General Assembly of New zealand.

New Zealand Herald, Volume III, Issue 897, 28 September 1866, Page 6

General Assembly of New zealand.

HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES. TUESDAY, SEPTKMBER 18,1866. The SrjBAKER took the chair at 5 o'clock. DEBTORS AND OKEDITOBB BILL. Mr. Hahoheaves Siiid that ho had given notice of motion for that day to repeal the Debtors and Creditors Acts, 1862 and 1865, hut it did not appear on the °rder Paper. He would like to know therefore whether he could put the motion. The -PKAKER Baid he was sorry that the notice had been misla d. However, as no blame was to be attached to the hou. member, he thought that by the indulgence of the House he could put his motion that night. Mr. Hakgeraves said that he would move next day for leave to introduce a Bill to ropoal tho Debtors and Creditors Acts 1862 and 18G5. THE STAMP DL'TIRS. On the question boingputfor tho seeondreading of a resolution pused in Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. 0 Wabd, without notice, rose to move an amendment. In doing so, ho said that the Government should willingly consent to hear all the reasons, and to consider all the amendments from any quarter however humble, in favor of the public as against a new form of taxation. (Hear, hear.) The amendment he was about to propose might at first sight apoear somewhat of a class of the one-sided kind ; ho might appear to be actuated by a feeling manifested by one part of the Colony towards the other, because it was intended to draw a distinction between the Southern and Northern Islands. His amendment was to the efieot that Mie Stamp Duties, a resolution to impose which had been raportod, shnild be levied on t'ie Northern Island only. (Hear, hear.) If ir should appear to the members of the Northern Island that this amendment was proposed by him with any foaling of animosity—with any kind of feeling conveyed bv him in any kind of way as a Southern member —he could assure thein that such a sentiment had never entered into his mind; for he believed that the amendment was really for the benefit of the North as well as for the South. He was going to ask the House to agree with him in adding to the words of the resolution the words, "To be levied on the Northern Island only." He brought forward this amendment because, from tho discussion of a previous night, he clearly saw, and tho House could not have failed to perceive, that tho Northern Island was desirous of protecting itself, and tho Bouthern Maud was equally dosirous of protecting itself. But their objects wero not precisely similar, and the reason why the Auckland membors voted with the Government was in order that tho Southern Inland, in its abundance, should not commit a tyranny over tho North, and deprive them of those revenues on which thoy depended for a supply of their necessities. Tho hon. member proceeded to call in question tho inotive3 that had induced tho Auckland members to vote almost as oae m-in on the motion fjr the imposition ofdtainp Duties, and reitor.itod his opinion that thot'3 wis no necessity to provide for tho appropriation of tho Government— Pith 'v for itself or Provincial Government —bv extraordinary taxation. If Auckland wanted to secure her full three-eighths of the Customs' revenue, why should she desire it at tho expense of the -outh ? If the policy of the Q- >vdrnmant bo not to equalise taxation upon the shoulders of the people ; if it be not necessary to provide for their appropriations contemp ated and insisted upon by that House; if it bo not to fulfil the necessities of the Provinces themselves, he would ask whit was policy of the Government ? He thousrht it was wduced to a policy of stamps. (A laugh.) It was not that stamps wou ; d do good ; it was not that th-iy w-juld provi le revenue; it was not that they would improve the condition or the Provinces; no, the Government exclaimed " stamps" and thev would have taom. If that was the policy of the Government, it reminded him of tho policy of B >mba<tes Furioso, who stu;k up his baots. (Laughter) Ho had shown tho rfouso that the imposition of a .Stamp Tax wjs not necessary *o raise revenue; he had pointed out the minner in which extraordinary Uxation would ba felt, and ha cautioned the Hou<e against interfering with those commercial operations, wriich were essentiil to the real progress and advancement of the Colony. The hon, member for Parnell had talked about the poorer classes, and averted th-it a St-nnp Pax would not press upon them. What did he imtgiae wa-t moint bv the pojrer classes? In his opi lion, what tie poorer classes signified in thii C dony wero those that did not thrive aswdlas they should. The hon. member, in an eloquent speech, went on to inform the House of the •n-intier in which further taxation would be felt, and concluded by mo vingth-) amendment above mentioned.

