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SIR GEORGE GREY AT THE THAMES.

DEPUTATIONS ON FRIDAY. [by our own reporter.] WAITEKAURI ROADS. In reply to Messrs. Bleazard and Brown, His Honor stated that he would instruct the engineer to apply the money at his disposal to the best advantage for getting up their machinery as soon as practicable, and that an estimate should be made as to the cost of the shorter track, and improve it for the convenience of foot-passengers and packers. t THE WATER SUPPLY. A lengthened discussion took place as to the position of this trust, and the several parties claiming compensation for the deviation of water from the natural channel. It was ultimately agreed, on the of His Honor, that the different Highway Boards should agree among themselves, and he would bring in a bill to make it law without cost. They could easily appoint arbitrators to decide the points in dispute. BRILGE ACROSS KAUWAERANGA. In reply to a request for the erection of a foot-bridge at the booms, His Honor stated that the engineer should be iustrueted to report on the matter. MACHINE SITES ON THE FORESHORE. Applications had been received for sites on the foreshore. They had been unable to obtain them. The Provincial Government had given certain companies permission to occupy j other had to go away, though prepared to expend capital in erecting machinery. Could not leases be granted ? The foreshore had been promised to be handed over, but it had not been done. His Honor remarked that the General GoTernment had shewed a disposition to settle this question, but found it impossible to carry a bill through Parliament without fir»t consulting the residents there. He could promise the deputation that if they got all the details settled, the bill for its transference would be passed in the meantime. He would look carefully into the matter. HIGHWAY BOARD SUBSIDIES. With regard to the subsidies accruing to each district, he would ascertain the proportion falling to them, and let them know in two or three weeks. DEPUTATION ON SATURDAY. His Honor the Superintendent Sir George Grey was waited upon by several deputations at the Thames, on Saturday afternoon. The gentlemen who desired to consult with His Honor upon matters of public interest -nere received in the Engineer's office. The following is a condensed report of the deputations which were of a public character :— TARARU WHARF. The following gentlemen waited upon his Honor Sir George Grey, with reference to the Tararu wharf: Messrs. Davis (Mayor), Bleazard, Wilson, Vaughan, Ehrenfreid, Stewart, Gillespie, McCullough, Thonburn, Wm. Kowe, Wardell, Brown, and G. Graham.

The Mayor introduced the deputation and explained that their object was with reference to the Tararu wharf. The wharf had been destroyed by a heavy gale, and they were Tery desirous that it should be restored. They were aware that there were no funds for disposal, but thought that for such a work some money should oe got from somewhere. That steamers were obliged to run in accordance -with the tides was found to be most inconvenient, as a boat was now only able to make a trip every other day, and sometimes only every third day. This was a great drawback to the Thames, as many were thus prevented from visiting the Thames. There was also the inconvenience of being frequently obliged to leave early jn the morning or late at night in order that the tide may suit to reach the Grahamstown wharf. These difficulties might all be removed by the broken portions of the wharf being rebuilt. Mr. John Brown pointed to the fact that the railway would ran to Tararu wharf, and that this was the only place steamers could reach at any state of the tide. The present wharf might, he said, have answered, but it was built too low by three or four feet, and so the high tides carried portions of the structure away. His Honor remarked that it would be necessary either to remove or repair it. Upon enquiry, he found that the cost of lighting it in its present useless condition was £125 per year, and that when whole it was lighted for £50 per year.

In answer to-questions, Sir George Grey was informed by different members of the deputation that the wharf had been built by private capital, but that it had been a benefit to the public aud a loss to its owners. It was built, of necessity, by private enterprise, but the Government had recognised its public character by having it repaired once or twice. The sum collected for tolls on passengers had not nearly paid the interest on the expenditure, and no charge whatever had been made on goods. Mr. Graham had the wharf built in the early days of the goldfield, and sold it, but rebought it, in order to prevent its going to ruin, as it did not pay, and the former purchasers refused to do anything to it. The deputation did not think it necessary to have a new wharf, but merely a gangway to connect the outer part of it with the land. Mr. McLaren-, the District Engineer, considered that a new wharf was necessary, as the remaining part of the wharf was not sound, the material having been bad to commence with. He had found when he went to repair it that many of the points of the piles were not buried in the ground, and had no hold at all. Mr. Gkaiiam was of opinion that for present purposes the wharf might be connected with a gangway, and that this would allowplenty of time until the permanent work might be undertaken. He had no doubt but that shortly the foreshore would be handed over to tbe authorities, and when that was done an endowment might be set apart for the purpose of defraying the cost of a permanent wharf. A gangway, which he believed would answer this purpose, might be erected for about £000 or £700. The wharf had cost from beginning to end about £2000, and its original estimate had been £1600. Mr. McLaren was of opinion that the cost of repairing the present wharf would go far towards the erection of a new and permanent one. Sir George Grey suggested that the Borough Council should come i n with assistance. To this the Mayor replied that the Council was too heavily burdened already, but that if the foreshore was handed over to them, the building of the wharf would be one of the first claims on it. He thought the wharf might be repaired so as to make it secure for several years, by which time they would be able to deal with the question. Mr. Wm. Kowe spoke strongly in favour of repairing the present wharf until the means for the erection of a permanent structure should be forthcoming. His Honor said : I suppose we all think with you that we should do something in this matter ; but Mr. McLaren says that it would cost almost as much to do what you suggest—that is, to make it stand for more than six months—as to put up a permanent structure. If temporary provision, such as you suggest, can be made, there will be no difficulty in doing the thing at once. I feel very strongly what the deputation has said, because it is really tlfe most] important' thing the Thames can have at the present moment. I can see thai' you will not have many people here while you have such communication. I have, since being in office, seen, that the. class of steamers running to-here has fallen'off,'and if I should judge of the progress of this place simply from the falling off of your means of steam communication, I believe I should form a very unhappy opinion of what is your state of affairs.' • I believe nothing would help the place more than good wharf accommodation. I think the first thing is to see if Mr. : McLaren can devise any plan by which your wishes may be met. It would be easy to say " do it" if lie can give effect to the

