute necessity that they should decide whether the present management of the Bank was satisfactory. He thought) a change was desirable, and this Bill provided for an enlarged Board, also for the representation of the colony over a wider surface than at present. After referring to the details of the Bill, which he had already explained to the House on its introduction,lie said the proposed Board of nine members were to be chosen from North and South Islands. It might be said the proposed Board was too large, but this was a committee objection, and the House could decide what number of directors should be on the Board. The Bill provided for a standing committee to bo elected by the Board itself, and this was on somewhat similar linos to the Bank of England, the constitution of which consisted of 46 directors with a governor and deputy-governor, They took the power of veto from the chairman and had given it to the chairman of the standing committee in large questions of policy. A Bank Chairman would veto a proposal till it was referred to the full ' Board of Directors, Ho (Mr. Seddon) knew nothing in repeot of tho working of the Bank, and said the Government had properly refrained from enquiring into any of the details of the Bank. There had been statements made that the agricultural interests of the country had not received as much attention from the Bank as it should have done, but that was a matter entirely for the Bank itself to deal with. In respect to the recommendation of the Committee he said he had already informed the House they had the resignation of the auditor, but he preferred to retain his position in the Bank. The Government proposed to accept his resignation aad allow him to go back to tho Bank. He (Mr. Seddon) thought theyshouldhaveanauditorin Wellington and also a colonial inspector, not to see whether ; the agents were doing their business satisfactorily, but they wanted to see that the j securities held against advances amounted j to the value of thoso advances, and that was ; what they had never yet got. The Auditor-in-Chief should remain in Wellington and the eecoud auditor should be appointed to ; oversee all securities held by the Bank. As regards the position of the president ho said . it had been urged on the Government that ;• there was necessity for a change. In this respect ho wished to say that since the j president had been in charge of the Bank It'. he, 88 Premier, had nothing to say against ■ his management, bub ib had been urged ■ from time to time that a change was desir- | able. The committee of last year had made I its recommendation in that respect and this f,. Bill was in accordance with that rebornmendation. He desired to state that the k charges levelled against the Government |; over this Bank were unwarranted and uni.-' generous, Their conduct was patriotic all $f through, and they had nothing to reproach themselves with, As the Bank of Mew Si 4.ea land was now doing half of the business °; ,j 0 colony ib was desirable * they M Bhould ~ nut that institution in ap ti unassailable position. With respect, to the shareholders, ho did not think they . « Vfero asking for undue representation, anil ■ , J, had stopped the proxy system, which ohe0 he thought would be beneficial. He desired Kin M?' the;general: business of ' the Bank of New Zealand was • fairly lup to ■ expectations, bub had ib nob beau for the ■ ■ 1 *v./ SSii ' fill •. ,

purchase of the Colonial Bank, it would not have been able to carry on so satisfactorily. Ho asserted that the. purchase of the Colonial Bank was more than anything else the salvation of the Bank of New Zealand, and it) had also .saved the colony. ■ He proposed to ask jny/mmittee to strike out the clause providing for all banks having assets in the colony equal to liabilities, although he strongly held that assets equal to liabilities should be held by all banks in the colony. With respect to the change required in the quarterly returns, ho said no one was at present wiser after the perusal of those returns, and although ho should withdraw that clause now, he should during the recess make fuller enquiries, and bring down ft general measure dealing with both questions next session. As regards the third question, of limiting the time for the disposal of the properties belonging to the banks, he alleged theso properties should be disposed of within a reasonable time, and thai) ib would be a good thing for the institutions themselves. While, therefore, he should withdraw this clause at present, lie thought it should bo the duty of this Parliament to deal with it. Respecting the properties of the Bank of New Zealand, he said those of them which were disposed of had realised a fair price, and both the Bank and the Assets Board should work together for the good of the institution, in order to secure the colony itself. Ho again asserted that what was done by the Government for the Bank of New Zealand was done in the best interests of the colony, and that tho Government wore patriotic in the action they hud taken. If the same thing had to be done to-morrow, he should still advise the House and the colony to prevent) the Bank from going into liquidation. Mr. Rolleston thought it would be extremely mischievous if any acrimonious discussion took place now over this Bill. Mr. Seddon's speech was certainly temperate, bub from first to last it was apologetic. As to the report of last year's committee, ho Baid it was disappointing, and ho thought the Premier had not shown any particular reason for introducing this Bill. Ho (Mr. Rolleston) approached the question entirely freo from the clamour of tho past, as he was not in the House when tho banking legislation passed, bub he did nob think they were justified in making the Bank of New Zealand more of a political institution than it was, and the question was whether they should continue taking that course. He regarded'this Bill as practically making the Governor-in-Uouncil the directorate of tho Bank and as tending to the establishment of a State Bank in the colony. Ho thought they should endeavour to get rid of tho Bank as soon as possible, but he thought the proposed change by this Bill was very undesirable. The proposed increase in tho directorate of the Bank would be anything but beneficial to the institution itself,

