THE GENEEAL ASSEMBLY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXIII, Issue 7660, 10 June 1886, Page 6

THE GENEEAL ASSEMBLY.

[BI TSLBGRAPH-FRBSS ASSOCIATION.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday. TUB Council met at half-past two. THE TROPKRTY TAX. Mr Bucklky, in reply to Mr. Miller, ■tated that the Government would lay a return on the table ehowing the amount colleoted under the property tax, with and without exemptions. AUCKLAND LUNATIC ASYLUM. Un Been ley, in replying to Mr. Williams, said the Government was fully alive to the importance of the inipector's report, relative to the overcrowding of the Aucklaud Lunatic Asylum, which was described as "becoming positively disgraceful." The matter was of the utmost importance. He was aware that there were many persons immured in the asylums who were sane, and who should not be detained. Moreover, he trusted that very soon this etate of things would be amended, and would not occur again. SULK IN SCHOOLS. Mr. M«NZIES moved, " That school committees should have power to cause the Bible to be read in schools daily, subject to a timetable and a conscience clause." In bringing the matter forward, he remarked that until the question was decided, and decided in favour of the Bible being read in State schools, the matter would crop up again and again. In the schools under fhe London School Board it had been shown conclusively that it was the desire that tho Bible should be tanght. In this colony he ventured to believe that the majority of the puople desired that the Bible should be read in the State schools. ~..», Mr. Barxicoat, while ho had the greatest reverence for the Bible, considered that the teaching of the Bible by teachers in th« State achools would have the effect of diffusing aectarian views amougst the pupils. He opposed the motion. Mr. Shrimski ctesired to ascertain from the mover of the motion whioh was the •• Good old Book" spoken of as the Bible, and which he said " exalteth a nation," was to bs read ? Was the " Good old Book" the Old Testament, the New Testament, or some Other of the many books of the Bible ? Colonel Brktt : Or the Koran. Mr. Shrimski echoed : Yee, or the Koran. Be believed that if the Bible was used in State schools it would raise class against chss and religion against religion. Who was to be the arbiter as to what book or portion of tho Bible was to be read, and who was to impart the instruction ? He supposed that the New Testament would be chosen, and if this were so, it must give offence to the parents of Jewish children who were attending State schools, and the same remark held good with regard to the reading of the Douay Bible in the schools. Colonel BuETr expressed his intention of Voting for the motion. The religion of a nation which did not partake of reading of the Bible, partook of that of the devil, and any country in which the Bible was not read in schools was going to perdition. Mr. Scotland, while he revered the Bible, objected to the book being read in State schools. If the Bible were read by the teacher daily in school in a perfunctory manner it could do no good, and if a clergyroan read the Bible in school dissension would arise. With the deepest regret, he admitted that was increaaiug in the colony to an alarming extent; but he failed to see that the motion would have the eHeot of remedying the evil. Mr. Holmes supported the motion, believing, as be did, that the Bible was the best educational book, irrespective of its religious tendencies. Mr. Bathgatk's reason for supporting the motion wae that the country proscribed a book which not only gronnded children in religious and moral training, but also deprived them of the sentiments upon which the greatest orators and lawgivers of ancient M well aa modern days, were grounded. He supported tho motion. Mr. Lahmann objected to tho motion. The Council divided on the motion, which ■was carried. Ayes, 20 ; noes, 14.

