PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Herald, Volume VIII, Issue 2422, 30 October 1871, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

THE PUBLIC WOBKS ]\ T ORTH OP AUCKLAND. [PEOM " HA2f3ABD."] (Continued.) -in- /■»,» '"'Htok said the remarks of the Mi. her for Newton would shorten honorable <*»*>*■ ho had to say on the quesHe had affected tobel«V£-f a *'f e ft h f OnQraUo mover intended to take **»i °°° «* of «» revenues of the Colony. tfSwbou'orable gentleman could not have failed to» *«« b/ the .Notice Paper what the terms of the motion were, though, he (Mr Creightqn) supp «sd that he had forgotten all about it; but it served his purposes for the time. The statement had the effect of misleading the House thou , ? 1 ' no doubt that was quite unintentional on the J>a*t of the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer. Then*,when, the honorable gentleman was corrected on that point, he threw out another suggestion ■whish also, in some degree, had the effect of creating a false impression.; and that "was, ttiat alchough the honorable member had intimated that the money should come out of the public works loan he had not specified what part it should come from. Now, if there had been one thing clearer than another in the cour3t< of that debate, it was the intimation that a portion of the £400,000 appropriated by the House for roads and works in the North Island should be spout in a particular portion of the Province of Auckland, for the benefit of the native inhabitants. If the Colonial Treasurer did not know that fact, it was his duty to have known it, and his remarks, though no doubt unintentionally, had had a mischievous and misleading effect. The honorable member's remarks in the opening part of his speech showed that some such motion a3 that before them was necessary to make any portion of the fund available for tke northern districts of the North Island. It would be found that the greater portion of tho expenditure up to the present time had been in the districts of Hawke's Bay and Rangitikei. There could be no doubt of that. If honorable members would only read the papers on the formation of roads and tramways in the North. Island they would be satisfied on tho point. Mr. 33. McLean said that a great, if not the greater, portion of the money had been spent Fu Auckland, in the neighbourhood of Taupo and the Bay of Plenty, and other parts. Mr. Ckeighto>" said soino money had been spent to tap the southern portion of Auckland by connecting it with Napier by roads, whon the little arrangement for annexation failed to be carried out. There was no denying the fact. He did not doubt the wisdon of that expenditure ; But ho maintained that it would ua be'.ter to expend the money in districts partly occupied by Europeans and largely by natives, rather than in districts wholly occupied by natives and from which Europeans wero excluded. What benefit were those roads in the Tauuo and HawUe's Bay districts ? what settlement could they lead to, and what traffic would go along with them ? Those questions naturally suggested themselves to the minds of honorable members when a moderate expenditure in the northern portion of the Island, which would lead to a great increase ot settlement and a largo increase of Customs revenue, was objected to. He maintained that the expenditure proposed by tho houorable member for Eodney would tend to the final pacification and settlement of that part of the country. The Colonial Treasurer had made something like a proposal to take over the construction of the Kaipara railway from the Province of Auckland, under conditions different from that attached to similar transactions in other Provinces in the Colony. Would the Hon. tho Colonial Treasurer tell the House that the cost of constructing that railway and the interest on it was not to bo charged against tho Province ? If he proposed to take over the Kaipara railway, and make tho payment of interect a colonial aud not a provincial charge, ho could understand there being some force in his observa tious ; but inasmuch as the honorable member proposed to take over tho railway and to charge the revenue of the Province with tho intez-est on the amount spent in its construction, they might very well say: " Tliank you for nothing." There was no special benefit, no gift nor concession whatever in the matter. The Province was not in funds to