Mr. J. Riciitfxs-D, in reply, real irked thit his hon. friend the m imber for Avon (ilr. Ward) need not be ala mel at the s h-HuU the Grovernment propo sod to introduce. ,v ith respect to the item "ordinary transfers of property,'' the totil amount of taxation imposed on that item would not be more than £6,000 per annum. The Speaker then put Mr Ward's amendment, and declare i it to be lost on the voice). Mr. FtTZHERBBRT moved that a Bill ba orderod to be brought to give eff;ct to the raaolu'ion of the House. The Bill was then brought up and passed the preliminary stage. WATS AVD MEANS. The TTouße then resolved itself into Committoo of Ways and Means. Mr. J. O'N'eictj begged to withdraw the the following resolutim :—" That this Committeo is of opinion that miy extra sums of money which may be required for tha public service, ou.r>it to be taken ■iut of the territorial revenue of the O .lony in proportion to the amount contributed by each Province respectively." Hon. members from the South were suffering so much from stimps that he would not press bis motion. (Hear, hear.) An hon. member: That is, indeed, vory kind of you. (daughter) Mr. Fitzgerald intimated that ho was desirous of putting a question to the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, an answer to which he did not request that night. For sotno years pa't, the surplus expenditur of the Colony had been allowed to accumulate, an laßt yeai it amounted to something like £50,00) or £'>0 000, beside: £20.000 over-paid to the Provinces, of which no acoount hii been taken. Ho wished therefore, to ask the hon. the Colonial Trearur»r when he had consi lered tho question, if he would come down to the House and state what course the Q-overnment intended to take with regard to the surplus expenditure, or whether they -would allow it to stand over, as in former cases, to the chapter of accidents. With regard to another matter of which he had spoken, he wished to say, after the explanation that had been given by the hon. member for Parnell (Mr. Whitaker) with respect to the £100,000 advanced to Auckland —an explanation which was most straightforward and lucid ia is character—thac he took a different view of the matter to that he did before from previous information. Jfe did not wish it to be inferred, however, that he agreed with tho propriety of tho advance to Auckland, although, his objections to it had been considerably mitigated. Beins; a party to the negotiationj that had been carried on, he wiihed to remark that it was contemplated to give tho la-id* in question over to AuckUnd for the purpose of relieving the Government from those cash payments they would otherwise have had to make.

Mr. Fitzhehbeut ropliod that he would give an answer to the question put by the hon. member for Christchurch when Mr. Vogei'a resolutions came on or discussion next day. Considerable opposition was manifested by hon. members to the consideration of the schedule being proceeded with, on the ground thatlhey had not had sufficient time to look into it. An amendment was moved to the effect that the Chairman should report progress, whi.:h, however lost on n. division by a mnj jrity of six. Mr. exonerated the Government from any blame in the mitter. On Friday instructions were given to have the schedule distributed, but as parties were sinco then going in and out of the Ohnmber, one of the clerks Btated that he did not consider it nxuedient to place the schedules in the pigeon-holes of hon m-mbers. If the Committee was not inclined to go on with the consideration of tho schedule, of course the Government would raise no objection, as they had no desire whatever to press anything forward which hon. members had not proper time allowod them to consider. He would leave the matter entirely in the hands of the Committee. Mr. John Williamson' considered that the request for postponement was not an unreasonable one. Mr. Stafpohd moved that the Chairman should repoit progress, with leave to sit again. He did not wjsh it to be said hereafter that the schedule had been forced through, wh le members did not know what they were voting for or againßt. After considerable discussion, The Chaibman reported progress, with leav» to sit again oa Thursday.