READ FIRST TIME. The Native Owners Equitable Bill was received from the House ot Representatives, and read a first time, the second reading being made an order for next day. THE KERSIADEC ISLANDS. Mr. MoLban resumed the debate on the question, " That an address be presented to the Queen, praying that the Rermadec Islands mar be annexed to New Zealand," and in doing so he asked the Council to still further adjourn the debate until the action of the French with regard to New Hebrides was known. Mr. Reynolds had no objection to a farther adjournment, but as it had been asked what good they were, he might say that he had that day received a telegram stating that the islands would carry 10 aheep to the acre. The debate was adjourned to Tuesday next. The Council went into committee on the Charitable Trusts Extension Bill. Several amendments were agreed to. Progress was reported. FRENCH CRIMINALS. Mr. Whitaker gave notice that next Tuesday he would ask leave to introduce a Bill to protect the colony of New Zealand from French criminals. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday. The House met at half-past two p.m. TRENCH COSVIOTS. Mr. Moss asked the Premier if he will Communicate with the Governments of other Australasian colonies, to ascertain if it be practicable, so long as French convicts are eent to the Pacific, to unite in preventing intercourse with trading vessels coming from French' colonial ports, until it shall have been proved to the satisfaction of a competent officer at the port of arrival thai such vessels have not among the passengers or crew any person who is a convict, or who has been a convict within the previous three years ? Sir R. Stout said the question required federal action. He said they had already an Act preventing importation of convicts, but that Act did not apply to foreign convicts. He was not aware they had power to pass an Act such as that suggested, and he ■aw no practical way out of the difficulty.

NEW BILLS. Several Bills were introduced. LEGISLATIVE EXPENDITURE. Mr. O'CuNOE moved, " That a committee be appointed, to consider and report what retrenchment may be made in expenditure connected with the Legislature, the committee to consist of the Premier, Major Atkinson, Mr. Garrick, Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr % T. Thompson, Mr. Brown, and the mover. Sir R. Stout aaid if the House wished to consider this matter, the Government of course would offer no objection. He suggested his name being withdrawn, and the Speaker's name substituted. Major Atkinson thought the name of the leader of the House should not be omitted from the motion. He hoped the Premier would allow his name to remain on the committee. Mr. Bryce said the Government should lead the House on those matters. Hβ differed from the Premier in the position he had taken up. The Speakbb eaid he should probably have to appear before the committee as a witness. Sir R. Stout said he would withdraw his objection, and allow hie name to remain on the committee. The motion was agreed to. CONTRACTS TO MAORIS. Dr. Newman moved " That in the opinion of this House no contracts for works out of loan should bo offered to Maoris alone, but should be open alike to Europeans and Maoris." He pointed out that there were a large Dumber of contracts let to Maoris alone in the North Island Trunk Railway, and he considered they should be open to Europeans Mr. RicHABDSOir end it was considered a matter of policy to offei some small contracts on this line to Maorie in the King Country. Hβ hoped the motion would be withdrawn, as it would be unwise to hamper Government in this direction. Mr. Lam said the same system had been pursued of letting contracts inside white country, and not in Maori country alone. Th«. motion vu lost, on a division, by 39 to 37. SPECIAL SETTLEMENT nKGULATIOK. Mr. Wilson moved " That special settle, ment regulations be so altered that three months' residence during any year from the third to the sixth after occupation, shall be sufficient to comply with them." Mr* Brcoe supported the motion. Mr. Ballanoe said he had received no pompliinte on thia matter, Hβ thought

there was no occasion for the motion at the present time, and hoped it would be withdrawn, j Colonel Trimble entirely agreed with the motion. Captain Russhll also supported the resolution. Mr. O'Conor opposed it. Mr. Kerb would support the proposal, but suggested that six months' residence be inserted instead of three months. Mr. BitETHAM took the same view as Mr. Kerr. He moved an amendment that six months' residence be inserted. Mr. Wilson accepted the amendment. Mr. Ormond supported the amendment. Hβ should like to have eeen some steps taken by whioh those lands were disposed of to bona fldo settlers, He knew of many cases in which they were not bona fide settlers where land wae taken up. for speculative purposes. Hβ held it was not possible for those settlements to be carried out in the same manner as they were under provincial governments. Mr. Fergus also urged that the land should be jjiven to bona faile settlers. Sir K. Stout did not blame the mover of the motion or the amendment for their action, but he thought they scarcely understood the effect of their proposals. He thought the aim of all their laud eyatem should be to provide for the occupation of land. He aeked the House not to pass either resolution or amendment, as it seemed to him it would destroy the special settlement scheme. Mr. Hctrsthouse did not believe in the special settlement scheme at all. He conaidored it was a " fad" of certain politicians. .After further discussion, Mr. Boetham'e amendment was put, and loaf, by 35 to 34. TUB RABBIT QUESTION. Mr. Buchanan moved "That it be an instruction to committee appointed on the rabbit question to also consider the administration of the Sheep Aot." Agreed to. INSURANCE ASSOCIATION. Mr. Ormond moved for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into and report on the subject of investments made by the Government Insurance Association in land purohaees, and also to report generally on the working of the institution, the committee to consi&t of Messrs. Montgomery, Gore, M. J. S. McKenzie, Macandrew, Holmes, G. F. Kichardson, Stewart, Leveetarn, Colonel Fraaer, and the mover. Agreed to. RESERVES. Dr. Newman resumed the interrupted debate on the question, "That in the opinion of the Hoo.ee it is advisable that reserves in land should now be set apart for charitable aid, higher, technical, and primary education, and harbours, and the House requests the Government to give effect to this opinion by legislation this session." He moved to strike out the word " harbours " from the motion, but leave was refused.