carry out the work itself, but if tho Colony chose to take it over and intrust it to the Public Works Department, thera would be no ultimate gain to the Province, although there •would be an immediate gaio, by enabling tho Province to employ a portion of its revenue in another way. Tho honorable member declared that lie had brought no pressure to bear on the Provinco, but ho maintained that tho honorable member hud brought undue pressure to bear on it. He had brought undue, if notuufair, pressure to bear on the members of the Province of Auckland, to induce them to pledge a large portion of tho provincial revenue lor a particular purpose. This money, which it was proposed to release, was tho comuion property of tho whole Province, and was, to u large extent, the contribution of the Thames rjldSelds ; and what answer would his honorable friend the member for the Thames make to his constituents if ho became a party to this left-handed bargain ? What right had that House to say that a portion of tho provincial revenue should, bo appropriated in a specific direction without consulting the Provincial Council ? If tho intimation of the Colonial Treasurer and of the Government that night was not bringing most undue pressure to bear on tho Province of Auckland, he did not understand what pressure of a political kind really meant. Hβ altogether denied that the case of tho northern portion of the Provinco of Auckland, in regard to tho expenditure on the out districts, was one whit worse than the case of any outlying district in any other part of the Colony; and he likewise denied the accuracy of the statement made by the honorable member for the Bay of Islands, to the effect that something liko £500 was spent in that northern district last year. Mr. McLeod.—No, no; out of the halfmillion loan. Hγ. Ckthghtok : — Tho honorable member

forgets that a good portion of that money was spent on Mongonui and the Bay of Islands, and tbat special settlements were formed there. He (Mr. Creighton) had been engaged in the settlement of tho disputed accounts between the Province and the Colony, and was perfectly aware of the sums that were spent in the locality which the honorable member represented ; and the le3s he (Mr. McLeod) said about it the better. The honorable momber (Mr.McLeod) was not engaged in these transactions ; but the district which he represented had the benefit. The honorable member had said a great deal about his district haying been forgotten by the provincial authorities. No doubt those authorities were not immaculate ; but was the General Government immaculate ? Had its expenditure been always as it should be ? Had not the Provincial Governments, with all their faults, done all the colonizing work of the Colony, constructed all the roads and bridges, and maintained the hospitals, lunatic asylums, police, aud gaols ? But thi" General Government managed to spend £3,000,000 in war, and had done nothing for colonization. But lie need not pursue the subject. Hβ regretted that his honorable friend, tho member for the Bay of Islands district, should have seen fit to impute improper motives to the Provincial Government. As he said before, no Provincial Government was perfect, but he apprehended that, taking them on the average, they were almost as perfect as the average of Colonial Ministries. He would only point out that if the proposal made :in the statement of the Hon. the Minister for • Public Works were given effect to, tue districts of Rodney, Waitemata, and Marsden would come in for a very email share of the £25,000. It was proposed that £6,250 should be spen every yenr for four years in tho northern parts of the Province. "He calculated that those districts would obtain something like £3,000 a year, the balance of £3,250 being spent in the more northerly districts, where the Government propose to spend £10,000 a year for fire years. A larger amount was expended annually in the norlh by the Provincial Government, bo there was no need whatever for the

House to im«,." D ° 3e ] H,tw f a .. tba P ™™ olal Council of Auaw nd . t and . thesa dlßt ™ *•• Moreover, these distrio J sen * hke six or seven representative. the , J™?™ 31 Council; while nearly all the me^ heTa fortLe city constituencies had properties in tbesi? d>B- - There was not, therefore, the slightest reason to suppose that Waitemata, KodnbT' and Marsden would be neglected by the Provincial Council. In point of fact, they were too important political centres for the Provincial Council or Government to neglect them. He trusted that, in this matter, they would receive even-handed justice froill the GovernJ ment. The Colonial Treasurer had not explained, to his satisfaction, nor had he satisfied any impartial miad, that there was anything exceptional in the circumstances connected with the taking over of the Kuipara railway to distinguish it from the taking over of the railways of Canterbury or Otago. If the Government chose to make the railway out of the public works fund, and not debit the Province with interest or capital account, then he could understand the Colonial Treasurer's argument, but not otherwise. He should sup-p-ort the honorable member for Bodney, and trusted ho would press the motion to a division.