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 1866: The Speaker took the obair at 5 Several r ports of Committees were brought up. THE DKBTOHS' AND CREDITORS ACT; Mr. Hargueaves, after making a few remarks on tho present state of the Bankruptcy layyih the Colony, movod,—" For leave to bring in a Bill intituled'An Act to repeal tho Debtors and Creditors Act, 18G2,' and 'The Debtors and' Creditors &ct Amendment A"t, 1865.'" . Mr. t urtis said that he was well acquainted with the two Acts referred to, and f hey appe.area to him to be quite fit to remain on tho Statute Book, but the face was that all thoir provisions were, not being carried out. They raisht also be more cheaply ad-ministered-especially if the KeSidcnt Magistrates in the colony could act as Commissioners in Bankruptcy. Mr. James Williamson supported, tho motion, stating that the present law was much, dislikyd in. Auckland, and that it had the effect of giving too large* oportion of debtors' estates to the officials. Major CakGili, said that the Acts were good, hut they had been badly administered—chiefly owing to tho conduct of creditors. If.would.be rather ; astrohg remedy to repeal them altogether: creditors would be worse o+'then than now, because the old ordinances, by whom the first j adgment creditors got the whole estate and tho rost went without, would then come in force. He was sorry to differ in opinion from Chambers of Commerce, but ho thought that they were not so well qualified to judge as. Provincial Councilmon, as they took.a view too favourable to creditors. t The Hon. E. W. Stafford hoped after what had been said that the mover would withdraw his resolution ;ho surely could not have considered what would be the position of affairs if such a BUI as this were to become law. Ho (Sir. Stafford) did not look with any disf ivor on Chambers of "Qommprce, but was inclined to receive their views with, great caution and suspicion, as thoy wore self-elected bodies, looking after their own interest. Creditors appeared to bo disappointed that they could not'got 2Cia in the pound without any expense, and that was the reason why they wanted to have the Acts reppaled. A Bill would be introduced by them very shortly toj make some slight amendments in tho law and they proposed to go no further this Session; but they might propose some important alterations in the law next Session, after seeing the action of tho Imperial Parliament in matters connected with Bankruptcy.

Mr. Reynolds Baid that the Government would see now that they ought to have assented to his motion for a Select Oommiitce, so that this matter might have been enquired into. It was all vqry well to snoer at Chambers of Commerce, but the members of them were acquainted with mercantile anairs, while there was often a great deal of ignorance with respect to them on the tJovernment bonchos. He thought the Bill should bo introduced, but ha by no means pledged himself to support the soqond reading. Mr. BcrNxr called attontion ta the great quantity of business on the p*per and said that as the House had baen sitting for three months, such a motion as this should not ho brought forward. Mr. Maughtos h'id said that the Premier hail stated that if thoao Acts were repaiiled, the old law of 1811 would bo in force, but tho fact, was, that there would be no law at all, but a return to chaos. He might inform the House, that there had been a meeting of tho Chamber of Commerce, in Uunedin, convened by Mr. Reynolds, the member for Dunodin ; that seventy-two members were invited ; sixteen only came nnd nine voied for the repeal of the Act Mr. Fitzokralo supported the mption and said, that the Bid could be so worded that there would rot bo a return to chaoi, as Mr. Haughton had said. If the Acts referred to were ropoaled now, attention would be called to tho subject, and a new Act could be brought in next suasion. Mr. Wkitakek supported the motion atsomolongth,. Mr. Harqr<savbs said, in replying, tint the country had got on much batt3r with th* Old law In force, bef jre these Acts were and since thjon thare has boen an amount of recklessness aad robbery which had not existed before, He dii npV think any of the members of the Government could have suflered from the working of tho presont law, or thoy would assent t~> tho motion. On the question that leave Da givon. to introduce tho Bill, the II m3o divided. Ayes—2s. Noes—3-1. Tho Bill was thei read a first time. JURIES BILL. On tho motion of the Ujn. J. Hall, the following Bill wm real a first time:—A Bill to eonvilidiUo and amend tho law relating to Juries in New Zealand. POSTAL hill. On tho motion of tho Hon J. Hadl, the House went into Cj nmittee ti consider of leave beia? given to introduce a Hill to am ml the Post Office Act, and to fix certain rates of postage. t'ho Hon Jons Hall slid that Hi* Bill would give certain powers to deal wkh deal letters and tt.t certain rites of pojtigo. The Government could hive made the alterations bv an order in Uouucil, but preferred to take tho opinion of the House. Mr. C. Ward asked whether the power to jmake the order in Council would be repoaled. The Hon. J. Hall replied that it. wouliJ be repealed, but no order in Council could be made to override the Act. Loave was given, to introduce .the Bill, and the House resumed. ATTOUXEV CrENERAL HILL. Tho Hon. E. W. Staff >rd in moving for leave, to introduce a Bill to regultte the appointment and tenure of offico of Attorney General of .New Zealand said that tho object of it was to make the app 'intment a permanent oug. The Bill was introduced and read a first time. NELSON I'ASTOBAL LANDS LEASING BILL. Mr. Curtis, moved the second reading of this Bill, he sail that it had not been before tha Provincial Council of Nelson, but wis assented to by hitnsplf and another member, who might be said to represent the two parties in that Council, After some discussion, the dobate was adjourned. HELIOIOTJB 110DIE8 TBIBOVALS BILLS. On the question that tho House go into Committee on this Bill, Mr. Whitakbr made an explanation of tho objects of tbo Bill, stating that it hidbeon preparod by hir William Martin and had been sanctioned by the Bishop of New Zealand, and would bo applicable to all religiius bodies. It did not make any new law but simply declared what was behoved to be the law, bo as to place it beyond doubt and avert the necessity of a law suit at any time hereafter" to nettle the question.

