PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XI, Issue 3911, 26 May 1874, Page 1 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

'Spatial Report by Mr. Vf. Mitchell, Clerk of the '" Eiecutivc Council. ] HIGHWAYS BILL. Mk. SHEEHAK: Mr. Speaker,— There is no more instructive lesson to be gathered from the political history of this province than the study of the successful development of the application of the principle of Highway Boards government to the various out-dis-tricts. It: is not ten years ago since the first attempt was made to introduce the principle of local self-government, by means of Highway Board machinery, and I can recollect myself the strenuous opposition that wan offered by many members of - :his Council, and the large amount of public opinion which was expressed throughout the country contrary to the principles embodied in the proposals of tho bill of ISO 3. That bill gave . very limited powers indeed to the Highway , Districts, and it was nor long, sir. K'lore— 1 , think by the Act of ISo7-lvfore those ; powers were very much enlarged ami mi- j • proved. In tho course of time that elapsed | from IS(>3 to 1667, the country districts had ; begun to see the immense benefit chat had , accrued from the carrying out. to a limited extent, of the principle of local self-govern-ment and the taking the initiative in tho making of roads and assisting in the settlement and development of t.'ie country, ihst, -:r, the Act- of ISC>7 was found, in the course .if three years, to have Kwaid ur. suited to t!ie progressive wants of the country, and it ]i<-eame~!!i-vessary for the laic Superintendent ..;' the province, Mr. Gillies, in the first session of the Council which xsils held after bis election, to introduce a bill further to extend and enlarge the powers of Highway ] •istr'cts ; and, sir, not a year was allowed to ; ;r»s l>efcre it became uecesjsary, by an Amend- ; !::„• Act. io add trill further to the jKjwers of 1 :'.,.-so districts, raid todcii>;e and declare the j •.-.irions matters which jvevious legislation h.-.d. left 'i"i an undetermined state. 1 say that i: .o to the credit of provincial institutions, not eiJv in this province but in other parts of the" colony, that while that section of the eiitornnnity—and a very large and rwpect-.-.i.i» section indeed —which talks in a dreamy - ;t of way of centralising our institutions :..,-; doing away with the uumvrous forms of j {'•■ rerniutnt which we have, and of substi- j t::nng in the place of the various provinces one j

Central Government, and o: giving to the various large and nourishing districts alarger measure "i self-government than they now possess,—l f-ay, wliile those gentlemen were talking dreamily of propoeitions of that kind, the vail .us \ roviuces t« -ok the matter into practical dealing themselves, and did that which they o.nsllercd met the necessities of the respective district* within their bounds, and which give to the inhabitants and to the country settlers a more extended and j useful" me:wure of local self-government. ] Uiitil the y. nr IS7O, I think 1 am right in j saying tljat i o legislation on the subject of ] Highway Boards was ever attempted by the j General Assembly of New Zealand. In | IS7O an Act was passed, intituled the Sale j for Non-payment of Bates Act, and by that j Act provision wag made ioz enabling the j country settlers working this Act to recove* from absentees the amount of rates which might be due by them. I shall have occasion presently to refer more particularly to this Act when I cvme to treat of the section of the bill now before the t'-.cjieii, which deal* with the question of the .' • -very of rate*. I sliall content myself nor." . string that that Act is r ~r the purpose, v. A that it is not capable ■:■* being worked in rach a way as to aootrT-iiish tae object which it had iu view, or t iJ-.h was c»nteEipl.iiod by those who frsi—c it and assisted making it law, inasmuii «* the rcready it rs te> Highway District? '.■•r the recovery the rates from abscn:-.<«5 is positively ?se than the disease. If coider this Act any .{hway District Boards undertook to ro'ct the rates from absentees, by the ...iic they recovered, those rates they would ; find that the greater portion of the rates ' paid by ether people would be absorbed in the ousts of Courts of law. The General Assembly next undertook to deal with this question by an Act passed in the session of 1871, intituled the Highway BoardaEmpowering Act, and I propose shortly to refer very briefly to the previsions of that Act, because it has be-eome now a fundamental portion of the highv. ay legislation of the province. It is impossible for any Highway Board properly to discharge the functions which ate imposed upon it by the Provincial Council unless it has a full and intimate acquaintance with the provisions of the Act of the General Assembly. Honorable members will bear iii mind that there has grown up in tliis 001.--.-iiy what I would call a Upas tree in the of the doctrine of ultra fires, and under it- blighting shado scores of wholesome propowila for the benefit and advancement of the various provinces have sickened and died. 3do not mean to say that there may not bo i-.:meihing- in this 'I'lcwine of \dtra virc, itd that there are , certain subjects which are clearly taken out k" the hands of Provincial Councils by the '•p-ration ef restricting clause* of the Con»rir*tion Act; but this I do say, that the centralising policy has stretched that doctrine of ttUra vires to an undiscriu-mating and, I may say, illegal length, and that many propositions which it is quite competent for this Council to deal with have been pronounced to be contrary to the Constitation Act, and to come within the baneful operation of the ultra vires theory. As a consequence of that many questions, which can only be satisfactorily dealt with in the Provincial Councils of the various provinces of the colony, have necessarily to lie sent to the General Assembly to be dealt with there. The evil resulting is tliat tie provision which is made bv the General Assemblv.

inuoa is inaue oy ine ijccerai .ajsemoiy, while it units the circumstances of one or tiro provirces, i.s utterly insuffiLieut to satisfy tlie requirements of many other of the provinces. Now this Act, I may say, did remove a grtmt deal of the difficulty which stood in the way of the practical working of the Highway Board system. It was not an unmixed evil; on the contrary, it was a very large step In the right direction, but hon. gentlemen of local experience will ljear me out in saying that It fell very short of the requirements or the oase. Now, I know that in thi3 discussion many questions will be raised, bearing upon matters which come within this vl-tra rires doctrine. I know that this question will be raised ; and with the view ot shortening the discussion I will point out to hon. members what matters hare been taken, by the ox>eration of this Act, entirely out of the control or legislation of the Provincial Council. In the first place, sir, this Act, by part two, removed a number of difficulties as to the power of Provincial Councils to impose rates upon certain descriptions of land. For instance, it gave the right to impose rates upon the waste land* of the Crown Eold, Or granted, or contracted to be sold or granted. The want of this power hitherto retarded the occupation and development of the country. .The question w'as raised whether there was power to impose a rate with respect to those lands which were truly waste lands of the Crown, and this Act removed that doubt. And it also removed another doubt which was assuming very formidable dimensions, and that was, as to the power to levy a rate in respect of waste lauds of the Crown which were within the limits of any goldfield. That also was a step in the right direction ; and it also went a very great step further in removing what in the North Island, and especially in the province of Auckland, was becoming a serious difficulty, namely, the question how far and to what extent it was competent for a Provincial Council to deal with native land. Up to that time it had been held that it was not competent to deal with native laud held under any title. No one contended that we had the power to deal with native land held under ordinary native tenure; but there were pei-sons who held that when the native land had become subject to Crown grant the Council had toe

power to impose a rate for the purpose 0 f the Highway District in which the land ; might be situated. The question was open i to very grave doubt, and this Act has put the matter beyond all question, because it ' provides that laud held under a certificate of title is to be subject to taxation if m the occupation of any other person than an aboriginal native. Then, again, it contains a provision as to Crown lands leased for 1 pastoral purposes, which unfortunately : lias very little practical effect in this province. I regret to say that our pastoral leases are very insignificant indeed, and that the total revenue would be covered probably by the modest sum of . £100. The next provision of this Act is one to which I make particular reference, because ! many Highway Boards members whose time, : or whose disposition.or whose ability will not 1 allow them to follow-up this subject for themselves, will possibly ask why it is that the ; bill which is now before the Council contains no provision in reference to the recovery of ! rates and appeals therefrom. The answer to j that is, that the Act to which I am now rej ferring, by part three, provides a distinct ■ machinery for the recovery of rates authorised jto be levied by Highway Boards. The funcj tions of the Highway Boards and ratepayers are to levy the rate, to assess the rate, and to. enter it in the as«>e«»sment book. From that moment the proceedings take phto*- under the Act of the General Assembly, —and it becomes necessary, if any intention is entertained by any person who may think himself aggrieved, to appeal from the decision of the Highway Board, uiion any ground expressed in this Act, for proceedings to be taken under the provisions of this Act for the conduct of that appeal. Sir, this was a very large reform —a sulwtantial reform indeed—and one that oan only be appreciated to its fullest extent by persons Siring in country districts who have l>een called upon to undertake the troublesome duty of collecting the rate when levied. Many people innocently beiicra that tho work is done when the rate is levied —that the funds will b« readily raised in the district — that the Highway Boards, if 1 may use the expression, will become disgustingly rich, aucf will only hare to consider the distribution of the rates in making the necessary improvements throughout their respective dhrtricts. But everyone of experience knows that the work oiuy I betins when the rate Is levied, and that the I

