PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXXI, Issue 9628, 28 September 1894, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

£BT TELEGRAPH.FBESS ASSOCIATION.]

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday,. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. THE FACTORIES BILL. The Factories Bill was re-committed, for the purpose of inserting an amendment by Mr. Bonar, exempting fish preserving factories from the operations of the Bill. He said the whitebait factory at Hokitika was worked only a short period each year, when the fish had to be preserved at once, or be spoiled, and it would be cruel to deprive many women and children from earning wages, by placing: the factory under the provisions of the Bill. The amendment was agreed to and the Bill reported. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY. The Inspection of Machinery Amendment Bill passed its final stages. LAND ACQUISITION BILL. Sir P. Buckley moved the second reading of the Lands .Improvement and Native Land Acquisition Bill, originating in the House. Mr. Ormond, while nob opposing the Bill, considered it would be better if the objects sought to be attained had been introduced in separate Bills. Mr. Stevens congratulated the Government on the desire to acquire native lands, but pointed out that if the purchase money was to be raised in New Zealand, deben-ture-holders would be liable to be taxed under the Land and Income Tax Act. The second reading was agreed to on the voices, and the Bill referred to the Waste Lands and Native Affairs Committee. SCHOOL ATTENDANCE BILL. The School Attendance Bill was committed. On the motion of Mr. Bowen, a provision was added to a clause enabling parents dissatisfied with committees' refusal to grant exemption certificates, to appeal to the Education Boards. Mr. Macgregor carried an atnondment enabling members of the committees as well as truant officers to prosecute parents who neglected to send children to school. The Bill was reported as amended. RATING BILLS. The Rating Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. Mr. Montgomery moved the second reading of the Rating on Unimproved Values Bill. Mr. Pharazyn, believing the Bill was mischievous in principle, and calculated to injure the poor man at the expense of the rich land owner, moved a hostile amendment, that the Bill be read that day six months.

The debate was adjourned, and the Council rose at 5 p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday. THE CHEAP MONEY SCHEME.

After the telegraph office closed this morning, in committee on the Government Advances to Settlers Bill, an amendment by Sir R. Stout to Clause 51, to provide that no moneys belonging to the Government Insurance Department or the Public Trust Office should be invested in land bonds or debentures under the Bill, was lost by 26 to 14. Clauses 66 co 70, inclusive, having reference to the appointment, duties, salaries, and travelling allowances of district solicitors and valuers, were struck out on the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, who said the matter would be dealt with by regulations.

Sir R. Stout took strong objection to Clause 78, which provides that the Bankruptcy Act, 1892, shall not apply to this Act. He said it was entirely unfair that after a man had given up all his land he should still rflmain bound to the State.

Mr. Bell doubted whether the clause had any meaning at all. Mr. Ward defended the clause as necessary to safeguard the interests of the State, and said hon. members must admit that if debtors were allowed to como in under the ordinary Bankruptcy Act in nine cases out of ten the Crown would get the worst of it. The clause was retained by 24 to 11. Sir R. Stout moved that the Chairman leave the chair, in order to protest againsb the retention of this clause in the Bill. The Crown was already perfectly safeguarded under the Bill. Mr. Seddon said the clause was for the purpose of assisting the security aDd makit safe. Sir R. Stout said it did not make it safe. After further discussion Sir R. Stout's motion was lost on the voices. A new clause was added to the Bill placing the appointment of valuers in the hands of the Governor-in-Council. Mr. Ward moved a new clause providing that every person in the business of the Advances to Settlers Office who takes any reward or fee from an applicant for a loan, shall be dismissed from office and be liable to two years' imprisonment. Agreed to. The Bill was then reported with amendments, which were ordered to be considered at next sitting.

A PERSONAL MATTER. On the motion for the adjournment of the House Mr. G. J. Smith obtained tleave to make a personal explanation. He said he was returned to the House against the wishes of certain members of the Ministry and since then he had been subjected to things he resented very much. He did not receive an invitation to the caucus of the Government party held this week, and as the fact was telegraphed all over the colony he wished to place his position before the public. The whips had informed him that his exclusion from the caucus was intentional, as his attitude towarde the Government during the sea-ion was such as had lod them to believe he was not a member of the true Liberal Party. In reply to this he had to say the only policy measure he did not vote for wan the Consols Bill. It had been stated in the lobbies by Ministers that they considered their party too large, and if they could force some of them over into the Opposition they would be only too glad. While he came here to support the Liberal policy he was not prepared to sink his individuality in any way. The Hon. J. McKknzik said he had never looked on Mr. Smith as a member of the Liberal party, and never knew he claimed to be a member of that party until to night. Sir R. Stout said Mr. Smith was something more than a Liberal—he was really a Radical. Mr. Hall-Jones said he had always known Mr. Smith to hold extreme Radical views. Mr. Collins expressed regret at the friction that had occurred, and although opposed to Mr. Smith on many questions, he must say he had always regarded him as a Radical. Mr. G. W. Russell said a larger question was at issue than affecting one man. The question was whether the leaders of the Liberal party should have the right of judging who were members of that party? He contended the party had no right to shut Mr. Smith out from the caucus when others like Mr. Saunders, who had taken a strong stand against the Government, were invited to attend. Mr. Seddon paid Mr. Smith must have referred to the .Minister of Labour in stating that he (Mr. Smith) was returned against the wishes of some members of the Ministry. Mr. Smith : I said some Ministers, but I do not include the Colonial Treasurer in the number.