Mr. MoLsod wag sorry the- last speaker should have used remarks calculated to cause a division in the Auckland camp'. He should rather have complimented theDefenceMinister, instead of making allusions which, implied Miat the southern portion of the Province of Anckland had been tapped by roads in a manner calculated to draw its trade to Hawke's Bay. This is one way to look at it; but there wae another light in which it might be regarded,namely, that the Defence Minister was tapping those parts of the Province of Auckland and Hawke'aßay with roads for their own benefit. What would be the state of the southern portion of the Province of Auckland and of the Bay of Plenty if it was not for the absolute influence which the Hon. the Defence Minister exercised over the natives ihere ? If they had pursued the policy which had been pursued by their own Superintendent during the last two years, life and property would not, as it was now, be safe in the southern portion of tho Province. The trade of Hawke'e.Bay itself was not very much, and most of it went to Auckland by means of coasting vessels ; indeed, a very large portion of the trade of Hawke's Bay itself, as well as the districts in question, found ita way to Auckland. With reference to the £400,000, he wished the House not to be misled by the statement of the Colonial Treasurer on that point. When the debate began, ic was definitely stated that the money required to give effect to tho motion wa9 to be takon from the £400,000 set apart for the North Island, aud in voting this £100,000 the House would in no way trench upon tho £400,000 allocated to the Middle Island; and the Colonial Treasurer's argument on this part would not hold water. As to the Kaipara railway, ho thought the Government proposals were fair and equitable, and if there was anything with which, a3 representative of that district, ho had to find fault as to the conduct of the Superintendent, it was in reference to this subject. It was all very well to say, " Stand shoulder (o shoulder, and work for the interests of tho Province ;" but truth must stand before all these petty emulations, and ho maintained that the General Government had a claim of £27,000 upon the Kaipara railway, and no one knew it better than the Superintendent of Auckland. He (the Superintendent) retained £27,000 from appropriation by the Provincial Council for an entire year, in order to meet the debt due on account of expenditure in Waikato. During last session, the Colonial

Treasurer settled the matter with the Superintendent, by agreeing that the latter might go on with the railway, provided that tkie £27,0J0 was expended on tho work. Now the Government proposed to take over the railway entire, paying more than £12,000 for it; and that the province should not pay but expend, out of the £27,000 of debt, the sum of £25,000, such sum to be expended in the northern districts. Such was the state of the case, aud he wished it to be understood. The honorable member for Eden had alluded to the district where he lived, viz., Kaipara, or Helensville, aud said that he had no reason for complaint. No one knew better than the hon. member that he (Mr. McLeod) was 'the pioneer of that district ; that he contributed two-thirds of the coat of opening Kaipara Harbour, in providing pilot station, lio:ues, and offices, &., and that he incurred considerable outlay, indeed no less than £1,000, in opening up twelve miles o! road from Helensville to tho Waitsinata. He was perfectly satisfied with Ihe proposal of the Government, provided tlu»y confirmed the expenditure of the £20,00J in the district; for although the district might not be in a very prosperous state at present, ho was perfectly certain tho money would be at tho disposal of tho Government at a future period. He believed that nine-tenths of the members of the Provincial Council, of which he (Mr. McLeod) was a member, ardently hoped that tbe General Government would take up that railway, and a great majority of the people, if not all, in the Province, were under the impression, when the Superintendent eanio down to Wellington, that ho came with the express intention of handing that railway over to the General Government, or to make tho necessary arrangements towards completing that object; in fact, a personal friend of the honorable member for Auckland City West (Mr. Gillies)—he could almost say his right-hand man —had begged of

him (Mr. McLeod) to support the honorablo member in carrying o.ut that object. Indeed, so general was the wish in favour of tliis arrangement, that he ventured to say the honorable member would have been agreeable enough to the transaction, provided the suggestion had emanated from himself; and if the people of tho district were deprived of this expenditure, he would lay the blame at the door of the Superintendent of Auckland. He (Mr. McLeod) was still willing to stand by his coiloague (Mr. Farnall), in urging upon the Government that that Bum of money slioula be spent in their district. He had no doubt but tbat the £25,000 would _ revert to the General Government indue time—that