He hold that the smaller' tho number of the Board the less chance there would be of mischievous interference, and the less risk there would be of leakage with respect of private affairs. As regards the position of the president, Mr. Seddon had told them he had no fault to find with the

president, and yet he prnposed to abolish him with the compensation of one year's salary, with power to appeal to the Supremo Court. He (Mr. Rolleaton) hoped this Bill would not pass, as ho regarded the proposals as extremely faulty. He thought it was a mischievous proposal to compel banks to have an equal amount of assets and liabilities, as it might be very advantageous for banks to get assistance from outside, if necessary. With respect to the change in the quarterly returns he did not think it should be done without gravest consideration. He said the general opinion of the colony was that they should got rid of this Bunk as quickly as possible, and he hoped this Bill would not pass the House. Mr. R. Mackenzie said lie regretted ever since that lie had not supported Mr. George Hutchison in getting a committee appointed to inquire into this Bank question before the first Bill was passed, and he held the member for Patea was the only member entitled to credit in the matter. As for the

present Bill it should never be brought before Parliament, and the Government were not justified in doing it. Ho moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr. George Hutchison could not agree with Mr. Rolleston'a views of the Hill. lie looked on this as a most necessary measure. Ho held that the position of the presidont was Mono sufficient) to warrant the Bill being introduced, and instanced the report of last year's committee in support of his contention. If they passed some measure which would give the Bank a position of quietude for some years they would be doing a good work. The question would come up again in six or seven years, and he hoped that at that time the position of the Bank would be satisfactory. In the meantime ho hoped the Premier would proceed with this Bill and pass it into law. Mr. Millar said the whole object of the Bill wrn to abolish the president, but he asked wh it he had dono to merit dismissal ? Ho should oppose the Bill if only for tho manner in which it proposed to treat the

president. Mr. Bollard opposed the Bill and said if power was given to the Governor-in-Council as proposed by ib his opinion was that all the principal accounts would be withdrawn from the Bank. Mr. Larnaoh said looking ab the Bill at present) he felt disposed to vote against ib. Mr. Fkasek protested against the Bill and said the universal opinion amongst bankers in Wellington and other places was that it would bo extremely mischievous if carried. Mr. Hogg said the whole objocb of the Bill was to place tho Bank on a more popular basis. Mr. Crowtiier thought they should let the Bank alone as much as possible, and he hoped tho House would not every year be troubled with such intricate measures as Bank Bills. The debate was still in progress ab the 5.30 adjournment. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr. Montgomery continued his remarks and referred to the complete apathy with which this Bill was received by tho House, The situation was exactly the same as lasb year and the change was probably duo to the fact that there were several new members in the House. Ho hoped the Bill would pass, although he was uot enamoured of all its provisions.

Mr. Buchanan thought that if the Bill passed it would nob only nob bo the lasb one, bub would be the procursor of many other measures on the same subject. He admitted the parb he took in passing the banking legislation, bub that would not prevent him from opposing the innovations introduced by this Bill, and he held that the appointment of nine directors as proposed by the Bill would result in mischief to the institution itself. Ho thought jt much better to confine tho directorship to much narrower limits than those proposed, and said if the Bill went into committee he should do his best to reduce the number of directors.

Mr. R. Thompson said the members of the House were perfectly sick of Banking Bills, bub lie supposed it would be an annual occurrence now. He agreed with the Premier thab it would be a good thing to appoint a second auditor for tho Bank, as a better system of audit and valuation was urgently necessary. He strongly supported the proposal to abolish the President of the Bank, and said that ijntil that were done, very little confidence would be felt in the Bank. Therp I was a very strong feeling thab the president,' should bo abolished, but there was also a feeling of discontent, because many • officers of the Bank of New Zealand I had- been removed 1 to find places for officers af the Colonial Bank. He did not thipk ib possible for any bank, to be successful as long as ib was mixed up with the politics of the colony, and he expressed the opinion of a groat many financial men in the colony when he- said they should do their utmost to get rid of the Bank of New Zealand as soon as possible. He should support the second reading of the Bill for the express purpose of getting rid of tho president. ' ' ;

Mr. Wilson would vote , for the second reading of the Bill, but would oppose several clauses in committee, He failed to see thab flpy proof had been given of the president s unfitness to fill his position, and unless good -reasons were shown to. the contrary,*, ho should oppose the clause providing , for Mr. Watson's dismissal. . , y Mr. J. Allen said there were two main principles in the Bill. .. First, the increased patronage of tho Government, aud increased, influence over individuals in the elections, i | He failed to Bee .why. tho existing Board I should be £ abolished to make room for the Board proposed by the Bill, and the ; only

