DEPUTATIONS TO MINISTERS.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXI, Issue 6950, 26 February 1884, Page 6

DEPUTATIONS TO MINISTERS.

THAMES-VALLEY ROTORUA RAILWAY. A deputation consisting of Dr. Campbell, Meisre. T. Peacock, M.H.R., J. M.Clark, T. Morrin, J. Stewart, and J. Batger, on behalf of Thames-Valley Rotorua Railway Company, waited on the Hon. W. Rolleston, Minieter of Lands, and the Hon. J. Bryce, Native Minister, yesterday at the Waste Lands Office, in regard to receiving endowments of land for the purpose of the railway. Dr. Campbell, Chairman of the Company, said that the deputation waited on Ministers, bat hoped that they would have received a reply to the last letter sent by the company to the Government. That moroiDg they received a letter stating that Ministers could not give any definite reply until they returned to Wellington. So that as far as the company were concerned they had nothing to say to the Government on the present occasion. They awaited the reply of the Government to the last communication of the company. They hoped after the recent visit of Ministers to Kotorua that they would be able to give some assurance of a speedy lolution of the question. Mr. Rollesxox thought that the directors of the company wished to meet him, in order to discuss matters. Dr. Campbsll said the past correspondence treated with the whole question in every way. He did not see what object could be gained by discussing it at present. The company wanted a definite reply to the proposition which they had made to the Government. As he had stated, they hoped Ministers would be able to state some definite time within which a solution of the difficulty would be arrived at. Mr. Bryoe thought that the company had requested an interview. Dr. Campbell said they had, and they hoped to get a reply to the'letter. iAt. Rolleston was quite prepared to state to the company his view of the question and the present position of affairs. It seemed to him, the company having asked for an interview, that it was reasonable and only courteous on hia part to grant them an interview before he gave a reply upon points which might be modified by discussion. Dr. CiMPBKLL said the deputation would be glad to hear any statements which might be made, but they had nothing to say more than had already appeared in writing. Mr. Bryce thought that the letter which Mr. Rolleiton had Bent v.-ae to the effect tbat it was more convenient to send a formal official reply after returning to Wellington ; and he (Mr. Bryce) did not at all understand that the letter said that the Government were not in a position to make a reply as seemed to be thought by the directors. Mr. Psacock explained that Mr. Rolleston's reply had only been received by the directors tbat morning. As far as he understood the matter, the directors had put a definite issue before the Government. The question had assumed various phases, and the last one was with regard to the point whether the Government would enter into a contract on certain conditions, in order that the company might be able to go on with the first section of the line, or rather conclude their arrangements in regard to the first section of the line which was now being made. He thought the directors had explained fully in their letter that it was necessary some decision should be come to at a very early date, as the company had to make their arrangements whether the line went to Rotorua or not. They had made Ministers fully aware of every step that bad been taken, and there could be no suspiciun of there being land speculation, or anything other than the prosecution of what was really a public work. Mr. Rolleston did not think any question of that sort arose at all. The Government was quite as anxious as the company could be to see the railway carried through. He thought they had met to discuss matters. Of course, if the company did noi wish to have any interview, he was their servant in the matter. He did not wish to press an interview on them. Mr. Morris suggested that the Government might expedite a settlement quicker than was being done; it was such a alow process. Dr. Campbell asked what further delay was likely to take place. They hoped to see something of finality in the matter. Mr. Bryce said he was under the impreeeion, from what had been said, that the deputation had nothing to say, arid oaly waited a reply to their letter; that reply would be given as soon as possible. Certainly, he thought Mr. Rolleston was quite prepared to indicate what the reply of the Government must be from the position the Government was in, and hethougnt that was really substantially what the deputation required. Mr. Rollestos thought there was no object in discußaing the position. As to the interview, he was glad to meet the directors, and he had no doubt if the Ministers and the deputation approached the question in the spirit he desired to approach it, the interview could not but be beneficial. Hβ would be very glad to explain the position in which the matter stood. The main feature of the question was first of all the possibility of obtaining the cession o! land from the natives. That was the attsmpt which had been made by the Government. Aβ the company was aware, they had had interviews with the natives ; they had had an experienced officer on the spot for many weeks endeavouring to obtain a cession of land from the natives; but, as was the case with all native negotiations, the definite result, which of course the company desired to have, was not easily and promptly attainable, and he thought it was only in accordance with the experience of all people whohad todo with native affairs, it wss only in accordance with that experience to fiod that there were constant difficulties arising from various circumstances in connection with negotiations for native land. The question of cession had been before the natives, and he might say that the position of endowment in that way was this, that the Government could not assume tbat they could obtain within any definite time any large concession of land from the natives. That was the position of the question of endowment. The Government at the same time had not only been doing its utmoet to get the question of endowment by cession determined, but it had at the same time taken other steps to promote the construction of the railway, partly by obtaining, as the company was aware, a cession for the line