j uogms wiita uie rax-c 15 levieu, ana ma? tne . real diliiculty of the highway trustees for many; months of the year consists entirely iu gathering in the amount of rates which they have levied. This difficulty has for , years largely marred the usefulness of the highway machinery, and the difficulty and responsibility that were incurred by highway trustees in the administration of this part of ' tiie Act have been such as to di'privo the J highway system of the services erf many men j qualitied to give the system a much more exI tended and useful effect. Fearful of facing j the personal responsibilities which might ; ensue, many persons have declined to terra on j Highway Boards, Now, the Act 1 refer to ■ ha* removed that difficulty, and rendered un- | neceesary any provincial enactmeat or j special provision for the recovery of rates, or for entertaining appeals again** stunmonaee for the recovery of the ra&e. I desire hon. members, who have a knowledge oi tho working of the Highway Board system, to understand nit on this point. 1 do not mean to say that the Act has gone ae far in the right direction as it might have gone, or that the process is as simple aa it might have been made; but when wo look at the state of tho law—when we know that the highway system was opposed strongly and in public places—and when we know that any man of a litigious turn of mind, who did not object to spend £50 or i'loo in* carrying tho question into ths higher Courts, eould upset the rate levied in any Highway District—we have reason to congratulate ourselves that the law has taken . this step in advance. What w» look forward ' to, as a necessary complement of the High- | way system, is to establish a mors simple machinery than now exists for thi; recovery of these rates. Sir, part four of the Act of 1871 also requires somo little reference before we proceed to the bill now before tho Council Part four contains provisions which, I regret to say, have not, tip to the present time, been acted upon by any Highway Board. Those provisions would have supplied the Highway Boards with aremedy for many of the grievances which, I need not inform hon. members from country districts, are known to exist I refer to the clauses which give tho power to inako by-laws for the regulation of matters in tho Highway Districts in respect of which they 1 have power by law to deaf. This also was committed to the General Assembly, because of the ultra virtu theory. It was held that while the Superintendents and Provincial < Councils might pass laws for the geod go- ' vexnment of the provinces, they had no 1 power to delegate* the right of making ; other laws in the shape of by-laws to ladies 1 'of their own creation. It is not necessary to i discuss the consequences of that legal prin- ) ciple, because we know that, at any rate i under the Act of the Assembly, it is made a i ] queetion for the Highway Boards whether 1 they will avail themaelrw of the power of J making by-laws. I would point out, particu- t larly to members coming from districts where 1 Highway Boards have be«n established, that ] those.Boards have not sufficiently availwl ( themselves of the provisions of these s«c- i tions of the Act. It is possible that they c would have found 3 remedy in re*p»>ct to i matters on which thay are calling loudly on i others for co-operation. The next part or 1 section of this Act deals with the question of 1 main roads. Now, the time .is coming, and < rapidly coming, when it will ke an accepted ( proposition, in reference to the system of i hicrhway government, that the main road 1

uu»G uitt mam roaa question underlies the whole subject. I say it emphatically, as my own personal view, thai if the highway system is to become a succikss it will be necessary that the central authority of the province should take moro decided action in reference to the main roads of the various districts. In fact, tho Highway 13oards are l«ing put to an unnecessarily severe test so long as they are called upon, out of the scanty rates they are allowed to levy, to make provision for the main road traffic of their respective j districts. When we look at the limit which the Assembly has tied down Highway Boards : as to the rates to be levied, and when wo look at the sy.stem of roads to be provided in the various districts, it would be a mattor of' wonder how they had been enabled to carry on, were it not that the discontent which would certainly hare followed the imposition of that limit, has been temporarily alleviated by the expenditure of a portion of the loan moneys as grants to the various Highway Boards. We know that for the last three years a subsidy has been given out of loans to Highway Boards. The receipt of that subsidy has kept their mouths shut, and prevented them from raising the hue-and-cry which may yet be raised throughout the length and breadth of the country—the demand for an enlargement of i the limit for which they are at present ► allowed to tax land within their districts for public purposes. Sir, it has been said that we have no authority for the statement that l the Highway Hoards may not look forward , to receive the contributions that are now paid s by the General Assembly, but the time is l now coming when they will not be able to , look forward to that contribution, and when ; they will have to depend entirely on the rates l levied within their respective boundaries. L When that time comes, depend upon it, i it will lxi necessary to enlarge the limit of i the present rate. The question of main l roads is intimately connected with this part of the subject, and in this respect i the Act to which I am briefly referring falls : short of the actual requirements of the j i various Highway Districts. I may be told that the provisions under the present Highi ways Bill in reference to main roads clash with the provisions of this Act; but if hon. members will take the trouble to go through ; thesections of the bill and of tho Act.as I have

i necessarily had to do, they will find that [ they do not clash—that tho main road rei ferrcd to here is distinctly a defined main ; road -not necessarily a main road of the i kind referred to in the section of the bill now before the House. I have said that the question of main roads has come gradually to underlie tho whole Highway system, and it will be necessary for whatever Provincial Government may be directing the affairs of this province to meet that fact boldly and fully in the face, and by its disposition of the ordinary provincial revenue to enable Highway Boards to undertake the duty of maintaining the main roads. Either tho Government will haye to do it itself, and call upon the Boards to assist them in levying a main road tax, or they will have to supplement tho revenues of the various Highway Boards through whoeo districts thwe main roads may run, to enable them to fully compote with the difficulties of tho situation. The next portion of this Act also deals with a question which has formed a source of contention—tho question of the validity of elections. There was a time when this was a matter of very small moment, and when it was not likely that once a person was elected to a seat at a Board any attempt would be made to displace him. I have known a case where three worthy gentlemen of a district hare met and done the whole business required by tho Act, including tho election ; of live trustees, and under such circumstances it was not likely there would exist I any diversity of opinion as to the elegibility of tho persons proposed for election as trustees. That time, however, is fast dis- : appearing, as the country becomes more fully peopled, and as the country districts assume a more settled form, the representatives of the Highway Boards will lind that an interest will be ttken in the annual meetings that will materially increaso the difficulty of that style of business going on, and will give rise to a largi? crop ol contested elections. Tho Act of the Assembly for 1871, so far disposes of the question by providing machinery whereby contested elections of highway trnstees can be determined by Courts of law. Pert seven of the Act contains power to tako land for permanent [ works. I shall hare occasion shortly to refer to one or two questions bearing on this ; section, whon dealing wish tho bill now j before tho Hnnsa. Thin iiow»r of +it,\,.r

oeiore tno Jtiousa. lnis power or taking laud for permanent works, as given by this Act, is of that cumbrous and expansive charaoter that only in vary rare instances can it bo taken advantage of with economy by Highway Boards. It Is bsaet with great difficulty. As a matter of fact, if a Highway Board desired to open a drain of threo or four chains in length on the property of a person adjoining tha main road, they could only do so by going to »n expenditure of £30 or £40, and if the opposition were of a etrenuous character, tho expenses might reach 5100. Well, this is a practical . matter, and there are uienibars present : qualified to say what is tha effect of a small [ amount of drainage along an unmetolled road, and they know what it ia to be sub- ' jeeted to raatrictiona of t-liia kind, ami tied down in this way in carrying out public works for the Denetit of the whola province. This Act is amanded by the Act of 1572, to which I shall also shortly refer aa being part of tha law, 10 far as tha colony ia concerned, in reference to Highway Boards witlun the colony. The question of levying an acreage rate, which ha* been a fruitful theme of discussion throughout the length and breadth of this province, and which lias furnished a battle-ground on more than ono occasion in this Council, that question was luffc unsettled by the Ac* of 1871, and it was necessary to have some determination upon it. And I must say that the Assembly has clenched the matter in the most undeniable form, for they have provided that from and after the passing of the Act of 1572 no acreago rate shall be levied throughout the length and breadth of this colony. Sir, I do not hesitate to say that I regard that clause as a calamity in the present condition of this province, and that it would have been infinitely wiser, infinitely better, if we had not rushed as wo did from ono extreme to tho other, but rather satisfied ourselves with making tho levying of an acreage rate a matter of option with each Highway District. I do not want to discuss tho question, for, unfortunately, it ia removed to that sphere where no discussion can take place. It would have been better, and far moro to tho interests of tho Highway Districts, and conduced moro largely to the advantage of tho province, if we had left it open to tho Highway Districts to decide whether or not they should levy an acreago rate. Then it would happen that every year the acreago rate would be gradually abandoned by one Board after another until you would have tho wholo of the Boards levying a valuation instead of an acreago rate. Now, it is only lawful to rate on the annual value or the value to sell. I shall now proceed to refer to the bill more particularly under discussion, hav- ; iug enabled hon. members, I hope, to fol- I low me moro cloarly in reference to tho I matters which are contained in that bill. Sir, j I do not heaitato for a moment to say ; that, not even excepting the education '• question itself, there is no moro im- ' j>ortant question that can coino before this ! Council tha* tho settlement of the principle ■ upon which local self-government is to be ! carried into operation in the several districts ' or the province. It is possible to give a law j : which we may enact ior that purpose such a ' complexion as to prove positively detrimental to the opening up and settlement of tho country, and, in fact, to have the effect of destroying even what settlement may exist ' already ; and it ia also possible, by judicious • lecislation. to so aid in linTnlnninn +),r> r.-»; 0 4-

