General Assembly of New Zealand.

New Zealand Herald, Volume II, Issue 334, 7 December 1864, Page 5

General Assembly of New Zealand.

HCJSE OF REPRESENT ATI'YES

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 6. ThSrEAKF.R took the chair at 12 o'clock. ThCiBRK read the minutes of the last sitting. rATIT AITAIBS AXD JUNISTEBt.U, RESPONSIBILITY.

ADJOURNED DEBATE. Tbamended resolutions submitted by Government,rere read; also, the amendments proposed by hi? Hior the Superintendent, to be inserted at the end o'he third resolution proposed by Ministers. Thi in the present circumstances of tho colony it is esedient, as a temporary measure, that New Zealai should be divided into two separate colonies. That le Southern colony should have a Constitutional tovernment, administered on the principle of Ministrial Responsibility. That the Northern colony shoulthave such a Constitution as will enable the Imper.l Government to exercise such control over the maagement of Native affairs, as will enable her Majest's Government to take such measures as it may d?m necessary to suppress the present rebellion, and pvide safeguards against rebellion for the future.

That when the management of Native affairs shall ctee to form a special difficulty in the Government c New Zealand, the two colonies be reunited as oneolony under a single Government, to be establifhedn the locality which shall be most convenient to the lembers of the Legislature, and for the general inteests of the colony at large.

That her Majesty's Imperial Government bo most repectfully, but strongly, urged to give effect, withou delay, to these resolutions.

That these resolutions be embodied in an humble addess to hi» Excellency the Governor, requesting hiit to transmit them to Her Majesty's Principal Eecretny of State for the Colonies.

31r.: noli as Russell rose to resume the debate. He sail: Sir, In rising to say a few words on the questioi now before us, I desire at the outset to assure he hon. gentleman at the head of the Government tkt I do not in the course I am about to take, pnrticipte in any feeling whatever, of hostility to the GoTernnent. I recognise that these hon. gentlemen in havingandertaken the task of forming a government have mdertaken a responsibility of enormous difficult They are it appears to mo entitled to the thanks and support—as far as can be given conEi'ftentV with public duty—of every hon. member of this Hiuse. Independently of this there are other consideations that would incline me to support the hon. gmtleman until I should find points of divergencies between his views and mine so great as to render it impossible for me to. support him and the hoi. gentlemen his colleagues. The very first vote ■which t gave in my public life was given in support of a Govjrmneat of which the hon. member for Christchurch was a member, a government which if it hid retained power for a few years loDger. would have prevented that state of things into Mhich the colony is now drifting. Even after that gentleman left the Government mentioned, I continued to act with him, and it was my pleasure to be issociated with him in the division lists of this home (Bear, from Mr..Weld). It was not until he took into his mind the delusion that the evils whicl afflicted New Zealand —even the great native question—were to be settled, and all difficulties overcome by the removal of the.seat of Government to It was not until he took up that notion, which he has bo perseveringly adhered to ever since, that I began to differ on any material question with the hon: gentleman now lit the head of the Government. Sir, having eaid this much by way of preface, I may sdd that there is in my mind, and in the minds of the greater number of the Auckland members, a sincere desire to support the hon. gentleman. Though we may differ from some of the Government propositions, we have a firm conviction of the honesty of purpose of the head of the present Government; but when the hon. gentleman came down to the House with a policy cut and-dried, and not suited to (he circumstances of the times, in my opinion he committed a mistake. He came down to this House with a policy conceived in the province of Canterbury, in utter ignorance of the state of affairß which eiists in the northern part of this colony. Instead of enquiring whether that policy was suited to our circumstances, he threw it down on the table of this House, and no sooner had. he given time for an

elimination of its propositions, so that he and we could understand what they really meant, than he shrank from adopting it. I think that a little better knowledge of the. state of..affairs that lie is called upon to'gTapple with, would alter of the views which he now holds. The great ques'ion now before the .Hquse, which has been raised by the resolutions of tie hon. member for Frankly 11, '(Mr. It. Graham) is that which lies at the very root of the difficulty in the present crisis, and one which we must solve before we can expect to cope with the present difficulties of the country. The question is, how shall we get rid

of this double government of Imperial interference in the affairs of the country ? I need not say much to show that it is an evil acknowledged on all hands, and. one which the late Government felt so strongly that for months they fought against it, and. endeavoured to overcome it. The views the late Government held upon this-subject are seen in the papers already laid', before the House. We have teen taunted—we were taunted yesterday—with our ■want of success in coping with the difficulties of the country. One instance was pointed out as tho result of our action, namely, the Mcape of tho Native prisoners. I contend, sir, this very fact is about the best illustration I can give to this House of the mischief of double Government, and of interference with ministerial action If we had not been interfered with, these prisoners never have gone to the Kawau; and if they had not gone to tho Kawau they would be in safe custody to this day; and the colony would he Bavcd.from a most serious-complication, to which heir eEcapc has given rise. But the honorable gentleman feels as much as wo do the evils of double Government. Such is the magnitude of the evil ' n "is estimation that ho was prepared to lay down, as an alternative to get rid of it, the departure of the troops from the country. Rom passages in his own speech we can gather his confession of the danger and difficulty which would pi!? 'v. 8 an S er the character of -which he himself «£ t y pourtray, a danger inseparable from ■ state °*' affairs that would follow this policy, ccordmg to his own admission. Ho felt the diffiefft aS a PP aren t) hut I fail to Eee that any , made in these resolutions now proposed ? P u tting an end to that double Government which he had at first complained. He has conW double Government quite as much as and, I. do- not sea in these resolutions

