HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Herald, Volume II, Issue 340, 14 December 1864, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

MOXDAY, DECEMBER -EITLEIiS DISPOSSESSED BY HEKE'S VAlt. [Continued.] Mr. Coixyso thought they should ho just before they were generous. They should also apply the statute of limitations to these claims. 3lr. Cauleton thought the hon. gentleman Mr. Colenso bad too great a leaning towards the statute limitations. It amounted to saying that a debt should not be paid, however just, beyond the limitation of the statute. Colenso explained that in his opinion the country was heavily taxed, and would be taxed more heavily still, and that it was necessary to be just with tne publio money before they were generous. ilr. Cakletox said the fact was that martial law :ad been proclaimed, the settlers were ordered on board ship, they could not help themselves. I [lla.jor I'icitAHDsox said that much older claims in all probability be preferred. There was lor instance the murders of the Wairoa. There was the case of the ' Endeavour.' He might claim as a descendant from the captain accompanying Captain t°ok. \\ j, e v,,. j us tifi e d. jn preferring a claim tor the murder of that officer t llr. Cakleiux taid if the hon. tho Fostmastert>ontrul would put forward his own motion, he (Mr, wloton) would support it. He did not care about the P n ° n ty of claim ho much as t hat it was just. ilr. Fox hoped the hon. gentleman would withraw the niutiuii. It was his opinion that all theso c hum should be deferred till peace was restored, and C:1 thut they should be considered together. There °'h<:r claims, the Auckland claims for instance. jli\ \A ij.n.raso.v said that there was a great ne-cs-sit} of investigating the nature of a claim at thi* possible, that it originated ; the late Governfl'Cn had investigated the claims of Auckland somo- '. l:ue been dono for these claimants. • , ' x "aid that last session they were under the T| S rHtt ' ons °' l ' lc House in rcspect to those matters. , e .°I" n ' on of the House then was that these claims '.? u J 3 ® a 'l taken together. There might many • tT ''aims accrue. There was Wanganui for fh . aDCe ' ,^ lcre w-as 110 blame to the settlers. ofli^"" Wei 'i ' llv °' vt, d in the proceedings of Imperial tn Wls ' •. certainly appeared the more usual tourse iii«| Co 'i U al ' " le claims arising out of rebellious ur '"■'•"•'i when the disturbances had ceased and * '-' le losses sustained could be estimated U J>SU EOffic- general principle. —~ ~ -

Mr. Bbow.y said that ho agreed with liia lion, frjend as to old land claims boing settled, but he thought ho had displayed bad generalship in putting tlio claims of tho Northern sottlers on a footing with tho Taranaki settlers ; at tho same timo depreciating them, ■Ihc.larauakisetllersbrouglitwarou themselves, liio natives debated tho question, whether tlioy should !i lt oilt . Nvlt ' 1 Majesty's troops nloue, and they told lnm (Mr. Brown) that if lio would refrain from calling out militia, they would tako caro of his family. He (Mr. Brown) said ho must obey tho Government Not one of tho se/tlers' houses would liavo been burnt, if they had not taken up arms. \\ ith regard to tho 'abstract question, ho was nuito prepared to put it on its own merits. Mr. Graham: said tho settlers in the Bay of Islands had given every assistance to-tho Government-. 11c believed they ought to have compensation. Mr. Fitziieubert said ho would movo as an amendment that tlio motion should bo considered next session, as ho did not wish to prejudice the claims of the settlers. It was ultimately agreed that the question should bo considered next session. THE WILD ISIHIIS I'HOTECTION IULL, ANI) XATCUALIZA- ■ TION" 1!1LL. Those bills were read a third time and passed. AUCKLAND WASTE LANDS ACT, 185S, AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. O N eili. said this bill ought to bo recommitted because things affecting the Province ought to be considered by the Provincial Council. The bill had not been assented to by it, ar.d a deputation had waited on tho Superintendent, who said if any member objected to it, it would be withdrawn, but to their astonishment it was not. There wore certain objectionable clauses in the bill. Mr. John Williamson said ho had been absent on tho occasion of the bill being brought before the House before. Ho had accepted the assurance of the h< n. member for Franklyn (Mr. R. Graham) that the bpi \rai correct, but several members of tho Provincial Council had told him that it did not meet their viows. He thought the bill should bo recommitted, so that tlio Provincial Council might consider it. Mr. I'itzherheht said tho House should look with suspicion on any attempt to overthrow any bill in so thin a House. This bill had been promoted by tho Superintendent