legislation, zo so am in developing tho existing highway machinery, that in the course < of time it may be hi to take tho place of those provincial institutions, the ultimate i and final extinction of which we all of us admit is certain to take place, and somo of us desire to tako place very speedily. When wo j recollect that there are 116 Highway Boards : in operation in this province, and that out of a total area of 17,000,000 acres there are only seven or eight million acroe opon to bo ) dealt with by. Highway Boards, wo can form j somo idea of tho magnitudo to which the j system must ultimately grow. And when it is also borno in mind that tho Highway Boards during tho last year had upwards of : £35,000 to spend upon public works, wo aro quifco justified in ascertaining whether tho ' law is such as to enable us to got tho full ' valuo of our money. That sum of £35,000 represents almost as largo an amount as tho > ordinary revenue of this province, and it is worth our whilo, if wo can, so to provide - legislation in reference to the spending of tho i money as to make every pound of it go as far as it possibly can be made to go, and to produce as much as it is possible for a pound of money to produce. Sir, the bill which is now before the Council is divided, for all practical purposes, Into three parts. It contains four parts, but tho first part is purely preliminary, containing tho repeal of existine laws, and the interpretation of somo words and phrases used throughout the measure. When we boar in mind that our Act of 1871 was passed before tho Assembly Act of 1871 and the Act of 1872 wero passed, and that our Act of 1871 has been amended by our Act of 1872—that sections have boen removed and fresh ones inserted—that words hare been struck out here and there and other words inserted in lieu of them, —when we consider all these things, tho Council will bo prepared to admit with mo that there is »omo necessity for an attempt to reduce tho existing law into something lite a definite system. Well the second part of this bill, as it appears in print, has this effect:—it reduces the existing highway law within tho limits of one Act fit removes so much of the existing law as was ) not in conformity with the Acts of the Assembly—the want of which conformity, to my knowledge, has been the ma-xns of mis- ' leading the various Highway Boards into a

; course o£ action, which the law of the Assembly had forbidden. It also contains i various new provisions, not, I submit, of a : revolutionary or violent character, but natural and fair provisions for increasing the : powers of the Highway Boards which the progress of the country will fully justify. The first matter of importance in this Act is section four, which provides that iu the working of the Act, the Superintendent shall act with the advice and consent of his .Executive Council. Sections live and six are of a technical character, being the interpretation of words used in the Act. Sections soven, eight, andnine aro substantially sections taken from the Act of IS7I, providing for the saving of existing districts and existing rates, giving power to the Superintendent to abolish existing districts and create new ones, and authorising the proclamation of the Act in force in various new districts from time to time, and it further provides that this first part of the Act dealing with existing machinery shall come into force in present established districts without any proclamation being necessary. Clause ten is a new clause, and its object is to provide for the making of regulations to guide the proceedings of the Highway Board meetings from time to time. Those who have attended Highway Board meetings, and those who,.like myself and other members I of this Council, have from time to time to ! deliberate upon matters of dispute referred i to them from Highway Board meetings, will ! understand that a great deal of contention : does exist as to the manner in which theso meetings should be conducted. Theso Highways Boards are, fortunately, or unfor- ; tunately, ignorant of the principles of "May's Parliamentary Practice," and of those rules which guide the proceedings of deliberative assemblies, and the chances are that at times they are liable to fall into an error, the effect of which would be to invalidate the whole proceedings of a meeting. It is proposed to give power to make re"ulntions for the conduct of the meetings of ratepayers of Highway Districts, which will guard tliem against the possibility of falling into serious errors. Clause eleven is practically a section taken from the old Act, describing the qualification of voters and members of District Boards, and the disqualifications are also the same as thoso | existing in the old Act, with one exception, |to which I shall now call attention. That i»vi«.iit.ion i"« n« frillnwn . Tl.o+. .„. ~.„...

j exception is as loiiows : —J.lmt ik> person ro- ; ceiviug any salary or emolument exceedin" 1 £50 a-year under the General or Provincial • Government (unless in the way of allowance j or pension for past services) shall be capable ; of being or continuing a member of any Disi triet Board. 1 think that this is a necessary | disqualification ; because 1 know that in soruo ; country districts it is the practice, out of ] compliment or courtesy to some .Provincial or General Government magnate residing in the district, to ask him to accept a seat at the Board of Trustees, or , to ask him to accept the position of chairman 'of the Board. J lmow of two districts where this has been done, and where the cifeot has been that no improvements had : been carried out for a period of twelvo months, although funds were at the disposal of the .District Boards. I also know of another ease, in which a sum of £189 was for a period of two years and a-half lying in the bank to the credit of a Highway Board, and not taken out. Those who know how to appreciate the possession of money for expenditure upon useful works in their districts will marvel how this had occurred. Well, it occurred in this way : that au ollieer of the General Government who held the position of chairman was absent necessarily in the discharge of his public d iti&tj in another part of the colony. .1 think it woidd be desirable, in the interest of impartial Government, that General Government officers and Provincial Government officers, with the means of obtaining information which they have, and with the intlueuce which they can exercise, should be culled upon to stand on one side, and leave it to the actual settlers to take the charge of carrying on and administering the aD'airs of the respective Highway Districts. Clause twelve is practically a clause of the old bill ; but in reference to this clause, and to those which immediately precedo it, and to thosw which immediately follow it, I claim that there is this merit in the bill—that whereas in the existing law matters allectiug, for instance, the scale of votes to be exercised at meetings were to be found distributed in four or live sections throughout the Act; and matters affecting the constitution of Boards wero to j be found distributed in the same manner, so j that if a person wished to ascertain the law i on any particular point he hail to go care- ! fully through the whole Act before he coidd ■ obtain the information desired, in tho j amending bill some attempt at least, success- [ ful to a certain extent, has been made to bring the various elauseß relating to thesamo subject together, so that a man may readily at a glance see what is the law imposed by tht Provincial Council in respect to any jiar- ; ticular matter connected with the Highway Boards administration. The clause to which 1 am referring contains one of the amend- ' nients which it has been necessary to make. ' Under the existing law it is provided that the whole of the ratepayers at the lirst meeting of the district shall assemble ! and vote if they be liable to be rated, or have paid the rate, and at subsequent meetings : they shall vote according to a certain scale. The question has bocn often raised by various i Highway Boards whether persons at a lirst ; meeting were entitled to have more than , one vote. This section removes that doubt, j as each duly qualified person sluill have one ! ■ vote oidy. Clause thirteen contains a provi- ; sion in reference to the exercise of proxy votes. | ■ This 1 know is a very sore point in country j districts. An instance occurred in Auckland, I

m a suburban district, where an energetic old settler had managed to collect 1 CO proxy votes. I do not know whether 1 am understating the number of proxy votes he held, but just through his energy and zeal in following up ratepayera he came to the Highway Board meeting with that in his hand which enabled him to eUofc trustees in opposition to the meeting of ratepayers assembled to do business under the Act. That state of things under this bill could not exist. It would be perfectly impossible to carry on the Highway system with any prospect of success if a meeting could be deluged in tliat way by the indiscriminate use of proxy voting, and there the present law has wisely imposed a limit upon the number of votes which may be exercised by proxy, That limit is not affected by the present bill; but two points have been established with regard to it which will have the effect of removing doubts at present existing. First of all it lays down what shall constitute six proxy votes. This matter has been the cause of repeated dissensions in highway districts. The ratepayers seem to be divided into two sides as to the meaning of proxy voting under the existing law. A restriction has been made that a proxy vote sliall only be exercised by a person who is himself a ratepayer, which I regard as a very proper restriction. Air. Hr/issT: A ratepayer shall exorcise six proxy votes in addition to his own ? Mr. Sileehan : Of course, under this bill, it is competent for a ratepayer to exercise' six votes by proxy if duly authorised, bnt he cannot go to six ratepayers and got the proxies of those six persons. Whatever proxies he gets cannot extend beyond six votes upon the poll. That is the explanation of this clause. Mr. Citeesemax : Why not strike out I proxy voting altogether '! Mr. Sheehax : I do not know whether it would be wise to initiate a principle of that kind. I do not think we would be doing wisely if we were to lay down the rule that the man who pays one shilling rate shall have as much voice in determining the proper . course of business as the man who pays £20. I do not think we would be adhering to our character for conservative legislation —I do not mean the expression in an offensive sense—l do not think we would be maintaining the character of persons of sound