'£ P £ Bal DOW ? 6t rid of il ' -would rathe ™H r S ? ed ' established, and perpetuated I would ask when will it bo got rid of niimit nBW Wp IS ' "i the . safet y of the colony wil R-'V., \ ma y a ®J £ a g a m, when will that be ? j think the hon. gentleman has abandoned the firs! position which he took in this House. (Cries oi No, no. ) I say it deliberately from an experience of some months of contest with the Imperial represaythiß double GoX- ™ be put an end to, and that it cannot go to wli' i i ° n ; ? thinks that in tbe memorandum ,». « f ° T, ° btained hi * Excellency's assent, he twn safeguard for the future in the matter of resigna- %° th ™ kB ho ,™ U be able t0 CBCa P e * h ° diffiro linn T V re , sultfrom a difference with his Exn,™™ m , h ? Wl!1 find himself doceived. To escape the difficulties that will inevitably follow as e result of double Government, all the safeguards ' !i° Tin C0 I ntnve ' wUI be utterly inefficient. Instead of j Uie amiculties of our position being less now than they m ° n t hs n e°. th °y are greater. I say tlio cumculties of tao whole colony are greater now than pney were then. I contend that the native difficulty is, at the present time, in a more complicated state : that the position of affairs is more serious and moro menacing than it was three months ago. (Hoar, near.; Ihere is a greater necessity for united action: rZ°al ha 'l d ta >' e , tho , ru!o - My hon. friend proposed to get rid of tho difficulty by sending away the troops, and raising colonial forces. This project is not so clearly hinted at in these amended resolutions as it was in the first; but that substantially is the meaning which we are able to collect from the hon. gentleman s declarations. I say that such a proposition 13 a financial impossibility. I say it is impossible m another point of view. Even if my hon. friend could get rid of tho Imperial troops to-morrow, and could succeed in raising a colonial army, does any hon. member believe that tho Imperial Government would allow us to use the colonial forces as we pleased ? Would tho Imperial Government allow Ministers to declare peace or war at pleasuro? Would it not exercise—if not a positive, at least a negative power in affairs ? Even if tho proposal of ■Ministers could be carried out, they would not then get rid of Imperial interference. There is a party in itngland, few in number it may be, but sufficiently active to bring to bear a pressure upon the Secretary of State for the colonies ; and powerful enough to bring about _ the same interference which was resorted to in order to thwart tho policy of this House, and the policy which the late Ministers had ou ' a ' mos ' to complete success. That party will be active again if my hon. friend shall put his lorces in motion to carry out a project not approved of by this party. He will find that on tho eve of victory, victory will he snatched from him. I sav that the pi oposal to send away troops is fraught with the greatest dangers. Tho very discussion of such a proposal in this House—tho very fact of placing such a subject on tho notice paper of this House, has been productive of the most serious evils in this Northern island. The fact is known far and wide amongst the Natives; it has already rendered the prospect ofasatislactory peace with them more remote than itwasmonths ago. I say that the discussion of this question has produced tho greatest evil already, and if carried out, it will be productive—not of senous consequences merely — but of ruin and disaster to the whole outlying European population in the Northern Island. (Hear, hear, hear.) My hon. friend used the strongest words he could use to depict the difficulty and the danger we would be placed in if the troops were withdrawn; but his words failed to impress me with any stronger feeling than I had already felt in anticipation of the great Qisaster which was about to fall upon the country if my hon. friend should have power to carry out his j reposition. It would seem as if the hon. gentleman now shrinks iroin the propositions which wero originally laid down. Hon gentlemen, thft members from the Middle Island, when they will leave this place, will retire to homesteads where no Native difficulty will trouble them, and where they will be removed from apprehension of attack. But they will leave behind them hundreds of homes in this Northern Island that will cease to be homes foi (he families that occupy them, if this proposal should be further entertained, and if it becomes known that the troops will positively leave this place. I have already said that the proposition of mv hon. friend is a financial impossibility Imperial troops are expensive, but they are not one half so expensive as colonial troops. We have been told that honcrable gentlemen from the Middle Island will not poy any more. Ido not think they ought to pay any more; I think they have paid handsomely and liberally, and I shall always say so. I thank the Middle Island members for what they have done. But, sir, Igo further, and say that Ido not think they can pay any more; I do not think the colony of New Zealand can pay any more consistently with other objects. The revenue and expenditure, we have heard from the honorable the Colonial Treasurer, are about equal. There is no balance; while we have a large debt—a debt of ahout two millions sterling. I accept the figures of the hon. gentleman the Colonial Treasurer. The interest on this sum will 6Weep away the threeeights from the provinces ; therefore it is as clear as possible that if the Middle Island will pay no more and we have to pay the interest of this money, which we have borrowed, we shall have no money to pay for colonial forces. I do not see how hon. gentlemen can escape from that proposition. I maintain that we have no escape from these consequences. My hon. friend the member for Eranklyn, by his amendments suggests that this northern part of the colony 6hould be separated from the BOuthern part, and the Imperial Government ought to be asked to undertake the burden of native affairs. lam told that I shall be charged with inconsistency in advocating these views. There is no inconsistency whatever in the views which I adopt. An Hox. Meitbee : No, no! Mr. Kussijll : My hon. friend the member for Omata (Mr. J. O. Richmond) says " No." I say, sir, that the late Government took office believing that the colony had obtained from the Homo Government full responsibility in native afl'airs. We believed, sir, that the boon conferred by the despatch of the Duke of Newcastle, and accepted by the colony, was a reality and not a Bliam ; that the Home Go-

■veminent really meant to allow us to govern Now Zealand in native as "well as in European' affairs. Acting on this belief, we exercised the power energetically and promptly, and our measures were attended with success. It was only when Imperial interference came that we failed. The position we held was this: "Wo believed that the representative of Her Majesty was assuming a power that he had no right to assume; we objected tohis taking that power. The Secretary of Slate for the Colonies now upholds the Governor in the exer-

cise of the power ho assumed ; and we see that the IzAperial. Government have not given us what we thought we had—that, in fact, they have withdrawn what the Duke of Newcastle gave; if they really intend that the Governor should continue to exercise that power, I accept the position; and say that raiher than have this double Government, that the Imperial Government should have the whole control of affairs. I therefore repeat that I accept that position, anil ask for separation as a necessity. (Cheers.) I will say one word more to the members of the Middle Island in reference to this question.

it | is simply this, that neither they, nor the members of the present Government, nor even the country itself appear to appreciate the gravity of the present position—the gravity of our financial position and our political exigencies. "With a decreasing revenue—-with three-eighths of the provinces absorbed, as I maintain they are absorbed, with provincial loans not negotiated, I maintain that to save the Middle Island from financial difficulty and embarrassment such a step as this is necessary, and that immediately. If the Native question is left as a legacy to the Middle Island with an amount of expenditure which nobody can ascertain or fix, how is Southland going to escape from the difficulty of its position. What price will Otago bonds bring in the London market when it is known that the native question is still unadjusted and as remote from adjustment as ever. I say again, and I make tlie prediction advisedly, that to escape from these consequences some such solution of the question as is now proposed is absolutely necessary. It is a bitter necessity for us of the .Northern Island to have to ask for separation. If the Middlo Island will not pay any more or cannot pay any more, we of tho North must submit to increased taxation. Wo must accept the position, and in order to Bave ourselves from utter, ruin we must give up part of what wo have for the common good. I therefore feel it my duty in - the presence of an imminent danger to support the proposition of the lie n. member from Franklyn, as tho only solution of the grave and complicated question before us, and the only means by which future calamity may be averted. (Cheers.) Mr. Oaeleton said that the hon. gentleman on tlio Ministerial benches had been found fault with, lor having modified their resolutions. It was said they wore

in a false position, and that tlioy had acted inconsistently. He congratulated tliem on the course they had taken. Ho believed they were bound in duty to have taken that course. He believed the mistake that had been committed originated in the circumstance that the lion, gentleman at the head of fcho Executive came up here fresh and Full blown with Middlo Island ideas, knowing indeed that great changes had taken place in tho North, hut not knowing these charges were of iuch a character as to make his resolutions entirely .napplicable to tho present condition of circumstances. So had that knowledge of tho hon. gentleman, that .vhen he came to perceive that his resolutions were napplicable, ho himself would bo tho first to come orward and confess his mistake. The hon. gentlonan did not appear to see it yet. Ho (Mr. Carloton) )elieved tho hon. gentleman at the head of tho Go•ornmenfc to bo top of everything that was honorable, traightforward, and chivalrous. The hon. gentlenan, no doubt, thought that the proposal for withlrawing the troops was inextricably locked up with a lesiro to obtain complcto Responsible Government on ■U subjects. He meant to say that, however trongly they might feel on that subject, they mght to consider what would be the impression reated by these proceedings in England. He warned ho House that they would be set down as wild and inciful objects. Ho thought that the material necesity of tho colony should first have been considered, nd then action might be taken upon what in some espect might be described as the fancy franchises ike the fancy franchises of Mr. Disraeli. They were lot talking on this occasion mwely to their own icople—thoy wore rather stating the caso for corisileration of English statesmen. The truo ground to Love heen taken was that tho financial liabilities of he country should not be increased. The original esolutions were perhaps too peremptory—too imlerious altogether. There was no need to challenge ho Homo Government. If it was to bo done let hem do it on their own responsibility. He believed hey would have thought twico before doing it. On rhat grounds could the colony dare them to do it ? t had been Baid that tho colonists had been able to ake care of themselves, that they might brave the ! lomo Government to move away the troops. What rould follow ? The settlers would have to rise in heir defence, and then would come a war of externination. There would be murders and masacres no doubt, but the weakest must go to tho wall it last. Putting this beforo the Home Government, ic did not think they would attempt to move tho roops. Put them at defiance, and what would folow ? They would suspend their Constitution and uake peace with the Natives, and perhaps leave two egiments behind to hinder the settlers from fighting vith the Natives. The better course seemed to be to ell the Home Government the financial state of the jolony, and leave with them the responsibility and a earful responsibility it was. Were the colonists to irm in their own defence it would become intercenivc var or peace at any price. There had never been a jeace party in this colony. Even the Missionaries hemselves had not supported a peace at any price Policy. There might be a legal point as to whether ovying war by tho Natives was against the Queen, or n the interest of a private cause. Tho House would jardon him as he was not making a set speech with paragraphs arranged in order. The hon. gentleman ivho moved the amendment had fallen into the same ;rror as hon. gentlemen opposite, having based this ?ause on the necessity of. getting rid of double Government. He would remind the House what occurred aboutdouble Government in 1862. He was himself one of the most strenuous objectors to tho accep:ance of responsibility in Native matters, which he •aw would lead to tho difficulties which had since