The motion, on being put, was lost by 36 to '22. THE PACIFIC ISLANDS. Sir G. Grey moved, by arrangement, "That the report of the Pacific Idauds Committee bo considered at half-past seven to-morrow." Agreed to. THE CIVIL SERVICE. Mr, Brown moved "Thatthe circumstances of the colony require the moot rigid economy in official and departmental expenditure, and to enable this to bo done in the most practical way, this House is of opinion that Government should appoint two practical experts, accountants, to inquire and report as to possible saving, without impairing the efficiency of the Civil Service." He explained that he did noi want to have any all round reduction of 10 per cent., but a reduction in the number of the service, lie bad been informed by a high official in the Railway Department that a saving of £50,000 could be effected in the Railway Department alone. He said he also thought there were too many Ministers of the Crown, and too many members of the blouee, and contended that many savings couid be effected in many directions. Mr. Hatch supported the motion. The debate was interrupted by the halfpa»t live adjournment. The House resumed at half-past seven. rHIENDLY SOCIETIES.

Mr. O'Conoe moved the second reading of the Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill. He said the Bill was the name as that brought in last year, and he had introduced it at the instance of several friendly societies in his oven district. Sir R. Stout said it would be wise to puis the meaeure with certain restrictions. The Bill ehould be carefully watched in the interest of the friendly societies themselves, and he would desire to sco some amendments in committee. The motion was agreed to. FISH AI.'CTION BILL. Colonel Fkasek moved the second reading of tho Fish Auction Bill. He said it was brought in to enable lishermen to sell fieh in the nenal way by auction. The fishermen at the Thames were ia the habit of doing this, but some objection was made under an old provincial urdinauce, which prohibited them from selling tish before ten a.m. or after four p.m. Tho Bill was simply to enable tish to be sold by auction at all hours. Agreed to. LAND ASSOCIATION BILL, Mr. Ivfcss moved the second reading of the Land Association Bill. He said the Bill had been very carefully drafted by a number of gentlemen, who had given it careful consideration. It was hoped the Bill would have been brought in by the Colonial Treasurer for extending relief to long suffering agriculturists, as promised by him in Auckland, but great disappointment waa felt at the Treasurer not having done so. He held that it was tli3 duty of the Government to do something to relieve agriculturists from the high race of intereit they had to pay. The Mortgage Debentures Billot last session h*U proved utterly unworkable so far as benetitiug those in whose interest it. was biought in. He hoped the House would provide aome machinery by wbich agriculturists would be able to enter tho market and obtain money at reasonable interest. He pointed out that inouey could be obtained for 3 or 3i per cent., being half what was pa:d at the present time. He detailed the provisions of the Bill at some length, explaining that it was a measure to enable landowners and others to raise money with facility upon security of their landed property. Sir J. Vuokl aaid the Bill required a large amount ot study to understand the machinery which it provided, and he had not had sufficient time to master its contents. He could not help saying that the Bill was a somewhat complicated one. The amouat of work proposed to be thrown on the Registrar was more than that officer could properly perform. He thought it very undesirable also to give those institutions the power of issuing notes; and he would not be in favour of giving them more power for note issue than they had at present. With regard to the question of private borrowing, he contended that that question was much misunderstood. The amount due from private burrowing was not part of the debts of the colony, and should not be regarded in that light. He admitted he had made proposals some 141 months ago, which would have provided ior tho Government taking up this business to a a limited extent, but tboy had received strong hints that the propoeal to borrow money in England for the purpose referred to in the Bill would be distasteful. He was, therefore, uot prepared with any proposals at preeent. He would not oppose the second reading of the Bill, but would suggest that the debate be adjourned, at the same time disclaiming any wautof sympathy with the object of the measure. Mr. Walker moved that the debate be adjourned till Thursday, 24th inst. The amendment was agreed to. LAND FOR SETTLEMENTS BILL.

