HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4336, 6 October 1875, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

[PRESS AGENCY.] "Wellington, Tuesday. DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL. The House last evening resumed the debate upon the Debtors and Creditors Bill in committee, and went' through, with the principal amendments—being the strikingout o£ the provision as to after-acquired property. STAMP DUTIES FILL. The Stamp Duties Bill was nearly all passed through, committee before progress was reported. The stamps on promissory notes were made uniform, being reduced from sixpence and one shilling to one penny on demand; the ten shilling stamp on charter party was reduced to one shilling. VARIOUS MEASURES. The following bills passed,:—lmprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill Amendment Bill, Fraudulent Debtors Bill. REPRESENTATION BILL. The adjourned debate on the Representation Bill was taken up by Mr. CUTHBERTSON. The debate occupied the House the remainder of the sitting. Mr. Cuthbertson said the bill was far from perfect, but he hoped, to see it amended in committee, and being a step in the right direction he would I second the reading. The question was very ! difficult to deal -with from any particular basis, either of population, area, or property. The arrangement regarding Timaru and Napier might be amended in committee if unsatisfactory to the House. Mr. HARRISON recognised in the bill an attempt, though only partial, to deal out justice to districts , , at present inadequately represented, notably so as regarded the West Coast. Mr. SWANSON would not oppose the second reading, but dwelt at some length upon the details of the bill, to shew that Auckland was not fairly dealt with when cumpared with Hawke's Bay, Taranaki, and Timaru, and hoped that in committee the Government would take from the over-repre-sented districts to give [to sented ones. Mr. O'NEILL would support the second reading, but strongly urged another additional member being given to the Thames. Mr. KELLY would support the bill if Gisborne and the districts south of it were included in the Hawke's Bay district, in consequence of its having been granted another member. Mr. ANDREW supported the second reading, though he disapproved of the principle upon which additional representation had been granted. Mr. REID deprecated increased representation, though he admitted the great difficulty of dealing viith the adjustment of representation. He hoped some other plan of equalising representation would be discovered. He was opposed to Napier having another member. Mr. MERVYN supported the bill, but was not satisfied with its provisions. Mr. O'CONOR aiso supported the bill, but spoke at considerable length to shew the unfairness of the proposed arrangement, especially to the Buller district, and generally regarded the measure as a poor evasion of the expectations,the Government had led the colony to expect with regard to the elections for next Parliament. Mr. FITHERBERT moved the adjournment of the debate. The House 1.15 a.m. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30 p.m. OHINEMURI COMMITTEE. The SPEAKER .mentioned that the New Zealand Times had printed the report of the Ohinemuri Committee that morning, but he was unable to find out by whose fault it had occurred. It had been brought up, laid on the table, and sent down to the printingoffice, and he was unaware any copy had left the House. He regretted the report had been published, as it had been done without the leave or wish of the House. Mr. T. KELLY said the evidence had also been published. i The matter dropped. ' AUCKLAND AND WAIKATO RAILWAY. Mr. DIGNAN asked if the Government intended to connect the Auckland and Waikato railway with the Queen-street wharf at Auckland. Mr. ATKINSON did not clearly understand the exact meaning of the question, but he might state that the railway wharf proper was being constructed, and would be worked" entirely by the Harbour Board. There were several proposals now under'consideration I for taking the line into Auckland. ! IMMIGRATION. In reply to Mr. W. Kelly, the TREASURER said the Government had investigated the system introduced by the captain of the ship Rodney, for securing the health and safety of immigrants, with a view to its adoption in other ships carrying immigrants to the colony, and that he was in communication with the Agent-General on the subject. BILLS. The Invercargill and Public Offices Site Bill and Provincial Appropriation Acts Continuance Bill were read a first time. The Debtors and Creditors Bill and Ontram Telegraph Station Bill were passed. BORROWING POWERS. In reply to a question from Mr. KoiiESton, as to a reply given yesterday by the Treasury to Mr.- Thomson, . • Tho COLONIAL TREASURER said he regretted the hon. gentleman should" accept I storiea from the-men in the street as of more weight than the official statement of the Treasurer. He stated they had an official statement from the former .Treasurer of the |