arisen. He had in a letter, litcra scripta manu, that real responsibility could not be obtained. It

was said that the responsibility they had obtained was to be a ioint responsibility. It appealed rather to be a divided responsibility, for the Governor was responsible to (he Home Secretary, and the minister ivaa responsible to that House. He pointed out the fact that under such divided responsibility the Governor would get all tho credit, and the Ministers all the blame. He warned hon. gentlemen that if they went in with the present Governor, they would not get tho best of it, and so far as it appeared in the memoranda, they had not got the best of it. He asked Mr. Fox whether the ministerial memoranda of 1556 was altered, whether everything was put down in black and white, whether they had retained the right of looking over all dispatches before they went Home, whether • there would be secret confidential despatches. He looked upon these notes as a prediction of what had since taken place. The hon. gentleman had said that there was no choicer but to accept the Duke of Newcastle's arrangement. The responsibility was therein thrust on the Government supposing they had absolutely refused to give any advice whatever, what was to force them. They might take a horse to the water, but could they make him drink ? He (Mr. Carleton) was in Engand when the news arrived of the acceptance of this responsibility. He knew what would be the result. Ministers there would put a different construction upon (lie nature and aspect of their powers from what would be placed upon them by the Colonial Office. With regard to Mr. Cardwell's despatch, he had certainly felt astonishment when ho heard of it, nd ho predicted that Ministers would be out of office soon after it was received in the colony. That prediction was fulfilled. He had taken opportunities of communicating to the Times information aB to the true state of the case, but no notice whatever was taken of such communication. He had hied another journal, the Standard, but was equally unsuccessful. He had had an interview with Mr. Cardwell, but nothing took place that would havo led to any proposal for a division of Imperial responsibility. He had informed the Secretary for the Colonies what was the opinion of the House of in 1862. He had warned the Government that if they continued in office under such circumstances, they would have to go out under very inferior terms as they had gone out upon a ground which was nothing more nor less than a quarrel with the Governor. In respect to the matter of confiscation, he thought it to bo necessary to a certain extent and that it Would be necessary to read a lesson to the natives by asserting the principle that lands were forfeited by rebellion. This conliscation, however, should be only on a limited scale. He thought that the practice of selling confiscated land for the purpose of recouping tho debt to the colony was a mistake. All such money found its way out of the colony. By putting military settlers on the land the province of Auck-

j land was a gainer. Instead of selling the land for > the purpose of paying the £3,000,000 loan by putting settlers upon it, every shilling paid to the natives found its way into the Auckland shops. The purchases vrhicli were made by settlers from natives were regarded as satisfactory by both parties. There would not be any hope for responsible government without the most perfect confidence between Ministers and Governor. The Middle Island was in a very different position from the Northern Island. There the native title happened to be first extinguished. There they had had a clear run, and they were not likely to surrender so advantageous a position. He could understand they -would not bear the expenditure that might be entailed upon them by a prolongation of tho war in the North. The interests in the two parts of the colony wore in some rospects conflicting. With regard to the amendments he presumed ho would have to votcwith the rest of the Auckland members. (A'laugh.) Ho did not, however, think that hon gentlemen opposite were in much danger of losing their seats.. The result was inevitable. Sooner or later the question of separation must have arison, and he, as well ns other hon. gentlemen, would bo obliged to yield to the forco of circumstances.

2Jr. -Bkodu; thought this was a question and an occasion upon which to be silent was in effect to be guilty of a political crime. It would be in the recollection of tho House that during the session it was stated that a certain policy was entrusted to tho Ministry, and that by the faction of tho Kepresentative of her Majesty, difficulties had been raised. It would be said in Great Britain that these difficulties wore of their own creating. Hesponsibility of Government, about which so much had been said, must be taken in conjunction with liabilities, and carried under that system. It had been forced upon them by the British constitution I'liey should recollect they were not dealing with an abstract idea —certain engagements had been entered into twelve months since, which placed the country in an extraordinary position. The results -which had been worked out, camc to this—that of all tho provinces—there were very few, if any, that were not in a stato almost of bankruptcy. As regarded tho provinces of the Middle island, their public works were stopped, and the whole development of the country had been undoubtedly checked, solely becauso they had entered into liabilities. Tho hon. gentleman had truly said that on the evening of victory, victory had been snatched from them. If they were to look at tho stale of the colony straight in tho face, and tako tho population of the islands as a taxpaying community, it would bo found that tho lia-