wishes of the deputation, but he would not do so off-hand, and we cannot ask him to risk his character as an engineer. i Mr. McLaren : The point is this, that the cost of repairs would go so far towards a new structure that it would be best to Btrain a point and get a new one. The cost of a new wharf would be about £2000. Sir George Grey : What I really think is this, that if we can get a good wharf made it would be a pity, supposing the amount mentioned by Mr. McLaren is wrong, and that it would cost £3000, to repair the present wharf. I think it would be better to proceed slowly and get a good wharf made than to take and throw away £1200 or £1400 upon a wharf that would only last for about fourteen months. In continuing his remarks he said that they ought to attack the Borough Council, and to stir them to action. For example, the people of Timaru had got harbour plans from Sir John Coote, the greatest marine engineer of the present day. Now, why not make the Mayor and Council of the Thames apply to the Government for similar assistance, so as to have the entire plan of the harbour made. It appeared to him that the Mayor and Borough Councillors were excessively indolent, and that they ought to start upon some really great design and conception of their wants. They would find the General Government and everyone ready to help them. Just the harbour now made in Table Bay, under Coote's directions ; —the very land reclaimed had almost paid for the works. Why not-within a day or two have a meeting of the Council, and have a regular application addressed to the Government to have a proper survey of the ground made t He would back it by every mens in his power, aud had no doubt that the work would be done. . : >

The Mayor replied that the Council had certainly not been indolent, but had been c:ippled for want of funds and for want of their right—the foreshore. I£ they had had this, he thought there would have been no necessity to beg for repairs to a wharf. Sir George Grey thought there would be no difficulty even now, in raising money for such an object as that, which was for the general public "good. He had no doubt that the Assembly would'at bnee agree to that; for they had now as good as got the foreshore—it was a mere question as to whether it had been handed over or not. It would encourage the handing over of it if what he had suggested was done. It would, at all events, only be a question of a few' months until it would be made over. If they made th« application he would give them every assistance. Mr. William Kowe said that the : Mayor and Council had been anything but indolent; it was not because that they had not asked that they had not received. He considered that none had done their duty more effectually than the members of the Thames Borough, and complained that the goldfields' revenue was spent elsewhere. They had no objection to going to the Government every week; but when they asked for bread they received a stone. Sir George Grey : I think you make a mistake on one point. It is that youiave the whole of the gold revenue here—every penny. That is worth bearing in mind. Every single penny raised on the goldiields is spent here. One of the Deputation : I cannot understand that; but I am quite sure the expenses of the department ought not to be as much as the revenue. Sir George Grey: I think there is a margin of more than £8000 per year. I think you will find it so at the present moment. The estimates have been made up, and I will tell you what is estimated here. I find £11,800 is to be spent here for you from the gold revenue. A Voice : I should like to see it spent. Sir George Grey : I mean that it is to be spent, aud I have come down here to see it. The simple question is, what is the best way to do it ? Mr. Brown: A great cause of complaint was that at the last Provincial Council session no estimate was made for expenditure here, and the Treasurer said there was no money in the Treasury. This is a very satisfactory explanation.

Sir George Gkey ; I can tell you exactly what you are to have spent here,—it is £12,500, and I say that, I because it is just as well there should be no mistake upon the subject that every penny of goldfields' revenue will be spent either here or at Coromandel—on the goldfields. I thought it was only £9000, but I find it is £12,5U0. The question is, what are the best objects to spend it upon ? and that makes me hesitate about the Tararu wharf. Mr. Graham thought that plans should be first obtained, as suggested by IJis Honor, and that the Government should be asked to advance money on the foreshore, on condition that they receive the first mortgage as their security. Sir George Gkey said that he believed, for all practical purposes, the foreshore was made over to them, and repeated his suggestion that a complete plan should be got from competent engineers, as had been done at Timaru,—a plan which it would take them years to work cut. The Mayor said that they would leave the question in His Honor's hands, to do the best in the meantime. If they could have a new structure, so much the better; but if only sometkirg was done to keep up the traffic of the place, they would be satisfied. The deputation then withdrew. PASTORAL LANDS. Messrs. Brown, Vaughan, and Wilson waited upon His..Honor with reference to the desirability of opening the back country of the Thames for pastoral or agricultural purposes. Mr. Brown said that if the country at the back of Tararu and Grahamstown could be thrown open upon similar terms to the Ohinemuri country, it would confer great I advantages'upon the residents at the Thames. There was a considerable number of cattle running about, and if there was any certainty of tenure, much of the land at rte back of the township would be occupied. The feeling was that the land referred to was as fine as that at Ohinemuri, and many would be inclined to go there if it was open upon the usual terms for their selection. Of 'course, they only required it subj ject to the Goldfields Regulations. i His Honor said that ho had had re--1 peatedly deputations of this kind, and had j always expressed his desire to comply with the request wherever there was no absolute i barrier to his doing so. Some of the land was so tied up that it could not be touched. Regarding several blocks referred to, by : previous deputations, he had received ,unI favourable answers. However, the General Government had recently acquired new blocks, and there might be some of them suitable. He would immediately communicate with the Government respecting the matter, which he thought was of importance, and the request should, if possible be complied with. SIR GEORGE GREY'S ADDRESS/ His Honor the Superintendent, Sir George Grey, addressed the Thames electors, in the Theatre Royal, Grahamstown, on Saturday evening last. About fifteen hundred persons were present. The stalls, pit, gallery, and even the stage, was crowded long before Sir George Grey entered the building. Upon 'His .Honor making his appearance he was received with echoiug cheers from all sides, and those who were riot already standing rose to greet him... Mr. La'wlor "was proposed to take the chair. ' • -..; - Mr. T. W. Gudgeon proposed that the Mayor take the .chair, , ; This was - seconded by •' Mr. -Wm.' J., Speight, and carried. ; The Mayor took the chair, and said : Gentlemen, —Ibis-meeting has been called with the view of giving Sir George Grey (an opportunity of addressing the electors of the Thames.'- laih'-only : srirry that Sir George Grey upon his arrival here did not come under Jnore favourable circujtfistances than he did. I just wish to set myself right, as we'l as some of the public, in regard to the meeting called to receive Sir George Grey here., I believe that if a public meeting had been , properly called, Sir George Grey's reception ! would hare been such as we should all think I