Sir G. Ghkt moved the second reading of the Land for fcettlements Bill. Hesaid the Bill was an attempt to turn the present depression existing in .New Zealand to the future advantage of the country. He pointed out that the value of lands to be taken for settlement: was the present property tax value. The Bill proposed to take everything as it stood at the property tax valuation! and assuming tho titles to be correct. It provides that Government may acquire land for settlement either by purchase or by taking it uudar the Public Works Act. The uieabs to enable this to be done were the Land Boards. A competent actuary had certified that if this Bill were carried out no loss could iccrue in any case. There would be expenses such as roads, surveys, etc When land was obtained it was divided into farms, and individuals could then select what they liked. Tbe first selector could go on a farm and hold it for six mouths, when he would have to commence payment of interest. Jtle contended that great advantage

would accrue fiom. a Bjstein such as he proposed, Hβ believed many mechanics would immediately make inquiries for farms under this eyetem, ana a desire for acquiring fame would again arise up among young men. He contended that it was possible to imbue men with other tastes than those which generally prevailed at the present day, and, if euoh a system as he proposed were carried, a totally different population would grow up, with agricultural tastes and inatiuots, whioh would be of immense benetit to the country. Hβ also believed that, under this system, large blocks of native land could be acquired which were now closed against ue, simply by giving a fair value for laud so acquired, and one uniform system for public lands and for lands eo purchased might then prevail within a few months from the present time. Ho thought that the faot that such a measure as this would enable every man in New Zealand to obtain a valuable farm should commend itself to the House, and influence members in passing the Bill. Sir R. Stoot aaid he approved of the principle that the State should have the right of purchasing any land while circumstances should arise necessitating ib. As for the principle of allowing the State to purchase private lands ifor pureosee of settlement he approved of it. He regretted, however, that Sir G. Grey had not brought in a more workable Bill than the present one. He pointed out that there were still 25 millions of acres of land suitable for settlement left in the colony. Suppose the land were bought for £15 per acre all round, they would require to sell one million and ahalf of land bonds to the charge of the consolidated fund, and if 200 acres were given it would cost three millions to settle a thousand people. As to the details of the Bill, land was to be bought on property tax value, with some percentage added. Government officer*, he said, would be liable to have charges of corruption brought against them in the purchase of those lands. Then after five years' occupa tion of land it was to baoome freehold again. That was no settlement of the land question. If the State had a right to purchase land it should have the right to maintain control of the land in future. He believed the details of the Bill would require to be thoroughly changed before it becams workable. The very fact of the Bill being brought in showed that the freehold system had broken down. If it had not broken down, he would ask why was this Bill required. He insisted that the State should have some control over the land. He approved of the prinoiple of the Bill, but it would have to be turned almost inside out before it was workable.