2 country were about £35 per head while those of Great Britain with her enormou national debt did not exceed £26 per head. Gre ;i Britain though so heavily taxed stood in respect t< her liability at 20 per cent, less than this colony wa committed to. Great Britain, for which she term: purposes of Imperial interests, insists on the contro of the, ISative race. If we had them we would con aider them as enemies not to be dealt with by lawi which they did not understand. The history of this control disclosed not an uniform system, but a sys. 1 v? j u IW from beginning to end. Various means had been taken by sops and what was called a flour and augar policy to bribe the Natives into sub.mission to authority—a means which only gaTe them jin idea for contempt of authority. It was expected ;of the Government to bring these Natives -within the ,pa 6cf cu'ihzation. It was said they were the subjects oi Her Majesty, and under this alternating system they were growing bolder and desirous of driving Pukeha into the sea. He was aware that there were some hon. gentlemen in the House whose connection with the Maoris had changed their nature altogether—indeed in one instance an hon. member ■might considerhimself as a Native altogether. (Laughter.) He thought that hon. members ought to express their opinions boldly, that their words might go home, and the British Government might know what the opinion ot the representatives of the colony was He wanted to know what all this practical spurious philanthrophy was in reference to the protection of tho native race, "When he rend those debates in the House of Commons and the report of the Exeter party, he was tempted to say here they had in one portion of her Majesty's dominions a native race reclaimed by the efforts of white men and receiving tho elements of civilization ; and then he had turned his eyes to India, which was in tho highest state of civilization, and ho had asked himself what voice had been raised by Exeter Hall against the natives tliero, being blown from the mouths of cannon—not a single voice. Then he wanted to know what was the opinion of Great Britain, which could stand by and see a race united by this civilization. Why, therefore, when they were dealing with a race in aiiy way that no other race had been treated, should he not enter his protest against all those sentimental ideas which, in the long run, would be a course of destruction of tho white people here. They ou"lit, therefore to see, that if they were to take tho management of native affairs into their own hands then they ought freely to place before tho Government of Great Britain this alternative, that, if necessary, they would give up tho entire control of the native race altogether, ci ase to consider them as subjects, and trout them as if they were enemies. As regarded the resolutions which were before the House, he had not tho slightest objection to the first, but it was time to consider whether or not her Majesty's troops wore not hero for the protection of tho native race and not for the protection of the whites. He was very much struck with a remark mode 011 this subject by one of the Capo colonists. Ho said, " You will nover be able to deal with tho native race until you get rid of the soldiers ; I know what took place at tbo Cape ; and as a rule-the British soldiers are here simply for tho protection of the native race." If that were the case, it was high time they stopped endeavouring to buy over the native lace. While, therefoie, they were called upon to express their gratitude to tho mother country for her prompt assistance, at the same time he thought that it involved also the consideration whether the land and naval forces should not- be out of the country altogether. He could not agree with his hon. friend Mr. Bussell that the dark picture he drew would take place. The entire native population amounted to about 50,000. "What number of lighting men could they bring together. He could not suppose that if all tho tribes were bound together to bring a force against Auckland they could only a bring a force of about 8000 men. Where, then, was the chance of all these blazing roofs and that kind of thing alluded to by Mr. Russell ? It merely existed in the minds of a few gentlemen, whose connexion with a certain city had led them to think that it was highly desirable to haTe a certain quantity of money spent on it. It would not do at present so to be led away by tho idea that they could not face these difficulties. The thing stood to reason that a population of 20,000 could send a force of sufficient number to meet any quantity of Maoris. If he thought that he could see tho elements of a nation passing away by such a course of action, ho would be the last to advocate the removal of the troops. The next point they had to deal with was this: the so-called control upon which (lie preservation of peace is said to depend. He was sorry there was no resolution to that eireet —that if they were to carry out the policy of some member they might say that- the homo Government should have nothing to do with their dealing with the natives. Unless they said that this idea would be entertained, the home Government would say, " Ivo, you shall not do so ; and so you shall take our idea, or else there is tho alternative of withdrawing the troops." Although it was perfectly true that joint responsibility had resulted in divided councils, it had resulted

more from the interference of one tnan rather than from the impossibility of carrying out the idea of joint responsibility. When the ideas of that House reached her Majesty's Government that effect should be borne in mind. There could be 110 doubt that

heavy expenditure had been entailed ; but, whoever was to blame, let the burden be laid on the proper shoulders. He thought that those hon. gentlemen who discuss the matter should stato explicitly what they thought on tlio matter. He trusted that that debate would not be brought to a close without a decided expression of opinion from those gentlemen who had been long in the colony, and whose knowledge of the public atlairs led them to think them worthy of being listened to. Their judgment would not be misled by any reference to such subjects as that mentioned by the hon. member Mr. Carleton. The

present war was never of our seeking; it was an attempt on the part of an imperial authority to exert, itself. They ought to put that authority down at once and for ever. It was desirable that on the consideration of that matter, they should consider their

position to the old country, and not let their minds be disturbed by any reference to old quarrels. As regarded those amendments of Mr. Graham's, lie thought it highly desirable that the colonj should be divided ; but that resolution contemplated the destruction of the former resolution. (No, no, and hear, hear.) He must say that they implied the negation of tho other resolutions. Sympathising as he did witli the Auckland members on that occasion, and seeing that the two islands should be seporated, yet he voted for this to see if they could not face the difficulties.

Mr. Colenso said: Believing that they were approaching the tixno when a division would be taken on that point, he considered it a duty that he owed to himself and to his constituents to express his feeling on the matter. He had hitherto hesitated to do so, for he had been in doubt as to which side lie should take. Ho, therefore, had given himself the longest possiblo time. Ho had sat patiently to hear all that was to bo said on both sides before he spoke on the subject. As to tho importance of tho subject there could be no doubt on that; every member of tho House was alive to its importance. He might be ullowed to say, with the'indulgence of tho House, than when ho received the summons to attend tho session; and when he heard that, in the formation of a new Ministry, the hon. member for Cheviot might be in that Ministry ho for one agreed inwliatwasthepublic hopo, as expressed in the daily papers. He would bo very sorry not to support that Ministiy. Ho believed that, looking back on the divisions which had taken place in that House, he had invariably supported the Ministry, although on some questions lie had strained his consciencc a point or two to do so. H& trusted the Houso would pardon him if he said there was no ono whom he would more confidently •support than tho hon. gentleman at tho head of tho Ministry: But his conlidenco was shaken when he heard the address which His Excellency read to them; and when ho saw those resolutions brought down to tho House which, had led to theso amendments. Ho had hoped that tho matter of removing the seat of Government had been settled last session There was no occasion to have put it in tho address. The Government were empowered last session to do everything they were doing thii session without coming to that House again. Money was placed a their disposal. He mentioned this, because it was from that his wavering commenced. Whilst sitting there ho had heard some strong statements of some of them, which he had boen sorry to hear. The hon. gentleman (the member for the Bay of Islands) used a word twice. He spoko of property being restored, for it was stolen. Such words as those went far and wide among the native population, and went like snowballs, gathering as they went. And that it should be said by any hon. gentleman that fiat property was stolen property, and that he approved of its restitution, for such an assertion to be made and unobjected to, hc'could not bring his mind to. He only wished that it was in accordance with the rules of tho Houso to have dared tho hon. gentleman to

, produce any -of that property. He could not ' holp thinking that there was a time when ; -hat honorable gentleman both spoke and wrote ' UinorentJy, and there were manyof his writings which i would go so far to show that his opinions a few i J'cars ago were vary different to what they were now. When the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government came down with his resolutions he was inclined to go with him, but on consideration, knowing what it was to live among Natives, he came to the conelu"'at it would not be safe or wise. The position oi oir George Grey was not that of a common Governor. Ihe present Governor had been sent to tliis country from among all the Governors in Great -Britain to settle the difficulty which was not yet if /u ? e Wll3 told off particularly for that service, 'ile (air. Colenso) bore that in-mind in looking at that He recollected when in Auckland hearing that Sir Gore Grey had arrived, and also what was supposed at the time, and that was that ho came to suspend the Constitution Act. This was the "I?™ 0! 1 both in the House and out of the House. Had his Excellency come with powers to suspend the Constitution Act it was very likely that these present t difficulties with the Ifatives would never hove taken place. He might be permitted to allude to what had taken place at Hawke's Bay at the time of the outbreak at Taranaki. The Provincial Council was sitting then, and a resolution was being passed thanking Governor Gore Brown for what he had done. 'He recollected tlicixi saying if lie were a General of the troops, and any man interfered with him and his S%ork he "would hang him on the nearest tree. Uixl .that been done this "war "would have been over long ago. (Hear.) He did not. know whether certain hon. members who were connected with certain papers had not increased those difficulties* "When he had seen certain papers he had said " is.not this treason," if not exactly treason it was something like petty .treason. He had almost wished at such times knowing the weight sueli papers had on the Native mind, that they had the control of that blessed machine the press, entirely same as it was in France. It might be fi great and good invention, but more often in this country it was an infernal machine. (Hear, hear.) He would support the lesolution brought down by the Ministry, and would also support the amendment of Mr. Graham. They had heard several times , during the present short session a statement to the following effect, which had been said over aud over again, until they knew it by heart, that the Middle Island had paid enough already, and would pay no longer, and so far he thought they were right, aud therefore ifitwereso by supporting theamendmentbroughtin by the hon. member for Franklyn, they were takinga .stepin the right direction. Byvoting for both t}ie resolutions and the amendments, he thought he would be able to fix the responsibility on one pereon. He would support the amendment, but hon. Igentlcmen would bear in mind that he had always .deprecated a divided colony. He would rather eonsent to anything but that, and therefore he proposed a eliglit amendment on the amendment. Thut in jthe present circumstance of the colony, it is expedient 'as a temporary measure that Ko. 3 should be divided into two separate Governments. That the Middle dsland should have a constitutional Government, administered on the principle of Ministrial Besponsibility. That the Northern Government should have such a constitution as will enable the Imperial Government to exercise such control over the management of native affairs as will enable lier Mnjestv'a Government to take such measures as it mav deem necessary to suppress the present rebellion,