11 " ' " % " ■ ■:]**' '' 1-. r reason , for the change was to increase , the power of the Government on the directorate, He could not for a moment conceive it workable'to appoint > directors i for both Islands, and the proposal for a standing committee could only be meant to still further increase tho power of the Government on the Board. They should leave this Bank alone to work out its own salvation, bub if Ministers sought toincrease their power over the Bank in this way the result would be tbab business would f drift away from the Bank', and great injury would bo done to the institution. He hoped the House would nolj consent to the second reading of the Bill, and said if they increased the number of directors as proposed by the Bill they would bring the Bank under political influence in a very undesirable way. With respecb to Mr, Watson's dismissal, he held they should have all the facts before them before they cast such a slur on his character, and at present those facts had nob been forthcQw* tag. c Mr. Seddo.v said several members who had spoken in this debate had taken a most unusual course in stating that he (Mr. Seddon) had spoken on the Bill in a most half-hearted manner. He could nob understand the reason for the change: thab had taken placo over this question, as there certainly was a change. Was ib because the Bank of New Zealand was again a power in tho land as it was in former years ? andjeven that afternoon Mr. Crowther had told them they must speak of the Bank in respectful terms? Mr. Montgomery had told them that all he wanted was to get rid of tho president, bub lie (Mr. Seddon) thought they wanted a' great, deal more than that, namely—that there was necessity for strengthening the position of the Bank, owing to tho stake hold in ib by the colony. Replying to the statement that the Board should be chosen in Wellington, he said wider representation should be given to the Board, as if they were taken solely from Wellington they would nob give nearly such satisfaction as if the Board were appointed from both Islands. The main reason for bringing down this Bill was to strengthen the position of the Bank and to protect the interests of shareholders. If members thought the Bill was broughb in merely to get rid of the president they were very much mistaken, as ib was the colony first and the details afterwards ; and the chief object aimed at was to strengthen the Bank, He denied thab tho present Governwent; were responsible for the position of the Bank, t and said tho Government had acted entirely in the interests of the colony. If tho necessity arose, he should ocb in the same way again, oven if it cost him his political existence. He was not half-hearted in promoting this Bill. He believed ib was necessary in the interests of the Bank itself and of the colony. He should nob force the Bill through thab night, bub would allow membors an opportunity to pub their amendments on the Order Paper in order that he might consider their effect. The motion for the second reading was carried by 42 to 20. The following is tho division list Ayes (42): Cadman, Garncross, Carroll, Carson, Duncan, Field, Flatman, Gilfedder, Graham, Hall-Jones, Heke, Hogg, Holland, Houston, J. Hutcheson, G. Hutchison, Joyce, Kaihau, Lawry, Letlibridge, Lewis, McUowan, Meredith, Mills, Monk, Montgomery, Mooro, Morrison, O'Meara, O'Regan, Parata, Pere, Seddon, Smith, ■tovens, Steward, Sy'mes, Tanner, R. Thompson, T. Thompson, Wilson, and Wright. Noes (20): J, Allen, Bollard, Brown, Buchanan, Crowther, Eraser, Guinness, Hunter, Kelly, Lang, Lurnach, McGuire, M. J. S. Mackenzie. R. McKenzie (Motueka), McLean, Massey, Millar, Pirani, Richardson, J. W. Thomson.

Pairs for: E. G. Allen, J. McKenzie, Fisher, Stout, Wason; Against Hordes, Russell, Sligo, Ward, Rolleston, A LAND GRANT, Mr. Seddon moved the second reading of the Joseph Houston Land Grant Bill to authorise a grant of land to Joseph Houston, of Waitara. Agreed to. TAX ON COMMERCIAL TRAVELLERS. Mr. Seddon moved the second reading of the Land and Income Assessment Bill to remove the commercial travellers' tax. This was agreed to, and tho Bill committed and passed without amendment. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. Mr. Hall-Jones laid the Publio Works Statement on the table. lIAKBODII ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. Hall-Jones moved the second reading of tho Harbour Act Amendment Bill, providing that the Wellington Harbour Board may contribute to the improvement) of Soamos' Island lighthouse. Agree! to. BILL PASSED. The Joseph Houston Land Grant Bill was committed and passed without amendment. YOUNG PERSONS PROTECTION BILL. The Young Persons Protection Bill was further considered in Committee. Clause 2, interpretation, was altered to read "young person" instead of "girl," The clauso was also altered to make "young person " include " boy " or " girl." Clause 3 was altered so thab "other persons" may act as protection offloers under the Act as well as "discreet women." Clause 4, power to search a house where a young person iB harbouring for immoral purposes. Several amendments were proposed In the clause. Mr. R. Thompson protested against tho House being asked to waste its time in discussing Bills of this kind, which had not the slightest chance of becoming law. He also strongly protested againsta wrotcbod old hag being allowed to enter peoplo's houses at) night without warrant in ordor probably to gratify spite against some of the inmates, A lengthy discussion arose, during which an amendment was moved by Mr. R, .Mackenzie that the Chairman leave the chair. This was lost by 26 to 15. Mr. R. Mackenzie then moved that progress bo reported, and protested against tho Premier asking the Committee to consider such moasures as that before them. Ib was an insulb to the people thab women should be allowed to enter people's houses in the way allowed by the Bill. This was lost by 24 to 19, and the clauso was amended to provide that the protection officers should not enter houses without warrant.

The romaining clauses passed with amendments mad? by the Specif Committee.

Mr. Seddon moved the clause thab the Act shall have operation only in counties or boroughs the local' authorities whereof adopt ib by special order, This was carried.

The House was still sitting at 2 a,m,