of railway, but partly also by obtaining the lands by purchase, and he was pleased to be able to say to the company tbat he thought, barring this one unfortunate point of promptitude, which was almost an impossibility in these things, that the Government was progressing steadily, and he thought eurely, towards some ultimate solution of the difficulty. He might say that, within the last few weeks, the Government bad obtained possession of land very close upon the line of railway some 5000 acres in extent, that it had some 6000 acres further in that neighbourhood; and, as the company was aware, the Government had already in its hand considerable blocks of land, which had been retained from sale, which" were available when the company was in a position a contract, and the Government was in a position to make a certain promise under the - powers entrusted to it under the Railways Construction Act. It would be impossible for the Government to give a positive and binding assurance that they would be able to give land that did not belong to them to the company, for the construction of the railway; but, as he had said they were quite willing, when the question had progressed to tbat point, that-they could deal with the company; then they would be willing and favourable to consider proposals for a contract; but they could not make a contract on circumstances over which they had no control. That, he thought, dealt first of all with the question of positive gratuitous cession by the natives, and secondly, with the position of the Government in respect to lands now held by it or under negotiation by the Government for purchase. That dealt, he thought, with the tiret part of the memorandum which the directors had forwarded: With regard to the second proposal—which etated that as the native land could not be rated, the Government would be justified in makiog good the deficiency thus arising by an extra endowment of land—the position was simply this, that the Government could only deal in accordance with the law ; a proposal outside the law, or one not in iiiinminy with it, could not be entertaine ; !■>• Mil- Government. The Government won' ..;.-. U r to acquire from the natives f;r>. . • •■„■.. ..f laud. Mr. Peacock : >■' '■■■■ <"■ "■•• obtain ? Mr. Roli.k-t'- : V- ; iliu Government could cot entiT \--r. ■ .. .•.i.ilract which it had no legal t. yive eflect to at all, and was o-Utiiio .!.<: iaw.

Mr. Clark asked if the Thermal Springs Act did not in express words give the Government authority to do the very thing the company asked, in order tbat the oountry might be opened up and developed. Mr. Rolleston knew of no power at all which enabled the Government to deal with the company in the way proposed in the second clause of the memorandum. The following is the memorandum from the directors of the company to the Government :— 1. In view or the altered state of the native mind pointing toawlllingne»» to sell land nowinsludedin the district unier ibe Thermal Springs Act, thus enabling Government to acquire suiHcient land to grant to the railway 80 per cent, o> the cost of construction, the directors propose that fJovernment entor into a contract with the company for the construction of the second section ot the railway on the basis of the company receiving from Government land equ<l to 80 par cent, of the cost or cons: ruction, in accordance with the Railway Construction and Land Act. 2. Inasmuch as the secoad section passes almost entirely through native territory which cannot be rated, and Each rate being lost to the company, it Is submitted tbat Government ii justified in making good the deficiency thus arising by an extra endowment of land, the power to grant such being covered by the Thermal Springs Act; the Government, therefore, to endeavour to acqulie from the natives a free cession of land by way of endowment in Ilea of rates ; and in the event ol the natives declining to grunt to provide the funds necessary to fulfil the conditions under which the natives are willing to cede such endowments. 3. Ihe directors beg to bo informed whether the Government will be prepared to carry out the proposal now submitted, as it is ntcessary to arrive at a definite conclusion —From the directors of the Thamos Valley and Kotoraa Railway Company (Limited). Auckland, January 7, ISSi. Mr. Clark said if the natives were prepared to give a bonus of land over and above what the Government gave under the Railways Construction Act, the Thermal Springs Aot authorised the Government to arrange for that cession. In the event of the natives declining to give land entirely free then the company asked to be allowed to find such a sum as the natives required, because from the present temper of the natives it was unlikely they would give a frea grant of land ; and instead of the Government gradually making way in the matter the position was undoubtedly worse as regards the natives than it was eighteen months ago. The temper of the natives just now wag lass favourable in regard to arrangements for the railway. Mr. Brtce said it seemed to him that this matter was one under the Railways Construction Act, which provided that land should be given up to 30 per cent. Whatever it was liable to do under that Act the Government was prepared to do. That was what he understood the decision of the Cabinet to be. But the deputation said, in addition to that, the Government should bring the Thermal Springs Act into so as further to endotv the railway. Mr. .Clabk said not to coerce the native owners, but the Government might avail themselves of the provisions of the Thermal Springs' Act to carry out the arrangements which the owners might desire to make in their own interest. Mr. Bryce said it seemed to be the intention that, after the power of the Government had been exhausted under the Railways Construction Act, they were to bring the Thermal Springe Act into operation for the purpose of further endowing the railway. He did not think tney could do this, because it waa an agreement under a certain Act, and they could not, it seemed to him, make an agreement under an Act exceeding the powers of the Act. Mr. Peacock asked if the Government would endeavour to acquire the land which they had the power to acquire in order to make up the 30 per cent. 1 Mr. Bryce : Yes. As a matter of fact the Government were endeavouring to acquire land, and as that portion of the business happened to be in his