2 : business sense if we adopted such a course. 3; I say, let there be some limit. This v : bill fixes the limit as low as the - : House can expect. Clauses nineteen to 3 , twenty-one, inclusive, provide machinery for i j the calling of special meetings. The ex- - • istiug law is very doubtful on the subject, i j and what wo want to undertake, as a primary l necessity in any Highway law, is that it , shall not be necessary to raise an argument ) upon the meaning of a clause —that it shall not be necessary to rush to a lawyer's office • every time a difficulty is raised as to the law which the Board is called upon to ad- | minister, but that the provisions of the Act 3hould furnish their own interpretation. That is the intention I have had in introducing this clause. Special meetings were authorised under the old Act, but no distinctive powers or instructions were given as to the method of calling special meetings, or as to the way in which they should be conducted when called. Under this bill it is provided that the chairman of a Board may call a special meeting, either at the request of the Board or upon the written request of a certain number of ratepayers representing a certain number of voters, and that the chairman of the district shall be, ex officio, chairman of such special meeting. When it is remembered that a large amount of business may be disposed of at those special meetings, it is necessary that there should be some provision for determining how thoso meetings should be convened. Clauses twenty-two to twenty-five, inclusive, are very nearly the same as the existing law. Clause twenty-six contains the application of a new. principle in reference to the filling of vacancies upon Highway Boards. At present the practice is that if a vacancy occurs in a Highway District the other members of the Board shall fill that vacancy up. Sir, when this machinery was in its crude infancy—when it was an experiment which it was not desirable to surround with too many circumstances of detail, it was justifiable perhaps that a rough and ready obedient 0 f this kind should be had recourse to; but considering the advance we have made, and the increasing importance to the public of the Highway District system, I think, some better machinery should be provided in this respect. What is the fact ? We find very frequently in the administration of the law that, although the district is local, as respects other districts, iusida itself there is

an amount of local feeling as between two or three particular sections of tho district of which it is impossible to form a fair conception. Tho Board, as a rule, very early after its formation, divides itself into two welldefined parties. Well, a member of one of thoso parties goes out, and the majority of the Board elect a man of their own way of thinking to till the vacancy, thus reducing the power which a minority in every case should bo permitted to exercise. The system has reached that magnitude when we may fairly say to a Highway Board—lf a vacancy occurs, call a meeting of the ratepayers, as at tho annual meeting, and give them the opportunity of nominating a person to fill the vacancy—and we shall have done a good deal to ensure a purer and fairer system of administration in the highway cQiitriota than we have at present. Clause twenty-seven is a provision similar to what is contained in the existing law, except that it gives tho power to the Superintendent to fill vacancies—if tho ratepayers fail to fill up vacancies, within a time named in the bill, the Superintendent may fill those vacancies for them. Clauses twenty-eight to thirty-eight inclusive are, with one or two verbal alterations, the eamo as tho jM-ovisions of the existing Act. Section thirty-nine is a provision containing an amendment of the Act of 1871. It provides for the election of a chairman at the annual meetings, and lays it down as a principle that the person to be elected chairman shall not be th» cliairman of a Board or any member or officer thereof. The annual meetings called for taking an account of the proceed- , ings of tho District Board for the preceding j twelve months must be presided over by eomo one not deeply concerned with the past finances or other business of the Board. This principle has been found already to work beneficially, and I should bo glad to see it embodied in the present bill. Now I corns to section forty, and I ask hon. members to refer to it. It provides that "In and for every district within which this Act shall have eomo or been brought into operation, thero shall for the formation, mainten- ! anco and repair of the roads therein, be I levied and raised in manner provided by I law an annual general rate upon all rateable property within the distrist.'' A clause in the existing law proceeds to define how the rates should be levied, and it provides for the levying of au acreago rcrte. Well, there is this fact which must bo made apparent to Highway Boards, and to the whole of the ratepayers the length and breadth of the province, that the acreage rate has ceased, to be. Many Boards are utill undgr the impression that they may levy an acreage rate, and I should not be surprised to find that some Highway Boards at the next annual meeting in July will levy an acreage rate, notwithstanding the fact that such rate will be utterly contrary to the existing law. Ido not think it necessary to do more, in speaking of this clause, than to tell the Highway Boards that the rate to be levied shall be according to law—the law as passed by the General Assembly of New Zealand. 1 propose that this bill, and the other j Acts referred to therein, shall be published in one volume and distributed to tho Highway Boards, so that they may ascertain for | themselves what is the law affecting Highway Districts. Many hon. members may | think that it would be better to record the j particular words of this rate which the < Highway Boards Empowering Bill em- | ~„■..,.»<, +*~,„, +r> lov-,r T «»it „„ • fr.v vnil i

power* them to levy. I say no ; tor you ; thereby deprive the Highway Boards of every reasonable cause to get the Act and ■ look for themselves. They ought to be told i that the provision under which they act is ; contained in a measure passed by the ' General Assembly. Many members of Dis- ! trict Boards do not consult the law of the . General Assembly at all. It is better to ! indicate the source to which they may go to i get th« information, than make the work i easy for them by supplying the information j in thiii bill. Besides, I question whether it ; would be legal in this bdl to provide the J nature of the rate to be levied, and whether j it would not be within the ultra vire-t doc- | trino—dealing with a question which the I General Assembly considers itself only competent'to deal with. I must not be taken to express the opinion that it is a subject for : congratulation that the Highway Boards liave ceased to have power to levy an ; acreage rate. I thiidc it is a matter for regret. I am simply discharging the duty imposed upon me of_ making the bill conform to the provisions of i the existing law. I should bo glad to see some concession made on this point, which ! would enable an optional rate to be levied in some districts of the province. We are ' lxmnd in this as in everything else to bow to the decision of the majority, and the ma- ! jority of the Assembly has distinctly laid down the law on this subject for the whole colony, to which we are compelled to give in >' our adhesion. Section forty-one defines who ■> sliall be liable to be rated, and it refers to the provisions of part tw.o of the Highway • Boards Empowering Act. It directs the Highway Boards to the Act in which they ; will obtain information as to the various provisions which the law of- the General > Assembly has made on subjects wliich this Council is not competent to deal with. In i some respects this provision is the same as ; the existing provincial law. Section forty- ; two is also the same as the existing law; ; and clauses forty-three to forty-seven inclu- : sive are very nearly the same as the existing • law. Hon. members who have a copy of the old Act befors them will notice the absence r of the appeal clauses. I believe I have now > shewn the propriety of the course I adopted 2 in referring to the Act of the General - Assembly first, as it simplifies my work. I 1 could not insert appeal clauses in this bill, as

now appeal cases must be taken according to ■ the rule Laid down by the Assembly. Sec--1 tlon f ?rty-eight is a new clause, and I think upon its being brought into operation it will be found to remove a great deal of difficulty in connection with the preparation and making ot the assessment lists. It defines the time when the rate shall be deemed and taken to have been made. Doubts exist as to whether the levying is at the time the rate is levied at the annual meeting, or at any subsequent stage up to the time of its being recovered. Still, it is a step in advance, and ) lays down a rule of conduct for Highway Boards The making of the rate shall be deemed to begin at the time laid down under this Act—" Every such rate shall be deemed and taken to have been made on the day on which notice of the final settlement of the assessment list shall be published in the Provincial Government Gazette as aforesaid. ' Section is also a material advance upon the existing provisions in reference to the manner in which rates are recoverable. I need not particularise the extent of the improvements which it will effect, inasmuch as most members present must be aware of the particular points on wliich the existing law is defective. I speak of the demaud tor payment of the rate to be made personally, of sending notice through the i rcss, and various other restrictive provisions which are wholly unnecessary for the working of the Act. This clause provides that the rate shall be payable at the place appointed by the notice of final settlement. Hiking the principle which lies at the basis of the household rate of the educaoation law of the province, the rating clause declares that the person is to have notice that the money must be paid at the place named by the Board. There is nothing to prevent the Boards appointing collectors, and this clause gives the Boards the right, after the lapse of the time named therein, to sue persons for the recovery of the rates. There may be members of the Council who may think that this is too severe a provision. Still, I say, in answer to that, that it is not going at all too far to Jay it down that not oidy was the majority to govern in a case of .this kind, but that possibly a majority, representing nine-tenths of the people, ought to govern in a Highway District in a question of this kind. Ls the progress of the district, and the levying and raising of rates to furnish funds for the.wi-