was, if the Kaipara Railway were taken over — and then, in turn, tho £'25,000 rrould go to the districts of Kodney and Marsden. In the meantime it was too bid for their Superintendent to stand iu the way as a barrier to their progress. Mr. GILIIES trusted he should over be a barrier to jobbery and corruption, and especially as long as he was the Superintendent of Auckland. So long as he had any power he would endeavour to prevent one district from taking an advantage of another, or one member misrepresenting the opinion of the whole Province. What ho objected to in these proposals was already stated. It was not the taking over the Kaipara railway that he objected to. In common with other representatives of the province, he had urged upon the Colonial Treasurer last session what he was prepared to urge upon him still ; but he was not prepared to agree to the General Government taking the railway over on their own conditions. On behalf of the Provincial Government, and of its Council, he asserted their right to dispose of their own moneys as might seem to them to be right. It might be that the Council would think fit to ofler £25,000 to the districts north of Auckland, and he would have no objection to that beingdone; but he must deny tho right of the House or of the Government to dispose of the money belonging to the province, however such an arrangement might suit these members who were supporters of the Government, and wore looking out for favours to come, or those who had made such representations to the General Government as to lead them to believe that the Superintendent and people ot the province were prepared to do a thing upon which neither he nor they had ever been consulted. , , Mr J Relit said the matter nai two aspects, and should be looked at from a colonial point of view as well as locally. Hβ understood that, by the bill passed last session, the greater portion of the monoy to bo expended was to be utilized for the purpose of opening.up disturbed native districts especially, so as to guard against the possibility of another war. That was the great principle underlying tue bill, and that having been once agreed to, he

could see no reason why it should be altered now. If the proposal came to a division, he should feel bound to Tote against it, as being opposed to the policy sanctioned last session. This proposal asked for the expenditure of £100,000 in the northern settlements of Auckland, while there only remained about £300,000 to be expended of the £400,000 set apart last session under the Immigration and Public i Works Act, as £100,000 was expended before t 'lj e commencement of the present financial rear If the nort ' l squired £100,005) to be soen't in / bose P articular districts, doubtless another appliu" l^ 011 , wo " ld be made {rom some other ports ot th ° such as the "Waikato or the JSast Coast for another £100,000,. aod then «^ nI J another £100,000 would remain to- be di»b." ibuted amongst the other Provinces. If one proy of that kind were agreed to,, it would only be the precursor of many others of » similar nature, and result in what the Colonial Treasurer well described as a " scramble for money." It would be much better if proposals of that kind emanated from the Government instead of being, made by private members. It appeared' from the etatements of honorable members supporting the resolution, that the district had in times past been rather unfairly dealt, with by the Provincial Government of Auckland—at any rate such had been asserted—and that they had good grounds for a claim against the provincial funds. He regarded the proposal of the Colonial Secretary as a fair compromise, and he must therefore vote against the motion.