and provide safeguards against rebellion for the iuture. That when the management of native atlairs shall cease to form a special difficulty— the two Governments be reunited as one Government, to be established in the locality which shall he most convenient to the members of the Legislature, and for the general interests of the colony at large. The JSpeaxeh ruled that the amendment was inadmissable. The only course for the lion, gentleman to do was to negative the former amendment of the lion, gentleman Mr. Graham, and then his amendment could be put. Mr. Colenzo therefore withdrew his amendment. Mr. Readek Wood regretted that no member of the Government had risen to state their views on the very important question brought before the House bv the lion, member for Franklyn. He thought that ail would admit that affairs at theprt-sent issue had arrived at such a point that was necessary that something should be done—that it was impossible for them to go on any longer as they had been for the last few months; that it was impossible for them to ask lion, members to hold oflice if everything that they did in the House, and every attempt they made was liable to bo thwarted in matters of detail; neither could the colony afford the enormous expense that it had been put in by the delay that had boon experienced in the settlement of that question. He thought it must be clear to the minds of every hon. Member of the House that if his Excellency had been pleased to allow the military settlers to be located on their land in Slay last, according to the wish of the military authorities in May last, it would have been a saving of £300,000 to the colony. And it was equally clear that it was impossible for the colony to go on spending such sums for any great length of time longer. In supporting the resolution he by no means said that that form of Government would be at all best lor this part of the colony. He the ught the best course that could be followed would be for the House to co-operate cordially with liis Excellency in carrying out the policy agreed to list session. The late Government understood that by the assent his Excellency gave to the measures passed in that House, that he accepted them ex animo, and that he would assist them and they would assist him in carrying those measures into operation, and he was in hopes that when his Excellency's speech was delivered, that there might be a probability that this statement of co-operation might be carried out. He was glad to see there that his Excellency stated that

he would take steps to have the settlers located without unnecessary delay ; but he found that it had been abandoned. In that speech which the Colonial Treasurer delivered the other nis;ht, iu which he went minutely into every detail of tho colonial funds, he told them that the present rate of expenditure for the colonial forces was £45,000 per mouth, and that this expenditure could not be reduced for the next seven months. If these settlers had been located 011 their land this expenditure might cease in six weeks. These would be no dilliculty whatever, if sufficient amount of land were confiscated this day, to locate the larger portion of these men in six weeks, and reduce that £45,000 to £15,000. "When his hon. friend referred to the assets of the colony, he referred to the ordinary resources of the revenue, and also to the loan ; but if this view were to be carried out im-

mediately, and if the colony was to be reimbursed by the sale of the land, he would find no dilliculty by monthly sales to the extent of £20,000 or £30,000

per mouth. With the reduction of expenditure on one side, and the increase of assets on the other, he could not see how the hon. gentleman could not find funds. He had always said the sale of those lands had been a source, and a very large source to which the enormous expenditure that they had been subject to could be tacked, aud he should not like to see any policy which would go against that confiscation. (Hear, hear, from the Ministry.) He presumed that tho honorable gentleman knew what he was speaking about the other afternoon. He went into considerable detail, and must- have gone into very deep research, and he could not understand whether he regarded tho sale of these lands as an available asset. They had heard a great deal said about the maintenance of troop 3 in the colony. He thought himself that it was unnecessaiy lor some tiino to come —to do altogether without Her Majesty's troops. He thought they could do with much less than 10,000 troops. They had a Waikato Militia located, and a very small number of troops would be found quite sufficient to keep tho country in order —and instead of having 10,000, there was no necessity for more than oUOO- or -IUOO, and alter that time they might do without troops at all. With regard to tho imperial demands for payment, tho hon. gentleman had told them that it was impossible to pay for them, but that it was necessary to find funds for the Panama contract, and for the removal of the seat of Government. The money for these troops should bo got from tho land tiiat was confiscated. I'hero was an act passed for the purpose —this House had agreed to it, His Excellency had agreed to it, and Tier Majesty's Government had agreed to it. (No, no, and hear, hear). Mr. Curd well stated that it was a reasonable thing that the colony should have the lands, and that it should reimburse itself to a reasonable extent for the expenses of the war. Air. Voar.L : Hero is the dispatch. Mr. It. Wood : The alternative was if the Government did not carry it out in accordance with the instructions of Mi'. Card well, lie r Majesty's Government would not assist them. (Here thodion. gentleman read a portion of tho dispatch). They should merely regard that dispatch as a temporary measure to meet a temporary emergency. That, lie thought, was the view of iler Majesty's Government. Thero was not tho slightest diiliculty in at'onec confiscating

a sufficient amount of land to relieve this country, from the enormous expense that was now going on monthly, and he could not regard it in any other light than as something approaching to that principle hy my hon. friend not referring to it in his financial statement. He did not believe that the peace of the colony- could be maintained if the troops were at onco withdrawn. The hon. gentleman had told them in his first resolution that he would request Her Majesty's Government to withdraw the troops, and now he had sent down another set of resolutions which did not mention that; but he had stated in the House that he_ would still advise the Governor to request Her Majesty's Government to withdraw the troops. A majority of the House would not support his first: resolution, although a large majority would support the second resolution. He would like to know too what kind of a constitution they wanted for tho Middle Island. This would take a good deal of timO and a good deal of enquiry. But it was right to understand that a financial adjustment was necessary. They were not surely asked to vote for a resolution of that kind blindly, and say nothing about a financial adjustment. Mr. Reyxou>3 said it appeared to him that in the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Frankly merely asking the House to abandon the principle which had been framed for the removal of the seat of Government, in supporting them the House would be virtually doing so, because it would leave it to be settled at an indefinite period. The members for Auckland found that the House hnd taken up tho question of the seat of Government, and that it was to be removed, and then they came forward and said we now go in for entire separation. He conld not believe that Auckland was sincere in her wisli for separation. He stated that here because it was possible he might have to state it to his constituents, and he would not like to state down there what he would not state to the face of the lion, gentlemen here. Tho amendment went on to state that after a time tho colonies could be re-united. Nov, that would be an impossibility. When once separation took place union could not take place apain. He would like to know whether Taranaki or Hawke's Bay would liko

to be tacked on to Auckland. If he belonged to onb of those places he would rather be tacked on to

Southland or Stewart's Island than to Auckland. Such selfishness with regard fo legislation had been shewn by Auckland members that he would not like to trust them. But in case of this resolution'being parsed, he would ask the hon. members for Auckland if (hey were willing to accede to the immediate removal of the seat of .Government until such time aa the will of her Majesty's Government was knotvn ; for if so, some members for the Middle Island might bo inclined to support that resolution. (Hear, hear.) Ho trusted that, one of the hon. members for Auckland would inform the House whether they agreed to that.

ilr. J. O'Nexix, might ho permitted to correct the hon. gentleman. The Auckland members believed in separation last session, for they formed themselves into a compact, and made a lot of resolutions on the subject.