suing year, to be delayed for several mouth*, because they cannot find out who may be the owner of some particular piece of land ? Certainly not. We do well to shorten the time, so long as reasonable public notice is given, within which rates are recoverable. Some objections may be taken of a practical character. It may be said that the rate 13 made payable the moment it is proclaimed in the Gazette. I say that the fact of making it payable does not deny a man the right" of appeal from the rate within one month after the rate is made. That is one saving provision. The other provision is this : That if a man be improperly rated—l lay it down as a principle of law—if a man is called upon to pay a rate that he is not liable for, that he has a remedy as against the person who ought to have paid, and shall recover it. Here are two saving provisions, and under the circumstances the provision which is made iu this section, for the purpose of simplifying and cheapening the collection of the highway rates, will be looked upon by the majority of members as a step in the right direction. The provision as to statute labour in section fifty is the same as iu the repealed Act, and sections lifty-oue to sixtytwo, inclusive, are also the same as in the existing law. Section sixty-three is a new clause. Hon. members who have read the clause will see that it proposes to call upon the Highway Boards of the province to undertake a certain amount of responsibility iu connection with the various public reserves within their districts. The time is coming when, as an lion, member to-day remarked, , one of the most valuable properties of the j province will be its timber land ; and there are very few Highway Districts north of Auckland which do not contain a large and very valuable supply of timber growing upon Government property. Well, under the system which has prevailed for a considerable time in this province, the right to cut timber is given by the issue of a licence at a nominal fee. liy the payment- of a small sum, a person may take out a license to cut as much timber as he can bring capital to employ labour. Such a system must eoinc to 1 an end, and the only way to put an end to it is to organise a system of supervision for < the preservation and conservation of the 1 timber forests of this province. If done by 1 means of the payment of salaried officers 1 appointed, then the expense would Ix 3 almost commensurate with the re- \ eeipts. I think it is a fair compromise to ; say to the Highway Boards, —Gentleman, J you are the persons in authority iu ti±e»e dis- i tricts for certain things already laid do .vu by i law ; we want you to take the supervision of I j these properties, to see that they are not | ■ trespassed upon or injured by persons Laving \ t I no authority, and we will make you, out of I _. the receipts that will accrue from tho timber j j J of these various reserves, a reasonable allow- ; f aueo by way of compensation for any trouble I t you are put to. 1 look upon this clause as i i aliirming this principle—a safe principle to , n go upon—that the district is to have a right ■ t to a certain amount of the revenue arising ; v out of it. The Highway Boards have aright 1 ] to receive back a portion of the money ! realised from timber licenses, and tho cutting r of timber within their respective districts. : v On the other hand, we have a right to say to c them, —Gentlemen, admitting that principle, ; -v we are prepared to give you back a portion ; c of the revenue, and we call upon you to . (; assist us in preserving that property, so that ; ( ' it shall realise the largest amount of money j v

i tor tne produce, xnc question may be , raised upon this clause as to whether or not i I ivc are to stop the cutting of timber. I j I know that 1 there r.re persons in high position , , in tliis colony who hold'that the only tiling j j to lie done at present is by ono wholesale | | declaration on the subject to stop, for some • j years to come, the cutting of any 'timber : I whatever. I say in answer to that —I speak j for the North of this province—l say that , when you lay down a principle of that ! ! kind that there shall bo no timber cut, at | the same time you should give the people j who are living in the North, in all justice, j ! notice to leave, because the great bulk of the I people in the North will be deprived of their , means of living. No man can regret the destruction of timber more than I do, —and 1 believe every member of this House who has ever seen a kauri forest will listen with : regret to the statement of this fact that they arc being rapidly cleared off the face of the country. "What are we .to do ? Are we to prevent the cutting of kauri timber now, ; anil import timber from other countries, and deprive ourselves of the valuable labour which we possess, and which should be utilised? Are our people to be driven away into other countries to carry on a trade which we will not allow them to carry on hero, and are we ' to pay higher prices for timber imported from other countries ? Such a policy would be suicidal. The true solution of the difficulty is that we should make reserves of timber land, and guard against the too i speedy extinction of this forest timber; i but if the demands of the province, if the circumstances of the colony, if the ! requirements of the' people, are such that the timber must be cut, it is impossible for lis to stand in the way. We I will not be the only country in that position, i All the world over, where timber grows, it i has become a necessity of business, and if we i thus be blind enough to ' prevent its being made an industry in this province, we may depend upon it that ■ neighbouring provinces and neighbouring ; colonies will reap all the beneiit. It ia ; recognising that principle that has induced i me to insert clause sixty-three in the bill, r which will ensure Government timber lauds 1 against trespass, by giving the Highway 1 Boards a reasonable pecuniary interest—the I most powerful motive that could animate st even Highway Boards—in the preservation

i j of these timber lauds, and of holding out to i them the promise that they will have a I claim to compensation—to participation in the revenue which these lands may produce. Section sixty-four is a clause which, in principle, exists in the present law ; that is, it authorises the Superintendent to delegate to the various Highway Boards the powers now vested in him under various provincial Acts. The powers under the Weeds and Watercourses Act, ISGIS, the I Thistle Act, ISSS, the Impounding Act, ISG7, the Dog Nuisance Act, ISS-1; and the Regulation of Perries Act, 18U3, have heretofore been delegated to the various Highway Boards; but the Fencing Act, 1555, the Rural Police Act, ISGG, the Registration or Brands Act IS7I Amendment Act, IS7I, and the Slaughter-house Act, lS(st>, have not hitherto been entrusted to Highway boards, as matters with which it would be competent for them to deal. Still, there arc districts to which it would be desirable to the provisions of these Acts, and place the highway authorities in the position ot the Superintendent. It has been found that the powers- already conferred have, in the majority of eases, been exercised well and temperately, and that no evil results have accrued. That being tho case, we are going a step in the right direction in making provision in this bill for adding judiciously to the powers and functions of the Highway Boards. I woidd have liked very much to have embodied the sections of these Acts in tins bill, but when I came to reckon them up I found it would have been necessary to have so added to the clauses of this bill that those hon. members who were the best inclined to give it a second reading would have tied from the House. It would not have been possible to introduce the provisions of these Acts without increasing the bill by some two hundred clauses, and that I do not think would be beueticial. But I do propose, with the consent of the Council, that the whole of these Acts shall bo bound up with the Highway Law of the province and with the Highway Law of the General Assembly, so that each Highway Board will have, in one volume, the whole law affecting its district wliich it may be called upon to administer. Section sixty-live provides, of course, that when the Boards are called upon to carry out the provisions of these Acts, that they shall bo entitled to pocket the nrooeeds. 1 think Hi.it. is .i \-r>™ fmV

m<- iiiutraa. j. uuuik [nan 13 a very lair provision. Clauses sixty-six to sixty-nine, inclusive, refer to matters which it is well to embody in the future highway legislation of the province. Sir,- after the acreage rate, I think the Fencing Act is the most momentous question with -which Highway Boards and people generally are called upon Jto deal. Tho Fencing Act is the '; Magna Charta" of the north. If I came into this Council ton years hence I have no doubt that I should detect all tho country members by dropping a few indiscreet words on the Fencing Act. You would have them all up in arms on one side or the other; and if I did not see tho hon. members I could easily know whether my friend tho hon. member for City East, ilr. Swanson, was in the House or not; he would certainly make himself heard. Well, most of us have heard of tno two persons disputing in front of a certain statue, the one saying that tho shield of the statuo was silver, and tho other saying that it was gold. The dispute was growing very warm, and they came to blows, and vveru lying wounded on tho ground, when a third person coming up explained the whole difficulty by saying that tho shield was silver on one side and gold on the other. Tin's is a fair illustration of a good deal of tho argument which has taken place on either side of this House with reference to the Fencing Act. Some say tliat it is uusuited to this province, while others urge that if you alter 0110 of its provisions in substance you deal a ' deathblow at the settlement of thei>rovince. The question reduces itself to this,—that while in one portion of the province the Fencing Act is a necessity, in another portion of tho province some of its provisions inight fairly be allowed to fall into disuse. Iho true solution of the question is to leave the Highway Districts to say whether they desire to maintain tho provisions of the Fencing Act within their boundaries or not/ In that way you will readily pave the way for removing the grievances at present existing under our fencing system. I do not mean to say that these provisions exactly carry out tho idea I had in view in inserting them in the . bill. I havo no doubt that in committee many members will be able to detect faults and errors in tho provisions contained in these four sections, and I shall be thankful to receive such suggestions as will carry out more effectually the idea which I had in view. Hon. members will see by section sixty-nino that when the Fencing Act ceases to be in force in a district the provisions of tho Impounding Act, which is a contingent Act, will bo taken to be repealed, and so if by tho operation of this Act tho Fencing Act should again come into operation within a district, tho Impounding Act shall also come into force along with it. I confess it is an experiment. It might be found that after tho proclamation of two or three districts under these sections had been made that tho experiment did not work well, and, therefore, power has been taken to retrace our stops and revoko tho proclamation under which these clauses shall liave been brought into force. It is an experiment worth making, and if by adopting the optional system wo can settlo a question which has been productive of so much discussion and contention in Highway districts, we shall have done a good deal; if not suecesyful, then it is worth knowing that the optional method is not a euro for the disease. Section seventy-one contains a provision in respect of a matter which bears