Mr. Wood said if the Colonial Treasurer had, as the member for Edeu showed, raiaed a false issue as t» the source from Which, the money was to Yr derived, he had certainly also raised a false : . sue as to the facts of the case. This was sho .* », he thought, by the remarks made by the honorable gentleman who had just sat down. 'What was the fact as regarded tho motion of the honorable member for Bodney ? Honorable members would recollect that the resolution appeared upon the Order Paper a long time ago: tho Government accepted, one portion of it, and asked that the other portion might stand over until the statement of the Minister of Public Works had been made. Well, they had since heard that statement, and the honorable member was dissatisfied with the proposals the Government made, and was, in consequence, opposing thetn. That was the real position of the honorable member for Bodney. Hβ (ilr. Wood) was surprised to hear the Colonial Treasurer say, on one occasion, that he was desirous of giving the utmost latitude to the discussion of all those matters ; and yet, wheu one honorable member sought to discuss in committee something of very great interest to the part of the cauntry he represented, and showed that the proposals of the Government were quite inadequate, he was told that he was acting improperly, and that the matter should be left entirely to the Government. It would appear from this that the Houso was not to be allowed to have a voice in the matter. He must also take objection to the whole mode of procedure taken by the Government with, regard to their proposals for the construction of roads, for they showed an utter want of any comprehensive plan. It was a bit of a road here, aud a bit tliere, and the practical result of such an arrangement would be that in a few years the bits of roads would be overgrown «nd not a trace left. The difference between the member for Rodney and the Government consisted in the way they each, proposed to carry out tho work. While tho bonorablo member wanted to see a trunk line of road which would opon up the whole district, the Government propose to make a bit here, and a bit there, in one part of the district only. He was not connected with, the locality referred to, nor had he any interest in the "proposed roads, but he had no hesitation in aaying that the proposal of tho honorable member for Bodney would be of very considerable benefit in opening up the whole country generally. Such a road had, at any rate, the prospect that it could be made useful and payable, while the mak ins of little bits, as contemplated by the Government, would only be wasting and squandering the money. Although the discussion had assumed an appearance not unlike those debates on southern questions which, had been termed " Otago free fights," he could assure the House that it had not been brought forward in a local spirit at all. The question was one which should be regarded from a colonial poiut of view, and lie trusted honorable members would look at it in that view, and bring their local knowledge to bear upon tho Government, and, if possible, prevent the squandering of the public money. He should therefore support the motion of the honorable member for Kodney, who he hoped would not withdraw it. Mr. D. McLeax said the honorable member for Parnell hud misapprehended the spirit of the Government proposals, because, if he examined tkcm, ho would find that the Government plan was a thoroughly comprehensive one, us it proposed to open up every part of the North Island ; in fact, the chief f.-ature of the schemo was that it opened up a main line from which would branch subsidiary roads in all parts of the Island. It was not, as the honorable member for Parnell stated, a piece here and a piece there; there was one uniform design running through, the scheme propounded by tho Minister of Public Works. He must take exception to the remarks of the honorable member, wheu he lalked of the money being squandered, ns it wits sufficiently obvious to every one that the main line of railway proposed would be the means of opening up communications throughout the North Island. Had the honorable member looked at the report of the public works and roads projected in that Island, he must surely have modified his opinions somewhat. He regretted to have to say that a great portion of the Province of Auckland — the neneglected part he might call it—had, up to the present time be<-n deprived of its fair proprotion of expenditure. Hβ must take exception to what had fallen from the honorable member for Parnell, for the Government had given their most careful consideration to the formation of roiins for the purpose of connecting the northern districts ; step by step this had been done, not only in the case of Auckland, but also in Napier, Wellington, and Taranaki, and the smallest settlements had received assistance in the same way. The roads in the districts north of Auckland were provincial roads ; there was good communication by means of water to different bays and inlets, and a certain amount of money had been spent by Government in that direction ; but the province itself should have done more in the same way. A statement had been made to the effect that the Government wanted to coerce the province. The fact was simply, as had been before stated, that they were willing to make an arrangement -with the Superintendent of Auckland to take ovev the Kaipara railway, on condition of his spending £25,000. Now, this it seemed to him was a very reasonable proposal, considering that the railway would cost over

£40,000. Mr. GiniES : Hβ cannot do it. Mr. McLean was quite sure, in that event, that the honorable member would assist the Government to give the Superintendent the necessary power to get rid of the difficulty. There was no doubt that the road in question was a very desirable one, and the honorable Member for Rodney Lad got the promise of the Government that they would do the best they could. That honorable gentleman would be in a better position if he would withdraw hie motion, and confer with the Government so as to arrive at a fair and equitable understanding.