him worthy to have -welcomed him back to the Thames. Gentlemen, it', is needless for me to speak of Sir George Grey in flattering terms. look, upon .Him, as. we always hare done, asa iriah able and willing to perform his duty, and he-will, without doubt,' do so.to the best of his ability. To a great extent he has performed his duties as a statesman and a3 a thorough gentleman.' Unfortunately, gentlemen, we nave happened to differ from him on one essential poiot, and he, as leader of the Oppesition, cannot tkere : fore expect us, perhaps, to receive him as he was received in Auckland, in conformity to the public wishes. Still, at the same time, as our Superintendent, I am sure that 1 echo the wish of everyone when I we 1 - come him here. Now, he has but a shore tune to remain, so I will a t once call upon bir George Grey to be kind enough at once to deliver his promised address

Lir George Grey, who was received with loud and enthusiastic applause; said : Mr. Mayor and gentlemen,—l appear before you hers to-night, as your Superintendent.' | —(cheers) —as the person specially charged with your welfare, in regard to all administrative questions. When asked to address you, I explained, in the most I distinct manner, that that was the character [ in which it was my duty to appear before | you. Yon will remember that when many of the inhabitants of this province wished | me to become the Superintendent of the province of Auckland, I then appeared before you and explained unhesitatingly my views upon all points in regard to which you were interested. On that occasion I had the pleasure of seeing my friend the Mayor in the chair,—(cheers.) a gentleman whom I have known and appreciated for a good many years. He has devoted himself to your service, and to him I trust you are all grateful for what he has done. . He, in reference to Grahamstbwn, holds somewhat the same position which I do with regard to the whole province, that is, he is the chief administrative officer here. I have done my utmost to help him in the performance of his duties, and I have done so with a view to your welfare, and also I must admit to some extent from the personal regard for himself—a regard based, as I tell you upon an acquaintance of many, many years. Well, I now appear again before you as your Superintendent to again fulfil what I understand to be your desire, that is, that 1 should address you with regard to what was done for 'your interests during the last session of the General Assembly, and that I should point out to yon what I think this part of the province of Auckland requires to be done for it under present ■circumstances, with a view to the future welfare of its inhabitants generally, and of the mining population in especial. Now, with regard to what passed in the General Assembly. As you are well aware, I was not your representative, and in that respect you had no special claim, as it were, upon my attention, but knowing the Thames district to have been what I thought scandalously non-represented— (cheers),—having only one member allowed to its vast population, while, comparatively speaking, villages had as many as two or three representatives in some cases, I felt it my duty to give your representative—your one representative—every possible assistance in doing that which we judged your interests required us to do. As you are aware, between him and myself a difference existed upon some political questions ; but hardly any difference ever existed between us upoi any point which concerned your welfare ; and. 1 need not tell you that when .we had to consider questions of that kind, 1 that is, questions concerning the interests of the population of the Thames, we let greater political questions cause no difference whatever between us. I therefore can assure yon that it was impossible that I could have done i more, under any circumstances, to promote your interests in the A ssembly than I endeavoured to do last session. (Cheers.) First of all, upon the subject of your representation : As yon are aware, a second member has been given to yon. In justice you are entitled to three members at least—in fact, in proportion to the population here, a greater number than that might, with very great fairness and impartiality, have beengiven. For reasons which I myself cannot understand, it was determined by those in power that you should only have two representatives, and that number you are to have for the future. I can only say again, with reference to your representatives, that you may rely upon it that even if I was not Superintendent of the province, I should still give your representatives, whoever they may be, every assistance in my power to procure what is good and necessary for yourselves. (Loud cheers.) Now, I would wish to explain one point to you, that there may be no misunderstanding upon the subject, and that is, what the line of action was which I Wowed in reference to what is termed " the question of the abolition of the provinces ;" and I do this that you may know exactly the view that the Superintendent of this province took. What I contended for was this : that the Constitutional law of the Empire required that no great change of that kind should take place until the constituencies had been appealed to, and that was the one point upon which I had the assistance of so many powerful and influential minds, so that at last we succeeded in gaining that privilege for the constituencies of New Zealand, namely, that they themselves are to be heard upon these most momentous questions, and the future destinies of the colony now lie in your own hands. I tell you, as I have stated to all other persons throughout New Zealand to whom 1 have spoken, that my own views upon this question, after years of reflection, after repeated conversations with some of the greatest minds of the present age—some of whom have now departed to another world —after giving the utmost attention to it, my own views are entirely and unalterably fixed as to what will be best for yourselves and for the human race in future. But every man in the world must know this, that lie cannot have all things ever his own way ; that if people are bent upon any particular project,, he can only do his best to instruct them, to endeavour to win them to agree with himself; but when once their determination is made up, it is the duty of every good citizen to accept whatever form of government may be formally established by the will of the people—(cheers)—and, utterly forgetting himself, to do his best to render that form of government productive of the happiness and welfare of the community at large. It is not for any single individual to decide himself how men are to be governed. I throughout have contended that it is for the people themselves to decide that, and when they have decided, that it is the duty of every citizen to conform to the form of government setup, and to do his best to render the public prosperous and contented under that form, and you may rely upon it that is the course I will pursue. (Cheers.) -But let me tell you again, that in your future Constitution there will be certain main features to which, I think, you should pay great attention, and insist upon those features being introduced into your Constitution, and being constantly and permanently kept in view. Now, the one thing that is most essential, in my mind, is this, that there should be :no secrecy in the Government—(cheers), —that every action of the Government should-take place before the public eye, and that the fullest information should be supplied to the public upon all points. (Hear, hear.) And this will, be, a very difficult matter to attain, but it is a thing you should all insist upon being attained in the greatest possible degree.- At the present moment the population of New Zealand know little or nothing of- matters,most-important to their own interest, and under the form of goverment existing here, ■ that isj a Government sitting in so- distant a locality, with nothing like a Press capable-of disseminating information throughout: the- country. Now, in saving that, I make no comment upon the general conducting ofjtho JPress, because many! of them are friends of my own, and I can assure you, that in ability and disinterestedness,, they, equal the • members of any Press in any country in 'which T'liave ever been; but to bring out Buch a newspaper - as the Times, or one of the other great London newspapers, in which every