Mr. Skddon, continuing, said Mr. Smith had always been treated by him with every consideration and courtesy. If he felt aggrieved, his duty was to have spoken to him (Mr. Seddon) on the matter, and in neglecting to do this he had made a mistake. On sixty occasions up to the 13th September Mr. Smith had voted against the Government—(Mr. Smith : Was it on matters of principle or detail ?) —and how could the Ministry under such circumstances look upon him as a supporter? It was unreasonable to expect them to do so. The Liberal party was never so strong as at present, and in the interests of the people it was his duty to keep it strong, and not try to drive members into the Opposition, as stated by Mr. Smith. Members should not be of the Liberal party and yet constantly vote against the Government. He defended his colleague, the Minister for Education, from the insinuation that Mr. Smith was returned against his will. As to Mr. Saunders' attitude, he did not object to get a few knocks trom that hor. gentleman, considering his experience and length of service in the House. It was now for the hon. member by his works to «how he was a true Liberal.

j The House rose ab 3.30 a.m.

The House met at 2.30 p. m. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. - . . Mr. Pirani was granted leave of absence for a week on account of family bereavement. THE BANK OF NEW ZEALAND. Mr. Larnagh tabled a question asking whether, considering that the colon has guaranteed the Bank of New Zealand to the extent of £2,000,000, it is the intention to continue the risk of the Bank carrying on business in Australia, and in other places outside New Zealand, and not subject to the control of this colony; also, whether any steps will be taken in the interest of the colony to insist on the separation of the Estates Co. from the Bank of Mew Zealand ; and further will steps be taken immediately to ascertain to what extent, if any, the New Zealand Loan and Mercantile Company, either the old or new company, is concerned in itß financial relations with the Bank of New Zealand, and if either is indebted to the other, to what extent. the railways BILL. Mr. Seddon moved that the amendments made in the Railways Bill by theJLegislative Council be agreed to. He said the amendments were of an unimportant chaacter, but improved the Bill. Mr. Mitchrlson asked whether it was proposed to appoint a Minister for Railways. Sir R. Stoot asked whether the Railway Commissioners were entitled to compensation. Mr. Seddox said they were, but he would enquire as to whether Mr. Maxwell and Mr. Han nay were paid full time for their services. In reply to Mr. Mitchelson's question, he said the Government had not yet decided whether or not they would appoint another Minister. Ho favoured a re-ajustment of portfolios, but the question to consider was whether the present Ministers could carry on from January next (when the Government would takeover the control of railways) until next session of Parliament. For himself, he was prepared to make any sacrifice so long as the efficiency of the railways was not interfered with. The House would be informed when any decision was arrived at. He was very pleased that the people of the colony had now resumed control of a property which should never have been taken from them.

The motion for adopting the amendments made by the Legislative Council was agreed to. TUB SHOPS BILL. Mr. Reeves moved that certain amendments made by the Council in the Shops and Shop Assistants Hill be disagreed with. The principal amendment which he should ask the House to disagree with was one which provided that the Bill should not apply to shops which employed no hired labour.

Mr. Thompson thought if the Bill included small shops it would ruin a large number of struggling shopkeepers. Sir R. Stout held it was entirely unfair that barmaids should be put in a different position from shop girls. He also thought if a man were not allowed to sell sugar on Saturday afternoons, he should nob be allowed to soil whisky. Mr. Reeves said if t}ie Council thought public-houses should be closed on the halfholiday, and they were not content to wait for the Licensing Bill, then the proper place for that amendment was in the Factories Bill.

Mr. Guinness said Mr. Reeves, by his radical and hasty labour legislation was doing his best to wreck the Liberal party. Many of these Labour Bills should be called Bills for the Suppression of the Liberty of the Subject. Mr. Seddon said if the Council's amendments were agreed to, all the Chinese shops could remain open when other shops were closed.

Mr. Reeves' motion was carried by 43 to 13, and the amendment of Council respecting small shops disagreed with. Mr. Reeves moved that the amendment of the Council in striking out hotel bars from the Bill be agreed with. Sir R. Stout moved that the amendment be disagreed with. After a very lengthy discussion Mr. Reeves' motion was carried by 34 to 30.

