PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XII, Issue 4294, 18 August 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

[FKOM OUR SrECIAL IORKESrONDENT.] GOVERNMENT TJriLIiI.VCS, Wellington, Tuesday, S p.m. I'kivati: information of a moat reliable character has been received by the mail, which staU-s that Sir Julius Vogr! gave a distinct and positive promise to Hcthschild that Xcw Zealand would not att-mpt to raise any more money till the end of 1577. The information also states that any attempt made in violation of this promise will be sure to fail in the London market. While Sir Julius Vogel was in Italy he had numerous interviews with an age.-t of the Kothschilds, and that firm was perfectly familiar until the transaction when Julyan and Sarceant first approached th- in, but determined not to give more than Si-, which offer Sir Julius Vogel wished accepted. It was n*t till Scrimegeour was appealed to a:id proposed to Rothschild to join them in taking up the loan that Kothschilds advanced, and themselves took up the whole at 93, 1 ss discount. This mail has, it is said, brought a letter from Sir Penrose Julyan, refus.ag, in I the most pointed terms, to be associated with Vogel in any future transactions. The whole of this afternoon was taken up with a diecusMon on a point of order raised, that the miancial j>art of the Abolitit u Bill being an Appropriation Bill, should have been first considered in committee -.if the whole. The Speaker ruled this could be done afwr the second reading, but tht point will probably be raised again to-morro''.-, and be further discussed. Mr. Eolleston resumes the debatr, and Mr. Bowen replies. Ministers wish t>push the debate on this week, and to take t:ie two days set apart for private members, but this will probably be resisted. The result of the various public meetings through the country surprises Miuisteii and their friends. The belief grows stronger daily that the bills will not pass into law this session. The Government are very anxious indeed to prevent Mr. Stout's return for Caversham.

Mr. Watcrhouse is expected to mak>i some little stir in the Council now he is back. The mail has not brought any intelligence as to Sir Julius Vogel's return to the olony. It is said his movements were very unde-ciJeded.-pending knowledge of h.w his resignation would be received in the colony, and what would be the issue of it. fjFKOJ! A CORRE-TOXPEXT.] The situation remains unaltered. The Opposition aro determined to light to the last it" only two or three are left to hoi ; onto each other. It is rumoured that Sir George Grey and Mocaudrew have said thy will resist if the bill is passed and any i ttempt be made to oust them from office. The Government supporters say ihe Government will put an armed ve*sel to threaten Auckland. I understand that from ten to twelve supporters of the Government intend -..aiting upon Ministers to them not to attempt to proceed beyond the second reading of the Abolition BilL It is thought this will have considerable effert upon the Government. The Government intend to move that all other business be suspended to carry on the debate on the Abolition Bill. Ministers intend moving for a Committee to enquire into dealings with confiscated lands by Orders in Council. There are ten members of propost 1 Committee, all but two of whom (Grey aud Macandrtw) voted with the Ministry t ! ;e other day on the question—the point the Opposition mean to take ou this subject—is to the of the action of the Government.

DOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

[j'KKS A<;KNCY.] AFIEU.NIHI.V SITUS :. Wellington, Tu-.sday. NOTICES UK MOTION. Mr. WALES <;ave notice to ask what stops had been taken towards tfee appointment of a .Surveyor-General. .Sir DON T ALD McLKAX gave notice to ask for a Select G»mmittce to enquire into the purchase of the swamp in the block of confiscated land in the Waikato by Thomas Piussell and others. Sir GEORGE GEEl'.gave notice he would move that a building tiould be ere eted for the safe keeping of the valuable library in the General Assembly. THE SPEAKER'S EXPLANATION ON API'ROPKIATIOX BU.L. The SPEAKER made a personal explanation to the effect that through a misapprehension, he prevented the hon. mei iber for Hokitika from speaking at the length he intended on Friday. The SPEAKER called the attention of the House to an error which had been made in the .Journals of the House by tin; clerk, in recording the introduction of" the Abolition Bill.