i upon clause sixty-nine, upon which I have j already addressed the " Council. Clause i seventy-one provides that out of the revenue j of a district the Board may set apart a ce»j tain portion of its funds for the planting of ! trees, and it enables- the Superintendent to ; contribute out of any moneys placed at his" j disposal by the Provincial Council an amount | as contribution to any Board that shall spend ; some of its own funds in thi3 manner. I i have said that it is idle to talk of stepping I in to prevent the utilisation of our timber, i but we can do this : we can take some steps j to supply the place of existing forests by ! planting others in their stead. It may be that the youngest of us present will not realise the benefit which will llow from the inauguration of this system, but depend upon it generations to come will. The time will come when such of us as will bestir ourselves now in the matter of planting trees throughout the length and breadth of this province, in proper places, will be looked upon as the substantial benefactors, not only of the province, but of the colony. I take it that oldsettled countries, such as England, would long ago have been utterly destitute of timber for building purposes, both for houaes and for vessels, were it not for the fact that it has been the policy of that country systematically from time to time to add to the number of its plantations. It is not a bit too soon to commence this system here, in a new country where the demolition of its forests proceeds at such a rate as to make the hair stand on end to see it. It is necessary, where the supply of timber relates to a tract of country very much larger than this province, and therefore the rate of destruction is on a large.r seale. It is incumbent to look this fact steadily in the face, and to make some prudent provision whereby those who come after tis will be enabled to make use of the beuefit3 of our labour. I think the Council ought to adopt the spirit of this clause, by making some provision upon the Estimates for a sum which will enable the Provincial Government to start the Highway Boards working in this direction. We know, of course, that there are many districts of the province where this clause for the present will be of little use ; but there are many Highway Districts where timber is a scarce article now. [ know districts where a few acres of bush are the si.le possession of '.he district, where every man watches his

neighbour who goes for a cart-load of-wood with the greatest jealousy. The remedy for that is to induce the people to prepare for the scarcity which is certain to come, by encoura"in" them to plant trees, and to impress "upon them the fact that every tree they plant will be for the benefit of their jM)sterity. Section seventy-two is a provision which was inserted in view of the Education Bill now before the Council. It is an intimation to Highway Boards that it is their duty to carry out all instructions that may be given to them by any education law of the province. It is immaterial wliat the fate of the Education Bill may be, this clause may remain in this bill. It may at some future time be necessary to make use of the- Highway Boards in collecting the rate under the Education law, even though it remain unaltered. The true solution" of the difficulty in regard to the cost of collecting the education rate will bo found in making the Highway Boards do the work, —that the officers who do the work should be allowed a reasonable commission for collecting the elucatiou rate, and not allow it to be collected as formerly, where in some instances the amount paid for collecting the rate was more than the rate realised. " I think, for that reason, that . apart altogether from the discussion of'the education law, and apart from whether we adopt or reject the measure now under consideration, this clause might safely be allowed to stand. Sections seventythree and seventy-four arc the same as the clauses of the old bill. In regard to section seventy-four, I do not know whether it would be incorrect to call it something in the nature of a,bnitinu ftil,>u n. It contains B. power which the Council or .Superintendent have never seen their way clear to exercise tip to the present time. The province has never been in a position to maku very large j_Tants to Highway Boards, and, therefore, the Superintendent has never been in a position to carry out the provisions of this section. But, u::dcr a system which is v.ry shortlv to e.iine into force, and which is

disclosed by tho correspondence or: the Ixble, amongst the enclosures to message >h\ 14, hon. members will See that the time has come when the Highway Boards will have a k'_'ai status in demanding some portion of the revenue raised from the »alo of land and oth-.i matters in their districts. 1 think, in reference to the land lying south of Auckland, the confiscated land, it is provided that as much as xwo-iifths shall be ensured to the districts in which the hind :-. and in regard to the whole of the land being Ixraght under the loan of £."00,'X v L\ after the extinction of the native title, the proportion is one-third or one-fourth. This proportion •-f

the land revenue is proposed to be secure.! to the Highway Districts. It is to be be! 1 :.s the law of the province that each district shall have a claim to a certain extent up in the revenue raised, within the district. That l>eing the case 1 think that we can still leiam~thcse clauses, because there is some chance of practical effect being given to them. Sections seventy-six and seventyseven arc the same as the existing clause.,, and clauses seventy-eight and seventy-nine are taken, with a few alterations, from tiie existing law. I now come to a new section—clac.se eighty, which lays it down that in addition to legal fences described in the Fencing Act of 1555, other substances and materials may be authorised to be used in the construction ©f a legal fence. If we were all country members, and all had an interest in this fencing question, I would not consider it necessary to take up the time of the Council a moment in putting this proposition before them, but some of us may not comprehend the present position of the law. The law has laid it down actually that only c.-rtain substance? and materials shall be a legal fence within the meaning of the law. These substances are often rather diiiicult to get in many pruts of the province. A man cannot have a fence constructed of maitai or tetara, and an iron fence is not legal. I say that is an oversight which should be remedied at once. \Vc ought to bear this in mind, that for instance totara wood may prevail in one district a::d not in another, and we kuow that there is an essential diil'erence in the quality of some species o: timber in di::..:\iit districts. For instance, the totaia of the South Island is superior to the totara of the North island, and we Cud woods in the North that are valuable for fencing purposes which in the South are not adapted for fencing purposes—and, therefore, I think tl»is clause wisely provides from time to time that certain substances and materials may be proclaimed to be proper substances and materials for the erection of legal fences. It will enable Highway Districts having material suitable to ask the Superintendent to proclaim that substance or material sufficient for a legal fence. I know that the insertion of this clause is meeting a great want in the Higway districts. I feel confident, if the fate of the bill hui.;r on the reception of tins clause, that it would pas* by a large majority. Sections eighty-one to

-.ghtj'-llve are also new clause.-. They propose to e-tablish, for the Sirst time, sonielhing like a system (jf engineering and inspectf i". in regard to works undertaken by Highway Boards. I am not one to stand up here an"> reproach the Highway Boards oi the iiro. vince, because when I look at the amount of work that has been done, ho far a-; the trustees are concerned, without remuneration, and often with great disadvantage—in ignorance of the law, in difficulty as to the recovery of the rates, and with scanty resources—-when I look at all these circumstances, -sir, I can honestly say that I wonder how so much has been accomplished; but at the same time, i am bound to state that my D.vperience in the Government fur the. la.-t three or four years, and the experience of officers of the Government competent to give an opinion on the matter, is this :—That a great dc;u of money is thrown awav in various iligway districts from want of competent engineering autlimity ; that works are undertaken out <■:' funds that ought not to be undertaken, and often necessary works are carried out in a manner which i.; far more expensive than they need necessarily be if due regard were paid to ordinarily understood engineering conditions. JTuiV this is not the place to make this a very great grievance upon the Highway Hoards. Aa a matter of fact, many Highway Hoards did employ occasionally engineering assistance. 1 can quite understand that if you call a man in once and give him an odd piece of work to do, he charges accordingly. 1 know in the profession to winch I have"thehonor to belong, if a man come.-, na bn .im..;.; and you are not likely to see him again, the fee which you charge is regulate.! very materially by that circumstance. ['\'r. Beveridge : 2So, no.'j My hou. friend s,iv:i "iso, no." Well, I am not such a purist as he is. I know that this is a principle upon which all professions base their fee.,. If a i man conies to me who is likely to be a regular client, I do his work for less than I would to any other person. So when an engineer is called in by chance to do any work, he charges a higher fee than lie would do if'there was a probability of his beiim constantly employed by the Hoard. Under the operation of the Public Works and Immigration Loan Act, the amount of public work being done throughout the province has vastly increased. It is impossible, with the present staff at the disposal of the Provincial Government, to provide for the due inspection of the whole of the- roads and works now under contract. The present officer in charge, Mr. Allright, as excellent an officer as any Provincial Government ever possessed, has thrown upon him far more work than should honestly be committed to one man, and although he struggles manfully in the execution of it, I feel confident, if he was called on to express an opinion, he would say that the work is too much for him, and that he ought to have additional assistance. We propose to appoint engineers who 6hall have the supervision of public works in the province, whom the District Boards may consult, and who shall give their services for a reasonable rate of remuneration —one-third

of their salaries to be paid by the District Boards who employ them. The same person niay act as engineer for several Highway Boards, and thus reduce materially the salary which the Boards may have to pay. 80 highly do I value this provision for the supervision of public works undertaken by the District Boards that, rather than they should be without engineering assistance, I would be agreeable to let the province pay for the engineering assistance, for it would have the effect of enabling the Boards to spend the money more economically. Another dii?iculty exists which has been a fruitful source of dissatisfaction. At the annual meeting of ratepayers, some scheme may bo proposed and adopted by which the bulk of the rates may go to the making of a road to the door of a particular member of the B-iard. This has been known to occur. It may hive been purely accidental and unintentional, but it has happened so often that I am inclined to believe that it was the result of design. If we had oirnnecring supervision, the engineer would certify whether it was a necessary work or not, and some of these little matters would be nipped in the bud. While it is not intended to drain the scanty revenues of Highway Boards to a large extent to secure professional assistance, I am inclined to think that the country members present will be disposed, to accept of this principle with some modification. The limit of ten pounds may be thought unnecessarily low; well, let us raise the limit a little. It is an experiment, and a person proposing an experiment cannot be executed to do all that we may wish or expect. Let us have some power to compel "the Highway Boards to go to an engineer for advice before undertaking works and not, as now, allow the Boards to involve themselves in liability in undertaking works which may afterwards be found fault with by the engineer, whose knowledge has enabled him to iind- fault with what has been done. Well, now, sir, that completes part two of the bill, dealing with Highway Boards machinery, raid I say it without presumption, and in all h ■iK'.-tv of purpose, that if the bill contained no more than these provisions there is suilieient to justify the Council in reading thebill a second time, and endeavouring to carry the provision*, with such modifications as the committee may suggest, into effect. Hut, sir, 1 shr.l 1 be told that we should leave well" alone.—that the present system is