of tho province. Ho trusted his lion, friend would withdraw his opposition. Mr. Domett said there was no question about tho propriety of taking the power to legislate with respect to waste lands out of the hands of Provincial Councils. It was contrary to tho constitution, and :ie thought it would bo well to tako away from them the power to deal with them at all, as it caused a ?reat deal of jobbery, or rather accusations of jobbery. After n few more remarks, the lion, member resumed his scat. Mr. O'Neili. said he thought there was an undovitanding that this bill would bo discharged. Ho would remind the hon. member of the Government that, the iecond reading took place in a thin House Mr. John Williamson spoko in explanation to the ion. member for Nelson. Mr. O'Rokke said ho thought the bill ought to bo ecommitted, as by tho sth clause he saw that tho mvileges of naval and military officers were thus aten away. Major Richardson said he had called attention o that point previously. Mr. Geo. Graham said he trusted tho bill would )e recommitted. Mr. lioiiEUT Graham said the bill had been pre>ared according to tho resolutions of the Provincial Council. Ho had told the deputation that had come 0 him that liej would consider the propriety of vitlidrawing the bill. He had no wish to go country to the wishes of the Provincial Council; After a fow words from Mr. Domett the bill was vithdrawn. AUCKLAND MVSIC HAL!. Mr. Domett repeated what he had said on a irevious occcasion with rcspcct to this bill, and moved ts second reading. Mr. John- Williamson said that a company hud )een formed and funds subscribed for tho erection of 1 Music Hall, and all that was wanted was a site 'rom the Legislature. He thought the object of the ?ill was a very desirable one. Tho bill was then committed, and was rea l a third iine and passed. After a little formal business the House adjourned :ill 11 o'clock to morrow. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13. Mr. Caki.eton, acting as Speaker, took the chair it eleven o'clock. The Clerk read the minutes of tho last sitting. SEAT OF IiOVERNMENT. Mr. John Williamson begged permission to ask he Government, without notice, a question with •eferenco to the next meeting of the General Assembly. Last session it was on! :ed that the then next meeting of the Assembly should be held at Oliristchureh. The reason was known why it was neld in Auckland instead. He desired to know nrhether there was any intention of holding the next Assembly at L'hristchuvch, or whether it would, in pursuance of the Governmental programme, be hold it Wellington ? Mr. "Weld said the order of the last Assembly was given previous to decision of the Commission, and was subject to the question remaining undecided by tho Commissioners. The Commissioners, however, having made their report, the next meeting of the Assembly would be at Wellington. SURRENDER OF NATIVES t r NDEIi THE RECENT l'i-0-CI.AMATIOX. Mr. Fox wished, upon a point of order, to bring under the notice of Government the return he liad moved for on n previous day, of the number of natives who had come in under the terms of the Governor's proclamation. According to the return laid on the table, it appeared that some six or seven natives had come in, whose names were not known nor anvthing about them, and so far as appeared, that being the case, they could not take the required oath of allegiance, and nothing whatever was said about cession of land. It would rather seem that thev camc in under some other circumstances. At all "events the proclamation of his F.xcellcncy required ccssion of territory to be made to General Cameron, and nothing of the kind was mentioned. This return was therefore not correct, and ought to be amended, and so far as the information to be derived from this source was concerned, it did not appear that a single soul had come in in pursuance or in conformity with tho terms of his Excellency" s proclamation. Mr. Weld said it would bo impossible to say, m answer to a return moved for on the 9th, and laid on the table two days after, what number of natives ini"ht have accepted the terms of the Governor s Proclamation. Sudicient time had not elapsed to enable tho Government to give a return. Besides many natives might be coming in who had not reached Auckland. A report, therefore, made up on the tenth of the mouth could not be worth anything. Ji a thousand had come in from Kgaruawaliia the <*ovemment would hardly liare had time to obtain all tlio information desired by the honorable member Fox said ho did not object to tho Government declining to give specific information if they had no specific information to give. He did not object to specific information being given, which information must of necessity be incorrect. The return made should have beeu simply «U. Mr Wei.d said he understood from his hon. lrienU the Defence Minister that these natives came from Taranaki, and that they proposed tp cede any land that belonged to them, and which might be required of tin in. lie was quite di.