speech, and every step of the Govern- • ment is reported, requires the expenditure o£ an enormous ram of, money,—so vast a sum o£ money that the population of New Zea-i land are not capable of supporting a paper of that kind, and you cannot therefore expect the same facilities in that direction as are enjoyed by the people of Great Britain. The necessary result of this is, to take one instance, some of the most important committees which sat last session—committees upon whioh. the-whole future welfare of the Thames district depends—are comparatively unknown to yoc ; for instance, the committee that sat ta investigate the questions connected with the Tairua. (Cheers.) I believe that at the present moment no copy of the proceedings of that committee has reached this district, and in truth your whole future in some respects hangs upon those proceedings. Indeed, such was the difficulty of getting matters of this kind printed at ■Wellington, that it was with the greatest difficulty I, -who was chairman of that committee, was only able to obtain two copies of it—quile as a favour. You will see, from that cause alone, that it is quite impossible you can be put in possession of that information-which you require, unless some adequate and different means from those now in existence are adopted, and I think that, in pursuit of your own interest, you should carefully watch for some possible means by which you may have all necessary information afforded to you without any delay. Now that is one point I have alluded to, but there are other, matters close to us that under the present form of government are not to my Kind sufficiently explained. In any other country in which I have been, if there was a question of acquiring lands for the public, every step taken in reference to the acquisition of such lands would be known from day to day to the whole population. Everybody would know what chanee there was of purchasing, in what block of land it was, at what date the purchase was likely to be completed, what was the nature of the land it contained, and what parts of the land would be offered for sale. [A Voice: " It wouldn't do to know that in this country."] Well, unlessyouhave information of that kind, it is quite certain you can never possibly look after your own interests in this respect. I know that even Provincial Governments—the Superintendents of provinces, who are the persons mainly interested in such subjects, can obtain no information of it, and you should, I think, see that, when a future form of government is set np, alterations are made in that direction. It is my duty to give you points of this kind, in which -your own welfare is so completely and mainly concerned. Then there is another point which has particularly occurred to me since I have been here, which 1 _ think requires very careful consideration upon your part. Now, that is the question of what are called endowments which are to be given to your Road Boards, and I speak seriously this to all of you—to you, gentlemen, upon the platform, and to all others here, —because it is a point which I have never seen touched upon, and I was anxious to delay touching upon it till I came here ; because it is one of the cardinal points, in my mind, in reference to that subject upon which your whole future welfare hangs. You are aware it is proposed to give you what are called " endowments," and, as I have pointed out elsewhere, these endowments consist of taxes to be taken out of your own pockets. (Cheers and laughter.) To some extent I should not object to that system under a different mode of taxation, but you will see presently why I particularly object to it as a general principle, and why I considered that, actiDg in your own special interest, it was my duty to object to the utmost of my power to such endowments as were proposed in that form. Now, just consider for one moment—let us take, for example, the Middle. Island and the Boad Boards there. That is a country occupied either by farmers upon, comparatively speaking, farms of no very great extent, or by large pastoral tenants of the Crown—in some cases by gentlemen who have purchased very considerable properties from the Crown. These Road Boards—like Koad Boards here —are only allowed to rate property to a certain amount;—that is, they are not allowed to lay very heavy hands upon the large proprietors. (Cheers and laughter.) Well, I object to that, but I object to something much more in your own case. You will see this, that they can tax all lands to the small extent to which they are allowed to tax them, and I hope that under my directions and by the directionsof my friends they will have additional power given them by which they will be able to get more from largo landed proprietors, who ought to pay more than they do. Now, just follow me in this. When in the Middle Island in that way they have raised one pound by these rates—two pounds is to be given them from the general revenue of the whole colony—from taxes raised from yourselves as well as from anyone else, — paid by taxes upon tea, sugar, clothes, — paid by the children for their sugar-plums and lollypops. Out of taxes so raised they will get two pounds for every one pound raised by local taxation. But, now, what are you _ to do here in the midst of a great native population ? If you were to try to make them pay taxes of that kind they would not like you to have roads through their territory. You will bo able to raise only very slight sums in this way, and those sums only near the towns, so that you will get little in the form of the one pound, and, in comparison, hardly anything at all in the form of the two pounds ; but you will go on contributing from your earnings, to be given to the rest of New Zealand. I do not know if I have made it quite clear upon that point and how your interests here hang upon that question. This is a matter which may still be avoided to a great extent by a change in the system of taxation. It is to make the taxes fall upon property in the way that it does not now—(loud cheers), —and by taking care that what are called " endowments," are given to the people in some proportion. I will briefly touch on one point now, in regard to what I mean, which I will allude to more fully hereafter. Now, what I say is that our wants in this part of New Zealand are much greater than the wants in other parts of New Zealand, and wants of a kind which entitle us to the sympathy which has not hitherto been extended to us. For instance, I Bee we are on excellent terms with the native population now—that' is, with the great mass of them, —at least, the greater part of them in our- vicinity. Nothing would have tended more to giveUß-power to consolidate that state of things existing between us and the natives than to give us ra ; lroads here as in the South ; whereas; we have hardly any railroads,- and yet we have to defray the same part of the cost of these railroads as is defrayed-by-the-personswho-have them., T will go more at large now into that point. As an example of what I mean, let a railroad run from here to the Waikato. What a different position we should all be in ? (Cheers.) Imagine the strengthening that it would give to these two communities— what I may call the great community of the Thames, and the rapidly augmenting European community of the Waikato.:. If within so short a period they could then communi--cate with each other, just consider the growth of commerce that would be given .to this . place, if only the produce of the Waikato could be poured down into it by the —railroad. ... Conceive the population it would probably attract:to < these shores, and you will see that the railroad would remove all : chance of' further collision between the natives and the European population of this country.. That; is what I mean by saying we have claims-upon -the sympathy of New Zealand generally, :which have notihitherto> .been l sufficiently: recognised. (Cheers.) In' connection withtbat point—because it bears oh the question of Super-' ihterident,T ought tospeakto you upon one or two, other subjects;, You ' are , ! .all aware that I '. think > in my own-inind'that, the gold duty ought to have been taken off. I was told that my proposal for that purpose was exceedingly unpopular here. [Cries of " No, no !"-AA/ Voice :. " Oiflyi.'"by\. two in the corner!"] I will state what was generally alleged in the General Assembly of New