Mr. Haughto* said; that this Bill had boeti brought in at the request of one or two members of one religious bo ly only, and ho thought it would be well to consult all tho religious bodies in New Zealand, before it passed. He believed that the Bill would be found most oppressive, and that it would be possible under it to establish even an inquisition in New Zealand. Mr. Oaboili- said he would object to the Bill unlcsi it was proposed to apply it only to tho Church of Knglnnd. Mr Dick objected to tli6 House in any way interfering with the religious opinions and affairs of any person- Cue colony had hitherto been One of the freest in the worl i in tho matter of religion ; be looked on the Bill as an attempt to get in the thin edgo of tho r.egi-dation in religious matiars, and he would therefore object to it. Mr. Bbandon- said that tho object of tho Bill, although he believed it to bo unnecessary, was simply to give tho Bupreroe Court power to enforce the edicts of religious tribunals. He objected to the idea that the decision of these tribunals should be considered as ultimate, and should, opposo the Bill. Mr. C, Wiisoir rogretted to see the introduction of this Bill, as it would have the effect of creating a sect in the Church to be called Sir W. Martin's or the Bishop of New Zealand's. These tribunals would have the power of creating offences and punishing thorn by tho most severe enactments. For , his part he had not much faith in the judgments of religious tribunals, and should vote against the motion. Tho Hon. J. Hail said that fcbo Bill was unnecessary, and ha would not support it, but he did not think it would give any increased spiritual power, although it might bo looked on with suspi. ion. Mr. Boblase that he lo >ked on the Bill with more than suspicion j it would cause tyranny establish in inquisition in New Zealand. If the Bill wasi pasned the only way for a man to escape persecution would be to post up this announcement, "I belong to no religious body whatever." Mr. Br.vNT said that this Bill would have the effect of reviving the glorio- s days of the Spanish inquisition, and he was surprised that any one out o? the nule of the Roman Catholic Church should have brought it forward. Under its jDrovi ions, if a number of a religious community was unfortunate enough to get drunk three times in aye*r, he could be visit- I ed with all kinds of penalties. He would move that j the Bill V« oomiait tod that day six months ago. I

M^.JBuHKS l als^ l siipVo , ■a , galhst^the!■Bfllf :^l .'. i ... l ,^.■_■, ;... J Tilt. FItzaBKALD said that.. after ..tbe>: Clbje'ctipni raised, which seemed to him to be badly founded, it : Would be advisable perhaps to ...withdraw .-the -Bill. The object of it was merely to remove disabilities un :; der which the Chr.irch of England labored in this., colony. Whereas the other Churches We had their own f.Trn.s of Government, the. English Church, had none, and could not create briefer fear of offending against the Ecclesiastical Law. He hoped that tho matter would be taken up ori.another occasion. Mr. CahletoN said that he wou d object to the Bill, as he believed it would be the first step ■td.w.ards, ! creating ah independent church in New Zealand. He could, not understand the grounds on which :seyeral ■ members had opposed the Bill; foe this "wicked"' power of religious tribunals to have the Supreme Court, was already undoubtedly enjoyed by every other body but the Church of England, and was he believed possessed !iby that church. In conclusion, Mr. Carleton said, that if there was a division he would riot vote at all. Mr. Whitaker in replying said, that the character .of the Bill had. been much mistaken. The hon,. member then recapitulated the real objects of. the Bill, which were simply to remove from the Church of England tho disabilities under which she labors by the doubtful state of the law;. On a division the Bill was ordered to be committted that day six months. The House, adjourned.