hand, be would tell the deputation how it stood. The Government had a certain endowment in the boundaries fixed by the Thermal Springs Act. ■ Mr. Stewart : 29,400 and 5700 aores. Mr. Bryce : Yes ; 5700 acres were recently acquired, the latter at any rate being good land. He might state that certain blocks in that district were in such a position that it was almost impossible to acquire them owing to the very large number of grantees who were interested in them. But there was one block of between 5000 and 6000 acres of good land they were endeavouring to acquire. There was another block of 20,000 acres in regard to which there had been negotiations. If the Government was compelled, as they probably would be, to call on the Court to determine their interest in this block, they hoped to get from 12,000 to 14,000 acres out of it. According to the estimate of the Government this would leave a deficiency of £19,000 from the 30 per cent, fie was assumiug now that they would grant the whole 30 per cent., and not a less quantity. They might or might not be in a position to acquire the remainder of that in laad. They were endeavouring, as he had said, to acquire land at the present moment, and those endeavours would go on, and supposing the Government got into a position to acquire the land and to grant the 30 per cent, to the company, it was prepared to make a contract to that effect. If the Government got the blocks he had refetrel to, and land representing £19,000, they would make the grant up to 30 cent. That would in a satisfactory way, he took it, dispose of the first question, namely, an endowment under the Railways Construction Act of 30 per cent. As to the second part of it, he agreed with Mr. Rolleston that the Government was not in a position to enter i--to a contract in reapect of that, or, rather, it could not be part of the contract under the Railways Construction Act. Mr. Clark suggested that a separate contract might be made, seeing that the Government was not required to bind itaelf positively co it, but to do what it could. Mr. Bryce said the Government had not fully considered that point, but he was fully satisfied the proposal could not be any part of the agreement under the Railways Construction Act. The Government was not in a position to give a positive assurance in an agreement that it would acquire the land. For obvioue reasons that could not be done. It might stand as it did in the agreement with the Manawatu Company—that when, or if, the Government acquired the land, the quantity would be made up. That was how it stood in the case of the Manawatu Company, and that was how it would probably stand in regard to the present company. Mr. Clakk stated the position of the compiny and its engagements. Mr. Bryoe said he had been very anxious to carry out the necessary arrangements. He put the view of the question stated by Mr. Clark very strongly indeed before the Maoris. He told them that the present generation might not see a railway there unless something was done. After some further discussion, Mr. Clark eaid they were satisfied now and had been all along that the Government could not make this arrangement. They were satisfied the natives required to be met by the agents of the company, because whether rightly or wrongly, the Government had lost the confiilence of the natives because of their administration of the land in that district. Mr. Bbyok was aware that that was the view most industriously circulated by the newspapers based on what he might term views from the district founded on falsehood. Hβ thought-Mr. Clark was wrong in hi 3 impression. Mr. Clark eaid there was an opinion of that kind, probably founded, he would not say on falsehoods, but on wrong information. Mr. Bryce : False statements ? Mr. Clark said.the feeling he had referred to was almost unanimous in the minds of the directors and a large section of the community of Auckland. In deference to the desire of the Government the directors of the company had stood aside and let the Government proceed in the matter in their own way. He suggested that the directors might be allowed now to move in the direction desired, the Government, of course, to see that the interests of the natives and the colony were preserved. After further discussion, Mr. Peicock said the matter was narrowed down to this; that the Government was willing to enter into an agreement to endeavour to acquire the 30 per cent, of land, and was also propared to endeavour to get a cession of land in lieu of rating. Mr. Bryce said as a matter of fact the Government was endeavouring to acquire cessions of land. Mr. Rolleston : And still have hopes. Mr. Peacock asked if they were to understand that the Government would enter into an agreement to endeavour to acquire free cession of land in lieu of rating the land 1 Mr. Bryce did not think the Government could make suoh an agreement. Tho Government had acquired within £19,0C0 of the 30 per cent., and would try to acquire the rest. They would entor into an agreement with the company on the same terms as that made with the Mauawatu Company. Mr. Morrin suggested that the officers of the company might assist the Government in land.

, Mr. Bryce eaid the Government had selected the officers whom they comidered beet fitted for this work. Mr. Peacock asked whether the Government had an accredited agent at Rotorua now, in order that he might be able to take advantage ot any change in the mind of the natives ? Mr. B&yoe eaid if Mr. Peacock referred to receiving a gratuitous eeaaion of land, certainly the Government had an accredited agent there, They had alao a land-purchase agent there at the present moment. After gome discussion as to the subdivision' of the land, Dr. Campbell, on behalf of the;, deputation, thanked Ministers for their' patience and oourteay, and the deputation withdrew. The interview lasted two hours. ONEHUNGA IRONSAND WORKS. Messrs. J. Chambers, T. Morrin, and J. M. Clark waited on the Hon. Mr. Rolleeton, and urged on him the importance of the lease for which the company had applied, being completed. They also brought under bis notice an application which they had made for a remission of wharfage fees on raw material for the use of the ironworks, the goods being landed on the company's own whaif at Manukau. Mr. Rollestox promised to confer with the Minister far Public Works'on the matter with a view to expedite the desired arrangements.