Zealand, and answered to-me always. But that there may be no misunderstanding on the question, I wish first to- reason it,out with you. Now, the reason alleged- in lavour of the maintenance of that gold duty was that,, by raising it, £2 for every £1 contribute* to the gold reverse would be given for public works to the people of the Thames. I may be wrong or I may no* be wrong; but I did not believe myself that that sum of money would ever be contributed for more than one year at the most. (Cheers.) I believed, that, when you came to-pay L million of interest on your debt, whicTyou will have to do in a year or so, it would b* found very difficult to get the necessary suma of money to pay these large endowmentw.prpposed without a total change of taxation; and I saw no chance of that change of taxation taking place. I also felt this, that the taxation was excessively unfair taxation," ana I heard no reason whatever alleged to the contrary. I wish to make no -misrepresentation of the reasons given; in fact, they amounted simply to this, that it was a duty very easily levied, that the people had got accustomed to it, and the Colonial Treasurer said in the most positive manner that the incidence of the tax was this,—that it only took fivepence a-day from the wages of each miner. Well, now, that created a very great sensation. The statement was deliberately made, and it created a great sensation because I put it in this form, that it amounted to something considerably mora than a loaf of bread a-day to every-miner's family, and then they answered me that the calculation was wrong. This was found out by another gentleman when he found the sensation produced. He said that the Colonial Treasurer had made a mistake (a thing he certainly ought not to have done),' and that it only amounted to three halfpence per day from each miner, and he said that it was not altogether a hard tax, because in the winter, when they could not work in tho mines, the tax would then afford means-to employ them. If that argument meant anything at all it was this, that so much was to be taken from them in the summer to make them pay themselves for works ing in the winter. (Loud cheers and laughter.) Well, all this, instead of convincing me, as they thought it ought to have done, only confirmed me in my own opinion, and I will still do my very utmost, to get that duty taken off, and all those present can testify that the-Assembly wa3 very angry with me; but what brought me into the greatest disgrace of all was this, that I said, "If some special taxation is to be put on, give me a halfpenny in the pound on wool instead of this," upon which a gentleman in the Assembly, who was largely interested in pastoral pursuits, rose and said that a great mistake had been made by the people,—they had believed it was tha greatest blessing I had come back from private life, and he thought that it was the greatest misfortune that had ever occurred. (Loud and prolonged cheers, and laughter.) Well, now, I still tell .you I am confirmed in my own opinion that this duty upon gold is not a good system of taxation. (A Voice s " You are quite right.") That is my belief, that a bpecial tax of that; kind upon a commodity found in such a fluctuating manner is not a proper or judicious tax to impose, and yon will all bear in mind there is no excuse here for the imposition of such a tax. It was imposed in the Australian colonies when there was a very turbulent, and what I may,, call rude, lot of people collected there from all parts of the world ; when an enormous police force was necess-ary, when robberies and murders were of frequent occurrence, and, I hardly like to say so, but I believe that the tax looks very much like a reflection upon you. We have only about eight policemen here, certainly not more than ten, and I do not think it is necessary to raise a great many thousand pounds in order to keep them, and I do think that it 5-. hard that the labouring portion of the population of the Thames should be taxed in that direct manner when in all other parts of New Zealand the population are allowed to go free. The miner pays the gold duty—in this district some £13,000 a-year; he pays, also, the same taxes as all the other inhabitants of the colony. From these latter taxes in every other portion of New Zealand, the Government executes all the public works it carries on. In this gold mining district the gold duty is returned to it as a boon to be expended on public works. But a very smp'l portion of the ordinary taxation which paya for Government public works is in consequence spent here ; the gold revenue takes its place. In this respect the goldfielda hero are, therefore, far worse off than any other portion of the colony, and are not justly treated. The gold revenue being returned to them as a boon, distracts, in fact, their attention from their just rights on the ordinary revenue of the colony. Observe, also, that the miner takes from tho public nothing which the whole community could readily utilise. He takes no product from the surface of the soil, accessible to all. What he takes is by bin o-n u hard labour won from the bowels of the eai fch. The squatter, on the other hand, by tte means of cattle and sheep, takes from the surface of the earth the natural product which is accessible to all, —and which would yield far more wealth to the many than the few, and would enrich most adequately large numbers, instead of enormously enriching a very small number—which is the common property of all, which all have an equal claim to, which vast numbers desire to bo allowed to utilise and could do so to the advantage of all, and which is now to an enormous extent wasted and lost to mankind, from being as a monopoly to a very few," instead of being improved and augmented by being thrown open to the industry of thousands. Which, therefore, is most justly liable to an export duty—gold or wool! Well, then, another subject of the same kind, regarding which I was assured I was entirely opposing popular opinion, was my desire that the taxes should be taken off the immediate necessaries of life. They called me a verygreat many hard names about that which, to them, appeared to be a kind of mad philanthropy, but the odd thing was that all the greatest statesmen in England have done the very same thing; that is, taxes have been entirely taken off sugar, also reduced to almost to nothing upon tea, and upon flour the duty was removed. Knowingthat that would have taken off something like £125,000 a-year from the population in New Zealand, I mentioned that it would be giving a loaf a-day to every family, and that it would be a good thing fer parents to knowthat their children might have as many puddings and pies as they like, with as much sugar as they wanted, and that they would be saved from paying that enormous sum. You must recollect that the amount of the taxation does not represent what yon have 'to pay at all. You have to pay the cost of bonding those goods, and interest upon the taxes, the cost of collecting them, and to pay a great number of clerks to keep books, and the largest staff in the world, in accordance with the. business, I -believe, to look after those clerks in YVellington to see that they do not cheat the public. Yon will see, therefore, that you have to pay a great deal more than the taxes represent in r other ways. Every fresh tax of that class calls into existence with it a large number of taxcollectors, and a large number of people to look after _ all" these things, ajid that; tha more we simplify' our taxation and reduce such enormous taxes, the better. ' I iwas therefore extremely anxious to see this done, and I was told that in doing so I was rendering inyself obnoxious to the'people of New Zealand. [A Voice: "No such thing."J These points are what I may say, are not strictly political, because any Government may carry them, and any party may assist; but it is really right that you should deliberate upon questionsr of, this kind, and make up your, minds as to what is .to be done with regard to them in the future,^J-hpwthe:alter-ations in the taxation I have. told yo» ,of .- could;; be so; made. I am-sura that ■everyone will inform you; that; an x enpnn»Uß reduction-may ;be -made. diture, arid that is one point.='':ihe-rnext is that by a totally different system of taxation —a system by which property would /contribute to some extent as far as r it ought the public burdens may be lightened, and a (lor centmmtiM of news m B*&>lem«nt,)