di >::;:.' on the whole very well, and it is better not to disturb it. I say that is an argument made use of in every instance of an intention to amend or extend the operation of the law, and if we were always to leave well alone we should make very little progress. These are all matters which have formed the subject of complaint by large sections of the people of the country throughout the lcm.'th and breadth of the laud. Dem.mds are being made for engineering supcr-

vision. Leading members of this Council have proclaimed that unless engineering provision were forthcoming they believed that a large portion of Highway Board expenditure wotiM be money thrown awa}". Then let us trive engineering supervision. In regard to the practical effect of this part of the bill, it has established a more orderly arrangement of the sections of the existing law. One follows as a natural consequence ••f the other; but under the existing law it would require yon to go over a number of pa_*es to the law on any one subject. Whe-i we look at the men who are called upon to administer the highway system it is our duty to make the law as plain and as simple as possible. Ido not wish to dwell further on that point. I have no doubt that if it should be taken up as a ground of argument I shall have an opportunity, with the indulgence of the Council, of being heard in reply. Sir, I now come to part three of the bill, which makes provision for the appointment of Central District Boards. Sir. in a measure of this importance 1 should

!,., v.ry sorry to obtain the assent of the Council o any of the principles involved in part three, did I not frankly put before them the condition of the law upon th.it subject. 1 a:n bound to State, that it is my own deliberate opinion that the law as it now stands will very largely militate against these sections ouning into practical ellect—that until v.c ii.i'.e an extension of the limits of taxation in some districts, and until we have certain nUr.i vlrc< points settled, and the ' difficulties cleared up in favour of local self- | Government, it will not be possible very | largely '. i avail ourselves of tho provisions of these' Central District Board clauses. 1 should be very sorry to conceal that fact 1 from the Council. "What I wish the Council | to understand in this proposition is, that the time has come when either by enlarging the Highway districts as they now exist or by the association of several of these districts into one central district for certain purposes which will be public to the whole of the associated districts—that unless we do that -re cannot expect to have as good local Self-government as we otherwise might have. I will be told, doubtless, that it is adding to [ the numb:!' of Boards with which the eoun- ' try is at present alilieted, and that we are sufC-ring from too much government. I am 'jot in a position to deny that there is an amount of truth in both of these assertions ; but I say that we ought to bear in mind that manyof these districts are of ridiculously small dimension.-, some not larger than many parishes at home, and that in consequence many of these small districts, on account of the conflict of local feeling prevailing, fail to reap those advantages which they might otherwi.-.o possess,—that while larger districts on each .side of them have carried out reads a:id other improvements through their respective portions of the country, the smaller portion is left unprovided with load accommodation. Under the provisions of this bill it Mould be competent for the central authority to make the main roads, aud ensure communication through the length and breadth of the land. I will not go through the details on this occasion, because 1 am free to state that they will be found, upon inspection, to provide for nearly every matter which will suggest itself to hon. members. It will lie seen that they do not come into effect the moment this bill become.-, law, but that provision has been

::;;.!■. iVr bringing them gradually and by | slow degree.-", step by step as it were, into ' oper:it : <;ii. J'"or my own part I should be : sorry to sec the principle tried in any other I way. it might be brought into force in the j first instance in districts near Auckland—in the sr.buvb-.ii districts, and its operation the)-.. .-.bouM bo iiii-.ilc use of as a test to determine the feasibility of extending its operation-.: to other portions of the country. It will be .said, perhaps, .sir, that there is no warranty for the introduction of this chauge. Well, sir, what I say to that is this, that there is every reason to justify the Government in te.-iting the feeling of the Council on the point. During the recess this question has been put before some of the largest portions of the province, some of the most thickly-peopled country districts, by the Superintendent. The question has been raised broadly and plainly by him in each instance, and 1 think, with only one exception, the principle contained in these clauses was endorsed by the various public meetings which he addressed. I shall not dwell further upon this part of the bill, but leave it to hon. members to state, in th e discussion on the bill, the particular point or points in respect to any of the clauses upon wlii h they would like to have an amendment, or in respect to any portion of which they are i;: doubt, and I shall content myself with saying that, in regard to thiß part of the bill, if it be the feeling of the majority of the Council that we should not make the experiment of these Central District Boards, I shall put it to them, and take the discussion on that question upon section eigkty-eight, which provides that "It shall be lawful for the Superintendent, -for the purposes of this part of this Act, to unite any two or more sub-distrbts into a Central District." And if that clause be struck out by the Council in committee, the Government will accept that as an indication, at the hands of the majority of the Council, that they do

not desire that the principle should for the present be brought into operation. I shall then withdraw all the clauses relating to Central District Boards. At the same time, I intend, and various members of the Council intend, in committee, to make a fight for this principle of making a beginning of the association of the Boards for the carrying out of purposes common to the lot, but which are too big for any one of them to undertake with any possibility of success. I now come to that part of the bill which proposes to give to Highway Boards the power to borrow. And, sir, in reference to this section of the bill, and the section from which I have just come, that iB, the Central District Boards section, I desire to state, for the information of hou. members, that although the principle of associating Boards into Central Boards, and the principle of permitting all Boards to borrow, niay be new principles in this province, they are not new principles in other colonies—that the principle of associating districts into one larger district, for various purposes of a larger character, is recognised as the law throughout the length and breadth of the dominion of Canada. And we know that in Canada local .self-government has reached a 2*>int of perfection to which none of the Australian colonies can possibly lay claim ; and it has readied that perfection, with this additional

recommendation, that not one tithe of the

amount is spent in the administration of local self-government which is spent in the colonies south of the Hue. There the principle of associating districts together, and the principle of permitting districts to borrow, iias been established foF many years, and has been found to work inost advantageously. The loan principle;—the principle embodied in these loan clauses, is also in operation in this colony—it is in forco in the province of Otago. The Otago Road Board Act authorises the Road Boards of that province to borrow money upon the security of their rates, so that there is nothing startling in the proposal. I do not claim for it that it is an invention of my own. I think, sir, with the oxperienco which this colony has had in the way of borrowing during the last four or live years, that no man could now take out a patent for a new principle of borrowing ; but what I do say is this, that there is warranty for it, —that it has been tried in other countries, and tried with success. At the time I drafted these

clauses I had not an opportunity of seeing the Canadian legislation on the subject, but I had access to the Otago bill, which was consulted in reference to the various provisions which are contained in part four of this bill. "When afterwards I saw the Canadian law, I was very much pleased to find that I had, of -my own accord, mado provision on all material matters, and that it was only mcessary for me to avail myself of the Canadian Act in respect to one or two of them. I contend for these loan clauses that they give the Highway Boards the power of borrowing money upon security of ths rates under reasonable and proper conditions. It is not as if theso provisions wero to come into force immediately the Council sanctioned the Act; it is not as if the Highway Boards were invited to enter upon a wild crusade for the purpose of borrowing as muchasthey possibly could from unsuspecting persona willing to lend. On the contrary, it is provided that the Act shall only como into forco from district to district, according as circumstances may arise to justify its being brought into force. There are, as hqn. members will see, several safeguards provided. One of them is that two-thirds of the ratepayers must approve of the amount of money to be borrowed, and that the loan must be for specified public works, approved of by the engineer of tho Board, aud also by the Superintendent of the province. And when it is borne in mind that there is a safe aud reasonable limit fixed for spending tho amount borrowed, aud that in the first instance the moneys raised from rates ahall go towards the establishment of a sinking fund and the payment of interest, it will be admitted that

however objectionable it may bo considered in principle to allow Highway Boards to borrow, yet that a certain amount of security has been taken in framing the provisions under which the power is proposed to bo given. Sir, in the course of time one of two things must certainly happen. I look forward, to the time when the colony will not be able, to contribute as largo a sum as it is now contributing for the purpose, of the Boards throughout the colony. Ido not say it will be shortly, or next year, or that it will be the result of thi3 or that particular policy, but it will follow as a natural consequence that the General Assembly will decline to vote colonial revenue for local purposts. They will say to the Road Boards, we want that money for other purposes, and whatever money you require for making roads, take it out of your own pockets. We must, therefore, either raise tho limit of taxation under the rating clauses, or give the Boards power to anticipate the revenue in this way. One of two things must follow. "Well, if I saw any reasonable prospect of that limit bring raised within- a short time, I would be inclined to say, let the loan principle stand over until we see tho result of it; but 1 do not see any chance of that happening. "When. 1 look at the constitution of the Assembly, when I see that two-thirds of the members of the Ooneral Assembly are the largest landed proprietors in tho colony, I can see no prospect of their according the smaller proprietors tho power of taxing tho land of the colony for local purposes at a higher rate than at present. There is no occasion to beat about the bush. Tho largo large lauded proprietors are afraid that if the limit of taxation were to bo raised, the letting of their lands would be impossible ; that the amount of taxation would practically compel them to go into the market and dispose of their present freeholds. Being a large majority in the House, and being a larger majority in the Legislative Council, they will naturally look to tho power they have, and jealously guard it. They will decline to allow of an enlarged maximum, because they will say it would be a taxation which they would be unable to pay. The effect of it ia, that the Highway Boards are not able to raise more than is necessary to meet ordinary wants. There may be a margin, but not of sufficient amount to justify the Boards undertaking large public works. Well, if it bo wise for the colony to borrow, and that a large proportion of the people of the provinces are in favour of the colony borrowin" —we are looking at the fact that the colony is borrowing to a large extent,—if it be wise that the provinces Bhould borrow—and I have heard it said in this House that it is our duty to get as much as we possibly can— - if this be so, I fail to see why it should not be equally proper for Highway Boards to borrow, so long as they do not go beyond their tether.