Mr. Reynolds explained that it was of the early part of the session he spoke. Mr. O'JfEiXL said the hon. gentleman was altogether fit sea on the subject. Every adult male in Auckland was inclined to sign a document to that purpose, while those of tho South were not. It was only right tli.it the hon. gentlemen from tho South should carry home to their constituents tho chaneo there was for them to release themselves from tho expenses of the Northern Island. He thought they would require another £3000,000 to finish the war. It was the interest of the Middle Island to take separation when it was offered to them.

Mr. Richmond said : The view he took on that question was one simply and naturally a practical view of what would bo the immediate results of the niotion. He would wish to say in one or two words what his idea of Responsible Government was. There had been much wild talking on that subject. It appeared to him that the proper office of the Gevernment was that of a veto. His Excellency had I used that power, and was absolved from all blame; I and whatever blame might arise devolved upon hon. gentlemen had held office at the head of the Governi nient. But what would he the result if they passed the resolution ? Would it bring about the state of affairs they might desire—would it sot aside tho double Government ? It seemed to him that the amendment would not set aside the double Government. It would weaken the hands of his hon. friend the member for Pranklyn. The whole of the question, of the ultimate result was entirely in the clouds. There were two ways of looking at the question. There was tho sentimental party who would take one view. They would place the Maori race under the protection of Sir George Grey. "Whether he was a tender protector or not he could not say. On the other hand, there was tho party of great importance at home, a party which was influential in print at all events wh'ch would take a different view of the question. This matter must bo one of legislation. It' must be an Imperial act. There was another point to which he would draw the attention of the Southern members. The Northern members did not intend to have a separation without a financial adjustment. Tho Home Government, too, woidd not be able to discover the great natural division which separated the two islands. Cook's straits was a fine line to those who were accustomed to look at and govern the entire world. "When he heard the proposition of his hon. friend that 4000 troops would be sufficient, he remembered that there were such provinces as Taranaki, and he asked were these troops brought hero

for the defence of Auckland alone. If so, that -was not the idea of the whole colony. The question -was. should they or should they not leave the government of the colony in the hands of gentlemen who had not been able to carry out the Native Settlements' ActHe would support the'amendment of the hon. member for l'ranklyn. Mr. Gillies said he regretted that the hon. member for Oniata should have so far forgotten his usual habit as to speak rather of principles than of probable consequences, and was surprised to hear him repeating and disavowing in ono breath the slanders and attacks of the late ministry. He (Mr. Gillies) could not accept the apologies of men who repeated slanders nnd professed to disbelieve them. Xlie members of the late Ministry were there to answer for themselves, and were not afraid to do so, although they had not been up to that time willing to take notice of every covert shot or inuendo which had been levelled' at them, nor did he think they would even then take them up, for he believed the House would not, as a, whole, endorse those insinuations, but that they would admit that the h'.te Ministry had done their duty, if not successfully, at least honestly, and in a manner that would have been successful had they not been frustrated by his Excellency. He (Mr. Gillies) was not surprised to hear the hon. member for Hunedin (Mr. Keyiiolds) take the course he did in trying to import into his question the consideration of what their constituents would say of them. Ho (Mr. Keynolds) evidently had a_,wholesomo remembrance of what thej' said of him. last session on the questions of separation and the removal of the seat of Government. He now endeavoured tp vindicato himself by attacking the sincerity of the Auckland members. Whatever might be the variety of opinions, he (Mr. Gillies) trusted everyone would give to another credit for that sincerity which he claimed for himself. Ko one was free from the risk of being mistaken in his ideas and belief; but their sincerity ought to be unchallenged. 'With respect to the resolutions, he felt the House had nothing to do with consequences in this matter. (Hear, hear, and a laugh from the member lor fillesmere.) He (Mr. Giliits) had heard tlio member for Ellesmcre say, with his usual eloquence, that they ought to take the faith of principle instead of expediency which amounted to the same thing. Xo ono could predicate with certainty what the precise results of any action might be; but if they acted on principles, instead of being teirilied by possible residts, they inertly asked what was right or wron". He (Mr. Gillies) had no admiration whatever for the despatch of Mr. Cardwell, which had been put into their hands, in which lie sneered at their abstract arguments on Responsible Government, as the time was unfit for it. That question lay at the root of their troubles, and, upon the settlement of it, depended the prosperity or adversity of the colony! On first reading the original resolutions, ho had disliked theni, not as many did, on account of the proposal towithdraw tlve troops, but on account of tho recognition ol the right of the homo Government to continue divided responsibility in Native aifairs. With respect to tho withdrawal ot tho troop-s, although 'he was a Southern member, ho could not bo accused of gaining his ideas at a Canterbury meeting; but he had had greater opportunity of seeing the working of affairs in this Northern Island, nnd in his judgment there would bono danger whatever. It had. been said bv a previous speaker, ■' you are going to your home iu the southern Island; you have no,r:s!;, but you leave behind you homes which may bo rained in your absence." Ho would have uo iear of staking his safety and that, of . hb family ou the withdrawal of the troops, for ho