much larger revenue may be raised, pressing much more lightly upon the people at large, and requiring less machinery to collect it. I, therefore, as your Superintendent, earnestly advise you, in informing your minds in regard to" the future, to take care that the cardinal points —first, the reduction of the expenditure ; and secondly, an alteration in t j;e manner of taxation—are carried out flit-h the least possible delay. I talk of the reduction of the expenditure. Many of you tt-ill hardly know what your expenditure is. I can only tell you that as a member myself —and I am quite sure every other member of the Assembly will tell you the same thing _ I found it impossible almost to ascertain what was the expenditure or anything near it. For instance, in the case of the >*ative Department. (Cheers.) In the case of the Native Department there are enormous sums expended. There was one single item of £SOOO, which was absolutely and entirely unexplained—a lurnp sum of fSOOO for contingent purposes ! I asked curiously about that, anxious to get what information I could. We had been voting the salaries of officers, and I can assure you that on the part of the Assembly there was no desire to act illiberally towards the public servants, and, with the exception of the salaries paid to one or two officers, almost every one was carried as put down, and we were not told—[A Voice : " We should like to reduce some of the largeone3."]—that any additional salary was required for anybody, and when I asked what this £SOOO was to be employed in, I was told that— well, for instance, an officer there has an additional salary of £50 given to him for attending to the natives. The real fact of it is that it is impossible, I believe, in one instance, to tell the manner in which those sums are disbursed until they come before the Audit Department. They are voted in what I may call block sums, and I think that you should insist for the future that in all departments there are the most full and ample details given, and that there are no large amounts like that to be employed by any persous whatever. I am sure that is an absolute necessity, and my own belief is that, if that is not done, the system at present in force must grow—and these things grow with a rapidity you can hardly conceive. People get into the habit of doing certain things, and the Assembly gets into habits too. Just think, at two o'clock in the morning, or after, I have begged to go away. I have been there at one o'clock in the afternoon, to attend committees, and at two o'clock in the morning I have asked to go out, and it was almost invariably at that hour these, sums were brought forward and hurried through. Now, what I tell you would be told you by anybody who was there. W r ell, then, in further illustration of what I mean, —the usual rule in Assemblies is, that committees should be constituted in a peculiar way. Formerly, in England, in the one case of Election Committees, they were most unfairly and unjustly constituted. Members of one party were, if possible, put in it by a majority, and they used to vote that their own man should be elected. This became so great an abuse that the power was taken from the Parliamentary committees and given to the Judges; and this is now the case in England in reference to those committees. But, in all their committees in the House of Commons, no effort of that kind is made, and if ever a Minister is found wrong in his department, and an enquiry is being made into the conduct of that department, the Minister does not go upon that Committee—at the the most some Under-Secretary of State represents him. Here, on the contrary, in the Assembly the committees have to a great extent a majority placed in them of persons who take particular views—in fact, were not chosen by ballot but by individuals. I think, if possible, you should direct your minds to that subject, to secure in some manner or other that the committees of the Assembly should be so constituted that perfectly impartial tribunals shall be obtained. Now, T confess it would be impossible for me almost, acting with a party, not to take party views upon many subjects, and I do not think that, for myself and in any party, I ought to be allowed to have a majority on any committee. I spea'i against myself as well as against others when I say I think that some means should be devised by which thoroughly impartial tribunals shall be obtained to decide upon questions brought before commMtees, and 1 recommend you thoughtfully to devote your attention to that subject. I find the time goes, and, therefore, I must hurry on to speak of your own future. Now, I wish particularly to consider the future of the Thames district. (Hear, hear.) As this is a point upon which you will all have quite as full knowledge as myself, you will know whether my statements, as far as concerns this district, are strictly accurate, as I trust they will be so, and you will be perfectly well capable of judging whether what I address for your consideration are measures which are almost certain to promote your welfare. What I wish to say at first is this*: You all know that this place was created by the mining interest, and by what I may call a rush of mining population to this place. You all know that in a fluctuating and uncertain manner gold has been found—sometimes in almost marvellous quantities in particular places ; at other times in, comparatively speaking, small lots ; but that upon the whole, beyoud all doubt, the yield of gold has been wonderfully steady to ■what it is in most mining districts. Now, my own conviction is this; that the best places for gold here have never yet been struck. (Hear, hear.) I believe that the place has never been half prospected. I believe that much greater finds for the next century, or century and a-half, will be made than have been made to the present day. But I believe that your chance of finding gold depends upon the magnitude of your population, and that if your population decreases, exactly in proportion as it does decrease, will your chance of doing well, even as miners, diminish. I think the larger your population is the greater the prosperity, the greater the discovery of gold, and the greater the progress to every one in the place. The question in my mind is, how will you augment 3 T onr population and increase it ? It is of no use bringing labourers in, because at the present moment you have not lands to put them on. You are not in possession of a great farming district like the South, where any man can buy a farm and employ labourers ; but if any great number of immigrants were sent here, they would impoverish you. I mean, for instance, if a great number of carpenters were sent here—more than i " 1 find employment—it would seriously iu<_--: ''"i competition, and then to make those u._,.-- 1 pay for bringing the others to compete wita them would be hardly fair. With the mining prospects that you have, I think everything should be done for you to render your place a growing place. First of all, I have spoken upon the subject of lands ; and I tell you that some distance in the interior, and up your lovely river— a river suited, for every purpose of inland navigation,—there is an abundance of good land, but I believe, if you do not look to it, that almost every bit of it will pass into the hands of private individuals by the assistance of the Government. (Cheers.) That is my conviction.; and I believe this, that if you do not get a railroad made to the Waikato very soon, you will not get one until every acre of land along the line of road is owned by some favoured individuals. I recommend, therefore, the people of the Thames to insist, which they may very well do, upon the construction of the railway between this and the Waikato river. Now, J would point out that the answer perhaps that will be made to that is this :—" Well,wc are sorry there are no longer any funds ; you should have spoken sooner. The whole of the millions we have borrowed are gone —that is, they are pledged to certain railroads. But that really is no valid answer, because, as I will tell yon, in many other colonies the system that Governments make