I Colony that no-such promise had been made regarding the- colony's future borrowing. If the House did not choose to accept his statement, without being supported by some document, or extract from a document, he would consider whether it would be- advisable to produce an extract from a> private letter. In addition to Sir Julius Vogel's statement that he would give no pledge regarding fresh loans, he said he did not think the colony would reguire to go into the market for two years, but he most positively declined to give any kind of pledge on the point. By the Financial Statement it would he seen it would be necessary and advisable to take any reasonable opportunity to raise the remainder of the guaranteed debentures, but only a small amount would be required for expenditure during the current year ; when a favourablevipportunity offered, the Government would ± lace the remainder of these on the market. Mr. FITZ HERBERT said Sir Julius Vogel had no right to tamper with the credit of the colony, or deal privately with a matter which would ultimately affect the whole colony. "Why should the Treasurer have to take time to consider whether the information should be laid before the House ?—nor should the Minister receive private communication regarding such important matters as the colony's finance. About that there ought to be no privacy. Mr. STAFFORD said that while the House was entitled to the fullest informatiou on matters affecting the public interest, he was somewhat surprised that thq hon. member for Hutt should, make such an assertion that private communications should not be respected, when he ought to know that very often information was obtained that would not have been obtained had it not have been known that the origin would not be divulged. Thia was a question which was recently raised in the British House, of Commons, regarding a despatch to Earl Russell from the Freuch Ambassador, but the principle could not be impugned that there was a class of communications that should not be divulged. Of course, as the Treasurer had already given the substance of an extract from one of Mr. Vogel's letters, which conveyed all the information really required, there could be no very great objection to submitting that extract if the House required it. Mr. ROLLESTON expressed himself quite satisfied with the statement of the Treasurer, and would withdraw his motion. Mr. THOMSON" said it was pretty apparent that Vogel had been asked by Rothschild for a pledge that the colony would not go into the market to borrow for two years. Sir GEORGE-GREY thought the House should be informed that when Sir Julius Vogel was asked to give a pledge, and declined to do, saying ne would ask the opinion of his colleagues on the point, the House should be acquainted with the nature of the reply of Ministers here. Mr. ATKINSON said they had already been informed that the present Ministry declined to give any pledge touching disqualification. - - MR. STAFFORD'S EXPLANATION. Mr. STAFFORD, informed the House that he had been compelled to sell to the Government a piece of land for railway purposes, but he had no option in the matter, as they had power by law to compel him to sell. He made this explanation to put himself right with the House regarding disqualification.

NAPIER LAND TRANSACTIONS. Mr. SHEEHAN called the attention of the House to complaints of the natives of Hawke's Bay as to the manner in which they had been treated by certain Enropeans in reference to their lands. The matter was of such great importance that it would be criminal in him to remain silent. The hon. gentleman referred to the bill introduced by the hon. member for Timaru, for appointing a commission to inquire into certain land transactions in Hawke's Bay. Owing to various causes the question had been shelved since 1873, but he thought it would be a great pity if this Parliament dissolved without considering the matter. Some sixteen years ago Hawke's Bay had been created under the New Provinces Act, and for the next eleven years the whole control of the affairs of that province had been in the hands of a gentleman now Native "Minister and present member for Clive. At that time the bulk of the land around Napier belonged to the natives there, who from their previous isolation from civilising influences were about the most ignorant of all the natives in the colony, and they consequently never had a correct appreciation of the operation of the Native Lands Act until it was too late. The result was, that the native title there was almost completely extinguished, and the land had passed away from them to Europeans, under circumstances which the. House must tie, plore. He was perfectly satisfied the Native Lands Courts were to a great extent answerable for this, through not having done their duty. It was these Courts that were answerable for inflictiug great evils on the natives, and giving Hawke's Bay such an unenviable notoriety. It was of these Courts he wished to complain to the House. The hon. gentleman went into detail, to shew how natives parted with their lands, how they first got into debt to the publican and storekeeper, and how the mortgage and conveyance rapidly followed, and the natives became dispossessed of their land without ever once having had a glimmering idea of the incidence of mortgages. This state of things continued from 1867 to 1872, certain periods of the time being one continuous drunk amongst the natives, who could obtain stores and poisonous liquor with fatal felicity. The worst feature of these transactions was that a great many natives who were no parties to giving these mortgages, were deprived of their lands for ever through the machinations of a few designing Europeans who were known as the "ring." There was one glaring instance where a Mr. Williams, who outwardly was supposed to be acting in the interest of the natives in one of these transactions, and yet was secretly and personally interested in the transaction. Instead of being an independent person, who was instructing the Maoris and looking after their interest, he was really making the bargain for himself. Samuel Williams, Jane Williams, Mr. Ormond (member for Clive), Tanner, Russell, and he believed a gentleman named Gordon, were all interested in the land speculation. In order to induce one of the grantees to see them and to get the other grantees to sign, he was secretly paid. £500, —as a bribe to get his co-grantees to. sign, which he did. In about twelve months nfter an attempt was made to secure the freehold, , though it had been agreed that none of the [ grantees could sell without the consent of the .other. The hon. gentleman then related at length the history of the cases of Tareha and Mr. Parker, of the transactions between Mr. Stewart in his endeavour to purchase the freehold of the Heretainga block through Messrs. Hamlin and Grindeel, and Morgan ; and also read letters from Mr. Hamlin to the Native Minister, condemning the doings of Morgan, and making grave charges against him, which had never yet been investigated. The hon. gentleman referred to the attempts to effect a purchase of tfee Heretainga block, and mentioned that £3500 had been paid to Henry Tqmouna and Karaitiana, his brother, as a bribe, unknown to the rest of the grantees, to cause the sale of a block of about sixteen thousand acres to be effected for a sum of £13,500. To shew what the purchasers of the block had of their own transaction, he mentioned that as only about £150 remained out of the thirteen thousand, after debts for grog and stores were paid, two natives who were dissatisfied at not haying received any of the money, had to be silenced by being paid £700 hush-money. The Speaker's remarks were interrupted by 5.30.: "