Mr. Cakleton : Because they will have to pay. We will not have to repay the £40,000 that we are to borrow.

Mr. Sueeiun: My hon. friend says we will not have to repay the £40,000 we are going to borrow. I shall not attempt to forecast coming events to that extent; I will leave that t© be settled by the course of time. If we aro not called upon to repay it, I shall not regret that circumstance, and I shall render due praise to the clemency of that Colonial Government that shall have felt it to be its duty generously to have had regard to the crippled financial condition of the province and not ask it to pay a debt which it was not able to find the cash for. The same hon. gentleman says that the reason why it was not advisable to allow Highway Boards to borrow is because they will have to pay. i Well, that appears to me to be putting the loan theory upon the very widest possible basis I have ever heard. It m«ans that the provinces may borrow, and the colony may borrow, because there is no prospect of their being called upon to make good their engagements.

Mr. Caeletox : The hon. member knows as well as I do that the practice has been to remit provincial debts under special exigencies ; they have been remitted, and this will be provincially remitted.

Mr. Sheehax : I know this, that it was only yesterday I saw a document coming from the Colonial Treasurer which set forth the actual sum received from this province in the shape of revenue, and there was a most enormous reduction occasioned by payment of interest and sinking fund on our provincial loans.

Mr. Carleton : They are charged. Mr. Shekhan : Not at all; we are debited with interest and sinking fund upon our loans. The process of payment is going on, and all that our most sanguine friends can expect is that in course of time, should we not be able to pay, we may escape payment I of the balance. That question does not arise here ; we are going to furnish the Highway j Boards with an opportunity of setting an example to the provinces and the colony in this respect. We are going to let the Highway Boards teach the provinces a lesson in political morality. Let them borrow and let them set the noble example of paying what they do borrow. Many cases exist in this province, both north and south, where a work is urgently required for a district, not exactly such a work as could be fairly saddled upon provincial finances, and, even if it were, it is quito upon the cards that the provincial finances would not bear the strain. "Well, what is the position of the Board ? With its ordinary rates it is impossible to accomplish that work, and it goes on tinkering at it from year to year, throwing away a large portion of its rates in repairs which become disrepairs in the few months of tho winter season. If we can inaugurate a system whereby the Boards might raise at once, upon the security of the rates, a sufficient sum for carrying on such an important work without depriving themselves of the right of raising sums for carrying on the ordinary affairs of the district, then we shall have conferred a great boon upon the Highway Districts. I know that some hon. members will take exception to these provisions on the ground that we are borrowing mad—that we are borrowing from one end of the colony to the other. It is said that the province contracts obligations that it cannot pay, and we are not anxious to see the application of this principle to Highway Boards. lam not afraid of that. I quite agree in the opinion expressed by the hon. member for the Bay of Islands. I know that the effect of the operation of these sections of the bill will be that the Highway Boards will have to repay their loans. There are people who fondly imagine that tho colony can escapo from payment of its liabilities, and that the provinces can escape ; but when the Highway Boards know that they will have to pay, we confidently expect that they will borrow prudently and expend with economy. And to aid them in doing this these sections of the bill are sufficiently carefully framed to guard against improvident lwrrowing, and to protect them against extravagant expenditure. 2v"ow, if lam told that this part of the bill is not required by the Highway Boards, I meet that at once by saying,—Very well; if not required we will not bo called upon to proclaim it in force. I may be told that these provisions are dangerous and unnecessary. Let us try the experiment ; let us try it in one or two districts favourable to allowing the borrowing portion of the bill to be brought into force; and if it works well there, let us extend its operation. I should be sorry to bring the sections into force over a large area of the province at once. Let two or three Highway Boards initiate the system if they like, and let the Council watch the result; and if it works well let it gradually extend the operation of these sections to other parts of the province. Now, sir, I have gone through this bill as carefully as I possibly could, and I have been very particular in the supervision of the law affecting Highway Boards, and of the effect of amending sections, because I recognise that it is of importance— of very vast importance. I can assure the Council that I have approached the work of drafting this bill as reverently as I would enter a place of worship, because I recognise tho fact that upon the wisdom, upon the carefulness and clearness with which a law of this kind is initiated, very largely will hang the material progress and advancement of a large section ol the province. By an error of the pen, or a slip of a word, a man's rights may be defeated or his property placed in jeopardy. Upon these grounds 1 have carefully weighed the operation of the clauses which, with the consent of my colleagues and the Superintendent, I have introduced into this bill, and I feel bound to say that there is not one provision in the bill of tho reasonableness or justness and expediency of which I have not the very fullest belief myself. It may be that hon. members in going through the bill, either on the second reading or in committee, will point out errors or imperfections cither of the draftsman or the lawyer. I shall be oidy too glad to accept any suggestion to correct defects that may be pointed out, and submit also with perfect good humour to corrections of the law, which 1 have either enunciated here to-night or which are embodied in the various sections of the bill. In a measure of this magnitude it iu impossible that one person could frame it without imperfections of the kind I have suggested ; and this Council exists for the very purpose of discovering those imperfections and correcting them, and making the measure that which one mind is not capable of making it, as perfect as it possibly can bo made. Sir, I claim for tho bill which is now about to be submitted to the decision of the Council, that in all material respects it is an improvement on the existing law—that as to the part which j>erpetuates the present system, and which has an important bearing on the position and duties of the Board, even if that part, as amended, were only contain h! in the bill, it would be worth while for the Council to pass it. As to the other provisions iu parts three and four, it would be desirable, in the interests of local self-government, to make the experiment. 1 call the attention of hon. members to the fact that they are carefully and guardedly framed so as to introduce them gradually from time to time as tho circumstances of the various districts may require. I say for the sake of the experiment, and establishing the fact whether the Central Board system will work welt for the province or not, it might be worth our while to try. With regard to the loan clauses, I will say that if the bill be allowed to go to a second reading, I shall simplify very much the work of the Council in committceby the plan which I have proposed. Assuming the second reading to take i>l<ico —and I have every confidence that the Council will allow the second reading to take place—assuming it to take place, and that the existing system has been dealt with by the Council, I shall, on coming to the consideration of the Central District Boards system, accept the verdict of the committee on the first clause, as to whetherit approves of the Central District Boards system or not. I shall also accept the decision of the committee on the first clause of the loan provisions as to whether they are in favour of allowing the loan system to come into operation in the province. With these remarks—l was going to say few remarks, but that would hardly be a correct expression—l shall leave the bill in the hands of hon. members.

Mr. Hdrst : Have we the poorer to pass provisions to enable Highway Boards to borrow money? | Mr. SirEEiiAif: I am glad the hon. member has called my attention to that. When these clauses were drafted by me, they were submitted to the Premier, Mr. Vogel, and from his hands they passed into the hands of the Attorney-General, and the papers in my possession roveal two facts particularly pleasing to myself : in the first place, that there ifl nothing ultra vires in the clauses themselves; and, in the second place, that they are drawn in such a way as to meet the particular requirements of the case. Thero is nothing in the law of the colony or the province to prevent these powers being given, and I leave it to the Council to determine how far the Attorney-General was

correct in his statement that the clauses as framed -will carry out the objects of the bilL Mr. Hukst: What about the position of the City Commissioners ? Mr. Sheehak : We are dealing with the Highway Boards and not with the City Commissioners. Mr. Hcrst : It is the principle ? Mr. Sheehan: If my hon. friend will point out any section of any existing statute, I am quite willing to consider it, and will be prepared, if lam wrong, to admit it; but I have it from the highest authority in the colony that there is nothing contrary to law in the principle contained in these clauses. I will produce the records in committee on the subject, shewing that that is the opinion of the Attorney-General, and we have also his opinion that, so far as they go, the clauses fairly carry out the intention of the promoters of the bill. Sir, I beg leavo to move, that this bill be now read a second time. [The hon. gentleman, who was repeatedly cheered during the delivery of his speech, resumed his seat, warmly applauded.]