the railroads upon is by contractors in a way that has never been followed here. The plan is this,—that the Government wishing a line of railroad made, has it surveyed. An engineer is then sent to roughly estimate the cost of the railway. Then they will call for tenders m Great Britain and the colonies for the construction of the railway, stating the facts I have told you—the length of the railway, the nature of it and of the ground it has to go over, and the estimate of its cost; and they have gone on to say " that they will receive tenders upon a certain date for the construction of the line, guaranteeing to make it to pay interest of 6 per cent., the Government having the power to see that it is properly conducted. Then tenders are sent in, and the lowest accepted. The result of that has been that the Government has not been required to do anything at all, because the company has managed to | make better than six per cent, out af the railway, and nothing has had to be paid. But you will see that if two per cent, had to be paid, that would be nothing like the amount to be paid for the construction and maintenance of the roads themselves ; whereas the benefit of such a railroad to this community would be beyoud all count. No one can tell the degree to which it would promote your prosperity. I believe that if, by making the railroad, you got into the back couutrj% and saw the land there, you would look out and take care that the land was not made away with by the Government. Why, many of you would like to get land there yourselves, and an interest in your minds would be excited which is not there now. To a great many of you that land is like the moon. I suppose the men I address have never passed over the country, and seen what magnificent homes might be created on it, and the large population it would maintain. I therefore advise the good people of the Thames to do their utmost, through their representatives, and the Mayor and Borough Council will, I know, help them to the very utmost, to aid me in getting the Government to agree to such a plan as I have spoken of—(loud cheers) —and to get such a railroad made at once. (Continued cheers.) Well, then, now in connection with that l will pass to another point. The people of every part of New Zealand are determined to have harbours made, and some of them to have harbours made in the most unlikely and most difficult places. You can hardly imagine the difficulties that attach to some of their plans. W r ell,now, hereyou have really extraordinary facilities for the construction of great marine works, and I can assure you that in this, as the Mayor told me to-day, himself and Borough Council will give every assistance in their power, and give their minds to it. He himself has been a nautical man, and although I had a joke with them to-day about not having thought of it before, I am perfectly certain that his nautical proclivities will make him go ahead into a matter of this kind to the very utmost of his abilities. With regard to how you are to do that there is no difficulty in the world, because it has been settled that an endowment, the value of which I can hardly calculate, is to be given to this place ; and to a certain extent it is a real endowment. It is not to be taken out of your own pockets— many of which, I have no doubt, are very deep. But it is to be taken out of a much deeper place :it is taken out of the sea. It has been settled that the foreshore is to be given over for purposes of public works of that kind, and there is therefore a likelihood that you will have means at once of building harbours, jetties, and of employing very considerable population in carrying out works of that kind. Now, you will see that if you begin work of that kind, and with endowments of that sort, you may bring in a labouring population, for then you will have something for them to work upon, instead of interfering with, and what I may call despoiling, the present community. They will fall into their places at once. And if, in conjunction with works of that kind, and with a population so introduced, you get large tracts of land at the head of the river Thames, where the people can get farms if they please to settle, why you will get popution in this country instead of driving them ; out of it. Why, when Igo to Otago, what do I see ? Everywhere smiling farms, kept by miners. They had not ran away from Otago when the gold failed, and" made the best of their way off to some other country. On the contrary, they had established prosperous homes, because everywhere about them there were lauds upon which they could fix their homes. In connection with these two plans, to a certain extent, the benefits are not to be obtained unless you lay down another golden rule—l think it a golden rule ; of course I may be wrong, and some may think it is not so, but that it is other material of a worthless kind, 1 believe it is golden—and that rule is iliis : that if anyone seeks compensation for being disappointed with the natives, and should say that the natives had sold him some land and not put him into possession, and if he had entered into some quasi contract, my advice is this, —say, whatever the law says a man shall have he must have ; that must be respected. But when a man has no lawful right to take public lands, he shall not have them, they are wanted for the people. But, upon the other hand, if he has suffered any wrong, or has any claim, let it be fairly investigated, and let a sum of money be given to him; but giving compensation for land, I think you should say, is a very dangerous thing. Mr. So-and-So says, " Oh, give me such a block of land in compensation." It may be worth three or four times more than his claim, although, comparatively speaking, of little use to him, but if whole tracts of country are taken in that way, any colony must be ruined ; whereas, if money is paid, he has that which he can buy land with, if he choose ; he has that with which he can make any other undertaking, or he may invest it and live upon the interest. The whole community aie suited in that way, and no one is wronged ; but you may depend upon it that to allow your lauds to be taken wholesale in the way they are is nothing more nor less than to say that your population must leave these shores and go elsewhere to places where they can get land. (Cheers.) I have now only about seven minutes to reach the steamer. I have really told you that which lay near my heart as the conviction that it was for your own good to hear. I have desired in every way to point out to you the things to which I think your attention should be really directed. My object has not been to irritate one miud against another, or to raise any party question amongst you, but fairly, fearlessly, aud fully to state to you those points which I think you ought to follow out in the pursuit of your own welfare, and in following out which, I assure you, I will assist you to the utmost of my ability and power. (Loud cheers.) So saying, and thanking you all for your conduct towards myself by your unanimous vote, putting me in the position of influence which you did, by returning me as Superintendent of this province—l say, thanking you most sincerely, individually I wish you good-by, and will promise very shortly to visit you again. (Prolonged cheers.)