-possd to withdraw the return f the House would permit him Mr Cuilexon said he was nut aware that there'was any precedent for withdrawing u return when once laid on the table of the H"mise. Mr Fox said tlicro was on;; instance ot leave ot t lie JJou-e had been given to withdraw papers which had been laid on the table of the House. It could only be done with the consent of the House. He alluded to the case of Major Cooper. Leave was given to the Colonial Treasurer to \.itlidruw the returns-I-HOFERTV AND INCOME TAX. HETIHEMENT OF >'H. STAi'i'cmi'Mr- SIAFFOUD moved, " That it is desirable that a bill be prepared bv the Government during the recc" to be submitted next session, for imposing propcrtv and income tax of-sullicient amount- to provide a'sinking fund for the Three Million Loav necessitated to meet tlicexpens s of the native rebe. lion." The hon. gentleman said, I am like.y to bi -told that in tho present comparatively thin House this is a subject of too large in,portan.-e, of toe wei"lit-y magnitude, to be now introduced. (Hear hear.) Allow ine to say to Ihut hon. gentleman whe i s:,vs " hear," that this is no fault of mine that tins n

so; but as a very largo number of gentlemen liavo chosen to rush away to their homes ou the verv clay that new taxes were imposed, and taxes I may add which press very heavily on some of tho necessaries of life, having, raised tin taxation on tea for I '"stance fifty per cent., which is a necessary of life almost to every member of the community, it is not | for lion, gentlemen to taunt me that there is not a j larger House. (Hear, hear.) There is another reason which induces nio to bring this subject beforo tho House even at this lato period I because it is not likely that I shall talio my seat in the next session of this Assembly which will bo held in \\ ellington or indeed in any future session, and this is the only opportunity I can have of placing on record my opinion—that having regard to the very largo expenditure in some directions—l will not say all—-and whichcannotbo considered other wisethan as lavish. And, looking to tho amount of taxation raised from a people not numbering at the outside more than 200,000 souls, men, women, and children, I think it is not improper that tho attention of the Government should be called during tho recess to this very important matter. I do not desire immediate action, but that the attention of the Government should be given to tho taxation of the country with a view to making it as equal as first and as litt'e onerous oil those who bear taxation as possible. The amount derived from those who will be all'ected by legislation on this subject will bo a mere trifle as compared with the taxation of the country. At the outside it will be only .COO,OOO, but as tho sinking fund only carries one per cent., it will be only £50,000. I do not propose to go farther than this in direct taxtion. I should be glad to see that ministers will not only accept this proposition as far as it goes, but that .they would also provide for the interest of war loan as well as for the sinking fund. I must sav say that I expect, if not entire support, at least the most favorable consideration from the honorable gentleman at the head of the Government, since 1 find by his speech at Canterbury which, if ho were not misrepcirted, must bo looked upon as the platform and programme of the action of tho Government of which ho is tho head ; so that, unless as I have said, he was misreported, lie would be willing to spend half his income for tho more purpose alone of seeing Taranaki reinstated. (Hear, hear.) If that honorable gontloman was sincere—and I cannot doubt ho was sincere—he would equally expend half his income for an object equally to bo dcsiiod—l mean, of eou so, the pacification of the country—the future dwelling together in peace of the two races in these islands. 1 think I am not unwarranted in the expectation that ho will give consideration and its due weight to the proposition which I now submit, to the House,and will not refuse tho very slight modicum that will be required out of tho very large oiler ho lias made ; ami that a provision, of such a kind for the purpose set forth in my motion, may bo placed on tho statutebook of the country. I am not about to detain the House by any lengthened arguments, or bv any essay in laying before the House the principles and distinctions between direct and indirect taxation. I will only remark that there is all over the world— amongst political educators, more especially on that branch of political science designated I'nuieo amongst economical olllcers and statesmen. There is, 1 