Sir GEORGE GREY asked if that would not nullify all their proceedings and raise the question of whether they should not begin de ncvo I (Laughter.) Mr. STAFFORD quoted from the question of Irish railways in the Imperial Parliament, in 1572, tc shew that the course pursued regarding the introduction of rtho b:ll was usual and pepper, although the hill contained the appropriation clauses ; bat .they need not be goat into until after the second rending. Mr. FITZtT-CRBERT said that Governrricnt had takeu an advantageous posil ion on :.tbw bill that would not be granted in or--1 cases. ihe SPEAKER explained that Iht re was another Standing.Order which enabled them to proceed with the bill as tiny hac.done, lie had considered the question fully, and had come to the .conclusion that nothing -irregular had been doue. Mr. WOOD pointed out tliat when the ibill ■was.brought down the Government hail told tie House they were,obliged to brii<g .the bill down by message frc-m His Excellency, aait an Appropriatioa Hill, and if it woe an Appropriation Bill, why not gc into committee °/ the whole iioivse V . The SPEAKER again explained that there was nothing done ,in the matter not m accordance with strict Parli- I anientary precedent and practice. This J bill was entirely different from an ordinary Appropriation BilJ, inasmuch aa tu« mam feature of the bill wa* its political character, and it shewed ca the lace of it that the appropriation clause* were quite auxiliary. He was perfectly *af istied *• to the propriety of the course pursued. •Mr.SJIKEHAX referred the Speaker to ; tit mode 0 f procedure adopted recawlinji : the <;vil Service Act Bill ] GREY asked whether tie biU , f atl >' relation to the precedents out ted » j 11 6 <--;""d to him that as the bill subverted J h ) iT S V tption to create mother, aid as ' le held that its llnauce clauses were w rona , .ajtogether, the bill was of no use whatever, i < winch ought to have been rigidly obseived, | were departed from. He and those acting with 1 of .?t t(i - m , oßt au *hm» that on a question i w * uca Vlta l importance w the House and ,

! country the coarse of procedure should be hedged round by every oontrtational protection, and that the interests -of the people and the rights of the Opposition should not be tranralod upon by a powerful majority. Mr. ATKINSON said that when a point of order was raised the Speaker gave his de-; cision and the House genorally abided by it, | otherwise the hon. gentleman not satisfied, gave notice that Ue disagreed with <lhe! ruling, and the House was then asked to give a further expression of opinion on the subject. He submitted it was an inconveaient plan to proceed with the discussion as it was beiug done, after the several rulingsof the i Speaker upon the point. He took it that the decision, and what had been done, were in strict accordance with the Standing Order 3 and with the practice of Parliament at Home. The proceedings upon an Appropriation Act were of an entirely different character. In this bill a great priuciple was involved, and it was desirable they should decide upon the matter at once. That being decided in the negative, nothing more need go before the House, aud to go into discussing details before the principle would be waste of time. The Government had gone carefully into the question of the fiuanco of the bill, but, from what had been said, it was evidently quite hopeless to attempt to make lion, gentlemen opposite understand the finance of the bill. There were none so blind as those who would uot see. On that point he would have a good deal more to say at a future time, and the House and country would then see who really understood the finances of the colony and Government. Mr. REID said the explanation of the hon. Treasurer amounted to this: That if hon. members disagreed with the decision of the Speaker, he should submit a motion to the House so that a majority at his back shouldendorse the course proposed. It appeared to him that the proper course was to discuss the matter with Mr. Speaker. He would maintain that if the financial portion of the bill was not worthy of discussion until the main principle of the bill were nlfirmed, then they ought not to have anything to do with it. The SPEAKER said it was quite competent for the House to come to a decision contrary to the ruling of the Speaker if it deemed it right to ito so. Mr. LUCK IE said, {our times tho Speaker gave his decision, and although the member for Taieri admitted the Speaker was to hold the balance between parties, yet by his objection he nullified his statement. It appeared to him that this policy was that of obstruction, of delay, of making objection after objection,—anything in order to gain time. Mr. BUNNY said tho Speaker had no power to over-rule Standing Orders, and that being so, the only course open to the Gowernment was to move that the Standing Orders be suspended. Mr. HEADER WOOD said that Standing Orders were statutory law, and the House could not alter or set aside a decision given iii accordance with them, and on that point he disagreed with the Speaker. The SPEAKER pointed out that the clause in the Constitution Act which made it necessary for Standing Orders to be approved of by His Excellency had been repealed. Mr. STAFFORD said when the member for Auckland City West was such a stickler for the Constitution, it behoved him to inquiro as to how much of it remained. That gentleman recounted a revision of various Standing Orders of the House, and said there I