■would never believo that with the number of settlors there were in the Northern Island, British honour, would ba tarnished in their hands. There was no plaoe where the Natives wero in greater proportion to the settlers tVmn in Taranaki—yet tho people of Taranaki could defend themselves against them, and •would drive them out, if they were permitted. (Hear, hear.) The troops were not for the purpose of conquering the Natives, but to prevent the settlers from conquering them. The vei'y presence of the troops was a standing menace to tho Natives, and tended to destroy that amicable feeling which had always existed between Natives and settlers. There had certainly been occasional quarrels between them. (Laughter.) Even in the civilized country of Groat Britain there was a larger proportion of murder than in this colony. Ho was not at all afraid that the withdrawal of the troops would endanger the Northern Island, and did mot opposo the Ministerial resolutions on that score, but they were not clear on the subject of responsibility. Tho original resolutions too recognized the right of tho Home Government, which ho could never do, to overturn tho arrangement made between the Duke of Newcastle and the Colony. "With the new resolutions, however, lie could quite agree. Tho Home Government had a right to exercise a certain control, but by veto only, not by action and opposition, and tlioy also had a right to 6ay "you shall not nsc our troops for such and such a purpose." It seemed that certain hon. members wero of opinion that when lion. Mr. Cardwell deprived the colony of responsibility, they wero to fall down at his feet and do whatever he wished in a most abject manner. When tlie Home Government had made a bargain with tlw colony it ought to he carried out, and they ought not to be sneered at by a Secretary of State, who said that they wero the right of Responsible Government, with tho addition of "enjoying" the services of a Governor. He (Mr. Gillies) did not think that they had ever " enjoyed " the services of a Governor in the colony. He would support tho resolutions as amended, and at the same time he meant to support tho additional resolutions proposed by the hon. member for Franklyn (Mr. R. Graham). It might be thought there was some inconsistency in so doing—(hear, hear) —as the hon. member for Franklyn proposed entire submission to the Imperial rule. He (Mr. Gillies) had ever beeu a separationalist, but the condition that the Northern Island waß to submit to a despotism he would never have proposed to them. It was time for the Southern Island to separate from them. He had a most bitter contempt for the man who, having once enjoyed free institutions, would submit to despotism. He would, therefore, support the resolutions. (Laughter.) As a representative of the Middle Island, he would say, "We are living nnder free institutions, and as a living body decline to be chained to a corpse." He would therefore vote as previously stated. Major Richardson said he had no hesitation in saying that if the resolutions weie not passed, it would involve their immediate retirement from office. He could not help congratulating the members of Auckland on the support they would obtain from the hon. member for Bruce (Mr. Gillies), and he trusted before he (Mr. Gillies) retired from this noble city to his constituents, they would present him with a testimonial to show how much they had approvedofhisargument, and the manner in which he had expressed it. As to his vote, it would be for the amendment, but his voice would be in favour of tho Ministeiiil resolutions. He had given his reasons for supporting them, and also the amendment, looking at it a Southern point. He (the speaker) would oppose the amendment to the last, for he would not be tho one to forge a yoke round the neck of his Northern friends, or whatever might be his political opinions, groaning under an autocratic despotism or maitial law. He had heard of a certain insect whose sting was in its tail—the sting of the amendment appeared to be in its tail; and he believed it to have been very judiciously placed there. The members for Auckland knew that the seat of Government must be removed, and then they held out this bait of separation to Otago. He knew too well the patriotism, wisdom, and good sense of the honorable members lor Otago to believe they would be influenced by it—(Cheers). He was deeply encouraged at seeing some of the rabid element of the Auckland members cheering. A bait or separation had been thrown out to Otago, and it was in expectation that it would be swallowed that this sting had been inserted in the amendment. He objected to it, for it was a temporary expedient to lull those to sleep who had tip to that time been wide-a-wake. They had longed for Responsible Government, and thought at one time they had attained it; but now the hon. members for Auckland were anxious to be placed under the tender mercies of autocratic Government and martial law. He had been accustomed to read some of tho light literature of Auckland, and had found in it most indecorous allusions to the representative of Majesty, and it was now the desire of the Auckland members to be placed under the iron heel of despotism. The amendment was truly unworthy of the notice of tlie House. The last Defence Minister paid many handsome compliments to his left hand friend (the Colonial Treasurer) in order that he might take the opportunity afterwards of hitting him very hard by noticing what he called the delusions he was labouring under He only hoped all of them had such delusions. The present Government had obtained promises from Bis Excellency which the late Ministry could not. It was not for thtm to calculate how far they might be realized, but merely Jto know that they had been given in good faith. The future would show how far they would be realized. As to the financial position of the country, there was no one more capable of realizing it than those who occupied that bench. Even if the Southern Island were willing, it could not pay for tho war, and yet they have been told that the Northern Island was going to be taxed. Mr. Russell objected. It had been said that the wild enthusiasm of the Southern members had hurled the Northern Island headlong into war, a thing most untrue. He could not pass on without alluding to the impression "tacked on" of Mr. J. O'Neill, who said the Southern Island was " tacked on" to the Northern. The Imperial Government could not set aside the treaty of Waitangi without the consent of the natives. With regard to the war, governor Sir G. Brown considered it necessary, and Sir George Grey considered that the honour of Britain demanded its continuance. They demanded Ministerial responsibility. They had employed a large number of troops at great cost, &c., so as to cause in the South a temporary paralysis. He thought the expenditure must be reduced. When the Home Government found the colony a burden then they first talked of responsibility. (The hon. gentleman expressed the same views on this subject as the hon. Mr. Weld. J With regard to the withdrawal of the troops he would have reason to blush for liia countrymen if it could possibly be attended with danger. They ought to reward and encourage loyal natives, and by a proper course of conduct he was sure an end would soon be pnt to the present miserable and lamentable rebellion. (Cheers.)

* The Hon. Colonel Haultaln - thought the hon. member for Bruce, had very much mistaken the feelings of the members for Auckland, when he said they were desirous of governing themselves, The real fact was that by action of the ministers thsiy had been precluded from the councils of the House, 'rhey did not wish the despotism of the South —but rather preferred their own despotism—when ho first heard that the head of the Ministry had advised change of seat of Government, ho congatulated Auckland that they should have at their head a man from whom justice could be expected. He believed in the upright and honest intentions of the Government, but he must admit that he had not now that confidence in them he once had. Was it not most surprising that even up the present time the House had not received the slightest intimation of the intended policy of the Government. When the session had commenced the hon. gentlemen at the head of the Government had promised that in two or three days he would be prepared distinctly to state what measures the Government intended to take. Ho (Col. Haultain) had certainly expected something far more comprehensive and complete than tho | head of Government had given to the House. l'hat hon. gentleman had offered hut a few and most incomplete remarks. Should he not have said something relative to those grave and weighty propositions which at that very time were belore his Excellency the Governor, for consideration. But those propositions had been totally untouched on and in bringing forward the proposition as to tho removal of the troops from tho colony, should not the hon. gentlem»n havo been more definite as to what troops, and from what particular place or places. And should he not have mentioned how tho substitutes for those troops, when removed, were to be raised, and how paid. And he (Colonel Haultain) also expected, when tho hon. gentleman at the head of the. Government intimated that it was intended to proceed to make the road from Taranala to Wanganui, he would have entered into particulars respecting tho person who was to undertake to make that road, and as to how the funds wero to bo raised for defraying the cost of it. But on this subject also no