s.i\", amongst such men, of whom the name of Stuart ISI ill lias obtained the greatest weight and respect, a growing feeling that favours direct taxation in preference to indirect taxation for providing for the fiscal burthens of the country. If that feeling is, as we know it to bo, gaining ground amongst the more intelligent and the more educated in tho most advanced countries oftlie world, I think it is a subject not either beyond or beneath the Government and Legislature of this colony, small though it is at present in point of numbers, to consider whether, by dealing with Urge amounts under the head of revenue and expenditure, they should not so adjust at least a portion of their revenue as to admit the introduction of a principle which is fast recommending it-elf to the politic d intelligence of the times as a right and proper means of providing for meeting financial exigencies—(Cheers.) Mr. UliOuiE seconded the motion. Mr. liaowx thought that was not the time to bring forward so important a motion. He thought the honorable gentleman might have brought forward the motion at an earlier period in the session, lto would move as an amendment that the orders of the day should bo proceeded with. Mr. StaitoUD : AVill the honorable gentleman say when I could have brought thU motion forward hefore ? Mr. I'lTZHEItiiKitT said he would give a reason why tho Government, in his opinion, should not be expected to enter upon the question which the honorable gentleman had raised. is Uoxob.uii.b SI em HE k: I think \vc ought to proceed with the orders of the day. .Mr. i"irziiiilsJsi:iiT said lie would only say a fewwords in respect to the most important question which, hud come before the House. Ho understood the honorable gentleman (Mr. Stafford) to speak in the sense of urging'- upon the consideration of Government a most important subject, not in the hope of procuring any present action. This was, no doubt, one amongst a number of other questions that would ari.-e. He would observe that this was a question which eminently deserved consideration, and one that it behoved any Government to whom it was suggustcd, well to consider, and which that Government would consider. Ho hoped that having said so much as in another place hon. members were awaiting the action oftlie House with respect to certain bills what he had said would have the oll'cet of preventing any further discussion of tho subject. Mr. Biioiue thought the assertion of the principle laid down by Hie hon. gentlemen Mr. Stafford was one tiiat could not be looked over. He thought that the tariff which had been passed in short a time a fewevenings before, would have a most depressing effect on the province, as far at least as Ulago was concerned. ft was useless to say that the hon. member for Nelson had had an opportunity of bringing his motion before the Hou-o at an earlier period of the session ; lie could not have done so, seeing so limited a time had elapsed sir.ee the ho:;, gentlemen the Treasurer had made his tinaneial statement. T!-.e motion was simply an indication of tho direction which taxation should take. Ho thought the opposition manifested towards tho motion was uncalled for. Mr. Caui.ktox hoped that lion, members would confine their remarks to the question before the House, the amendment of tho hon. gentleman Mr. 111-own. Mr. Voc.ei, protested against any attempt to stop discussion upon this important subject. The}' were I told in the speech from the throne to direct their j attention to the financial state of tho colony. H I thought tlie opportunity now atforded tho House of discussing llr's question should bo seized, the more particularly when coming from the hon. member for Xclsou, "who, from the services lie laid already rendered, entitled him to bo considered and ranked amongst the leading statesmen of tho colony. (Hear, hear). He (Mr. Yogel) felt deeply on this subjcct. Apart from all the other disasters which had befallen tho colony, or which might yet befall it, not tho least serious was tho loss of public men, who for years had taken a part in public aH'airs, and were now seen retiring into private life. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Dkuwx said that lie was most unwilling to interrupt lion, members, but ho would beg to persist in putting his amendment. I Mr. \Vj:i.d said he had suggested to the lion, meni- | ber for IS'clson that his motion should come on after • the Orders of tho Day. He understood that his sug- ; geation had been acceded to. i Mr. S-r.U'j'oi!i) said that no such proposition had | been made to him. The hon. gentleman (Mr. "Weld) j had given iva>ons why the motion should not be ' proceeded with, but there was no request made to I that elied. There had been a request made by an ! lion- gentleman, a member of the Upper House, lie ( (_Mr. Stafford) might be mistaken, but lie was not ; a'.vare that any request had been made by the lion, j gentleman opposite. After some discussion it was agreed that the debate should bo adjourned until afler the Orders of tho ; Hay, when it might ba renewed. Tho debate was , accordingly adjourned. KUSKIUX WATERWOHKS BILL. ; ! Mr. llitowx moved that the amendments made by i the Legislative Council in this bill be agreed to. i Agreed to accordingly. 