was no statutory law against them at aIL It u-as idle to say tlioy were bound irrevocably by them. They were merely intended as aids in conducting the busiuess of the House. He had always been jealousand watchful of the privilege of Mouse in regard to money, bills, and [lower o£ purse, but he could not admit that any surprise had been attempted here. The House had not been asked to appropriate anything as yet. It had only been asked to read a eecoud time a bill containing an appropriation clause which must bo fairly debated and discussed in committee of the whole House, where every member would be able to speak as often as he liked. But whether that should be done before the bill is read a second time, is simply a question for the Bouse. As for the Standing Orders, they were not statutory or obligatory at aIL Mr.'O'RORKE said the hon. member confounding two sets of Standing Orders ; Those for public business having been passod without a dissenting voice, while those for private bills were very materially altered. Mr. I'iTyji KRKKR'L' said it was cold comfort. for the minority, who ventured to disagree with the Speaker, that his decision was iinal. As to the doctrine laid down by the member for Timaru, that the Standing Orders were not statutory,—if that were so, the sooner they altered that the better. He hoped the Hunse would never allow its business to be proceeded with while such unwise provision remained in force. [The telegraphist t-statea : "A sheet missed here by Agency. Cunld not find Agent to rectify."] The SPEAKER again gave a lengthy explanation of his position and duties. The question he had to decide was, had Government acted in accordauce with the practice of Parliament. He did not look at it as a political question. That was not his business. To remove doubts he went to the fountain-head—the House of Commons. The hon. Speaker then read to the House the words af :the Speaker of the House of Commons on a similar question, except that it involved an expenditure of seven millions of money. The decision was to the effect that it was 110 infraction of the Standing Orders of the House to take the second reading of such a bill before going into committee of the whole. He then hoped the House would excuse him taking no further part in the discussion. Mr- MONTGOMERY pointed out that the Civil Service Bill of last session was not I treated in the same way as this bill, and referred to the Journals of the House.

Why should there be a different mode of procedure in the two cases ? Mr. SUEEHAN said, that if that was vthe final ruling of tho Speaker, he would move that the ruling be taken into consideration by the House tomorrow, and no business to be proceeded with till then. This was not done for delay, because there were countless other means .of delaying the progress of business. H&viog gone into the maiter very carefully, he could not find in the .records of the House, that any bill of a like .nature had been dealt with in a similar manner. REEVES seconded the motion, and said if the Government had exercised as much iingenuity in the preparation of the bill as .they had in their novel mode of bringing it before the House, it would have been a gscat deal better for the country. Sir DONALD McLEAN said the Government mtct oppose such a motion. These delays on technical grounds were not becoming, aud only delayed the business of the House Aud country. Sir GEOKGE GREY would beg .to affirm that this u-ae a most important principle— that the country should be allowed to become acquainted with the finance of the bill. Being a young member, he was not sufficiently acquainted with tho forms of the House. When ihe bill was introdueod, of ■course he would Alien and there have opposed it throughout. The Government w«re acting unccnstitutionally. There wore Standing Orders laid down for the conduct of business, and yet the Government broke ihrough these orders—(Xo, no.)—and refused to take the path of rectitude when it ! was poiuted out. Evury step in regard to this bill was most unusual. They had deceived the Governor in getting his name attached to it, by not acquainting him with the fact that .doubts had been raised as to its ' legality, and that the adviee of the Im- ] perial oflicers should be iaken in the i matter. They had, in fact, deceived the,'» Sovereign in the person of the Governor, j There was, iu fact, systematic tyranny and ] deception %vith this Government, which was 1 in point of fact a Government of , civil servants to whom they were slaves. , (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Why not let the • two parties appear to-morrow before the I ' Speaker as suppliants, and after having I £ matured their opinion ? This qneefonaffeeted J t

all time. It was, whether members were always to beat the mercy of a tyrannical majority. Every Btcp taken with this bill was 'irritating to the people and unfair to the House. Give the people an opportunity to examine this bill,—give them all the information regarding it, and then Her Majesty's Opposition would go with heart and hand in modelling a perfect measure. He implored the House, and those gentlemen who so wrongfully supported the House against him the other evening, to defer this matter till tomorrow, to allow them to plead their views before the Speaker, as judge. Mr. BOWEN said there was such a thing as the tyranny of the minority. The Government had taken every care to act constitutionally. They were satisfied they had done so, and the Speaker had given his utmost consideratien to the course the Government had taken, and declared it was quite parliamentary and constitutional, but if they were to listen to and entertain every doubt that might enter into the heads of every lion, member as a reason for delay, and if they were to accept from the leader of the Opposition assertions instead of proof, and vituperation instead of argument, they would never get a discussion upon the principles of the bill. He must say these delayß were not conducive to the fair arguing of the bill on its merits. Mr. STAFFORD referred to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons upon this very point, and to the ruling of the Speaker of the House, upon a similar question to that now before the House. The Standing Order of the House was worded precisely the same. Mr. Sheeuan's motion was then put, and negatived on the voices. Sir DONALD McLKAN announced that it was his intention to move, on the rising of the House to-night, *' That the debate on the Abolition Bill shall take precedence of all other business." Mr. WOOD and Mr. RKID hoped Government would not interfere with private business on its days. Tha House rose till 7. SO, when the Abolition debate was to be resumed.