explanation whatever had been given, and it was on account of this great want of explanation that tho conclusion was arrived, at that the Government lind not inade up thnir minds us to their procedure. Ho (Colonel Haultain), for tho reasonß above stated, could not have that confidence in and reliance on the Government which ho at first enjoyed and indulged in. Ho considered it most desirable that Auckland should bo separated from tlie rest of tho colony, and should govern herself. The hon. Mr. Jollie said ho had not differed from tho resolutions as they originally stood, nor from the views of thu gentlemen who had moved them, but ho had thought there was something objectionable in their phraseology, and they were somowliat imperfect and cnlculatod as tliey were then worded to bo injurious rather than beneficial. Be thought that tho rn-olntions now prop'osed had superseded the former ones, and lie could now freely vote for them. They fully admitted that the hon. gentleman at tlie lifful of tho Government was endeavouring to carry out the views ho had set before tho House. The policy as proposed by these resolutions may bo safely relied on. Talce it with all risks and it would answer. He was ono of a few last session who had given a qualified assent to a proposed sclicmo by wliicli the rebellion was to be met. But that scheme was certainly a large and undefined one —and our financial position wasthen very critical. Hb wanted our engagements to bo limited, wliile the principle of confiscation was in abeyance. He thought those resolutions were not in a position to be considered. He certainly did not expect under all the circumstances, and looking at the papers before the House, that after the Royal assent had been given to their measures tlic difficulties which had afterwards arisen to thwart tho carrying out of that policy which had been agreed on, would have presented themselves. He did not ask who was at fault in this matter. He threw out no charges, but he must say some one had been most irregularly at fault. Ho was astonished liow tho great difficulty had come about, when he reviewed in his mind those of the late Ministry who had been entrusted with so importantaquestion involviugtheroputation oftliecountry. Tho colonv might now bo considered as almost financially bankrupt andincapacitated. And in referring to those difficulties which had arisen to stop tlie carrying out of their intended measures, he was sure tliey did not arise in any part from tho Imperial Government. [The hon. gentleman here referred to the despatches received from Mr. Cardwell from England relative to the matters in question.] The despatches ■nliicli he had before him, he stated, did not in any degree interfere with or throw any obstacles in the way of the Governor or Ministers in respect of the measures proposed by them. There might be somo question as to the cession of lands If there should even have been an appearanec of cession, it would have been most incomplete, and must have been followed by confiscation and forfeiture. Taranaki was in itself a sufficient example of the insufficiency of cession. Cession purported to be a voluntary act, and yet it would in fact have had to bo enforced as a compulsory means of peace. As to the real position of the colony he expressed his belief that the late Government might have been led by circumstances into certain matters to bo regretted; but leaving that question he would shortly refer to the position of the country, He himself had never been a stout advocate for Responsible Government in respect of native affairs. When the hon. gentleman who was then at the head of the Government proposed it last year, he (Colonel Haultain) had entered his protest against it, looking upon the proposition as a perfect farce, and, if carried, he considered it as a perfect nullity for all practical purposes. It had been tried to be worked, but had already broken down. He alluded in particular to tho escape of the Maori prisoners ; and he would assuro hon. members that they lind hardlj' realized the full consequences of it. They might, perhaps, have laughed at it, but ho for one did not consider tliematter a laughable one. And then their financial afFaira were in the very greatest confusion. In that debate no reference whatever had been made to one act of the Home Government, namely, the guarantee for £1,000,000 loan. He was of opinion that the House should make some distinct reference to that matter, and by a series of resolutions ward off all complaint. The cemplcte neglect of the Province of Taranaki ought to be one of the first matters for the serious attention of Government. That Province ought to have her due, and lie trusted it would have received prosperity and regeneration. Another eircumstnnce also lie glanced at, shewing their unfortunate position after all the military work had been performed. He referred to the proclamation of amnesty before tho closing of the war. And, so far as he could see, the natives as yet showed 110 signs whatever of peace. Another singular position in whieli the colony was placed by tlie action of Government compelled him to speak in reference thereto. He meant their being unable to pay for troops and yet not being able to do without them. It would be for the Ministry to give its attention to this matter, and for that House to determine the matter one way or another. Tlie House had become suddenly perplexed, and lion, members were among themselves cnteri/ig into great discussions. Auckland was not satisfied at being at the head of the Government. He thought that question had been previously settled. That however was evidentty no the case. He could not allow himself to bo seduced by any considerations relating to any portion of Auckland—and much as ho liked to see Auckland considered, yet he was not prepared to allow tho general action of constitutional Government to bo interfered with by special action, as now proposed. He thought it was very questionable that the English Government would listen to any proposition of having the Government there divided, however much the Houso itself might desire that. He was of opinion that under the peculiar circumstances, a new Ministry, with the hon. member for Cheviot at the head, would have the support < f the House. Ho hoped it would—and that it would also have the support of tbe Government. He thought there was every prospect of seeing such a new Ministry do what their predecessors had failed to do. He hoped that if they got into office they would work well together. And he also trusted that the Government would do the best to work in concert with the Governor, and that their efforts might have a beneficial result. The Government Bhould have administrative power, but ought not in any manner to interfere with the legislature of the country, nor could the Home Government he thought sanction such interference. Mr. Fitzgerald moved that the debate be adjourned till 8 o'clock in the evening, on resumption of the House. DILLS. The bill to amend the Coroners' Act, 1858, was re.'id a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day. The bill to amend the Auckland Reserves Act, 1858, was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time this day. An act to validate certain acts done by the Registrar of Otago was read a first time, and was ordered to lie read a second time this day. AD.rOTJBNED DEBATE OK THE SEW ZEALAND SETTLEMENTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Major Richmond said that certain lands that wero ceded did not come within the operation of the act. Lands acquired by confiscation and purchase, howover, did. Ho would really like to know what was the real meaning and construction of the bill. Mr. Buodie said that tho matters included in' tho act involved a deal of argument. The House was asked to do that which, in his opinion, was making " confusion^ worse confounded." A very great question was raised in considering what land was really to oomo within the meaning of " lands to bo confis"catod. He really did not see why tho words had been insarted therein " Governor in Council to bo satisfied therewith." It was a shame that tho House could not solely deal with the matter ; the act itself was a faroe. Bill read a second time, and ordered to bo considered in committee. COMMITTEE ON,THE JIIIL. Clauao I.—Short title of bill read and passed. Clause 2.—Compensation for land. Mr. Colenso did not object to the whole of tho Act, but he could not agreo with the clause just read. That clause in his opinion was not wanted. As everything was to bo done with tlie consent and by the direction of tho Governor, there could be no nr-cossity for providing a particular manner for compensation for lands. And besides tho " New Zealand Settlements Act" had already provided for all masters of compensation. He moved, therefore, that the clause be struck out.

Mr. Fitzileebebt wished to call attention of hon. members to the wording of the clause, namely, "Governor in Council" to bo satisfied, &c., and therefore the Governor could not act alone, lior act otherwise than under the advice and consent of Coujjcil.

Mr. Beodie tUouglit that "in Council" really men nt nothing. The Governor could, were the clause to pass, do whatever he liked.

SfCr. Williamson did not oppose the clause, but ho nvishod to suggest ta the members of tho Govern-

ment that certain persons ought to be indemnified who had been injured in past transactions, in ignorauco of tlic law about to be passed.

Mr. Vogei- lind no opposition to the bill, but he desired to intimate to tho Government a caution as to whether tlicy wore providing in the bill sufficient safeguard for themselves. Certain engagements depended upon the passing of tho bill, and unless the amendment wero passed, tho original bill itself would be disallowed by tho Home Government. The suggestion he had made wero mßdo in a friendly spirit , and for tho Government to look to their own protection. Mr. Weij) thanked tho hon. gentleman (Mr. Vogel's) suggestion, but ho said it was tho opinion of tlio Attornoy-Goncral that tho hill, as now framed, would fully meet the wishes of the home Government as set forth in tho dispatches from Mr. Cardwell.

After somo remarks from Majors Richmond and Richardson, and Mr. Dillon Bell, to the effect mentioned above. Tho clause was passed. Clause three passed. Preamble passed. The bill, as amended, was passed. Tho bill was then read a third timo and passed; and tho title agreed to, to be transmitted to tho Legislative Council for their concurrence therein. WASTE LANDS ACT. Mr. Carle Ton brought up a report of tho Committco on tho Waste Lands Act in tho Provinco of Southland, which was read and ordered to be laid on the table. LANDS ROAD 1111, L.

Mr. Weld said this was a highly important bill' and ho thought the Houso had bettor not go on with the second, reading of it until after adjournment, when the hon. members might more fully consider aud argue on the merits of tho bill. He, therefore, moved that tlie Houso adjourn till 8 o'clock. Adjournment accordingly at 6 o'clock, until 8 o'clock. Upon tho re-assembling of the House, Mr. FitzGerald resumed the debate upon the admendments. Mr. Fox followed, wliowaßin turn followed by Mr. Stafford. Tho admendments were lost. Ayes 18 noes 35. The admendments in the Legislative Council were also lost. Ayes 9, noes 10. Several private Bills were advanced a stage. The Houso adjourned at a few minutes past ono o'clock.