1 ' rANTKItItI-JtV WASTE LAXDri HILL. • On the motion of Mr. ISitowN, the amendments , made to this bill in tho Legislative Council were i agreed to. j ACT JUIESTOTKNT KILL. ! ' The amendments made by the L-.-giflati*.e Coun.-i! , to this bill were also agreed to. ) i or CONS hill. | On the motion of .Vi\ It. Gkaiia-U, that tho auio id- ' I menls m ule by the L'giiLtive Conned to ihis bill b; > | agreed to, 5 ' 3lr. opposed the passing of the i; oasnro, oi

the grounds that the statement in tho preamble was I incorrect. lUr. J.no. Wir.ttAjrsox said if anything could reconcile him to the bill it would be the amendments; lio objected, however, to the bill because of (lie facilities it gave to the creation of paper money, and also to the opportunities lor forgery which it furnished, -the amendments were agreed to. . NATIVE LANDS ACT, SKCOXD KE.U>II\*G. Hiis bill wns read a second time, and tho House vent into committee. The clauses wore agreed to 'i'hi! hill was read a third time and pissed. Mr. 1" irziiKuiiKjix brought up tho report of tlio Joint Library Committee. Major KioiuiiDSON- laid 0n.t1.0 table the Report ot the telegraphic engineer. ItF.NKWAL OF TllE DEIIATE. Mr. A ooiCL said that the Government must bo prepared for an enormous amount of discontent in the Middle Island generally. It was impossible for him at that time to go into the question of direct taxation ; but there was one advantage in it —it taught people how much they were actually paying, and it taught them to take a more active share in public affairs, lfo was sorry to see that the taxation which was before £ t a-head was increased by tho Colonial .Treasurer by 255. lie wished tho resolution to finish at the words " property tax." The resolution was really at conflict with the last clause of tho three million loan Act. That the sinking fund if not met by the confiscation of land should be a burden on tlio provinces separately in so much as went for reproductive purposes, lfo did not think that tho Colonial Treasurer was justilied in imposing this tix to raise the small sum of ;C'iO,COU. They had not been able to do there what had been proposed—to discuss public measures with that consideration which is due to them. Ho did feel it was a calamity to think that an lion, member whoso horvices they all recognised, had told them that it was probably the last time he would address that House. They knew the reasons though he did not state them. One of the disastrous consequences of tho proposed removal of the seat of Government to "Wellington, was that many would be shut out lroni tho management of the affairs of tho colony— who were eminently titled to take a part in public aftairs. That was one of the legaciosthat local measures had left them. One of the consequences of their hurried legislation was that members found themselves committed to measures in a thin House, which many of them had been unable to discus?. He trusted the Government would not continue to impose such heavy restrieiivo duties, but would bo prepared to impose direct taxation. Mr, CVi.i-n'so said ho wished to say a few words on tho measure, because he represented a community who were pailicularly alive to any increase of taxation, particularly in such u matter as had been referred by tho honourable member, lie expressed his sorrow that the honourable member for Xelsou had said that it was likely that he was addressing that House for the last time. During (he four sessions he (Mr, Colenso) had sat in that House he had been delighted with what that honourable member said, and lie was sure other honourable members were of the same opinion. The measure to confiscate the land of the natives was a good one, and if it had been carried out in it-; integrity, there would have be: nno need for tlio present resolution. It was the just solution of their ditliculties in the eyes of men and God. If that coulJ not lie done ho v.-as ready to support it rather than any other motion to increase the taritf. Il was another proof of the mastermind which they had had so long amongst them. Mr. "Wi.'i.n said he had not hoard (he whole debate, but he should take the opportunity of l'eading what, was said afterwards in the newspaper, if seine of the honourable members would correct their speeches. The Government could nut give a peremptory decision on the measure. He could not sit down without expressing his regret at what had fallen from the honourable member for Kelson, lie trusted ho would reconsider what he said. He (tho hon. Mr. "Weld) v.