The following was the division list:— Ayes, 34 : Buchanan, Carncross, Carroll, Collins, Crowther, Duncan, Duthie, Frasor, Graham, Green. Hall, Harris, Hogg, Houston, J. W. Kelly, W. Kelly, Lang, Lawry, Macintosh, J. McKenzie, R. McKenzie, McLachlan, Mills, O'Regan, Parata, Fere, Pinkerton, Keeves, Seddon, E. M. Smith, Stevens, Steward, Ward, Willis. Noes, 30 : Allen, Buddo, Buick, Button, Carnell, Earnshaw, Flatman, Guinness, HallJones, Heke, G. Hutchison, W. Hutchison, Joyce, T. Mackenzie. Maslin, Massey, McGowan, McNab, Meredith, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Morrison, Newman, G. W. Russell, W. R. Russell, Saunders, G. J. Smith, Stout, Thompson, Wilson The exemption of hairdressers was also disagreed with. The new clause, 16a, providing for the closing of offices, was objected to by Mr. Reeves, and disagreed with. A Conference was set up to confer with the other branch of the Legislature on the amendments thai were disagreed with.

OLD AGK PENSIONS.

Mr. W. Hutchison brought down the report of the Old Age Pensions Committee. They had several specific schemes before them for consideration, and had arrived at the following resolutions:—" (1) That a system of old age pensions for both sexes should be established by the State if the necessary funds can be provided ; (2) that it would nob be within the scope of practicable finance to fix the age for the commencement of pensions below 65 years ; (3) that all applicants for a pension must have resided in the colony for at least 20 years immediately previous to their application ; (4) that no pension be granted to any one who has been convicted of an indictable offence, or of drunkenness three times during the previous seven years ; (5) that every pensioner be entitled to eight shillings per week, and in case of husband and wife the joint allowance be fifteen shillings per week." The committee state the subject is so large, and has so many ramifications that they have not had time to formulate any particular scheme, and suggest that the Government should appoint a Royal Commission during the recess to enquire fully into the question. Mr G. W. Rosskll asked whether the House would be given an opportunity of debating the question this session. Mr. Seddon said he would like to see the subject discussed, but he was afraid time would not allow of this being done during the present session unless it was after the Appropriation Bill had been passed. , The House rose at 30.

The House resumed at 7.30. CONSOLS BILL.

The New Zealand Consols Bill was committed.

Clause 3, deposits not exceeding £1,000, may be received. Mr. Buchanan moved an amendment that only £5011,000 be raised under t he Bill.

Mr. Fkaskr asked what was to be done with the money. Mr. Ward said he might as well be asked how the Post Office Savings Bank deposits were to be used. Money raised as consols would be used exactly in the same way as the Post Office funds.

Sir R. Stout contended that this Bill was practically a local loan for 40 years. He supported Mr. Buchanan's amendment, and submitted that £500,000 was quite enough for this year. Mr. Ward said Sir R. Stout was misleading the House, for clause 14 provided that this money could be repaid, and deposits were receivable for not more than 40 years. It was not a legi imate thing to say this was a borrowing proposal, and it was not to be used for public works. Sir R. Stout ridiculed this argument, and contended that consols could nob be paid till the term of 40 years had expired. After lengthy discussion, Mr. Buchanan's amendment was lost by 37 to 23. Mr. Mackknzib (Clutha) moved a further amendment, providing that the rate of interest for deposits should be 3£ per cent, instead of 4.

Lost by 34 to 22. Sir R. Stout and Mr. Russell referred to the extraordinary decision just come to to allow the Treasurer to issue these consols at any price he might think fit. Mr Ward again repeated that this money was not to be used for the ordinary finance of the colony. The clause was finally passed on the voices.

Clause 4 : Date of repayment and interest to be fixed.

Mr. G. J. Smith moved to strike " forty years " fro-n the clause with a view to insert a shorter term.

The amendment was lost by 31 to 22, and " forty " retained. Clause 7 : Deposits to be paid into the public account.

Dr. Newman moved an amendment to the clause to secure that thin money should not be at the disposal of the Colonial Treasurer. - ;

Mr. Ward said he had already agreed to strike out the clause, and now Dr. Newman would nob agree to thab. 'Dr. Newman's amendment was lost on th e voice*.

Clause 7 was finally struck out. Clause 35, consols may be converted into stock, was also struck out. The other clauses passed without alteration. Mr. Ward moved a new clause instead of clause 7, providing thab all deposits received under this Bill shall be paid into a separate account. This was agreed to. Sir R. Stout moved a new clause to prohibit consols being converted in London. Mr. Ward said the clause was not necessary, as there was no possible authority for converting these consols now thab clause 32 was struck out.

Sir R. Stoot said his clause could nob possibly harm the Bill. After considerable discussion, Mr. Ward said he should agree to consult the law officers, and if the amendmenb were necessary he should re-commit the Bill. Captain Russell said he had all along been of opinion that they should have the Attorney-General sitting in the House to advise the Government. The discussion on Sir R. Stout's proposed new clause was still going on when the telegraph office closed at two a.m.