Mr. hURSTHonsE also agreed with the principle of tho Bill, but objected to details The Bill did not give effect to the principles which Sir G. Grey advocated in his presessional speeches. There were many difficulties in the Bill as it at present stood, and unless enormous alterations were made in committee he ehould have to oppose it. Mr. J. S. Mackenzie thought the Premier's objection, that we had so much State lands at present available, was the most fatal that that could be urged auain9t the Bill. He denied that tho prinoiplo of the Bill had been affirmed already. What the Bill proposed to do was to give persons farms of 320 acres, which had been improved by other people's capital and labour. He held that at the present moment that would be a very dangerous principle. There must also be sometinalityof thisschtme. Hecombatted the statement ol the Premier that tho Bill showed that the freehold system had broken down. A much simpler explanation of the Bill was that the Bill was not required. It was premature by at least 50 yeare. Mr. Bollsstom said if the borrowing policy at present going on were persisted in some other provision ehould be adopted with regarded to land already alienated from the Crown. He did uot agree with the Premier as to the amount of land available for settlement in the colony, With regard to the Bill it certainly affirmed the principle that a large majority of the House would! afii.-m, but he doubted very much whether it would get on the statute book. As to tho details, however, he thought they showed a large amount of thought on the part of the movor. However, he differed altogether from the proposal to value the laud on the property tax valuation, and he also disagreed with other details. He alao considered the propoeal (or land bonus a very objectionable one. He was glad to tind from the Bill that the hon. gentleman had changed his views on the question of perpetual leasing. He held that a system of perpetual leasing should prevail in respect to those lands. If they were to go in for borrowing, as he eupposod they would do, notwithstanding his protest against it, he contended that they must have some such system is was embodied in this Bill, but differing in details. He thought tho scheme proposed by Sir G. Grey was worthy of the attention of the House.

Sir J. Vogel said there was no such thing as a perpetual lease. Hβ thought the House should feel pleased at discussing the measure, which wae a real practical advance in thn mode of discussing the settlement of the land of thei colony. They might gain gome advantage by reading tbe Bill a second time. Ho was not aatinliod that the Bill carried out the principle for the proper settlement of land. Hα was not in favour of the property tax valuation being taken, nor vras he at all clear that compulsory powers wore required to take those lands. He thought if they placed facilities in the way of large holders cuttiog up their estates they would go far enough for the present, aa there was no doubt that the proposal would not be decided for a long time, lie suggestod asking for tenders from persons willing to sell their land uudor certaiu conditions. Ho disapproved of a number of the restrictions proposed under the Bill. Jf this Bill paved the wav to a larger amount of settlement, it would no doubt give a start to the saleable value of property, because if property were more saleable thern would be lees depression. He hoped the Bill would be read a second time, and that in committee such changes might be made as are considered desirable. Air. Bkcce thought the question of perpetual leasing was altogether foreign to the subject. He regretted that he should have to vote against the Bill, as they must all recoyuiao how much pains Sir G. Grey had taken over it. He thought, however, under present conditions, the Bill was altogether iuadinisiible, and he questioned very much whether it would be any benelit to thnsc whom it was intended to benefit. The Bill would also be an unwarrantable interference with the rights of property, and would be absolutely unworkable in practice.

Mr. W. F. Buckla-.D looked forward to the time when there would be a radical change in our land laws. He would support the Bill for the reason that it would test the feeling of people who were always crying out for land. Mr. Kerr moved as an amendment, that the Bill be read this day fifty years. Mr. Dodson supported the second reading, if only to assert the rights of the people to the land. The question of land held in large blocks was a serious one in his district. He contended it was not too early to dosl with this question. The Bill, hn thought, aimed at too much, but he would like to eea the principle of the Bill tried as an experiment in small areas and Well-defined districts. He intended to vote for the aecond reading of the Bill. Mr. Turnboi.l supported tke Bill, uud would endeavour to amend it in committee. The object of the Bill wae no doubt to deal with large holdings. This wan oue of the great secrets why the railways did not pay. If these laucle were fully occupied with small holdings they would carry a population ten times larger than they carried. Major Atkinson moved the adjournment of the debate till Friday. He said it was a inoet important question, and shonld not be hurried. Agreed to. The House rose at twenty-five minutes past twelve a.m.