Mr. J. Caweli. came forward and said : Mr. Mayor and fellow-colonists, —I beg to move the following resolution, "That this meeting tenders its hearty thanks to his Honor Sir George Grey for the admirable address just delivered, and, having the highest opinion of his abilities as a statesman, together with full confidence in his integrity and honesty of purpose, endorses the numerouslysigned requisition for Sir George Grey to allow himself to be nominated for the electoral district of the Thames as one of its representatives in the next Assembly." [The reading of this motion was received with cheers, hisses, cries of "No, no !" "Yes, yea I" and general confusion.] The mover, exhibiting the requisition, said .- That contains 750 names. - - ' Mr. Lawlob seconded the motion. ' Mr. Bagnall attempted to address •; the meeting against the motion, but could, not obtain a hearing/ and as he said he had; not

an amendment, he was ruled by the chair to be out of order. ■"•' He was greeted with cries of" Sit down! sit down !" - The Chairman put it to the meeting whether they would hear Mr. Bagnall, but the question resulted in confusion, some shouting " No" and others " Yes." Mr. Bagnall still attempted to address the meeting, but all that could be distinguished was : Gentlemen, —This requisition has gone about in a way I am confident Sir George Grey does not approve of. The Mayor : Gentlemen, —The time has come when Sir George must leave, and he wishes to bid you all good night. Sir George Grey-. I will only say good night to you. I must catch the steamer. You may rely upon it that all I can do to promote your interests I will do. A Voice : And he'll stand for the Thames. (Loud cheers.) j Sir George Grey was cheered repeatedly ] and heartily as he.made his way from tha J hall to the steamer, which was waiting for i .him at the wharf.

Permanent link to this item

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH18751206.2.17

Bibliographic details

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4388, 6 December 1875, Page 3

Word Count
10,532

SIR GEORGE GREY AT THE THAMES. New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4388, 6 December 1875, Page 3

SIR GEORGE GREY AT THE THAMES. New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4388, 6 December 1875, Page 3

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