-as sure that not only bis friends, but the whole country would mi;S the hon. gentleman in his absence. Mr. Stattoiw said he would be happy to adopt ti'.e suggestion of the hon. member /or Duncdiu (Mr. Vogcl), and omit all the words after " property tax." lie' ilid no! t!e.-ire to detain the House, beeaus.' not a single argument lia.l been adduccu against l'.i- measure except the fact of there being a thill House, an argument lie anticipated ill moving if. lie regretted that an lion, member, who was not then in his pla.e, had re; r■•ached him for not taking an earlier opportunity ol bringing it- forward. It was only on'lhursday niirht last under suspended oidcrs that the Customs Mill bad been brought in, and the 1 >vu other bills alio.-ting the loan were brought in and passed on the following night, a mode of action lie w add not make himself a "party to, for he went out of the House 0"l tho suspension of the standing orders. He did no| jmotv in what state the bills went through the House. On the next day there was u rush to their homes ol a considerable number of memoers. It was impossible for him to have introduced the measure nt an earlier period. He did not Knoiv why so much stresi was laid on the fact of its being a thin House. There were thirty-nine members in Auckland ilt that time, and that was quite a. suhicient number to eon:-ider any question brought before them. Wh >n the* were coming up for I .e season, they were told lliat they were not going to consider the ordinary normal subjects of legislation, not subjects of domestic legislation (with respect to which there had not been an attempt to bring mi} bill, be ore them), but they were told there were three important questions for their consideration, one of which was the relation between the Governor and his Ministers: the second, the poMtim which the colony was prepared to take with the Homo Governuient'with respect to despatches received from Mr. Cardwell, and as to tho guarantee of the loan and the whole financial position of tho colony. Standing orders had been fuspeuded, and hon. members motion? had been postponed to the orders of tlio day til! they had lapse I. They eventually passed the resolutions. He stated his opinion then, and the inure he had t'nought of it since the more lie felt pained that the -u' jet had been approa< bed in a crude and incomplete—he would not say improper —manner, lie did led know how the question of Ministerial responsibility stood, nor the position the colony Was to n.-sutue with regard to the mother c uiutrnor was he pleased with respect to the financial position of the countrv. With respect to the last statement made bv tlie Colonial Treasurer, it had bis entire approval.' He deserved great praise for his p.-omplil tide and resolution in restoring the credit ol the colony. But there was a large question connected with finance which had not ever been alluded to, the position of the provincial finances and loans with reference to the General Government. They knew that a large amount, of attention was directed to ft financial arrangement proposed and accepted between the late Government and tlio Provinces of Otago and Canter bury. The matter got into the public prints, and comments were made on it. The min is ot members were directed to it, and many expressed their opinion on it. Thev separated in total ignorance whether that arrangement was accepted or ignored by the present Government. That was a sample of the way in which the three great questions Jo which the House was called had been dealt with. 3' cc'.mg that that "was the case, and that there was a desire to treat. Uicso important subjects in 1 lint way, he illicit feci at leaving that House was mucii dimimNiiecl. lie* should be content to leave the motion in the same position as it was. There were a few members that if ho were to call for a division there would be no quorum, so that would be useless. lie was entirely ill tho hands of the Government. The SriiAKKU said a count out would be tantamount to an adjournment, which would prevent the prorogation alter a little conver-uiion. The lion. Mr. Weed said the hon. member was taking a nio.-t unusual course. Ho thought the Government must decline to take his motion. lie had alreadv slated the position of the Government. Mr." Stavfoud asked leave to with draw his motion. PETITION SAMCIi VICKKUS. On (ho motion of Mr. .loiix Yfn.i t-ns petition was referred to the Government. Liiiit.vuY eoH-iTn:!:. On the motion of Mr. lui/.itkhueui", the report o: the Library Committee was ordered to be prill Let. fIidIiOGATIOX. The House aljouvned till tie; minu!es_ to - o'clock-, when it met and proceeded to meet his tlxcelleney the Governor. The subsequent pre.ceectmg. will be found elsewhere.